DeMarcus Cousins

[bajaden]

I'm not making the comparison between Cousins and Monroe. I'm just making the statement that imo Cousins doesn't have the athletic ability to be a top 10% center on the defensive end in the NBA. He has the girth. He the length. But he doesn't have the quickness or the jumping ability. He can be pretty good eventually if he really puts his mind to it and works on it and gets and keeps his weight down. But if a fan is looking for the answer on the defensive end of the floor, then I think they've mistaken girth for defensive ability.

His jumping ability is about average for a guy his size. But your wrong about his quickness. He may not be the fastest runner, but he has very quick feet in the post. Its part of what made him so effective in the post. A race horse is fast, but a quarter horse is quick.

 

[hammystyle]

If Cousins is available, I believe you will be wrong. But there's a good chance he won't be there. If not, I'm not sold on Monroe. I went back and rewatched a couple of Greogetown games I had recorded, and I'm sorry, he just doesn't impress me. And I was trying real hard to be impressed. Much has been made of what kind of player Petire likes to draft. As if a player doesn't have certain qualities, he'll then be passed on by Petire.. so lets take a look at his record.

Snip...

Now I've looked at all of these picks and for the life of me I can't really say that there's a trend here. For every pick that appears to be the typical pick, there's another pick that contrary to that pick. He's picked players with bad tempers. He's picked players lacking in skills but loaded with athleticism. Or he's picked players that lacked all around skills, but were very skilled in at least one aspect of the game. If he thinks the best player available is the same one everyone else thinks is the best player available, he'll pick that player. But he's not afraid to reach for a player if he thinks that player is the better choice. He's been right more than he's been wrong, and thats to his credit. Its my contention that there is no typical Petrie pick. I think he looks at each player the same way and tests them all the same way. And at the end of the day he picks the player with the best combination of skills and future upside. However those two things balance out. Just my opinion...

I think you're right that there isn't a set trend, and the bolded is a pretty accurate one sentence motto, but I think we can expand with certain observations we can make with acquisitions included.

1) Petrie definitely likes skilled guys, particularly with size for their position. Not just shooting, but dribbling and passing. I'd say that's his default. (Hawes, Peja, Turkoglu, Cisco, Vlade, Webb, Tyreke, Salmons, K-Mart, Douby, Brad Miller)
2) He'll gamble on athleticism if its ELITE athleticism. (Wallace, Saint Jean)
3) Doesn't really gamble for size late, but likes to pick it early. (Grant, JT, Hawes)
4) Won't take need over BPA, but will make need a major factor. (J-Will over Pierce, we had to have a PG. Hawes they admitted was a need pick.)
5) Character doesn't seem to be a problem. (J-Will, Abdul-Rauf, Keon Clark, Bonzi, Artest, Webber in a certain way all had their issues)

So how do those observations relate to whether Petrie would take Cousins at 5 if available?


Monroe vs the late lottery guys - I don't see any way Petrie takes Aldrich, Udoh, Ed Davis, or Aminu over Cousins if he's available. Cousins fits the bigger need than the PF's and is probly the most skilled of the bunch relative to size. I don't think Petrie has proven to value character concerns high enough that it would trump those other factors.

That leaves two possibilities that I think Petrie would consider over Cousins at 5. Wesley Johnson and Greg Monroe (Don't go nuts anti-Monroe crowd, I'm just ftrying to forecast Petrie).

Johnson vs Cousins - Johnson brings size for the position, skill and the elite athleticism. Arguably need too at SG. However Cousins beats him in all those categories. Character concerns would not matter enough. Also if Cousins is available at 5, its probly because Johnson went 4. So we can safely cross him off the list I think.

Cousins vs Monroe - I think Monroe is the only guy I could possibly see Petrie pass on Cousins at 5 for. They're both centers so the need factor is even. Monroe is even more skilled overall than Cousins. Its possible Petrie could see Monroe as the best overall prospect or at least close enough that character would tip the scales.

That's not what I think will happen though. Cousins is the ultimate Petrie pick. He's big for his position, extremely skilled for his size, and fills our biggest need by far. Petrie has time and again ignored character concerns for talent. If Cousins is there at 5 we can look at GP's history and safely say he will bring the big fella to Sac-town.

 

[fnordius]

5) Character doesn't seem to be a problem. (J-Will, Abdul-Rauf, Keon Clark, Bonzi, Artest, Webber in a certain way all had their issues)

Wait a sec. In that list, there's nobody he drafted later than 1998, and the rest he acquired at fire sale discounts. Plus Artest may not have been his decision.

We will see, but I find his picks to be "safe" ones for the most part, and believe that tendency applies as much to character as anything else.

 

[beb0p]

How many of the guys listed above are interior rebound/defense guys?

Brian Grant, Michael Smith, Jason Thompson (still has the potential turn into one), and I'd throw Jerome James and Corsley Edwards into that group as well.

.

 

[sdballer]

Brian Grant, Michael Smith, Jason Thompson (still has the potential turn into one), and I'd throw Jerome James and Corsley Edwards into that group as well.

.

None on those guys were shot blockers, 3 of the 5 were 2nd rounders and if that's the best true bigs in 16 years of drafting, I think we've identified what geoff's type isn't.

 

[hammystyle]

Wait a sec. In that list, there's nobody he drafted later than 1998, and the rest he acquired at fire sale discounts. Plus Artest may not have been his decision.

We will see, but I find his picks to be "safe" ones for the most part, and believe that tendency applies as much to character as anything else.

You'd have to give me at least a couple examples of talented character question guys he passed on for safer picks. Maybe JT over Randolph?

The difference with Cousins is he's actually a very safe pick basketball wise. Its hard to pick a guy who's been drafted the last ten years who was a safer bet to be a 20-10 guy. Produced huge numbers in college and has an elite NBA frame. Its just a question of whether or not you think the potential downsides are worth that. You'd have to be really really sure he was a jerk to pass, or extremely confident in someone else.

 

[bajaden]

Brian Grant, Michael Smith, Jason Thompson (still has the potential turn into one), and I'd throw Jerome James and Corsley Edwards into that group as well.

.

Man, Corsley Edwards.. I'd completely forgotten about him. Which is probably a good thing. But congrats for remembering him..Well done!

 

[bajaden]

None on those guys were shot blockers, 3 of the 5 were 2nd rounders and if that's the best true bigs in 16 years of drafting, I think we've identified what geoff's type isn't.

To be fair, you have to go back through every draft and look at who was available and what the needs of the team were at the time. One of the most difficult players to find in a draft is a defensive, rebounding big man thats not a liability on offense. The Mutombo's of the world don't grow on tree's. When there is someone good enough, they usually go in the first five picks of the draft. Otherwise they usually tend to be late bloomers that a lot of teams passed on.

 

[bajaden]

Well the Kings will get a chance to see first hand how good Cousins and Favors are. They'll also have a chance to sit down and talk to both of them. Hopefully they'll come to some kind of decision about Cousins dedication to that game. I don't think there's any doubt that he's a very talented guy. There would have to be some obvious red flags for the Kings to pass on Cousins. Remember, Petrie is the guy that brought in an overweight Oliver Miller simply because he was so talented. It didn't work out, but Petrie wasn't opposed to trying.

By the way, I did think of another player that was brought in by Petrie that was a shotblocker. Good old Yogi Stewart..

 

[Anthony1]

I still think that if you look at the players Petrie drafted, the vast majority were considered to be good character guys. The only guy that really stands out to me is Jason Williams. He's the one guy that really breaks the mold from a character standpoint. Although, wasn't J-Will suspended from College for marijuana use or something? I guess that goes with character concerns, but I think it's a bit different than Cousins situation.

Funderburke is the only other guy that might have had some character concerns, but he was a second round flier, so Petrie was probably more willing to roll the dice. The only time Petrie has really gambled with a high draft pick on potential character concerns was Jason Williams. All those other guys are big time character guys. Brian Grant, Corliss Williamson (The Ultimate Good-Guy), Peja Stojakovic, Olivier Saint Jean, Hedo Turkoglu, Gerald Wallace, Kevin Martin, Francisco Garcia, Quincy Douby, Spencer Hawes, Jason Thompson and Tyreke Evans.

None of those guys were even close to being malcontents, and again, the Jason Williams pick, although the most head scratching from a character standpoint, again, I think it was most likely marijuana use, which Petrie probably chalked up to youth and was willing to gamble on.

 

[Flopi]

To be fair, you have to go back through every draft and look at who was available and what the needs of the team were at the time. One of the most difficult players to find in a draft is a defensive, rebounding big man thats not a liability on offense. The Mutombo's of the world don't grow on tree's. When there is someone good enough, they usually go in the first five picks of the draft. Otherwise they usually tend to be late bloomers that a lot of teams passed on.

Exactly what I was thinking.
I understand that, because of our historical lack of big men, people tend to overvalue this type of players.
But they forget that GOOD defensive big men are rare.

I remember that last year a lot a forumers here were rooting for Thabeet and even Jordan Hill just because they are big. Do they regret Petrie's choice now ?

About Petrie, a better question would be "which good big man did he pass on on draft day ?".
I made a quick research and the only questionnable choice is in 2001, when he picked Wallace in 25 and Sixers got Dalembert in 26.
But again, you have take the context in account : we were contenders and our roster was full.

In my opinion, Petrie's tendency is to pick the BPA, whatever his position is, and I certainly don't think that he will be relunctant to pick Cousins because "he's not his type of player"...

 

[Telemachus]

I still think that if you look at the players Petrie drafted, the vast majority were considered to be good character guys. The only guy that really stands out to me is Jason Williams. He's the one guy that really breaks the mold from a character standpoint. Although, wasn't J-Will suspended from College for marijuana use or something? I guess that goes with character concerns, but I think it's a bit different than Cousins situation.

Funderburke is the only other guy that might have had some character concerns, but he was a second round flier, so Petrie was probably more willing to roll the dice. The only time Petrie has really gambled with a high draft pick on potential character concerns was Jason Williams. All those other guys are big time character guys. Brian Grant, Corliss Williamson (The Ultimate Good-Guy), Peja Stojakovic, Olivier Saint Jean, Hedo Turkoglu, Gerald Wallace, Kevin Martin, Francisco Garcia, Quincy Douby, Spencer Hawes, Jason Thompson and Tyreke Evans.

None of those guys were even close to being malcontents, and again, the Jason Williams pick, although the most head scratching from a character standpoint, again, I think it was most likely marijuana use, which Petrie probably chalked up to youth and was willing to gamble on.

Obviously, Jason Williams is the biggest problem child the Kings have drafted (the list is long at 2 colleges). I would point out that Saint-Jean was known for being a bit of a malcontent. He was always a bit of a loner and went on to cause problems throughout his career. Gerald Wallace was another player who was at odds with his coach in college. Granted, the way he was used in college, I think he had a point.

What I don't get is how several people have used "malcontent" when referring to Cousins. There is no doubt that he has a temper and has shown signs of immaturity, but that is a far cry from being a malcontent. I have heard mostly good things about him from his teammates who have all said they liked him and got along with him. This speaks volumes to me. The only teammate to say anything negative was Orton (said he threw a couple tantrums), but even he said Cousins was a good player and a good teammate. This doesn't sound like a malcontent to me. I know someone will point out his arguments with Calipari, but he was seen laughing and getting along with Calipari most of the season (only had a couple arguments). Yet, John Wall said during the season that he had to tune out Calipari at times so he could just play the game. I personally find that to be much worse than arguing, but of course, no one considers him to be a problem.

 

[Hallama]

To me this is a three player draft for the Kings: Cousins, Turner and Johnson - in that order.

That pretty much sums it up for me too. I wouldn't hate if the Kings picked Monroe or Aldrich, but they would have to pass on Cousins or Johnson to do so. Doesn't make too much sense.

I think one guy overlooked in this draft is Avery Bradley, I think he has a chance to be a top 5 guy from this draft down the road.

 

[bajaden]

That pretty much sums it up for me too. I wouldn't hate if the Kings picked Monroe or Aldrich, but they would have to pass on Cousins or Johnson to do so. Doesn't make too much sense.

I think one guy overlooked in this draft is Avery Bradley, I think he has a chance to be a top 5 guy from this draft down the road.

Bradley is my dark horse candidate for down the road. But I'd be less than honest if I didn't say he disappointed me this year. But then the whole Texas team, except for James disappointed me. They had final four talent. They were plagued with injuries, but they still should have been better than they were. Bradley was part of that. He has a lot of talent, and personally I think he was misused to a certain extent. He's not a top five pick at the moment. But it wouldn't surprise me to see him become a very good player down the road.

Also, don't be surprised if Aldrich ends up being a better player than Monroe. Yeah, I know shocking. But then I'm a defensive minded nut..

 

[UK_King]

Some snippets from a journo on Twitter

"Wondering if Cousins slips to 4 if Kings need to make a trade w/ T-Wolves to keep another team from moving up to get him..."

"I hear teams are interested in moving up to get Cousins"

 

[hammystyle]

I still think that if you look at the players Petrie drafted, the vast majority were considered to be good character guys. The only guy that really stands out to me is Jason Williams. He's the one guy that really breaks the mold from a character standpoint. Although, wasn't J-Will suspended from College for marijuana use or something? I guess that goes with character concerns, but I think it's a bit different than Cousins situation.

Funderburke is the only other guy that might have had some character concerns, but he was a second round flier, so Petrie was probably more willing to roll the dice. The only time Petrie has really gambled with a high draft pick on potential character concerns was Jason Williams. All those other guys are big time character guys. Brian Grant, Corliss Williamson (The Ultimate Good-Guy), Peja Stojakovic, Olivier Saint Jean, Hedo Turkoglu, Gerald Wallace, Kevin Martin, Francisco Garcia, Quincy Douby, Spencer Hawes, Jason Thompson and Tyreke Evans.

None of those guys were even close to being malcontents, and again, the Jason Williams pick, although the most head scratching from a character standpoint, again, I think it was most likely marijuana use, which Petrie probably chalked up to youth and was willing to gamble on.

I think all GM's would fit this profile of taking guys who are good character guys. Mostly just because I think most basketball players are decent humans. There's not some well of super talents but dangerous dickheads where only the bold gm's will trespass. There might be one or two guys a year talented enough to play in the NBA who have serious issues. Seriously what talented malcontent did we pass on?

Petrie took on Artest, Bonzi and Jim Jackson when they were highly unwanted in the league. He gave up a #7 pick for a small white PG who got kicked off his college team. If a guy is talented Petrie has proven to be up for it.

 

[fnordius]

About Petrie, a better question would be "which good big man did he pass on on draft day ?"

Just to look at the last 2 years before he finally picked a big again:
Douby over Millsap
Garcia over David Lee, Turiaf, Blatche and Gortat

 

[hammystyle]

Just to look at the last 2 years before he finally picked a big again:
Douby over Millsap
Garcia over David Lee, Turiaf, Blatche and Gortat

Not very compelling evidence.

 

[fnordius]

Not very compelling evidence.

No evidence on the subject of Geoff's draft record will be compelling, since most people have already reached their own conclusions. Maybe Hedo was BPA over Magloire. Maybe non-BPA JWill over Dirk was an appropriate concession to need. One can spin and justify, in any number of ways, most slightly ambiguous situations.

But there's no doubt that we'd have a better team if the draft years I listed had happened differently, instead of drafting 3 SGs in a row.

(I'll say it in advance, to spare others the bother: "But hindsight is easy and infallible, no GM is perfect..." etc. etc.)

 

[bajaden]

No evidence on the subject of Geoff's draft record will be compelling, since most people have already reached their own conclusions. Maybe Hedo was BPA over Magloire. Maybe non-BPA JWill over Dirk was an appropriate concession to need. One can spin and justify, in any number of ways, most slightly ambiguous situations.

But there's no doubt that we'd have a better team if the draft years I listed had happened differently, instead of drafting 3 SGs in a row.

(I'll say it in advance, to spare others the bother: "But hindsight is easy and infallible, no GM is perfect..." etc. etc.)

As they say hindsight is 100%. Take a look at this years draft. I'd say that there are two players with can't miss written all over them. Wall and Turner. Then there are three players with probably can't miss written on them. Cousins, Favors, and Johnson. But its possible that someone taken well below them will emerge as a better player. Maybe even as good as Wall and Turner turn out to be. But does anyone care to tell me who that player is? Anyone?

Five years from now it'll be obvious. Thats just the way of the draft. Its always easy to point fingers after the fact. And in some cases its justified. I thought Douby was a bad pick at the time. Unfortunately I was right. And I wasn't alone in that judgement. In Petrie we trust, took a serious hit with that one. I was leaning toward Farmer or Rodrigeuz. I couldn't get excited about Rondo at the time. Good defender that had average point guard skills and couldn't shoot. Shows what I know. If Milsap was such a great choice at the time, then just about everyone else missed on him as well, since he slid into the second round.

In truth when it came time for the Kings to pick there was no one that just leaped off the board at you. I guess Petrie thought that if there was no clear cut winner, he would take a gamble on a athletic combo guard that shot well in his workout. I can't think of another explaination.

 

[UK_King]

We skipped on dirk.... Shame.

 

[Tetsujin]

We skipped on dirk.... Shame.

Considering we already had another SF prospect on the roster at the time and we really needed a PG, you could see why Geoff passed on him.

 

[beb0p]

Just to look at the last 2 years before he finally picked a big again:
Douby over Millsap
Garcia over David Lee, Turiaf, Blatche and Gortat

There is always some dude late in the 1st rd or the 2nd round who surprises everyone and there is absolutely no way any mortal could predict who that is. Millsap was no better a prospect in 2006 than Samardo Samuels in 2010.

I can just see it: five years from now Samardo Samuels (or it may be Derrick Caracter, or Michael Washington, or Art Parahouski, or Charles Garcia, or Luke Harangody, or Latavious Williams, or whoever) is going to become a stud and someone on this board is going to scream, "See, GP could have drafted _________ but instead he picked Wesley Johnson!!"

If anyone thought in 2006 that Paul Millsap would become a stud, bravo to that person because I certainly didn't think so and no one in the publishing world thought so. And if anyone think we should pass up a wing player in this draft in favor of Samardo Samuels, speak up now or forever hold your peace.
.

 

[hammystyle]

No evidence on the subject of Geoff's draft record will be compelling, since most people have already reached their own conclusions. Maybe Hedo was BPA over Magloire. Maybe non-BPA JWill over Dirk was an appropriate concession to need. One can spin and justify, in any number of ways, most slightly ambiguous situations.

But there's no doubt that we'd have a better team if the draft years I listed had happened differently, instead of drafting 3 SGs in a row.

(I'll say it in advance, to spare others the bother: "But hindsight is easy and infallible, no GM is perfect..." etc. etc.)

I meant that at the time Millsap, Lee, Blatche, and Gortat weren't exactly great big man prospects. I actually liked them all at draft time too. Millsap was a small PF from a small school. Lee was an athletic PF who was unproductive in college. Blatche was a skilled big high school kid with a lot of potential but had attitude issues. Gortat was kind of a random athletic Euro big. They've turned into very productive players but they are not franchise changing talents.

Cousins is a 6'11" 285 center who dominated college basketball his freshman year. He's a completely different case. He fits our needs 100% perfectly. So I don't think you can look at late first, 2nd round bigs made good and turn it into anything that relates to Cousins if he's available at 5. Or in short, not very compelling evidence.

BTW - The guy we should have taken over J-Will is Paul Pierce. He was the sure thing BPA, and if we did take him he would have played SG with Peja at 3, Webber and Vlade. Crunch time scorer with a phenomenal shooter and a great frontcourt. We'd have definitely won a championship with that core even with a journeyman at PG.

 

[dbfish]

It is going to come down to Cousins or Johnson when we pick unless Minnie decides to pull a another PG out of their hat.
If Cousins is there you have to go for him. If he's gone Johnson is the next best player that also fills a need.

 

[T4L3NT3D530]

i dont know how many of you follow cousins on twitter but i noticed an interesting post made 3 hours ago by him... it reads, "R.I.P. to the competition! Lmao" i wonder if this is a direct reference to the workout with favors this morning...

 

[Tetsujin]

i dont know how many of you follow cousins on twitter but i noticed an interesting post made 3 hours ago by him... it reads, "R.I.P. to the competition! Lmao" i wonder if this is a direct reference to the workout with favors this morning...

It probably meant he just out ate Sean May.

 

[Chupacabra]

i dont know how many of you follow cousins on twitter but i noticed an interesting post made 3 hours ago by him... it reads, "R.I.P. to the competition! Lmao" i wonder if this is a direct reference to the workout with favors this morning...

It most likely is a direct reference. Cousins should be dominating Favors in a 1v1 workout. Hes much larger than Favors. The Kings could seriously use Cousins skills and attitude.

 

[fnordius]

I meant that at the time Millsap, Lee, Blatche, and Gortat weren't exactly great big man prospects. I actually liked them all at draft time too. Millsap was a small PF from a small school. Lee was an athletic PF who was unproductive in college. Blatche was a skilled big high school kid with a lot of potential but had attitude issues. Gortat was kind of a random athletic Euro big. They've turned into very productive players but they are not franchise changing talents.

No, they aren't, but neither is Garcia. Until Evans, the Kings hadn't had a pick higher than #7 since 1991, so there were exceedingly few franchise bigs to be had, unless you think that ZI or Jermaine O'Neal (who were passed on to get Peja) would qualify. Well... or Dirk.

Since July 1994, Geoff picked a 6'7" combo F (Corliss, '95), and didn't pick anyone else whose natural position was PF or C until 2007 (when, not surprisingly, we wound up with a 7' guy who likes shooting 3s, followed by a guy with good character from a tiny school). Can you name any other team that's gone on a 12 year run without drafting a big? One or two may exist, but that isn't a normal pattern by any stretch of the imagination.

That's not to say that I'm sure we won't end up with Cousins, I wasn't trying to argue that we weren't. I'm not even sure that Geoff is going to make the draft choice this year, I think he might be getting ready to retire before much longer, and may leave it to his 2nd in command and the coaching staff.

But I do think there is a Geoff style of pick, whether it matters anymore or not.

 

[Kevin's Good Feet]

Can you name any other team that's gone on a 12 year run without drafting a big? One or two may exist, but that isn't a normal pattern by any stretch of the imagination.

And there are teams that draft useless big after useless big (Robert Swift and Saer Sene or Patrick O'Bryant, Ike Diogu, and Brendan Wright in the lottery) and then scratch their heads when those picks don't work out and end up being wastes. While I would like for us to draft a defensive big, I would also not like to waste picks as well.

I understand the frustration on some people's part, but it's not like for these picks Petrie had his choice of sure-fire shot blocking bigs and opted for a SG instead. Every one of those guys were extremely iffy at the time and no different from some of the same big men prospects here who people wanted at the time but are now out of the league or doing nothing (Richard Hendrix, Devon Hardin, Stephane Lasme, Chris Richard, Joey Dorsey, etc.)

As far as the draft history, what are we even talking about? The Kings frontcourt was set once we got Webber and Vlade and then we had a stretch of either bad picks or no picks at all. The first time we entered the lottery again we drafted a big. Two years in a row.