Cousins-Duncan debate (split)

[Im Still Ballin]

Been watching some old Tim Duncan footage thinking to myself.... Cousins has that potential. Duncan a smidge taller, Cousins longer arms, both have around the same vertical (Considering Cousins weighs more/higher bodyfat), both can score from multiple areas on the court/skilled, both can anchor a defense and protect the rim/good defensive awareness. The only thing I see that really holds Cousins back from that level is, his conditioning and weight + playing within himself. Duncan was the go-to guy in the post like Cousins is now, but he played a game of finesse and had a go to move. I wish Cousins would embrace his finesse game. The physical game is messy and makes Cousins have tunnel vision. I think the post game has significant benefit for this team, but Cousins has to be more finesse based and quicker down low, which will allow him to be a better/more willing passer there. At times recently he looks Dwight Howard like with his tunnel vision and lack of finesse.

I see Tim Duncan potential just waiting to be tapped into. 24/12 playing bullyball. As great as that is, A lighter "Tim Duncan esque" finesse orientated Cousins would be better.

 

[kingsboi]

Been watching some old Tim Duncan footage thinking to myself.... Cousins has that potential. Duncan a smidge taller, Cousins longer arms, both have around the same vertical (Considering Cousins weighs more/higher bodyfat), both can score from multiple areas on the court/skilled, both can anchor a defense and protect the rim/good defensive awareness. The only thing I see that really holds Cousins back from that level is, his conditioning and weight + playing within himself. Duncan was the go-to guy in the post like Cousins is now, but he played a game of finesse and had a go to move. I wish Cousins would embrace his finesse game. The physical game is messy and makes Cousins have tunnel vision. I think the post game has significant benefit for this team, but Cousins has to be more finesse based and quicker down low, which will allow him to be a better/more willing passer there. At times recently he looks Dwight Howard like with his tunnel vision and lack of finesse.

I see Tim Duncan potential just waiting to be tapped into. 24/12 playing bullyball. As great as that is, A lighter "Tim Duncan esque" finesse orientated Cousins would be better.

I see absolutely nothing in Boogie's game that reminds me of Tim Duncan. Duncan is a PF by the way so he has been light most of his career, now he is even "lighter" due to the amount of stress his knees took with that frame so he did all right for himself from a conditioning stand point. He was a swimmer before coming to the NBA, let's not forget. What Boogie can do though is watch Duncan's patience and perseverance if he is going to take anything away from Duncan. Boogie has absolutely zero post moves right now and that's a shame. He is in his sixth season, that should of been a given all ready IMO. Duncan is a 15 time first team all NBA PF/C....let's not state that Cousins has some type of potential where he can anchor a defense year in and year out. It's too early for that and even in a few seasons if you want to look down the road, he is not that type of player. He will give you good defense in spurts but once he is winded, forget about it, he starts reaching and getting angry.

 

[Im Still Ballin]

I see absolutely nothing in Boogie's game that reminds me of Tim Duncan. Duncan is a PF by the way so he has been light most of his career, now he is even "lighter" due to the amount of stress his knees took with that frame so he did all right for himself from a conditioning stand point. He was a swimmer before coming to the NBA, let's not forget. What Boogie can do though is watch Duncan's patience and perseverance if he is going to take anything away from Duncan. Boogie has absolutely zero post moves right now and that's a shame. He is in his sixth season, that should of been a given all ready IMO. Duncan is a 15 time first team all NBA PF/C....let's not state that Cousins has some type of potential where he can anchor a defense year in and year out. It's too early for that and even in a few seasons if you want to look down the road, he is not that type of player. He will give you good defense in spurts but once he is winded, forget about it, he starts reaching and getting angry.

You've pretty much said my point. Demarcus CAN do these things, but as I said, his conditioning and body composition holds him back. You don't understand my comparison. Physically he is similar to Duncan. He does not necessarily play like Duncan, but he has all the skills to do so. He has the post moves, we've seen them. He has the defensive anchor abilities, we've seen them. He has all the tools to be a Duncan, but he chooses to play with extra weight and a bullyball style which isn't optimal because he's no Shaq.

 

[jcwkings]

The difference is Duncan is a cerebral player and Cousins still lets his emotions dictate his game practically every night. Cousins very much has the attributes to be a Duncan/Marc Gasol type defender, but again that will never happen if his emotions make him play a certain way or make him commit mental mistakes.

 

[Bricklayer]

You've pretty much said my point. Demarcus CAN do these things, but as I said, his conditioning and body composition holds him back. You don't understand my comparison. Physically he is similar to Duncan. He does not necessarily play like Duncan, but he has all the skills to do so. He has the post moves, we've seen them. He has the defensive anchor abilities, we've seen them. He has all the tools to be a Duncan, but he chooses to play with extra weight and a bullyball style which isn't optimal because he's no Shaq.

He chooses to play that way because he's nto a weak sister like Duncan.

because that is notoriously the very reason Duncan started all of that deep turnaround off the glass nonsense -- he came to the NBA and wasn't strong enough, so had to find a way.

Even so Cousins is a more dominant offensive player, when used correctly, than Duncan was. Duncan was neither more efficient and nowhere near as prolific.

 

[Im Still Ballin]

He chooses to play that way because he's nto a weak sister like Duncan.

because that is notoriously the very reason Duncan started all of that deep turnaround off the glass nonsense -- he came to the NBA and wasn't strong enough, so had to find a way.

Even so Cousins is a more dominant offensive player, when used correctly, than Duncan was. Duncan was neither more efficient and nowhere near as prolific.

I'm not so sure you can make that distinction just quite yet. Duncan has sustained scoring success.. Efficient at that too. Duncan's career True shooting, is Cousins' career high so far. And that's taking around the same shots per game on a career perspective. Duncan in his prime was a better scorer. Especially in the post. The stats all say this.

"Of the glass nonsense"? All the greats had go to moves. Shaq had the jump hook or the "BOOM BOOM" as he liked to call it... Duncan has the bank off the glass.... Dirk and KG had the fade. "Bully-ball is no excuse for no technique/finesse.

I honestly think this is just due to his poor fitness at the moment, he balanced his game with a lot more finesse the last two seasons... He's not moving as well at the moment so he forces the issue with contact more. His poor field goal percentage is partial due to gameplan, but even in his good spots, he's below par.

 

[Im Still Ballin]

And in the playoffs, he puts up even better scoring numbers, as expected from a top 10 all timer. Even in his last 4 playoff runs from ages 35-39, he's averaged around 17/10 in around 35 minutes a game while playing elite defense. Tim Duncan is the pinnacle of greatness for the bigman. I advise Cousins try replicate him because Duncan isn't a vertical athlete. He shares similar athletic capabilities as him. I believe Cuz has the fundamentals that'll take him to that level. Not many bigs do, but we all know Cuz can. Just his fitness and his mental approach stands in his way.

Here's a video I found of his post moves from recent seasons

Yeah I really just think it's his fitness at the moment. Similar moves to what he has been doing this season, just not been as quick or explosive. Hopefully he gets back to condition soon. But man, Cousins would be lethal with a Tim Duncan bank shot.

 

[The_Jamal]

He chooses to play that way because he's nto a weak sister like Duncan.

because that is notoriously the very reason Duncan started all of that deep turnaround off the glass nonsense -- he came to the NBA and wasn't strong enough, so had to find a way.

Even so Cousins is a more dominant offensive player, when used correctly, than Duncan was. Duncan was neither more efficient and nowhere near as prolific.

Yeah... no

Duncan the better playmaker, didn't turn the ball over as much, his career efficiency is Cuz's career high and the far more reliable go-to option when you need buckets.

 

[jcwkings]

San Antonio won championships almost exclusively running the offense through Duncan in the low block, he was dominant in his prime. Cousins has yet to prove he can deal with double teams effectively, how many times have we seen him stripped, or make a bad pass off of doubles? Brick is walking down a very lonely road trying to argue Cousins over Duncan.

 

[peacelate]

Cousins should expand his low-post game even if you think it's sissy ball because it will prolong his career.

 

[Prog]

As much as I love DMC, Duncan was the better defensive and offensive player at the same stage in his career.

Cumulative comparison, seasons 1-6
http://bkref.com/tiny/aQQcD

Season 6 only
http://bkref.com/tiny/816kb

 

[Bricklayer]

And in the playoffs, he puts up even better scoring numbers, as expected from a top 10 all timer. Even in his last 4 playoff runs from ages 35-39, he's averaged around 17/10 in around 35 minutes a game while playing elite defense. Tim Duncan is the pinnacle of greatness for the bigman. I advise Cousins try replicate him because Duncan isn't a vertical athlete. He shares similar athletic capabilities as him.

He might share similar athletic capabilites as Duncan if he followed your advice and became a skinny weakling. But no, he does not. He's got limited verticality, but he's far stronger and more agile than Duncan was at any point of his career.

Yeah... no

Duncan the better playmaker, didn't turn the ball over as much, his career efficiency is Cuz's career high and the far more reliable go-to option when you need buckets.

Duncan was nothing of the sort, other than less likely to turn the ball over. Of course he was less likely precisely because he was less dynamic.

I'm largely ignoring this year's Cousins efficiency and I think I am right to do so -- this is an artificial coach-created issue so blatant I can easily diagram its sources. In fact I can demonstrate the problem in 2 shotcharts:

Cousins shotchart 15-16:

Cousins shotchart 13-14:

Duncan never faced such stupidity in his carer. In fact he never had any coaching adversity whatsoever in his career. He wasn't truly a special offensive player on the all time charts, but he was absolutely used correctly from the moment he set foot in the NBA until today. You think Cuz struggles with Karl's system, I can only imagine what Duncan's numbers would have looked like if put into a similarly stupid scheme. Here ya go Timmy! Just shoot a three or use those awesome ballhandling skills to drive 25 feet to the hoop.

Here is what Tim Duncan's shot charts looked like a this peak in 03-04, and then last year in 14-15:

Duncan 2003-04:

Duncan 2014-15:

Now which of Boogie's charts do those closely resemble? And which do they not. Duncan was never more efficient than fully developed Boogie. But his coach was certainly a lot brighter than Boogie's coaches have been, and Duncan never lost him to stupidity.


As for Duncan's productivty, of course as always the key is simply to look past the minutes. Duncan has 1 season of his entire career when he averaged more than 22pts/per 36 minutes. Typically he was a 20-22pt/36 guy, which is star level production, but not truly dominant production. And contrary to some earlier assertions, he didn't pick that level up in the playoffs either. In fact on his career is slightly less productive per 36 in the playoffs than in the regular season (20.3pts/36 on .551 in regular season, 20.1pts/36 on .549 in the playoffs). Again, solid long time star, but not a dominant offensive force.

Boogie, even messed with by Karl, is on his way to his 3rd straight season of 25+pts/36 work, with the constant impression he could give even more if the stars align. To give you some idea, that's only been done by a big man (C, C/F or F/C at bball-ref) 28 times in the modern era of basketball (last 35 years), and 9 of those 28 were by Shaq. The only other "big" to accomplish it 3x in all that time was Dan Issel, who was barely a big, and playing for the super run n gun Nuggets at the very beginning of the period when pace was crazy. Admiral & Moses did it twice, and then some more small run n gun tweeners Amare and Chambers did it twice. Ewing and Hakeem only did it once. So one more time, Cousins is well on his way to being the most prolific big man scorer of the modern era except for Shaq.

 

[kingsboi]

You've pretty much said my point. Demarcus CAN do these things, but as I said, his conditioning and body composition holds him back. You don't understand my comparison. Physically he is similar to Duncan. He does not necessarily play like Duncan, but he has all the skills to do so. He has the post moves, we've seen them. He has the defensive anchor abilities, we've seen them. He has all the tools to be a Duncan, but he chooses to play with extra weight and a bullyball style which isn't optimal because he's no Shaq.

Physically similar? Duncan through out his career has hovered around the 250 pound range, no? DeMarcus came into the league 290 and now he is 270 and has been for the last couple of seasons. I don't see it at all. DeMarcus has no post moves, what are you talking about? He will do a nice spin move once in a blue moon and dunk the ball or something but consistently, he has no post moves you are speaking of.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

Duncan was never more efficient than fully developed Boogie.

I'm sorry, but this is just not accurate. We don't even have to make excuses about Cousins being misused relative to Duncan, because there are a lot better numbers now that are a bit more telling than a mess of overlaid red and green on a shot chart.

Let's just look at this claim, using the numbers.

"Duncan is not more efficient than Cousins"
Duncan is more efficient in each of the four inside-the-arc distances (0-3 feet, 3-10 feet, 10-16 feet, and 16-23 feet) than Cousins. Interestingly, Duncan is a slightly better shooter from 16-23 (.405 vs .385 career), and the disparity gets somewhat worse as you move in (10-16 feet, .403 vs .343; 3-10 feet .442 vs .352; 0-3 feet .695 vs .629). From the preferred regions Duncan was clearly superior. From 0-3 feet, Cousins' best year was a .673 percentage, but Duncan was .695 for his career and had only two of his sixteen seasons less efficient than Cousins' very best year under the rim. It's just as bad from 3-10 feet, where Cousins' best year was .402, and Duncan (.442 career) again beat that 14 of 16 times. In fact, the only position on the court where Cousins can be said to be more efficient than Duncan is outside the three-point line.

"But Duncan wouldn't be more efficient than Cousins if Cousins shot more from the inside, like Duncan"
Actually, Cousins shoots more from the inside than Duncan ever did. Cousins averages 37.5% of his FGAs under the rim. Duncan only beat that number once in 16 years and his career average is 30.9% of shots under the rim. Duncan does shoot a bit more from 3-10 feet than Cousins (33.4% vs 29.6%) but Cousins' efficiency in that range is so bad (.352 FG%) it's hard to argue he should shoot more from there. As for 10+ foot jumpers, Duncan has taken 35.8% of his career shots from that range, while Cousins has only taken 32.9% of his shots there.

"But Cousins was more efficient under Malone because he took more shots on the inside"
Cousins is most efficient directly under the rim. But under Malone (2013-2014 season), he only took 35.9% of his shots there, below his 37.5% career average and only barely above this season's 35.2% of his shots directly under the rim under Karl. In fact, it appears that the threes that Cousins is taking this year are coming almost solely at the expense of his shots between 3 and 23 feet.

"But Cousins shouldn't be taking so many threes, it's a terrible shot for him compared to a closer shot"
Cousins has developed his three pointer into a fairly efficient shot this year. He's getting 0.924 points per shot from three, which is better than he has ever done in any season at any distance 3 feet from the basket or more, and it's not particularly close. Excluding threes, Cousins' efficiency over his career is 0.726 points per shot from three feet and further.

"But Cousins being out on the perimeter more is hurting his ability to get to the line"
Cousins took 13.2 FTs per 100 possessions under Malone in 2013-2014, and he's taking 13.7 FTs per 100 possessions, the best rate of his career, so far this year under Karl. (By the way, Duncan's career mark was 9.6 FT attempts per 100 possessions, and his career best was 12.5, so Cousins is way better at getting to the line than Duncan ever was, no matter whether he's playing more on the perimeter or not.)

Bottom line, Duncan was way more efficient than Cousins at anything that wasn't a three - this is despite not getting to the line as much. Cousins' lower efficiency this year is actually due to poor conversion under the rim (.586 FG%, well below his .629% career average) despite a very similar number of attempts there, and not due to his three point shot. Why has he lost efficiency under the rim? I'd guess it's a lack of lift resulting from aftereffects of last year's viral meningitis and the various injuries he's dealing with this year. Even then, at his best he has been able to be more efficient than only the very worst seasons of Duncan's career. Cousins is a great player - he's an incredible rebounder, an underrated defender (and the best charge-drawer in the league) and he's very versatile, having quickness, ball-handling ability, and jumpshooting rarely seen in a player his size. But he's not remotely an elite-efficiency offensive player, and he never has been.

 

[Bricklayer]

I'm sorry, but this is just not accurate. We don't even have to make excuses about Cousins being misused relative to Duncan, because there are a lot better numbers now that are a bit more telling than a mess of overlaid red and green on a shot chart.

Let's just look at this claim, using the numbers.

"Duncan is not more efficient than Cousins"
Duncan is more efficient in each of the four inside-the-arc distances (0-3 feet, 3-10 feet, 10-16 feet, and 16-23 feet) than Cousins. Interestingly, Duncan is a slightly better shooter from 16-23 (.405 vs .385 career), and the disparity gets somewhat worse as you move in (10-16 feet, .403 vs .343; 3-10 feet .442 vs .352; 0-3 feet .695 vs .629). From the preferred regions Duncan was clearly superior. From 0-3 feet, Cousins' best year was a .673 percentage, but Duncan was .695 for his career and had only two of his sixteen seasons less efficient than Cousins' very best year under the rim. It's just as bad from 3-10 feet, where Cousins' best year was .402, and Duncan (.442 career) again beat that 14 of 16 times. In fact, the only position on the court where Cousins can be said to be more efficient than Duncan is outside the three-point line.

"But Duncan wouldn't be more efficient than Cousins if Cousins shot more from the inside, like Duncan"
Actually, Cousins shoots more from the inside than Duncan ever did. Cousins averages 37.5% of his FGAs under the rim. Duncan only beat that number once in 16 years and his career average is 30.9% of shots under the rim. Duncan does shoot a bit more from 3-10 feet than Cousins (33.4% vs 29.6%) but Cousins' efficiency in that range is so bad (.352 FG%) it's hard to argue he should shoot more from there. As for 10+ foot jumpers, Duncan has taken 35.8% of his career shots from that range, while Cousins has only taken 32.9% of his shots there.

"But Cousins was more efficient under Malone because he took more shots on the inside"
Cousins is most efficient directly under the rim. But under Malone (2013-2014 season), he only took 35.9% of his shots there, below his 37.5% career average and only barely above this season's 35.2% of his shots directly under the rim under Karl. In fact, it appears that the threes that Cousins is taking this year are coming almost solely at the expense of his shots between 3 and 23 feet.

"But Cousins shouldn't be taking so many threes, it's a terrible shot for him compared to a closer shot"
Cousins has developed his three pointer into a fairly efficient shot this year. He's getting 0.924 points per shot from three, which is better than he has ever done in any season at any distance 3 feet from the basket or more, and it's not particularly close. Excluding threes, Cousins' efficiency over his career is 0.726 points per shot from three feet and further.

"But Cousins being out on the perimeter more is hurting his ability to get to the line"
Cousins took 13.2 FTs per 100 possessions under Malone in 2013-2014, and he's taking 13.7 FTs per 100 possessions, the best rate of his career, so far this year under Karl. (By the way, Duncan's career mark was 9.6 FT attempts per 100 possessions, and his career best was 12.5, so Cousins is way better at getting to the line than Duncan ever was, no matter whether he's playing more on the perimeter or not.)

Bottom line, Duncan was way more efficient than Cousins at anything that wasn't a three - this is despite not getting to the line as much. Cousins' lower efficiency this year is actually due to poor conversion under the rim (.586 FG%, well below his .629% career average) despite a very similar number of attempts there, and not due to his three point shot. Why has he lost efficiency under the rim? I'd guess it's a lack of lift resulting from aftereffects of last year's viral meningitis and the various injuries he's dealing with this year. Even then, at his best he has been able to be more efficient than only the very worst seasons of Duncan's career. Cousins is a great player - he's an incredible rebounder, an underrated defender (and the best charge-drawer in the league) and he's very versatile, having quickness, ball-handling ability, and jumpshooting rarely seen in a player his size. But he's not remotely an elite-efficiency offensive player, and he never has been.

I think you're too smart to have made such a mistake.

You very specifically went to who shot a better percentage from wherever on the flloor. That's informative in a way, but ironically as any modern analytic head will tell its NOT the be-all of scoring efficiency. Andre Drummond shoots .523 from the floor., And yet Andrew Drummond is NOT a terribly efficient scorer. The reasons of course are because he not only doesn't get any points from 3pt shots or free throws, he actually wastes possessions when he gets fouled with his awful FT shooting.

Similarly the very reasons that DeMarcus Cousins IS as efficient as Tim Duncan was/is is because DeMarcus Cousins is a far more mobile, powerful and talented ballhandler than Duncan was. Cousins game is very specifically to the rack to an almost unprecedented level. He wants to get on the rim, and he has the skillset and athletic traits (quick for a big and powerful) to do it. Tim Duncan did not. And hence Tim Duncan could use a turnaround fallaway off the glass all he wants, and shoot it better than Boogie. But Boogie makes up all those points by doing something Duncan could not -- slam his way to the rim and get to the line. Saying that Duncan was a better 12 foot shooter isn't really a great argument unless the two of them are playing horse.

The end result is that a properly deployed Boogie moves the scoring needle ahead just as efficiently as Duncan has, and he moves it faster too due to his ability to sustain that efficiency at a higher usage rate, and probably with more ancillary benefits by putting opponents in foul trouble and getting them into the penalty. I don't think I ever said he was an elite efficiency scorer. But he's right there as efficient as some of the great big man scorers in history in Moses, Duncan, Ewing, Hakeem, and he's more prolific than any of them.


As far as this year, Cousins problems are largely related to system. We can't even talk honestly about falloffs in percentages without acknowledging that shots from the same areas of the floor are coming about in different ways. Those facing midrange jumpers are no longer smooth catch and shoots in rhythm, they are now shots he dribbles into, off the move. The scattered posts on the left side are frequently out of rhythm, almost accidents rather than strategies. The shots at the rim no longer involve offensive rebounds and follows against a scattered defense, and when he drives he is coming from much further out, while guys are starting to hop in his way while the bigs wait for him at the rim like a catcher's mitt. They are not the same shots. In fact most of them are exactly the style shots you always wanted him to cut out of his game, only now they are featured.

 

[gil renard]

This Cousins/Duncan debate, although interesting, belongs in its own thread. We talkin bout playoffs here.

 

[Im Still Ballin]

I'm sorry, but this is just not accurate. We don't even have to make excuses about Cousins being misused relative to Duncan, because there are a lot better numbers now that are a bit more telling than a mess of overlaid red and green on a shot chart.

Let's just look at this claim, using the numbers.

"Duncan is not more efficient than Cousins"
Duncan is more efficient in each of the four inside-the-arc distances (0-3 feet, 3-10 feet, 10-16 feet, and 16-23 feet) than Cousins. Interestingly, Duncan is a slightly better shooter from 16-23 (.405 vs .385 career), and the disparity gets somewhat worse as you move in (10-16 feet, .403 vs .343; 3-10 feet .442 vs .352; 0-3 feet .695 vs .629). From the preferred regions Duncan was clearly superior. From 0-3 feet, Cousins' best year was a .673 percentage, but Duncan was .695 for his career and had only two of his sixteen seasons less efficient than Cousins' very best year under the rim. It's just as bad from 3-10 feet, where Cousins' best year was .402, and Duncan (.442 career) again beat that 14 of 16 times. In fact, the only position on the court where Cousins can be said to be more efficient than Duncan is outside the three-point line.

"But Duncan wouldn't be more efficient than Cousins if Cousins shot more from the inside, like Duncan"
Actually, Cousins shoots more from the inside than Duncan ever did. Cousins averages 37.5% of his FGAs under the rim. Duncan only beat that number once in 16 years and his career average is 30.9% of shots under the rim. Duncan does shoot a bit more from 3-10 feet than Cousins (33.4% vs 29.6%) but Cousins' efficiency in that range is so bad (.352 FG%) it's hard to argue he should shoot more from there. As for 10+ foot jumpers, Duncan has taken 35.8% of his career shots from that range, while Cousins has only taken 32.9% of his shots there.

"But Cousins was more efficient under Malone because he took more shots on the inside"
Cousins is most efficient directly under the rim. But under Malone (2013-2014 season), he only took 35.9% of his shots there, below his 37.5% career average and only barely above this season's 35.2% of his shots directly under the rim under Karl. In fact, it appears that the threes that Cousins is taking this year are coming almost solely at the expense of his shots between 3 and 23 feet.

"But Cousins shouldn't be taking so many threes, it's a terrible shot for him compared to a closer shot"
Cousins has developed his three pointer into a fairly efficient shot this year. He's getting 0.924 points per shot from three, which is better than he has ever done in any season at any distance 3 feet from the basket or more, and it's not particularly close. Excluding threes, Cousins' efficiency over his career is 0.726 points per shot from three feet and further.

"But Cousins being out on the perimeter more is hurting his ability to get to the line"
Cousins took 13.2 FTs per 100 possessions under Malone in 2013-2014, and he's taking 13.7 FTs per 100 possessions, the best rate of his career, so far this year under Karl. (By the way, Duncan's career mark was 9.6 FT attempts per 100 possessions, and his career best was 12.5, so Cousins is way better at getting to the line than Duncan ever was, no matter whether he's playing more on the perimeter or not.)

Bottom line, Duncan was way more efficient than Cousins at anything that wasn't a three - this is despite not getting to the line as much. Cousins' lower efficiency this year is actually due to poor conversion under the rim (.586 FG%, well below his .629% career average) despite a very similar number of attempts there, and not due to his three point shot. Why has he lost efficiency under the rim? I'd guess it's a lack of lift resulting from aftereffects of last year's viral meningitis and the various injuries he's dealing with this year. Even then, at his best he has been able to be more efficient than only the very worst seasons of Duncan's career. Cousins is a great player - he's an incredible rebounder, an underrated defender (and the best charge-drawer in the league) and he's very versatile, having quickness, ball-handling ability, and jumpshooting rarely seen in a player his size. But he's not remotely an elite-efficiency offensive player, and he never has been.

This is a terrific post. I made that point abou the 3pt shot earlier. It's still more efficient than his career best mid range mark which is 42%. I think we can all agree that Cousins needs some form of perimeter shot in his game. Note; the perimeter shot for the purpose of making his inside game easier. The function of the long ball, is to serve the inside game. We can obviously talk about how the extended shot from the midrange to the 3 ball affects the team overall... You could argue that Cousins might run into more offensive fouls driving from the distance.... We can talk about how it drags the bigman further out and creates lanes to the hoop for players to attack. We can talk about Rondo thriving, Casspi having a solid season....

All I know is, this is not the huge deal that everyone is making this out to be. Even at the most it was just 4 shots a game, of 19 or so. And it has dropped in the last two weeks. The last 5 games he's taken 2.4 3's a game at 33% (Which is significantly more efficient than his career best 42% from midrange), yet he's still shooting 40% during this span. As you've shown, Cuzs 2% percentage is way down. My answer is the same it's always been. He's recovering from injuries, he's in poor condition at the moment. Honestly he hasn't looked good physically all season. Where's that Cuz who was running the break? The one that didn't take 10 seconds to get to the frontcourt. Cuz is just physically not right. You can notice the difference in his movement when comparing to the last 2 seasons.

Karl is not the problem here guys. He's shown the change people have wanted. He's a HOF, one of the top 5 most winning-est coaches ever. Let's not treat him like a total moron. I'm seeing less threes and more post ups. The major coaching issue we should be talking about is defense. And we must admit that it has been looking continually better as the season has gone on. 5-2 in our last 7. Easily could have been 7-0 which means we've been competitive in pretty much every game.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

I think you're too smart to have made such a mistake.

Actually, my mistake was in not realizing that you were arguing that Cousins' best TS% season was no worse than Duncan's career (which obviously is correct). But you went to shot charts (which apply more to where shots are being taken and certainly don't take into account FTs) so I assumed you were eschewing TS% and I took a different approach.

Still, Cousins' efficiency problems this year stem largely from his percentages three feet and in - where he's still getting a ton of shots. He's actually taking fewer of his lower-efficiency midrange jumpers, and to the extent that his percentages on his midrange jumper have gone down, that's balanced out by the decrease in how often he shoots them and his much improved shooting from three. His offensive rebounds are down, but qualitatively I've never thought he was terribly efficient at converting those (barring actual numbers being available, my exaggerated view of Cousins and offensive rebounds in previous years often comes down to: missed shot, Cousins tips and misses, Cousins tips and misses, Cousins tips and misses, then half the time Cousins tips and hits.) I still feel that lingering health is hurting him far more than system - which is still allowing him to shoot as often in the post as he used to, while phasing out less-efficient midrange shots.

 

[Blob]

I'm sorry, but this is just not accurate.

Don't apologize for being right Look with due respect to Bricklayer because I like his takes, which beats being wishy washy, but Duncan is tougher than Boogie. Why? Toughness among NBA elite is not measured in circumference or style. Its measured in will and discipline and patience and grit. Its making the smart play in crunch time.

Boogie has not made enough winning plays or he would not be sub-30 wins for his career. His game is too much about "get mine" than "get them".

Once Boogie acquires half of the mental attributes that Duncan has, we will be a consistent playoff team. Until then we get behind the back passes when opponent cuts lead from 15 to 6 and time and situation completely eludes the franchise guy.

Duncan rises when the pressure is on. Boogie folds. Check the stats. Check the rings. The game is won between the ears. Both guys have immense skill. But one begs for calls and one doesn't need the ref to bail him out. One tries to do too much. One does what he can within his skill set. That's more than enough.

The best thing about Duncan is that he plays basketball the way it is meant to be played. Shaq calls him Mr. Fundamental to mask his jealousy of a guy he was incapable of being in terms of longevity and savvy.

Once Boogie gets to a place where the ref is irrelevant we might have something. Once Boogie believes in his teammates for better or worse as much as he believes in himself then we might go somewhere. Until then it is hard for me to believe in this team.

The goal of every offensive possession is to get a high percentage shot regardless who shoots it. On one of the X-Mas games the point was made just because a play is called for Kawhi does not mean he needs to shoot the ball. This is a concept Kawhi grasped to collective benefit of his team. This same lesson has eluded Boogie.

As an aside, the 8th playoff seed is irrelevant to me. That's a death wish! The playoffs start at the 7th seed. Ideally I want the Clippers. I'll settle for the Spurs (since Boogie might be able to negate Duncan and Aldridge). But playing the Warriors in the first round is mince meat sentence. Give me the 13th pick instead and Vlade can parlay into a defensive wing.

***​

Anyway the thing Bricklayer misses is that Boogie gets an incredible number of high quality shots in this offense. And if they are not high quality he is under no obligation to jack. The high pick and roll with Rondo in the middle of the floor is a beautiful thing and has been all year and yet the system is the problem?!?!?!

No the problem is Boogie being shot-happy and prone to breakdown because he is runaway train instead of staying on his tracks, i.e. respecting opponents right to position on the floor.

Boogie has it in his mind that he needs to dominate and be the man without reference to the talent and ability of his teammates. There is a balance between taking over and deferring and he has not found it. This is what this team is lacking more than defense and stronger leadership from Karl.

We need a floor leader who is going to lead prudently and defer willingly instead of bitching to refs 24/7. Its disgusting. Just shut up already. Until then the Kings are pretenders. My hope is Boogie gets healthier and needs less reliance on the whistle to be efficient. This is the key to getting the 7th spot or better.

I want believe but not yet.

This team goes as far as Boogie takes them. I am still waiting to feel as if the rug will not be pulled out from under those with hope and optimism. I need to see more from Boogie that he has more awareness and savvy than a perpetual underachiever. If he gets healthier and starts to trust his teammates we have a chance. If not, we get a continuation of the last decade.

 

[sono]

 

[Sac.Kings]

This argument is ridiculous. Duncan is one of the greatest to ever play. Period. I consider it borderline crazy thinking that Cousins is better. Might be a better scorer in terms of point production, but in terms of efficiency not even close. If he were anywhere near Duncan's level, we would have at least sniffed the playoffs at least a couple of times.

 

[Im Still Ballin]

This argument was originally about potential anyways. Demarcus has shown all the tools to be a Tim Duncan. He has never put it together although. Conditioning and mental fortitude has and will probably continue to be what will hold him back.

 

[PurpleHaze]

Only argument I see in sports media of late is who has been better NBA player/champion over past two decades, Tim Duncan or Kobe Bryant? Cousins has long, long way to go to ever get in that debate - Duncan and Bryant both with five rings.

 

[King Baller]

For this comparison to be even remotely valid you must take into account each players team environment when they came into the league, along their NBA career path and now.

Duncan - 1st pick and a known blue chip player.
Coached by Popovich from day one. This alone makes the comparison comical.
Played alongside the Admiral. David Robinson was perhaps the greatest NBA Player mentor ever.
Was drafted into a NBA program that won a Championship in his second season.
Has been surrounded by a good team for his career.

Cousins - I'm not even going to detail the coaching carousel we have witnessed. The Maloof blunders alone would have sunk most young players loyalty. Then Vivek comes in and chooses the right coach but brings in a disaster of a GM and Advisor.

I find this comparison offensive, really I do. It is unfair on so many levels that it should not even be taking place. The continued attacks on Cousins due to his "conditioning" are dumb. He was superb for Team USA and to start this season before the nagging injuries. Even now any team in the association would love to have Cousins on their roster.

This young man has stated repeatedly his loyalty for the Sacramento Kings and his desire to turn the Kings fortunes around.

He deserves our support not constant complaining about his perceived shortcomings.

In the words of Bill Walsh:

“You need to stretch people to help them achieve their full potential…the most powerful way to do this is by having the courage to say, “I believe in you.” These four words constitute the most inspirational message a leader can convey.”

 

[mac]

For this comparison to be even remotely valid you must take into account each players team environment when they came into the league, along their NBA career path and now.

Duncan - 1st pick and a known blue chip player.
Coached by Popovich from day one. This alone makes the comparison comical.
Played alongside the Admiral. David Robinson was perhaps the greatest NBA Player mentor ever.
Was drafted into a NBA program that won a Championship in his second season.
Has been surrounded by a good team for his career.

Cousins - I'm not even going to detail the coaching carousel we have witnessed. The Maloof blunders alone would have sunk most young players loyalty. Then Vivek comes in and chooses the right coach but brings in a disaster of a GM and Advisor.

I find this comparison offensive, really I do. It is unfair on so many levels that it should not even be taking place. The continued attacks on Cousins due to his "conditioning" are dumb. He was superb for Team USA and to start this season before the nagging injuries. Even now any team in the association would love to have Cousins on their roster.

This young man has stated repeatedly his loyalty for the Sacramento Kings and his desire to turn the Kings fortunes around.

He deserves our support not constant complaining about his perceived shortcomings.

In the words of Bill Walsh:

“You need to stretch people to help them achieve their full potential…the most powerful way to do this is by having the courage to say, “I believe in you.” These four words constitute the most inspirational message a leader can convey.”

I find it offensive too ... offensive to Tim Duncan. Might as well start comparing Rudy Gay to LeBron James while we're at it. Being "surrounded by a good team for his career" has as much to do with Duncan's ability and commitment as it does with the Spurs' (also great) ability to find good fitting players. Without Duncan, Tony Parker isn't a 6-time all star. Without Duncan, the Spurs don't have 5 of their rings. Without Duncan, Pop is probably not the respected supreme coach he is seen as now. This isn't a knock on Cousins the same way saying Dwight Howard is no Hakeem is not a knock on Howard. Are we seriously comparing arguably the greatest PF ever to play the game to a talented center who has yet to win 30 games in a season? And IMO, Cousins will never be close to the same leader that Duncan is. Yes, it very much is a result of circumstance and situation as well, but pretty much everything is in life, and last I checked not many people get to go around saying they could have been so and so had they been born into a certain family (for example).

 

[King Baller]

I find it offensive too ... offensive to Tim Duncan. Might as well start comparing Rudy Gay to LeBron James while we're at it. Being "surrounded by a good team for his career" has as much to do with Duncan's ability and commitment as it does with the Spurs' (also great) ability to find good fitting players. Without Duncan, Tony Parker isn't a 6-time all star. Without Duncan, the Spurs don't have 5 of their rings. Without Duncan, Pop is probably not the respected supreme coach he is seen as now. This isn't a knock on Cousins the same way saying Dwight Howard is no Hakeem is not a knock on Howard. Are we seriously comparing arguably the greatest PF ever to play the game to a talented center who has yet to win 30 games in a season? And IMO, Cousins will never be close to the same leader that Duncan is. Yes, it very much is a result of circumstance and situation as well, but pretty much everything is in life, and last I checked not many people get to go around saying they could have been so and so had they been born into a certain family (for example).

All else aside answer me one question. How many games have the Kings won without DeMarcus Cousins?

 

[bajaden]

When you make these kind of comparisons, your bound to get a lot of disagreements, which is why I always hesitate to do so. Especially when comparing two players of this kind. While Cuz has always held up Duncan as a player he would like to replicate, he plays nothing like him. As pointed out in another post, Duncan is a PF who has been forced to play center at times. A major difference between the two, is that Duncan spent four years at Wake Forest learning his craft, and came into the NBA as a very fundamentally sound player. He actually started his athletic career as a swimmer in the Virgin Islands, and didn't start playing basketball until highschool.

When he arrived in Spurs land, he wasn't the go to guy on the team. They already had that in some dude named David Robinson, so Duncan wasn't pressured to be the team savior. Duncan's offensive game was more finesse than bully, although he wasn't afraid to bang with the big boys. Duncan took what the defense gave him, and still does. Cuz plays more of a Shaq game in the post. He reminds me more of Moses Malone, or Wilt Chamberlain than he does Duncan. If Cuz can learn to be more patient in the post, he'll take a giant step forward. Better conditioning will help of course, but Cuz will never be a Tim Duncan type of player, nor should he try to be. All he has to do is perfect what he does best.

 

[bajaden]

All else aside answer me one question. How many games have the Kings won without DeMarcus Cousins?

A dangerous question to ask, because someone can always ask, how many games have the Kings won with him in the lineup? The answer of course is always definitive, but any conclusions based on those facts are vague.

 

[jcwkings]

All else aside answer me one question. How many games have the Kings won without DeMarcus Cousins?

How many have they won with him? Its the difference of being a terrible team to a mediocre team. Not all on Cousins but its not like we are world beaters all of a sudden with him on the floor, just competitive enough to win on most nights, its execution and attention to details that bogs this team down.

 

[kupman]

It is really kind of hard to believe that this is even being debated.

But anyway, if DMC had been drafted into the Spurs situation his stat lines would be far less impressive. The Spurs have been all about balance whereas DMC has been a 1 man show for much of his career.