Christie’s Kings

Caccia said:
What do you see as the way forward? I am no armchair GM.
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My preferred move is to bring in someone who is best playing the 4 and fits with this roster. Not someone who is a 3, but can play "position less 4". I want Murray to be able to play more 3, because I think it would help his game.

Beyond that, they need to figure out where they really stand with Fox going forward. Are they going to commit to a huge contract with him as their franchise player, or try another direction to put together a really good fit in an effort to become a contender and elevate someone else as team leader/franchise player. I have my opinions on what I would do here, but it doesn't really matter, since I'll be rooting for our guys no matter which direction the front office decides to go
 
ShastaKingsFan said:
My preferred move is to bring in someone who is best playing the 4 and fits with this roster. Not someone who is a 3, but can play "position less 4". I want Murray to be able to play more 3, because I think it would help his game.

Beyond that, they need to figure out where they really stand with Fox going forward. Are they going to commit to a huge contract with him as their franchise player, or try another direction to put together a really good fit in an effort to become a contender and elevate someone else as team leader/franchise player. I have my opinions on what I would do here, but it doesn't really matter, since I'll be rooting for our guys no matter which direction the front office decides to go
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I don't know, Keegan is starting to show that versatility helping at the rim now and moving someone like DeMar to SG next to Fox is a huge question mark. If you put someone like say Cam Johnson next to Keegan that's two players almost entirely dependent on shot opportunities being created for them and most assuredly teams will pack the paint on Fox and DeMar. This team might be right back to being completely reliant on Domas to work DHO's. Keegan being near the paint is a big boost when one of Keon or Carter has been on POA. It makes a lot more sense to have someone like Keegan defensively at the 4 if you're switching which the Kings have fully committed to now so unless that "4" is another player who can reliably switch, shoot, and create shots for themselves you're probably hurting yourself. Maybe not as much defensively since Domas has been so good when blitzing lately. Traditionally a true PF was there to help on the boards, but the Kings are already top 10 in rebound percentage so that's not really a major issue. Collins could indeed be a decent test run if it didn't cost much. He can go and get his here and there.
 
SacTownKid said:
I don't know, Keegan is starting to show that versatility helping at the rim now and moving someone like DeMar to SG next to Fox is a huge question mark. If you put someone like say Cam Johnson next to Keegan that's two players almost entirely dependent on shot opportunities being created for them and most assuredly teams will pack the paint on Fox and DeMar. This team might be right back to being completely reliant on Domas to work DHO's. Keegan being near the paint is a big boost when one of Keon or Carter has been on POA. It makes a lot more sense to have someone like Keegan defensively at the 4 if you're switching which the Kings have fully committed to now so unless that "4" is another player who can reliably switch, shoot, and create shots for themselves you're probably hurting yourself. Maybe not as much defensively since Domas has been so good when blitzing lately. Traditionally a true PF was there to help on the boards, but the Kings are already top 10 in rebound percentage so that's not really a major issue. Collins could indeed be a decent test run if it didn't cost much. He can go and get his here and there.
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I wouldn't make the move for a 4 to change the starting lineup now. Would be a possibility for next season, if they were to decide to bring DeRozan off the bench and lower his minutes a bit, to help extend his productivity through the length of his contract
 
ShastaKingsFan said:
I wouldn't make the move for a 4 to change the starting lineup now. Would be a possibility for next season, if they were to decide to bring DeRozan off the bench and lower his minutes a bit, to help extend his productivity through the length of his contract
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If the Kings are actually interested in Collins they might see him as a player that's better suited than Lyles to play next to Keegan or back him up. It makes total sense and Collins could go back to being a 6th man and take over Lyles' spot. The tough part for Monte is as the saying goes, if it ain't broke don't fix it and the Kings mysteriously look far from broke at the moment. They might be though if the Kings starters burn up. The Kings don't have to win every game, but they could be one fatigue related 4-5 game losing streak away from being right back on the outside looking in. Which is another issue if they intend on adding another major piece to the puzzle, do you risk setbacks fitting them in? Collins does seem like a safe bet all the way around. No long term contract, slides right into playing pick and roll. There's no real reason it shouldn't work. He's not a great defender by any means of course.
 
SacTownKid said:
If the Kings are actually interested in Collins they might see him as a player that's better suited than Lyles to play next to Keegan or back him up. It makes total sense and Collins could go back to being a 6th man and take over Lyles' spot. The tough part for Monte is as the saying goes, if it ain't broke don't fix it and the Kings mysteriously look far from broke at the moment. They might be though if the Kings starters burn up. The Kings don't have to win every game, but they could be one fatigue related 4-5 game losing streak away from being right back on the outside looking in. Which is another issue if they intend on adding another major piece to the puzzle, do you risk setbacks fitting them in? Collins does seem like a safe bet all the way around. No long term contract, slides right into playing pick and roll. There's no real reason it shouldn't work. He's not a great defender by any means of course.
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To me the recent success and big change in play is not a mystery. They've now got a coach that really resonates with them and is getting the most out of their talent as a whole. If there is one statement that highlights this the most, it is this one....."play through your mistakes, get it back on the next play."

When you have a coach who truly believes in your talent and value to the team, hearing a statement like that allows a greater chance to reach your full potential. Doug Christie is the true leader of this team. Not every good team has had a head coach like that, but this one now does
 
ShastaKingsFan said:
To me the recent success and big change in play is not a mystery. They've now got a coach that really resonates with them and is getting the most out of their talent as a whole. If there is one statement that highlights this the most, it is this one....."play through your mistakes, get it back on the next play."

When you have a coach who truly believes in your talent and value to the team, hearing a statement like that allows a greater chance to reach your full potential. Doug Christie is the true leader of this team. Not every good team has had a head coach like that, but this one now does
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Exactly, which then must mean Monte isn't a total idiot right? lol. His roster wasn't actually broke to begin with.
 
LoungeLizard said:
I’m convinced the Kings could go on a crazy championship run and sactowndog would still be on here spouting off about our poor DRTG and Monte’s failure to add length. :p
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You would be incorrect. Because if we were playing consistent top 10 defense (which it would take to go on a Championship run) against other play-off teams that would be evidence our roster could compete.

currently we have no evidence our team could do it or Portland could do it.
 
sactowndog said:
You would be incorrect. Because if we were playing consistent top 10 defense (which it would take to go on a Championship run) against other play-off teams that would be evidence our roster could compete.

currently we have no evidence our team could do it or Portland could do it.
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I don't know where things stand after the Nuggets game, but prior to that, the Kings were ranked 9th in defensive rating under Doug Christie, and posted a 10-2 record in that span. Can they continue to play top-10 defense the rest of the season? I'm not sure. But to say "we have no evidence" is rather disingenuous. The evidence is literally staring you right in the face. The Kings fired Mike Brown. They named Doug Christie their interim head coach. They're 10-3 since the change, and largely because they've been playing top-10 defense under DC. It may be a small sample size, but it remains evidence.
 
Padrino said:
I don't know where things stand after the Nuggets game, but prior to that, the Kings were ranked 9th in defensive rating under Doug Christie, and posted a 10-2 record in that span. Can they continue to play top-10 defense the rest of the season? I'm not sure. But to say "we have no evidence" is rather disingenuous. The evidence is literally staring you right in the face. The Kings fired Mike Brown. They named Doug Christie their interim head coach. They're 10-3 since the change, and largely because they've been playing top-10 defense under DC. It may be a small sample size, but it remains evidence.
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Given that the Kings were also a top-10 defense for the last 2 months of last season, "more minutes for Keon Ellis" seems to correlate better to me as the driving force between the defensive improvement. And also Devin Carter taking rotation minutes away from Kevin Huerter since his return. Or put another way, if all we're talking about is defense than the coaching change may just be incidental.

Where I think the Doug Christie effect is more visible is in how much better the offense is flowing under his leadership. And I also think Monte is ultimately the guy who is going to determine if the Kings actually have a top 10 defense now or if they're merely small sample size All-Stars. Sooner or later we're going to face a team with size up front and this roster as presently constructed just does not have the bodies to defend tall lineups.
 
hrdboild said:
Given that the Kings were also a top-10 defense for the last 2 months of last season, "more minutes for Keon Ellis" seems to correlate better to me as the driving force between the defensive improvement. And also Devin Carter taking rotation minutes away from Kevin Huerter since his return. Or put another way, if all we're talking about is defense than the coaching change may just be incidental.

Where I think the Doug Christie effect is more visible is in how much better the offense is flowing under his leadership. And I also think Monte is ultimately the guy who is going to determine if the Kings actually have a top 10 defense now or if they're merely small sample size All-Stars. Sooner or later we're going to face a team with size up front and this roster as presently constructed just does not have the bodies to defend tall lineups.
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Yeah, I can't remember what they were and a butt kicking like the Nuggets game can alter things, but last I checked the clear best defensive net ratings of the main rotational units had Keon and Carter appearing to be clear difference makers in the 5 man stats. The starters with Monk and Fox together have been horrendous on defense since Christie took over at 115. Carter in two of the main units he's played with are 15 points under that, which obviously is a really small sample but a good sign. Ellis is in some of the best defensive units and some of the worst so it's hit and miss. There isn't a lot of time yet though so the numbers aren't full proof but the starters have played so many minutes under Christie them being kind of bad on defense is probably heading towards a solid assumption at this point. The starters ratings would put them in the bottom 5 in the league on defense. Monk and Ellis in the backcourt would be by far number 1 in the league. I don't think Carter has really even played with the starters but subbing Domas out for Lyles and Carter next to Fox would be number 1 also.
 
It appears that Christie has some leftover detritus from the Brown era with which to deal. One is the attempt to start the game with a big offensive show and make the other team play catch-up. That approach doesn't seem to work consistently and, rather, the Kings often find themselves in the catch-up position. Giving up 40, or so, points in the first quarter can be devastating (although the Kings work hard to recover). Remedy: Start Keon Ellis alongside Fox. Keon has sufficient offense to go along with his defense to stabilize the opening game.

A second, but related, issue is that Brown, in desperation, started Monk. An emboldened Monk will not react well to going to the bench. Monk needs to realize that his biggest and most effective value to this team is in his role as offensive reinforcement. Much as military exercises always have a strong reserve to come in and finish the effort or to boost a failing conflict. Monk has just the skill set to accomplish that vital boost. He is going to have to put team before personal achievement. As of now, the Kings have no reliable, consistent, and significant second team attack.

So a combination of two of the four guards, Fox, Monk, Ellis, Carter paired in order Fox/Ellis, Monk/Carter, then later a mishmash of what combination is productive that game, should maximize effectiveness.

These suggestions have been oft discussed on the forum. This quick summary and review will further alert the team to the proper path since the Kings' coaches must read this forum for the wisdom found herein. (As does Monte when trade proposals are mentioned.)
 
Padrino said:
I don't know where things stand after the Nuggets game, but prior to that, the Kings were ranked 9th in defensive rating under Doug Christie, and posted a 10-2 record in that span. Can they continue to play top-10 defense the rest of the season? I'm not sure. But to say "we have no evidence" is rather disingenuous. The evidence is literally staring you right in the face. The Kings fired Mike Brown. They named Doug Christie their interim head coach. They're 10-3 since the change, and largely because they've been playing top-10 defense under DC. It may be a small sample size, but it remains evidence.
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most of that evidence occurred when Fox was not playing. So you are correct the evidence is staring someone in the face. Since Fox came back and replaced Keon in the starting line-up we have had a 22nd rating over 6 games.

pretty stark difference. We shall see what happens today.
 
sactowndog said:
most of that evidence occurred when Fox was not playing. So you are correct the evidence is staring someone in the face. Since Fox came back and replaced Keon in the starting line-up we have had a 22nd rating over 6 games.

pretty stark difference. We shall see what happens today.
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Your framing, as usual, illustrates your particular biases. This suggests that the Kings need to start Keon Ellis, not that the Kings need to do anything in particular with Fox. Malik's best role on this team is as a sixth man, and he should be coming off the bench so that Ellis and all of his obvious impact is seeing more court time.

When Mike Brown elevated Malik into the starting unit, I said it was a "break glass in case of emergency" kind of move that would crater the Kings' bench production and would be detrimental to locker room cohesion if it didn't work out and Malik had to be "demoted" back to the bench. Malik has certainly played well as a starter, but the Kings' bench production has absolutely withered, and they need more defensive intensity in the starting unit, defensive intensity that's sitting right there in Keon Ellis.

Starting Monk was an unfortunate parting gift from Mike Brown, in my estimation, because it put DC between a rock and a hard place. But now he's the Kings' head coach, and he'll need to manage the egos involved. That comes with the job. It's a rotation issue that could be solved by moving Monk back into his super sixth man role, and starting Fox/Ellis, who make for a strong defensive duo.
 
Since I spent an hour looking these up and todays game could be relevant


The_Jamal said:
Can you prove, statistically, we are better offensively with Fox off the floor?
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I again don’t think that was my point. My point was by at least some metrics we are better offensively with
Monk Keon than Fox Keon

that said here are some numbers
Off Rat
Fox Keon. 117.9
Monk Keon 115.8

asst %
Fox Keon 57.5
Monk Keon 64.6

Ast Ratio
Fox Keon 17.8
Monk Keon 19.5

pts
Fox Ellis 30.7
Monk Ellis. 34.2

FG %
Fox Ellis 48.5
Monk Ellis 48.3

3P%
Fox Ellis 35.0
Monk Ellis 34.5
This one surprised me as both Monk and Ellis are better % 3 point shooters than Fox. I think Ellis coming in with Huerter is dragging this down.

To control looked at 5 man Keon / DeRozan/ Sabonis/ Murray line-ups trading off Fox and Monk
Off Rating
W Fox 130.6
W Monk 120.9

asst %
W Fox 59.0
W Monk 63.8

asst Ratio
W Fox 19.9
W Monk 20.2

TS%
w Fox 62.5%
W Monk 59.9%

Pace
W Fox. 96.99
W Monk 99.24

PIE
W Fox 56.2
W Monk 62.2

Some of these numbers surprise me like shooting % better with Fox and Pace better with Monk. PIE is impacted by defense where Monk Ellis is significantly better than Fox Ellis but that could be impacted by competition.

today will be interesting if Fox is out. Also this is just one side of a cost benefit analysis. You have to also add what you get for Fox versus Monk.
 
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Padrino said:
Your framing, as usual, illustrates your particular biases. This suggests that the Kings need to start Keon Ellis, not that the Kings need to do anything in particular with Fox. Malik's best role on this team is as a sixth man, and he should be coming off the bench so that Ellis and all of his obvious impact is seeing more court time.

When Mike Brown elevated Malik into the starting unit, I said it was a "break glass in case of emergency" kind of move that would crater the Kings' bench production and would be detrimental to locker room cohesion if it didn't work out and Malik had to be "demoted" back to the bench. Malik has certainly played well as a starter, but the Kings' bench production has absolutely withered, and they need more defensive intensity in the starting unit, defensive intensity that's sitting right there in Keon Ellis.

Starting Monk was an unfortunate parting gift from Mike Brown, in my estimation, because it put DC between a rock and a hard place. But now he's the Kings' head coach, and he'll need to manage the egos involved. That comes with the job. It's a rotation issue that could be solved by moving Monk back into his super sixth man role, and starting Fox/Ellis, who make for a strong defensive duo.
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Monk had been amazing starting. I dont understand this take. He's look consistently better than fox during this streak in all phases. Take the name off monk and put foxes name on it and we would be talking allstar.

Fox has not earned all of this cant be touched stardom he is receiving over here. Man is a 1 time sub allstar being treated like Kyre Irving.

If the data says we are better with monk and Ellis starting then believe it and roll with it.sure monk looks good as 6th man, so would fox. Because they are staring level guards.

One game monk sat out we got our doors blown off. If we took our glasses off we could see Fox for what he is. A great Talent who plays when he wants and Gambles on defense to the determination of the team
 


From 9 days ago, no idea if this has been posted. Amick towards the end of this conversation says he heard from around the league that there were rumors the organization wanted DC for a long time. He implies that maybe even when MB got hired the org (presumably Vivek & ownership) wanted Doug but the FO pushed for their guy instead (MB). Altho given Doug's name never came up when finalist for the jobs were announced, it sounds like Vivek / ownership wasn't pushing too hard other than wanting to keep Doug on the staff, esp since they gave Brown that massive extension anyways.
 
Padrino said:
Your framing, as usual, illustrates your particular biases. This suggests that the Kings need to start Keon Ellis, not that the Kings need to do anything in particular with Fox. Malik's best role on this team is as a sixth man, and he should be coming off the bench so that Ellis and all of his obvious impact is seeing more court time.

When Mike Brown elevated Malik into the starting unit, I said it was a "break glass in case of emergency" kind of move that would crater the Kings' bench production and would be detrimental to locker room cohesion if it didn't work out and Malik had to be "demoted" back to the bench. Malik has certainly played well as a starter, but the Kings' bench production has absolutely withered, and they need more defensive intensity in the starting unit, defensive intensity that's sitting right there in Keon Ellis.

Starting Monk was an unfortunate parting gift from Mike Brown, in my estimation, because it put DC between a rock and a hard place. But now he's the Kings' head coach, and he'll need to manage the egos involved. That comes with the job. It's a rotation issue that could be solved by moving Monk back into his super sixth man role, and starting Fox/Ellis, who make for a strong defensive duo.
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DC being able to navigate the keon/monk situation would tell me a lot about how he manages a locker room. It's the right move basketball wise, but this isn't 2k; egos, chemistry are all are real thing HCs have to be good at balancing on the roster.
 
captain bill said:


From 9 days ago, no idea if this has been posted. Amick towards the end of this conversation says he heard from around the league that there were rumors the organization wanted DC for a long time. He implies that maybe even when MB got hired the org (presumably Vivek & ownership) wanted Doug but the FO pushed for their guy instead (MB). Altho given Doug's name never came up when finalist for the jobs were announced, it sounds like Vivek / ownership wasn't pushing too hard other than wanting to keep Doug on the staff, esp since they gave Brown that massive extension anyways.
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Ham said Vevik wanted Christie when we hired Walton I believe he’s lucky he’s getting it now after getting experience and not then with no experience and a bad team
 
Rob-The-Great said:
Monk had been amazing starting. I dont understand this take. He's look consistently better than fox during this streak in all phases. Take the name off monk and put foxes name on it and we would be talking allstar.

Fox has not earned all of this cant be touched stardom he is receiving over here. Man is a 1 time sub allstar being treated like Kyre Irving.

If the data says we are better with monk and Ellis starting then believe it and roll with it.sure monk looks good as 6th man, so would fox. Because they are staring level guards.

One game monk sat out we got our doors blown off. If we took our glasses off we could see Fox for what he is. A great Talent who plays when he wants and Gambles on defense to the determination of the team
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Monk is an excellent player, but he's not the same caliber of talent that Fox is. He just isn't. @twslam07 has posted impact stats elsewhere to illustrate how much more Fox is able to tilt the game than Monk. And that's not me trashing Malik. I'm a huge fan. I thought he was a shrewd and awesome acquisition initially, and resigning him on a bargain deal was just icing on the cake. I love Malik. But takes like this drive me crazy. Kings fans so regularly seem to revel in running the team's stars out of town simply because Sacramento stars aren't in the league's uppermost tier of talent. No, Fox isn't going to usurp the entirety of basketball itself with generational skill like a Nikola Jokic or a Luka Doncic. But that's why you go out and get guys like Monk and Demar, offensive weapons who can pick up the slack when Fox isn't on.

Also, it's so weird to castigate Fox for taking gambles on defense while elevating Monk as a Fox replacement when Monk himself is a massive gambler on both ends of the floor, often to the detriment of the team. He frequently lunges after the ball rather than staying in front of his man, throws errant passes with far too much flash, and takes shots out of the flow of the offense and heat checks with abandon. Again, I love Malik. Love him. His swagger is not to be denied. But Kings fans need to recognize how problematic it would be to dump Fox without getting back a creator and shotmaker of his caliber who can bend the defense to his will.
 
Padrino said:
Monk is an excellent player, but he's not the same caliber of talent that Fox is. He just isn't. @twslam07 has posted impact stats elsewhere to illustrate how much more Fox is able to tilt the game than Monk. And that's not me trashing Malik. I'm a huge fan. I thought he was a shrewd and awesome acquisition initially, and resigning him on a bargain deal was just icing on the cake. I love Malik. But takes like this drive me crazy. Kings fans so regularly seem to revel in running the team's stars out of town simply because Sacramento stars aren't in the league's uppermost tier of talent. No, Fox isn't going to usurp the entirety of basketball itself with generational skill like a Nikola Jokic or a Luka Doncic. But that's why you go out and get guys like Monk and Demar, offensive weapons who can pick up the slack when Fox isn't on.

Also, it's so weird to castigate Fox for taking gambles on defense while elevating Monk as a Fox replacement when Monk himself is a massive gambler on both ends of the floor, often to the detriment of the team. He frequently lunges after the ball rather than staying in front of his man, throws errant passes with far too much flash, and takes shots out of the flow of the offense and heat checks with abandon. Again, I love Malik. Love him. His swagger is not to be denied. But Kings fans need to recognize how problematic it would be to dump Fox without getting back a creator and shotmaker of his caliber who can bend the defense to his will.
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I believe you said it best in your post.

1.Monk is a bargain where as fox is on a max contract

2. Monk signed for peanuts to stay with Sac where Fox is threatening to leave if he doesn't get what he wants.

3. To say that Monk is more talented than Fox, I agree is nuts. That's not what I'm saying, what I said was he was playing much better than him as of late, witch gives me hope that the drop off wouldn't be very extreme. We could use that to help in other areas we are clearly lacking.

It's not always about the most talented player, everyone knows Fox takes quarters off. When you are at the head of the ship you feel the most wind, this is just facts. You can't blame kings fans for wanting change at the top when there team has lost for 20+ years sir.

Kings fans run stars out? What stars? We've haven't even had any. This is why we praise fox when he's hasn't earned anything. I see people comparing him to Dame and Mitchell regularly as if Fox's 1 all star appearances is on par with these guys who have taken there teams deep into playoffs.

I have 2 Fox Jerseys. I don't hate the guy, all I'm saying is his attitude and inconsistent play is no longer someone I want at the head of the snake. I hope I'm wrong and Fox leads us to glory. He's a King until he isn't as far as I'm concerned
 
Fox is obviously a better scorer and defender.

But Malik consistantly elevates the team around him (especially Domas). Fox only does sometimes when he feels like it. Nights like tonight (when his hand was clearly bothering him) i would of loved too see Fox drop 12 + dimes. But instead we saw tough shot after tough shot. Its frustrating af to watch.

I also think Malik potentially has another level to his game that is untapped. If he were ever given that starting PG role maybe he reaches that level? Weve seen Monk reach Fox levels of scoring in flashes many times. He has that skill within him, at times he looks unstoppable. It just comes down to consistancy.

Anyways i wouldnt worry about these last two losses. Both teams are juggernauts and we ran into em at the wrong time. Loving the resillience lately, get these next two and we good.
 
OptimusRhyme said:
Fox is obviously a better scorer and defender.

But Malik consistantly elevates the team around him (especially Domas). Fox only does sometimes when he feels like it. Nights like tonight (when his hand was clearly bothering him) i would of loved too see Fox drop 12 + dimes. But instead we saw tough shot after tough shot. Its frustrating af to watch.

I also think Malik potentially has another level to his game that is untapped. If he were ever given that starting PG role maybe he reaches that level? Weve seen Monk reach Fox levels of scoring in flashes many times. He has that skill within him, at times he looks unstoppable. It just comes down to consistancy.

Anyways i wouldnt worry about these last two losses. Both teams are juggernauts and we ran into em at the wrong time. Loving the resillience lately, get these next two and we good.
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Agreed on the monk part he’s showing he could be a 20/7 starting PG which is good. What these last two games showed us is what we already knew whether you chose to believe it or turn a blind eye to it. We need wings theres levels to this, Jrue/White work cause they’re unique but also are surrounded by Brown and two unicorns in porzingis and Tatum who can practically defend 1-5. We had people mind boggling bringing up OKC their players aren’t all above 6’5 and they have another unicorn in Chet. We are small and got smaller
 
Have the Kings run out of the "new coach bounce" with Christie? The hustle level has dropped noticeably since the Wizards game and defense has been sub par the past few games. The bad habit of giving up large first quarter deficits has reared up again. It's time for Christie to stem the rot and find more time for the hustling guys. Also, can we please stop reverting to the "give up open corner threes" defensive strategy?
 
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