Comparing the Kings big 3 to the big 3s of good teams

[TaxMan]

The T-Wolves don't get blown out in most of their games.

We might as well also point out they haven't had a change in coaches and that Thorton has been injured for a good chunk of the year. Start the year with Smart as our head coach and stay injury free, I wouldn't be shocked if we had a better win/loss record than Minny (even if by dumb luck). Never mind the fact that we've played two more games on the road than they have. I have no idea if their competition has been as tough, but it's pretty well known that the kings opponents the first month of the season have been some of the toughest in the league. Not trying to make excuses, but facts are facts. A two win difference in the win column, this early in the season, is not that difficult to flip given different circumstances outside of the talent on the team.

I think the point was that it's not like they are light years ahead of the Kings in the win column. The amount of gushing over the Twolves I read, I would have thought they were currently in line to make the playoffs (instead of sitting in 11th place in the conference). I understand they are a more exciting/fun team to watch right now, but results are results.

 

[mcsluggo]

It's also worth mentioning that many of the teams I mentioned have cores that actually have lass playing time together than the Kings, yet are still better. But I'm sure it would be promptly dismissed with the one size fits all "they're young" card, so I don't even know why I bother.

You guys are like the parents of a degenerate druggie failure who just keep making excuses for them rather than just admitting the cold hard truth that your kid is a **** up.

nice..... put up an opinion for discussion. Don't back up the opinion with any actual, you know, attempt at supporting the opinion. And then if anybody joins in the discussion, be a prick about other peoples opinions.

Then fall back on the whine that everybody else is persecuting you because you don't parrot the party line.



the fact is that MOST people on this board have serious frustrations with the structure of, and the components on this team, and in this organization. OBVIOUSLY the team has been bad for many years running now.. something isn't being done correctly. The point of a board like this, FOR A TEAM THAT CURRENTLY SUCKS, is to discuss (you might want to look up that work, you clearly don't understand it) what is wrong, what is more is wrong, what might possibly be workable, and what can hopefully be done.


saying: "This team sucks at everything." and then being a prick if anyone wants to discuss it is.. well... being a prick. Having the opinion that <components of this team are not great> is neither controversial, nor unique. get off your self pitty wagon and realize that people aren't responding harshly to your opinion, but rather the diplomatic skills and debating technique of the ambassador presenting th eopinion.

 

[Npliam]

We might as well also point out they haven't had a change in coaches and that Thorton has been injured for a good chunk of the year. Start the year with Smart as our head coach and stay injury free, I wouldn't be shocked if we had a better win/loss record than Minny (even if by dumb luck). Never mind the fact that we've played two more games on the road than they have. I have no idea if their competition has been as tough, but it's pretty well known that the kings opponents the first month of the season have been some of the toughest in the league. Not trying to make excuses, but facts are facts. A two win difference in the win column, this early in the season, is not that difficult to flip given different circumstances outside of the talent on the team.

I think the point was that it's not like they are light years ahead of the Kings in the win column. The amount of gushing over the Twolves I read, I would have thought they were currently in line to make the playoffs (instead of sitting in 11th place in the conference). I understand they are a more exciting/fun team to watch right now, but results are results.

Look man, I am not even a King's fan (I am a Jimmer fan) so I don't really have a dog in this fight. I just think that questioning Tyreke as being the foundation of contending team is legitimate. It isn't just wins and losses or his individual stats either. He doesn't compete hard every night, doesn't show any desire to run any kind of offense and hasn't really shown any improvement in his game since his rookie year. I would be worried if I were a King's fan.

 

[mcsluggo]

but i think EVERYONE can agree.. whatever the inherent level of talent (or relative lack-there-of) of this current core of 3...... the Kings as an organization are doing a pee poor job of both developing them towards reaching whatever potential ceiling they have, and surrounding them with players that both compliment their games, or aid in their development or have strong upside potential as well.... you have to have at least SOME of at least ONE of those things in players 4 through 13 of your roster.

the kings organization appears to have neither a plan for the future, nor much will towrds getting there. and perhaps it is by design (to force the area to just essentially emotionally bail on the kings so that the can get th e hell out of dodge) or that the leadership is just distracted?

 

[mcsluggo]

Based on how Tyreke has played this year and last year, I’d trade him for any of these guys from the last three drafts...

Blake Griffin
James Harden
Ricky Rubio
Stephen Curry
Brandon Jennings
John Wall

well.. you are not exactly talking about trading him for chopped liver.. so apparently your opinion of his talent isn't as bad as you make it seem.

i am also pretty frustrated by the lack of development after season 1. and some of that rests sqarely on his shoulders... but alot of it rests on the shoulders of what appears to be currently the worst run franchise in the league. i don't know for sure how far gone Petrie is at this point (and whether he still brings value or not...) but my opiniion on the Maloofs is set in stone at this point. They suck.

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

I can't argue with that, T-Pups are two games better in the win Column. Only player I would swap for would be K Love. I would swap coaches

The difference is actually much bigger that the two extra wins reflect. The Timberwolves haven't been blown out once this year. Their worst loss was by 15 and most of their losses were single digits. Contrast that to the Kings who have been lost by double digits twelve times and been blown out of the building seven times.

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

I have to disagree here. Without a strong big 3 to take the offensive load off of the role players, the role players will not be able to play their role well. When your big 3 is inconsistent (well mostly Tyreke, with injury excuse for Thornton), your role players deficiency will magnify IMO.

Exactly. You are only as good as your best players.

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

Why do you preface every statement you make denigrating the obvious logical reason why your logic is flawed?

Say what?

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

We might as well also point out they haven't had a change in coaches and that Thorton has been injured for a good chunk of the year. Start the year with Smart as our head coach and stay injury free, I wouldn't be shocked if we had a better win/loss record than Minny (even if by dumb luck). Never mind the fact that we've played two more games on the road than they have. I have no idea if their competition has been as tough, but it's pretty well known that the kings opponents the first month of the season have been some of the toughest in the league. Not trying to make excuses, but facts are facts. A two win difference in the win column, this early in the season, is not that difficult to flip given different circumstances outside of the talent on the team.

I think the point was that it's not like they are light years ahead of the Kings in the win column. The amount of gushing over the Twolves I read, I would have thought they were currently in line to make the playoffs (instead of sitting in 11th place in the conference). I understand they are a more exciting/fun team to watch right now, but results are results.

Well let's see, I'll gladly look it up. The Wolves have played the Thunder, Heat, Spurs, Bulls, Grizzlies, Jazz, Hawks, Clippers, and Rockets. They've played the Mavericks twice. In those 11 games they went 4 and 7. None of the seven losses were blowouts, though. Their worst loss was by 15 to the Rockets. So, yeah, basically the Wolves are better than the Kings, and by a larger margin than most KFs would care to admit.

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

nice..... put up an opinion for discussion. Don't back up the opinion with any actual, you know, attempt at supporting the opinion. And then if anybody joins in the discussion, be a prick about other peoples opinions.

Then fall back on the whine that everybody else is persecuting you because you don't parrot the party line.

Surely you jest. I’ve supported my opinion with data and analysis throughout this thread. Not my fault if you’re oblivious to that.

The point of a board like this, FOR A TEAM THAT CURRENTLY SUCKS, is to discuss (you might want to look up that work, you clearly don't understand it) what is wrong, what is more is wrong, what might possibly be workable, and what can hopefully be done.

Why is that the point? Because you say so? Why can’t the point be simply for fans to express their thoughts/feelings, whatever they may be, about the team?

saying: "This team sucks at everything." and then being a prick if anyone wants to discuss it is.. well... being a prick.

Hardly what I said.

Having the opinion that <components of this team are not great> is neither controversial, nor unique.

Hardly a problem since my was neither to be controversial or unique. Maybe other folks worry about that stuff, I do not.

get off your self pitty wagon and realize that people aren't responding harshly to your opinion, but rather the diplomatic skills and debating technique of the ambassador presenting th eopinion.

Self pity? Now you’re just throwing out random handfuls of crap and hoping something sticks.

I’m sorry if my views/opinions got your panties in a twist.

Actually, screw that, I’m not sorry.

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

Look man, I am not even a King's fan (I am a Jimmer fan) so I don't really have a dog in this fight. I just think that questioning Tyreke as being the foundation of contending team is legitimate. It isn't just wins and losses or his individual stats either. He doesn't compete hard every night, doesn't show any desire to run any kind of offense and hasn't really shown any improvement in his game since his rookie year. I would be worried if I were a King's fan.

Sad that it takes a non Kings fan to see this. I guess most Kings fans just can't see past the blinders of being a homer.

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

well.. you are not exactly talking about trading him for chopped liver.. so apparently your opinion of his talent isn't as bad as you make it seem.

i am also pretty frustrated by the lack of development after season 1. and some of that rests sqarely on his shoulders... but alot of it rests on the shoulders of what appears to be currently the worst run franchise in the league. i don't know for sure how far gone Petrie is at this point (and whether he still brings value or not...) but my opiniion on the Maloofs is set in stone at this point. They suck.

I've never questioned his talent. I question his heart, mentality, and consistency.

 

[King Baller]

Say what?

You keep mentioning the root issues of the Kings problems as things you want to discount before anyone can respoind to you Go back and read your posts.

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

You keep mentioning the root issues of the Kings problems as things you want to discount before anyone can respoind to you Go back and read your posts.

If you're talking about my saying I don't want to hear the youth excuse, then I stand by that. Youth is NOT the root issue with this team. I won't deny that it's a factor but it's not nearly as significant as many people are making it out to be. People are basically claiming that losing games by 20+ on a regular basis is OK and nothing to worry about, to be expected even, because they're young and that's just nonsense. They were young last year too but were more competitive than they've been this year.

 

[King Baller]

If you're talking about my saying I don't want to hear the youth excuse, then I stand by that. Youth is NOT the root issue with this team. I won't deny that it's a factor but it's not nearly as significant as many people are making it out to be. People are basically claiming claiming that losing games by 20+ on a regular basis because they're young and that's just nonsense. They were young last year too but were more competitive than they've been this year.

So in your opinion what is causing the blow outs? And don't say effort because I see the fellas sweating

KB

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

So in your opinion what is causing the blow outs? And don't say effort because I see the fellas sweating

KB

Hard to put it down to any one thing, so I’ll just list a few things that I think are the primary causes and ascribe a percentage to them to reflect to what degree I think they’re responsiable.

Tyreke and Thornton not playing well most of the time. At least 50%.

Can’t underestimate how much of a factor these two playing poorly is.

We've seen that when either one of them play well the Kings are decent and when both play well the Kings are actually pretty darn good. But when neither one play well the Kings are garbage. And there’s been far too many games this year where neither of them played well. I know Thorntn has missed some games but Tyreke hasn’t been stepping it up in his absence and that exacerbates the problem.

Not having Dalembert, Hayes for most of the season, or any big man that can really defend the paint. Maybe 25%.

You probably don’t win many more games with Hayes or Dalembert in the lineup but you probably get blown out less often.

Not having a set offense, coaching problems, etc., maybe 15%.

No doubt that’s been a factor

The remaining 10%, a combination of youth, lack of experience, low morale, and role players playing below expectations.

All of those are factors as well but those are all things that could be overcome with consistent play from Tyreke and Thornton and proper coaching.

Westphal is gone so we can’t blame the coach anymore. Well, I guess we could, but it would be lame to do so. Smart is doing as well as anyone could. It’s up to the players now to respond and as two of the teams top players, that responsibility lies largely with Tyreke and Thornton.

I really can’t say any of it is Cousins’ fault because the dude brings it every night. He’s only had maybe two or three bad games all year.

Can’t blame Jimmer because he’s a rookie.

You can blame Salmons, Outlaw, and Garcia for sucking louder than the Hoover manufacturing plant but there again, they’re role players. If Tyreke and Thornton step up, those role players being trash doesn’t hurt nearly as much. And maybe, just maybe, if Tyreke and Thornton play better, the rest of the team follows suit.

 

[King Baller]

Hard to put it down to any one thing, so I’ll just list a few things that I think are the primary causes and ascribe a percentage to them to reflect to what degree I think they’re responsiable.

Tyreke and Thornton not playing well most of the time. At least 50%.

Can’t underestimate how much of a factor these two playing poorly is.

We've seen that when either one of them play well the Kings are decent and when both play well the Kings are actually pretty darn good. But when neither one play well the Kings are garbage. And there’s been far too many games this year where neither of them played well. I know Thorntn has missed some games but Tyreke hasn’t been stepping it up in his absence and that exacerbates the problem.

Not having Dalembert, Hayes for most of the season, or any big man that can really defend the paint. Maybe 25%.

You probably don’t win many more games with Hayes or Dalembert in the lineup but you probably get blown out less often.

Not having a set offense, coaching problems, etc., maybe 15%.

No doubt that’s been a factor

The remaining 10%, a combination of youth, lack of experience, low morale, and role players playing below expectations.

All of those are factors as well but those are all things that could be overcome with consistent play from Tyreke and Thornton and proper coaching.

Westphal is gone so we can’t blame the coach anymore. Well, I guess we could, but it would be lame to do so. Smart is doing as well as anyone could. It’s up to the players now to respond and as two of the teams top players, that responsibility lies largely with Tyreke and Thornton.

I really can’t say any of it is Cousins’ fault because the dude brings it every night. He’s only had maybe two or three bad games all year.

Can’t blame Jimmer because he’s a rookie.

You can blame Salmons, Outlaw, and Garcia for sucking louder than the Hoover manufacturing plant but there again, they’re role players. If Tyreke and Thornton step up, those role players being trash doesn’t hurt nearly as much. And maybe, just maybe, if Tyreke and Thornton play better, the rest of the team follows suit.

Well said, I agree with most of what you stated.

KB

 

[Lockehead]

Cousins/Reke/(?)Thornton could be a great trio... if they develop correctly...

 

[Big Cuz 15]

lol this thread is too much. i had to skip the nonsense bs on alot of the posts. it was that bad. oh, and *YES* i'm a homer!

 

[Uncia03]

Hard to put it down to any one thing, so I’ll just list a few things that I think are the primary causes and ascribe a percentage to them to reflect to what degree I think they’re responsiable.

Tyreke and Thornton not playing well most of the time. At least 50%.

Not having a set offense, coaching problems, etc., maybe 15%.
The remaining 10%, a combination of youth, lack of experience, low morale, and role players playing below expectations.

All of those are factors as well but those are all things that could be overcome with consistent play from Tyreke and Thornton and proper coaching.

You have it backwards.

Tyreke and Thornton not playing well has everything to do with not having a system to play in. Westphal was fired because he tried to implement a system which did not work. The guys tried to play to his flawed system and didn't do well, and the inevitable happened with Westphal getting fired because he could not implement a system which could work.

Now you have a new coach trying to implement a new system while not having practice time to do it. Thornton is now hurt so there is no point in even discussing his performance till he gets healthy and back to playing basketball.

Because we wasted what small amount of pre-season we had trying to learn a system which wasn't going to work it really hurt this team.

At this point I'd say that 70% of the team issues is due to trying to implement a flawed system combined with the coaching change and not having practice time to get a new system developed under a new coach.

The rest of the issues are personnel issues, either injuries (Hayes & Thornton) or bad fit. (Salmons no longer being an NBA player and Jimmer not being ready to step into a back-up PG role)

In my opinion everyone on the team except Salmons and Hayes gets a pass on performance and consistancy until they have a chance to learn Smarts new system. If you don't have a system you're never going to have consistancy, that's just the way basketball works.

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

You have it backwards.

Tyreke and Thornton not playing well has everything to do with not having a system to play in. Westphal was fired because he tried to implement a system which did not work. The guys tried to play to his flawed system and didn't do well, and the inevitable happened with Westphal getting fired because he could not implement a system which could work.

Now you have a new coach trying to implement a new system while not having practice time to do it. Thornton is now hurt so there is no point in even discussing his performance till he gets healthy and back to playing basketball.

Because we wasted what small amount of pre-season we had trying to learn a system which wasn't going to work it really hurt this team.

At this point I'd say that 70% of the team issues is due to trying to implement a flawed system combined with the coaching change and not having practice time to get a new system developed under a new coach.

The rest of the issues are personnel issues, either injuries (Hayes & Thornton) or bad fit. (Salmons no longer being an NBA player and Jimmer not being ready to step into a back-up PG role)

In my opinion everyone on the team except Salmons and Hayes gets a pass on performance and consistancy until they have a chance to learn Smarts new system. If you don't have a system you're never going to have consistancy, that's just the way basketball works.

I said lack of system was part of it. I just think it's a smaller part of the problem than most believe it to be.

 

[IfAt1st]

LOL
Rookie is sick of hearing the youth "excuse", ans I'm sick of hearing the coaching/system excuse.

Coach Smart has repeatedly said that he is using the simplest system possible.
How long do you think it should take to have his players pick up on such a "system"? Hell, to show ANY inklings of what to do and where to be on the court? How long does it take to learn to stay with your man, keep your eye on him, and get back on defense? Why shouldn't these players already know the VAST majority of what smart is supposedly teaching them?

How long do you think preseason was this year for everyone else in the league?

At what point do you conclude there's something seriously wrong with this team, if they don't show enough evidence that they can do the basic things that are required of NBA players?

 

[gunks]

Where is the all of the above option?

Coaching: last six years were a wash, Westphal was a terrible teacher and didnt have a system, but was still an upgrade over the previous 4 guys. WTF Petrie?!! Now we have Smart, who is having to implement something simple enough to be grasped by our players. To make matters worse, there is less practice time in the compressed schedule. One of our stars (Reke) is having to learn a new role and his play is suffering as a result.

Youth: we are the youngest team in the league. None of these players have had a good chance to learn the game/roles on the team. That again, is on Westphal/lockout schedule.

Team build: is frankly put, terrible. We have a TON of blackholes on the roster, and our only playmaker is a 5'8 rookie. Ouch. Also..Youth.

Schedule: Is nasty. We've actually done OK at home and against fellow bad teams. Problem is, we've been playing the heavyweights on their home turf. With painful and painfully predictable results. We should see less blowouts when our schedule gets easier.

Managment/Ownership: Maloofs are broke. And GP has lost his touch (ages ago). That means we have 3rd stringers getting overpaid to start, and suck. Salmons is our highest paid player 'nuff said.

Our big 3 has a TON of potential. Thing is that potential isnt divided evenly. I'd say Cousins has about 65% of it, Reke the rest. Thornton is a 6th man on a playoff team.

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

LOL
Rookie is sick of hearing the youth "excuse", ans I'm sick of hearing the coaching/system excuse.

Coach Smart has repeatedly said that he is using the simplest system possible.
How long do you think it should take to have his players pick up on such a "system"? Hell, to show ANY inklings of what to do and where to be on the court? How long does it take to learn to stay with your man, keep your eye on him, and get back on defense? Why shouldn't these players already know the VAST majority of what smart is supposedly teaching them?

How long do you think preseason was this year for everyone else in the league?

At what point do you conclude there's something seriously wrong with this team, if they don't show enough evidence that they can do the basic things that are required of NBA players?

Finally a post i can relate to. I don't know how long you wait either but in my opinion, time is running out. We can't suck the rest of this year and just go into next season patiently waiting for them to finally turn the corner again. If things don't improve drastically in the second half of this season, something big needs to change and it needs to happen fast.

 

[Hoovtrain]

So in your opinion what is causing the blow outs? And don't say effort because I see the fellas sweating

KB

Going to chime in if you don't mind. Unfortunately, i think it comes down to having a team full of players with incredibly low BB IQ's. I am not sure i have ever witnessed such a dumb team (BB IQ wise). It is so disheartening to watch. I also think this is a poorly constructed team, which is also contributing to the problem. The organization is just a mess from top to bottom.

 

[mac]

Finally a post i can relate to. I don't know how long you wait either but in my opinion, time is running out. We can't suck the rest of this year and just go into next season patiently waiting for them to finally turn the corner again. If things don't improve drastically in the second half of this season, something big needs to change and it needs to happen fast.

Many of us feel the same way. It's just that our "something big that needs to change" refers to Salmons.

And for the record, there's a difference between questioning Tyreke's ability to lead the team and just giving up and saying he's a bust a few games into his 3rd season. There were fans who last year already said they thought that DMC would end up the true best player/ leader of the team. Ok I'm done trying to argue with you.