Could KOBE lead the Cavs to the Finals?

[DaMan]

The lakers only have the one guy ( Odom).

Cavs team are misfits, but they've got former All Stars at C and OG, and at least a third guy (Gooden) better than any Laker other than Odom is currently.

And all of that said, Cleveland is better, but they aren't THAT much better. And that was how the records played out. The Lakers won...42? The Cavs won 50. Better, but not in a total other world. But Cleveland IS in a total other world when it comes to the Conference they were in. If they'd been out West, the current NBA Finals would have been the matchup IN THE FIRST ROUND (Cavs would hae been a 6th seed in the West).

I agree with everything u have said brick espeaically about the Odom and the lakers.

But Personaly I think that if cleveland was out west they would be an 8th or 7th seed not 6. I think that the best 6 teams are in the west: The Mavs, suns, spurs, rockets, Jazz, Denver, then Detorit or Cleveland.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

You think the Nuggets are better than the Cavaliers? That's... interesting...

Although (at least to this point in their careers)... Carmello does have two more playoff victories against the Spurs than LeBron does...

 

[DaMan]

You think the Nuggets are better than the Cavaliers? That's... interesting...

Although (at least to this point in their careers)... Carmello does have two more playoff victories against the Spurs than LeBron does...

I find it amzaming that Carmello has lead that denver team to the playoffs in the WEST each and every year he has been there, i think he is one of the most underrated stars in the league. But that is beside the point, i think Denver is one of the top teams in leauge. They currently have 2 future hall of famers on the perimenter with Iverson and Melo, they have the Def player of the year in Camby, a great post player and rebounder in Nene, and also add that they have a great bench with Johnson, Diawara, Keliza, Smith, Evans, Martin (if healthy), and Najera . I think this Denver team out does the Caverilars in every way possible (maybe Defense) deeper, better role players, better bench, and so on.

They have a really solid team from head to toe and remember this team has yet to play a full season together and they still made it to the playoffs and give SA a hard time. I think if they don't change anything and get a full season under their belt before heading into the playoff next year they could make alot of noise.

It is just so sad how bad the east is compared to the west.

 

[JSin]

The lakers only have the one guy ( Odom).

Cavs team are misfits, but they've got former All Stars at C and OG, and at least a third guy (Gooden) better than any Laker other than Odom is currently.

And all of that said, Cleveland is better, but they aren't THAT much better. And that was how the records played out. The Lakers won...42? The Cavs won 50. Better, but not in a total other world. But Cleveland IS in a total other world when it comes to the Conference they were in. If they'd been out West, the current NBA Finals would have been the matchup IN THE FIRST ROUND (Cavs would hae been a 6th seed in the West).

They are former All-Stars for a reason. They aren't All-Stars anymore. Odom is far and away the best player on both teams save for the stars. Is Big Z that much better than Bynum? Maybe more steady and reliable at this point, but no superstar. And the way Hughes played (and didn't) this year it could be argued that Walton was his equal. And lets remember that Eric Snow was the Cavs PG for most of the season. Even Kwame Brown is better than that. You can claim the Cavs are better by name appeal, but the Lakers all have the better stats, you can't complain if the team in the weaker conference puts up worse #'s that the team in the better conference, that doesn't make any sense.

 

[vladetomiller]

Ok since you are so comfotable with your stats and you are pointing to it I have to respond.

Lakers average FG% is good because of

Kwame Brown 59%
Andrew Bynum 57%
Ronny Turiaf 55%

And drum roll for Aron Mckie at 64% (I might be off by a couple of points since I didnt have time to look up the exact numbers but they are very close )

That brings the lakers FG% to a very good number and i am sure any team in the league would take Kwame, Bynum and Ronny over Z, Gooden and Varejao
For Bynum you have to think about just what he is worth today and not look at potential for the future.

So Just based on that stat, I am sure the spurs would want Aron Mckie running the point for them instead of Tony parker, I wonder how Mitch can handle all those phone calls asking about Mckie with a stellar 67% FG

Odom is good, no doubt but he was injured a lot last season and also called Odumb for no reason. since you are a kings fan I am sure you remember the game in 2005 where the lakers had a 4 point lead, 30 secs to go with a full shot clock and the ball. Odumbs offensive foul on a drive gave the win to the kings.

I think you can compare Ronny to Varejao, they are similar and both hustle and play with energy.

But when you have Z who is a post threat anytime, that changes the game a lot compared to a Kwame who cannot even catch the ball and dunk it most of the time. if only he had dunked all those his % would be closer to 80.

 

[Bricklayer]

They are former All-Stars for a reason. They aren't All-Stars anymore. Odom is far and away the best player on both teams save for the stars. Is Big Z that much better than Bynum? Maybe more steady and reliable at this point, but no superstar. And the way Hughes played (and didn't) this year it could be argued that Walton was his equal. And lets remember that Eric Snow was the Cavs PG for most of the season. Even Kwame Brown is better than that. You can claim the Cavs are better by name appeal, but the Lakers all have the better stats, you can't complain if the team in the weaker conference puts up worse #'s that the team in the better conference, that doesn't make any sense.

1) Yes Big Z is still CONSIDERABLY better than Bynum
2) Walton = Hughes???? Come on. Numbers appraoch irrelevancxy when you try to make that agument. Walton is a roleplayer, gets his numbers because he plays next to a star. hughes is a near star level player, who if anything has ssen his number suppressed by playing next to the star.
3) Snow plays the same position as...Smush Parker.
4) Kwame on the other hand is not as good as Gooden, or at least as dependable. The Lakers would likely trade him straihgt up for Varejao, so not sure he even outpoints him.

And you can always put up better stats if the other team is walking it up and grinding it out while you are running up and down the floor and not playing any defense. And defense really is what separates these squads. The Cavs have shown they are quite tenacious on that side of the ball throughout the playoffs. The Lakers..one of the worst. Makes a huge difference.

 

[Gargamel]

Bron experienced his first taste of the woes that Kobe sees in the West. I'd be surprised if this series goes 6 games. The newbie factor is in effect here moreso than usual -- huge chasm betwixt the two teams in terms of experience.

As an aside, Bron's a fabulous player (no doubt the best non-center HSer ever), but I'll dry heave if hear A.S. Smith equating him to Magic one more time. Bron is not any better of a comparison to Magic than he is to Jordan. Magic averaged a triple double over his first 49 playoff games. 49. Bron's Gm6 at Detroit is nothing that the MJs and Bird have done fifty times over.

 

[JSin]

Ok since you are so comfotable with your stats and you are pointing to it I have to respond.

Lakers average FG% is good because of

Kwame Brown 59%
Andrew Bynum 57%
Ronny Turiaf 55%

And drum roll for Aron Mckie at 64% (I might be off by a couple of points since I didnt have time to look up the exact numbers but they are very close )

That brings the lakers FG% to a very good number and i am sure any team in the league would take Kwame, Bynum and Ronny over Z, Gooden and Varejao
For Bynum you have to think about just what he is worth today and not look at potential for the future.

So Just based on that stat, I am sure the spurs would want Aron Mckie running the point for them instead of Tony parker, I wonder how Mitch can handle all those phone calls asking about Mckie with a stellar 67% FG

Odom is good, no doubt but he was injured a lot last season and also called Odumb for no reason. since you are a kings fan I am sure you remember the game in 2005 where the lakers had a 4 point lead, 30 secs to go with a full shot clock and the ball. Odumbs offensive foul on a drive gave the win to the kings.

I think you can compare Ronny to Varejao, they are similar and both hustle and play with energy.

But when you have Z who is a post threat anytime, that changes the game a lot compared to a Kwame who cannot even catch the ball and dunk it most of the time. if only he had dunked all those his % would be closer to 80.

Your using their FG% to associate how good they are as players. I only brought up the FG%'s because someone else claimed that the Lakers had worse shooters than the Cavs, which could be argued if they only had a higher FG%, but how do you explain the 3pt% and FT%?

 

[JSin]

2) Walton = Hughes???? Come on. Numbers appraoch irrelevancxy when you try to make that agument. Walton is a roleplayer, gets his numbers because he plays next to a star. hughes is a near star level player, who if anything has ssen his number suppressed by playing next to the star.
3) Snow plays the same position as...Smush Parker.
4) Kwame on the other hand is not as good as Gooden, or at least as dependable. The Lakers would likely trade him straihgt up for Varejao, so not sure he even outpoints him.

2) Walton is a role player and I don't know if this is your first time watching the Cavs in the past two years, but that is exactly what Hughes is right now. There is no way in hell he is a star level player for what he has done after he signed that huge money contract for Clevland. Do you think the addition of Kobe would turn Hughes back into a star player? No, so that's the comparison.
3. I'd take Smush over Eric Snow at this point. How valuble is a perimeter player, playing with a superstar who drives the lane if that player doesn't have the range to hit any of those wide open shots? That's why Gibson has played so great, because Cleavland finally figured out that a shooter is invaluable next to LeBron, not a defensive specialist.
4. I never claimed Kwame was better than Gooden.

 

[DaMan]

2) Walton is a role player and I don't know if this is your first time watching the Cavs in the past two years, but that is exactly what Hughes is right now. There is no way in hell he is a star level player for what he has done after he signed that huge money contract for Clevland. Do you think the addition of Kobe would turn Hughes back into a star player? No, so that's the comparison.
3. I'd take Smush over Eric Snow at this point. How valuble is a perimeter player, playing with a superstar who drives the lane if that player doesn't have the range to hit any of those wide open shots? That's why Gibson has played so great, because Cleavland finally figured out that a shooter is invaluable next to LeBron, not a defensive specialist.
4. I never claimed Kwame was better than Gooden.

1)No way in your right mind you could u say Walton is as good as Hughes. The guy is better defender, better slasher, everything expect for jump shooter. True he is not working out in cleveland but there is no why in hell Walton is as good as hughes, there is a reason he got his contract.

Hughes would start on most teams in this leauge and would be perfect third opition. If you have seen Hughes play he is a great lock down defender, he is big part of the reason why cleveland is considered one of the top defence teams in the leauge. But the main reason he is not working out in Cleveland for the simple fact that they are trying to make him a spot up shooter (also adding making him play PG) when he is a slasher, joe johnson or Micheal Red would have been a way better signing for that team.

And if Walton went to any other team more likely than not he would be a bench player.

2) This is a push, they are both bench players (this is sad considering Parker is currently starting for the lakers). Parker is a good player on offence, while Snow on D and better passer.

 

[vladetomiller]

Your using their FG% to associate how good they are as players. I only brought up the FG%'s because someone else claimed that the Lakers had worse shooters than the Cavs, which could be argued if they only had a higher FG%, but how do you explain the 3pt% and FT%?

Now that you have given up on FG %

3pt% Cavaliers 35.2 Lakers 35.3 - Is that your definition of a better 3Pt% team. Assuming that is

Kobe the best player on the team takes 5.2 3 pointers per game and makes 34.4 % of them and mind you many of those are late shot clock heaves and end game heroics he tries, but still a good 34.4 %

Bron takes 4 3pt shots a game and makes 31.9 % of them, he also tries those 3 pointers sometimes when his offense is not working but as the % states he is not a good shooter

Two best 3Pt % guys on lakers cook and shammond williams at 40%

Cavaliers better 3pt shooters

Gibson 41.9
Sasha 40.5
Newble 53.3
damon jones 38.5

And again your point about 3pt % was......

I think you didnt look up the stats and you are just talking about some think one of your buddies mentioned in one of those parties about how the lakers team is better than the cavs yet kobe cant take them anywhere and was giving a reason for why it is so and you are just saying that here.

 

[vladetomiller]

2)
3. I'd take Smush over Eric Snow at this point. How valuble is a perimeter player, playing with a superstar who drives the lane if that player doesn't have the range to hit any of those wide open shots? That's why Gibson has played so great, because Cleavland finally figured out that a shooter is invaluable next to LeBron, not a defensive specialist.
.

As you saw in the previous reply of mine, cavs have very good point guards who can hit those 3 pointers much better than any of the lakers can, including smush parker.

There is a reason why snow is playing for the cavs some big minutes and damon jones is not, if you dont know what that is - DEFENSE

I dont know if you have seen smush play enough games, while he can be a pesky defender if he puts his mind into it, most often than not he doesnt, he gambles for steals and sometimes gets them but most often the other PG gets dribble penetration and opens up for everyone else.

Eric Snow is a veteran who knows how to play the game on both ends of the floor, defers to the super star to dictate things and doesnt think he is a superstar, plays excellent team defense and individual defense though he has lost a step from his philly days.

There is a reason why smush makes less than a million and snow makes multi millions

 

[JSin]

1)No way in your right mind you could u say Walton is as good as Hughes. The guy is better defender, better slasher, everything expect for jump shooter. True he is not working out in cleveland but there is no why in hell Walton is as good as hughes, there is a reason he got his contract.

Did I ever say Walton was as good as Hughes? No. I said their level of play was similar this year, which it was. Steve Nash is great, but if you make him a center he is going to be worse than Scott Pollard. It doesn't matter how good a player is if the team isn't using him that way. Hughes was great before he got that huge contract (like many players before him). Now he's just another wing player than can hit a couple shots and plays above average defense (he is nowhere near a lockdown defender).

Joe Johnson a jumpshooter, good one.

 

[JSin]

Now that you have given up on FG %

I gave up on FG%?

3pt% Cavaliers 35.2 Lakers 35.3 - Is that your definition of a better 3Pt% team. Assuming that is

Yes, 35.3 is higher than 35.2, its higher. Are you arguing that 35.2 is higher than 35.3?

Kobe the best player on the team takes 5.2 3 pointers per game and makes 34.4 % of them and mind you many of those are late shot clock heaves and end game heroics he tries

I always love this line, he takes all the heaves... like every team in the NBA doesn't take these.

Two best 3Pt % guys on lakers cook and shammond williams at 40%

Cavaliers better 3pt shooters

Gibson 41.9
Sasha 40.5
Newble 53.3
damon jones 38.5

And again your point about 3pt % was......

It was that the Lakers were the better FG%, 3pt% and FT% team and thus ALL the evidence suggests better shooters. The fact that Cleavland had a couple guys shoot higher percentage's (even if you include Newble and his 8-15 line on the year, which no right thinking person would, and not including Walton at 38.7 even though you included the lower Jones for the Cavs... suspicious) doesn't change the fact that the Lakers as a team were more accurate. The better question is what is exactly was your point?

I think you didnt look up the stats and you are just talking about some think one of your buddies mentioned in one of those parties about how the lakers team is better than the cavs yet kobe cant take them anywhere and was giving a reason for why it is so and you are just saying that here.

Huh? You think I was talking about this with a buddy at a party... wtf?

 

[JSin]

As you saw in the previous reply of mine, cavs have very good point guards who can hit those 3 pointers much better than any of the lakers can, including smush parker.

Do you know who started the majority of Cavs games at point guard this year? Eric Snow.

He was such a great 3 point shooter, guess how many he made the entire year? 0. Zero. Every point guard on the Lakers is a better 3 point shooter than the starting PG for the Cavs.

Now to put this to rest and completely bury you. The stats for whoever was playing PG for their respective teams...

LA: 16.9 ppg 51.4 eFG%
Clev: 12.2 ppg 47.0 eFG%

Nice try.

 

[DaMan]

I am sorry but the finals is just showing it how hard it is to play with a western conf team put cavs in the west doubt they make it out in round one. I really do think put kobe on that cavs team they would make it out in the east.

 

[JSin]

I am sorry but the finals is just showing it how hard it is to play with a western conf team put cavs in the west doubt they make it out in round one. I really do think put kobe on that cavs team they would make it out in the east.

And look at that near star Hughes. He's earning that contract.

I think I remember people writing off the Cavs last time they were down 2-0. Let's wait until this series goes back to Cleavland before counting the Cavs out.

 

[vytzka]

I think I remember people writing off the Cavs last time they were down 2-0. Let's wait until this series goes back to Cleavland before counting the Cavs out.

Agreed.

 

[vladetomiller]

Do you know who started the majority of Cavs games at point guard this year? Eric Snow.

He was such a great 3 point shooter, guess how many he made the entire year? 0. Zero. Every point guard on the Lakers is a better 3 point shooter than the starting PG for the Cavs.

Now to put this to rest and completely bury you. The stats for whoever was playing PG for their respective teams...

LA: 16.9 ppg 51.4 eFG%
Clev: 12.2 ppg 47.0 eFG%

Nice try.

Nice try yourself to spin all the way around

1. .1 differnce in 3pt % is not a difference to be considered and to be argued on

2. Damon Jones is a PG and he is sitting on the bench with a better 3pt % when Eric snow starts for a reason. As i mentioned in the previous post, go and read it. Cavs choose a different player for the PG position than a player who can just score and shoot 3 pointers though they have their own who can do that in Jones.

3. Every PG when playing against the lakers had a career game playing against smush parker, though he himself might be trying to score on the other side. You dont bury anything, you just dug yourself a hole.

Smush parker makes chump change and starts for the lakers after playing for many other teams and had a chance to make his mark

Eric Snow makes millions and is considered a solid veteran for that position and is in demand always.

 

[JSin]

Nice try yourself to spin all the way around

1. .1 differnce in 3pt % is not a difference to be considered and to be argued on

2. Damon Jones is a PG and he is sitting on the bench with a better 3pt % when Eric snow starts for a reason. As i mentioned in the previous post, go and read it. Cavs choose a different player for the PG position than a player who can just score and shoot 3 pointers though they have their own who can do that in Jones.

3. Every PG when playing against the lakers had a career game playing against smush parker, though he himself might be trying to score on the other side. You dont bury anything, you just dug yourself a hole.

Smush parker makes chump change and starts for the lakers after playing for many other teams and had a chance to make his mark

Eric Snow makes millions and is considered a solid veteran for that position and is in demand always.

I can't crack your density, I give up. I'll have to use the "he makes more money so he's better" arguement sometime.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

I think I remember people writing off the Cavs last time they were down 2-0. Let's wait until this series goes back to Cleavland before counting the Cavs out.

They weren't down 0-2 against the Spurs. And they didn't have a shot to win either of the first two games, either.

 

[vytzka]

They weren't down 0-2 against the Spurs. And they didn't have a shot to win either of the first two games, either.

Weren't folks arguing the other way around back then? Like "Pistons are sucking now as hard as they ever could, and still winning the games". Now Spurs won because they have been playing incredibly for those two games. It's not like they couldn't lose some of that focus and momentum on their way to Ohio.

edit: And this discussion should probably go in that other thread

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

The Spurs might lose Game 3, but only because they're all at the tailor getting fitted for the wedding. If this series even goes back to San Antonio, I'll be absolutely astonished... but there's NO doubt that the Spurs are going to win.


And, on a personal note, damn the Cavaliers; Spurs FTW!

 

[DaMan]

The Spurs might lose Game 3, but only because they're all at the tailor getting fitted for the wedding. If this series even goes back to San Antonio, I'll be absolutely astonished... but there's NO doubt that the Spurs are going to win.


And, on a personal note, damn the Cavaliers; Spurs FTW!

I totaly agree with this. The difference between this series and the pistons series is that the Cavs outplayed pistons in all six games and could have won that series in 4. I have yet to see the Cavs come close to beating the spurs or even out playing team. I see this series ending cleveland.

 

[vytzka]

That's the likeliest outcome.

But hey, stranger things have happened (I can't say what exactly, but I'm sure some folks with better grasp of NBA history could).

And even if it doesn't happen, LeBron already brought the team to what most people would have said was way over their heads. While, to get back to thread topic, Kobe is eating dust and whining like whiny little whiner. You might not like James (like I'm not really sure I do) but you can't deny the fact that he rocks on toast.

 

[grego]

Cavs should win game 3.

 

[VF21]

But hey, stranger things have happened (I can't say what exactly, but I'm sure some folks with better grasp of NBA history could).

Hmmm, let me think...

The Lakers were swept in 1989 by the Detroit Pistons after they (the Lakers) went undefeated all the way to the Finals. BUT the Lakeshow had to play those last games without the services of Magic Johnson.

I can't think of anything else...

 

[JSin]

Weren't folks arguing the other way around back then? Like "Pistons are sucking now as hard as they ever could, and still winning the games". Now Spurs won because they have been playing incredibly for those two games. It's not like they couldn't lose some of that focus and momentum on their way to Ohio.

Not from everything I read and watched. All I heard was "LeBron did a good job leading his team this far, but its a progression and they just aren't ready to beat the Pistons" and "The Cavs showed they can hang with the Pistons, but it's clear the Pistons are the more experienced team and should win in 5, 6 at the most." Unless you were listening to Cleavland radio nobody was picking the Cavs to win the series when they were down 2-0. Just like nobody is now, I'm not. But... tonight will say a lot.

 

[hoopsfan]

Hmmm, let me think...

The Lakers were swept in 1989 by the Detroit Pistons after they (the Lakers) went undefeated all the way to the Finals. BUT the Lakeshow had to play those last games without the services of Magic Johnson.

I can't think of anything else...

...and Byron Scott.