Carmichael Dave on Fresno Radio - trade Martin?

In further defense of CD statements (and this comes from a guy who loves Kmart and sees him as a very bright spot), a trade involving Kmart could make a lot of sense for the Kings.

First, as mentioned previously, he is one of the few players on the Kings coveted by other teams. The only way you can pull-off a trade is to truly get the interest of another team. Kmart has this possibility.

Next, we may already have the 2 guard of the Kings future and he is well kept secret at this point. Of course, I am talking about Douby. This dude has the possibility of being better than Kmart (this is where I duck for cover). Therefore, trade Kmart + K9 and/or SAR and get a high quality, young 4 in return. It is a risk, but one that could make sense for the Kings.
 
kupman said:
Next, we may already have the 2 guard of the Kings future and he is well kept secret at this point. Of course, I am talking about Douby. This dude has the possibility of being better than Kmart (this is where I duck for cover).
Click to expand...


Yes, I think you'd better. ;)

At the point you are advocating pursuing trades for Kevin because of faith in our 6'3" 175lb 2.8ppg scoring rookie backup...let's just not, shall we? :rolleyes:
 
kupman said:
In further defense of CD statements (and this comes from a guy who loves Kmart and sees him as a very bright spot), a trade involving Kmart could make a lot of sense for the Kings.

First, as mentioned previously, he is one of the few players on the Kings coveted by other teams. The only way you can pull-off a trade is to truly get the interest of another team. Kmart has this possibility.

Next, we may already have the 2 guard of the Kings future and he is well kept secret at this point. Of course, I am talking about Douby. This dude has the possibility of being better than Kmart (this is where I duck for cover). Therefore, trade Kmart + K9 and/or SAR and get a high quality, young 4 in return. It is a risk, but one that could make sense for the Kings.
Click to expand...


Which quality young 4 are you talking about?

Man I am so glad that we have so much depth we can just trade 20 PPG scorers and replace them with guys stuck at the end of the bench:eek:
 
I think Douby has a lot of potential as well, but even in the best case scenario where he pans out in a big way it's not going to be as a 2. Ben Gordon and Derek Fisher show the downside of undersized 2s -- they just can't guard guys at the other end.

Douby showed some good court vision and defensive ability, but he's got a long way to go. If he's ever a starter it's going to be at the 1, otherwise he's going to be a Bobby Jackson-esque 1/2 bench sparkplug.
 
BMiller52 I have been hearing about this quality young 4 we can get with just this trade or that trade for the last 3 seasons yet this young 4 has no name or current team.
 
Y'all can just beat-up the idea if you would like. I fully expected it. However, Douby demonstrated more promise in his rookie year that Kmart did in his rookie year. Nobody - and I mean nobody thought Kmart would be a cornerstone of the Kings future his rookie year. Such a person would have been called a lunatic.

Additionally, what candy do you suppose we dangle in front of teams in the name of a trade? Do you think teams are going to come knocking on GPs door asking how they can get their hands on K9, SAR or Miller? Surely not.

Trades are all about risks. I just put this forth as an idea of a risk that might be taken as I think our future is deeper at the 2 spot more than in other position. Do I have a specific 4 in mind? No....it was just an idea in support of CDs earlier statement, which I believe to have merit.
 
everyone seems to miss this point

like any business, you want to maximize your assets. From now on, whenever you think about acquiring a specific player or propose a trade...think of it as this ratio: production/salary. By looking at every player with respect to ratio, it makes sports very simple. you want the most out of a player who makes the least...Kmart's on his rookie contract...you can't get that kind of production for cheaper.

Think about the main assets in the NBA they have High Production/High Salary ratios...those are the kind of players that get traded.

Now look at the trades that Petrie has made, they usually aim to fulfill this ratio. The Peja and Artest trade (well, if you look at artest's productivity in Indiana) was a good trade for both because both players had a reasonably HIGH productivity/Low-moderate Salary ratio. Of course Peja made his big bucks and Ron Artest didnt have a great year. But for the $, it's hard to argue trading guys like Artest, Barbosa, Martin, Chris Paul, T Prince, and the list goes on.
 
kupman said:
Y'all can just beat-up the idea if you would like. I fully expected it. However, Douby demonstrated more promise in his rookie year that Kmart did in his rookie year. Nobody - and I mean nobody thought Kmart would be a cornerstone of the Kings future his rookie year. Such a person would have been called a lunatic.
Click to expand...

Boy, I hate to disagree with you but there were people on this very board who had a lot of faith in Martin's abilities right from the start. I won't go so far as to say "cornerstone of the Kings future" but I will say there were those who kept saying if he could just get some playing time he would surprise people...

Additionally, what candy do you suppose we dangle in front of teams in the name of a trade? Do you think teams are going to come knocking on GPs door asking how they can get their hands on K9, SAR or Miller? Surely not.
Click to expand...

I still don't understand the concept of trading away Martin UNLESS it's for a player who can make us demonstrably better right away - and those don't grow on trees.

Trades are all about risks. I just put this forth as an idea of a risk that might be taken as I think our future is deeper at the 2 spot more than in other position. Do I have a specific 4 in mind? No....it was just an idea in support of CDs earlier statement, which I believe to have merit.
Click to expand...

Yeah, right. The mythical magical power forward theory again. People on message boards can argue about trading Kevin Martin all they like. It's not going to happen unless it's a blockbuster trade. Anything less is just silly. And blockbuster trades are not what Dave was originally talking about regardless of how he may spin it now...
 
Ah, but the teams holding the valued top 4 picks aren't going to do that. That's the whole crux of the matter.
 
VF21 said:
Boy, I hate to disagree with you......

I still don't understand the concept of trading away Martin UNLESS it's for a player who can make us demonstrably better right away - and those don't grow on trees.



Yeah, right. The mythical magical power forward theory again. People on message boards can argue about trading Kevin Martin all they like. It's not going to happen unless it's a blockbuster trade. Anything less is just silly. And blockbuster trades are not what Dave was originally talking about regardless of how he may spin it now...
Click to expand...

I know - you really HATE to disagree with me, VF. I am sure that you will be losing sleep over it tonight.:D

Kmart is not a 'blockbuster' kind of player. Therefore, it will not be a blockbuster deal. He is a good player who has exceeded expectations. Maybe we can get a good 4 in his place....or 3 or 5. It's not the point.

The point being, trades are about risks and you can reap the most profits if you sell high and buy low......Kmart's stock is currently high. He is our greatest resource to go another direction if that is what the franchise decides to do.

That's all really. I am not proposing specific deals....that is GPs job.
 
nbrans said:
I think Douby has a lot of potential as well, but even in the best case scenario where he pans out in a big way it's not going to be as a 2. Ben Gordon and Derek Fisher show the downside of undersized 2s -- they just can't guard guys at the other end.

Douby showed some good court vision and defensive ability, but he's got a long way to go. If he's ever a starter it's going to be at the 1, otherwise he's going to be a Bobby Jackson-esque 1/2 bench sparkplug.
Click to expand...

i see him as a possible gilbert arenas or jason terry type of combo guard that can come off the bench when we need scoring
 
VF21 said:
Ah, but the teams holding the valued top 4 picks aren't going to do that. That's the whole crux of the matter.
Click to expand...


Pretty much. There is the mythical mystery PF we can supposedly trade Kevin for... but I don't see him. We won't get an Amare, Dwight, probably not Okafor, Bosh, etc. Other guys aren't worth dealing Kevin. So who would we go after.
 
VF21 said:
. And blockbuster trades are not what Dave was originally talking about regardless of how he may spin it now...
Click to expand...

How is Dave trying to "spin" anything? That makes it sound like I'm backtracking, or mealy-mouthing. I would think that anything involving Kevin Martin would also include a Thomas or Miller as well. With that much salary going back and forth, and the Kings letting go of their most valued player, it would most likely be a pretty big trade.

The term "blockbuster" is a subjective term, so we may also have differentiating opinions. I would consider a Martin/Miller or Thomas trade would most likely bring back a pretty name player, and possible draft pick. So yeah, maybe not a complete blockbuster, but then again i don't remember using that term.
 
You keep talking in hypotheticals, Dave. If you're going to be specific about Martin packaged with Thomas or Miller, then you need to be just as specific about who you think would bite and whom they would offer in return. Otherwise this is just hypothetical day-dreaming.

Right now, Martin is about the best deal in the NBA considering he's still on his rookie contract for another year. I just do not think Petrie is looking at getting rid of the one real bright spot in order to dump Miller or Thomas. I believe Bibby and Artest are much more likely candidates for some kind of package deal.
 
BMiller52 said:
Pretty much. There is the mythical mystery PF we can supposedly trade Kevin for... but I don't see him. We won't get an Amare, Dwight, probably not Okafor, Bosh, etc. Other guys aren't worth dealing Kevin. So who would we go after.
Click to expand...

That's exactly how I look at it, BMiller52.
 
VF21 said:
You keep talking in hypotheticals, Dave. If you're going to be specific about Martin packaged with Thomas or Miller, then you need to be just as specific about who you think would bite and whom they would offer in return. Otherwise this is just hypothetical day-dreaming.

Right now, Martin is about the best deal in the NBA considering he's still on his rookie contract for another year. I just do not think Petrie is looking at getting rid of the one real bright spot in order to dump Miller or Thomas. I believe Bibby and Artest are much more likely candidates for some kind of package deal.
Click to expand...


Pretty much. It's a lot like saying "man we should trade for KG". Who we going to trade for that player? Just in this scenario/idea the situation is reversed(if that makes any sense... I'm really tired right now). The question becomes "who we going to get for KMart?" And there isn't really an answer. Like I said before and you agreed we're not getting a Howard, Bosh, Stoudemire, or even an Okafor. The rest aren't really worth trading him for.

btw CD you are the only person who I listen to on KHTK, but I'd just like to see some names thrown out before we go "zomg lets trade martin!11oneone!1"
 
Last edited:
BMiller52 said:
Pretty much. It's a lot like saying "man we should trade for KG". Who we going to trade for that player? Just in this scenario/idea the situation is reversed(if that makes any sense... I'm really tired right now). The question becomes "who we going to get for KMart?" And there isn't really an answer. Like I said before and you agreed we're not getting a Howard, Bosh, Stoudemire, or even an Okafor. The rest aren't really worth trading him for.

btw CD you are the only person who I listen to on KHTK, but I'd just like to see some names thrown out before we go "zomg lets trade martin!11oneone!1"
Click to expand...

Jeez. You went to the zomg card? Just because I say something, doesnt mean I'm jumping up and down and screaming it.

I guess I'm not being clear enough, or more to the point, purposely being vague.

I don't generally get into the whole "lets trade x for x" discussion, because with GP, those never come to fruition (the Artest/Peja trade being the glaring exception).

I know boards (and talk shows, including mine sometimes) are filled with x for x conversations, and i'm sure I could bore you with a bunch of realgm salary cap-checked trades, but that's not what I was trying to do.

I came into this conversation to try and clarify my comments about my interview in Fresno. I said that the Kings should definitely listen to offers for Kevin, and that he was their most tradeable piece. The team needs to improve, and to me, their biggest obstacle is cap space, or lack thereof.

Artest has his mental baggage. Miller has a huge contract and looks worn down. Bibby has a huge contract and is coming off a terrible year. Thomas has a huge contract and, well, is Kenny Thomas. Shareef has little value.

Martin has a small contract right now, will look to get paid in the near future, and the gamble is simply whether or not he will get significantly better in the future. I believe he is near his zenith as a player, and his value is sky high. Could I be wrong? Of course. I also believe that Garcia, while not able to match his offense, is going to be the more complete player, giving the Kings the ability to absorb Kevin's loss.

By trading Kevin, the Kings could acquire a starter in return. I'm not thinking in the mold of a superstar, but definitely a good solid contributor. Garcia will help make up for the loss.....but the REAL benefit would be getting out of a Miller/Thomas contract, and opening up the roster for more trades/FA signings.

If you guys want to plug specific players in, go ahead. Bringing up specific names was not what I was looking to do. Both on my show, in Fresno, and the other stations I have spoken on, I simply brought up the point that trading Kevin Martin, at this stage of Kings development, should not be a taboo subject.

I then get barraged (on my show) with people telling me how great Kevin is, and if the Kings should make a move, it should be Shareef, Bibby, Thomas, or Miller. Well guess what? Of course they should, but my point is always that the other team needs to like the taste of the bait in order to bite, and you can't attract flies with napalm. I too, as a Kings fan, would love GP to pull off a robbery like that, but the odds are pretty low.

That's why I am pushing the philosophy that you can make your garbage smell better by coating it with lysol. Kevin Martin=lysol.

That's all I'm saying. Am I being vague? Yes. Its just a philosophy, not a realgm post. That's how this whole thing got started.
 
Last edited:
You keep talking in hypotheticals, Dave. If you're going to be specific about Martin packaged with Thomas or Miller, then you need to be just as specific about who you think would bite and whom they would offer in return. Otherwise this is just hypothetical day-dreaming.
Click to expand...

I do? Why? Isn't pretty much every trade proposal on a message board hypothetical daydreaming by fans of the Kings that just love to talk basketball?

Why can I not just extrapolate on a comment I made that was being spoken about? I'm talking a way of thinking. Simply saying that IMO, Kings fans should not wince at the idea of trading Martin. Trading is negotiation. You have to offer value to receive value.



Right now, Martin is about the best deal in the NBA considering he's still on his rookie contract for another year. I just do not think Petrie is looking at getting rid of the one real bright spot in order to dump Miller or Thomas. I believe Bibby and Artest are much more likely candidates for some kind of package deal.
Click to expand...

I agree that Martin is a great value. That's my point. But GP is constantly looking to build a future for this team. Remember, he also drafted Garcia. He understands (as do we all) that Francisco could be an adequate replacement for Kevin. In fact, you could argue that the 2 spot is the only position on the team the Kings do have an adequate replacement at.

I definitely think GP would MUCH rather trade Mike or Ron, but I'd also rather drive a ferrari. Both those players come with baggage, and GP would be selling low after buying high. That's like saying he'd rather trade Thomas or Miller. Of course he would. And hopefully Billy King or Isiah Thomas will help. But I don't count on it.

IMO sometimes people focus too much on specific names that would come back for Kevin. I understand that, visualization is important. But in today's NBA, cap space and roster maneuverability is as valuable as a guy who puts up real stats. However, its not sexy. No one has a picture of Salary Cap on their wall, no one has Good Contract as their go-to guy on NBA2K7, and Potential Free Agent Signing never gets introduced by Scott Moak. I get that. But my point simply is, getting a starter, ridding yourself of a tie-the-franchise-down contract, maybe getting a pick, and giving GP room to maneuver is never a bad idea. I believe GP works the best when he has room to move, be it through trade or FA signing.

Again, just my .02. I just wasnt aware there were rules on statement clarification. I just want to say I'm happy to be here and the good lord willing I can help the ballclub.

^ The above post has been brought to you by Johnsonville Brats. DON'T USE A FORK!!!!!1111
 
VF21 said:
Ah, but the teams holding the valued top 4 picks aren't going to do that. That's the whole crux of the matter.
Click to expand...


I could see Memphis possibly doing it. Maybe Boston at #5 is another possibility. I'd settle for #5 if the Hawks took Conley. I think both B Wright or Al Horford are possible PF's that the Kings could very well acquire...Ainge is open to moving the #5 for vets...I think noone on our roster should be safe(except of course Francisco Garcia and Justin Williams j/k) to obtain that pick.
 
Last edited:
carmichaeldave said:
By trading Kevin, the Kings could acquire a starter in return. I'm not thinking in the mold of a superstar, but definitely a good solid contributor.

I then get barraged (on my show) with people telling me how great Kevin is, and if the Kings should make a move, it should be Shareef, Bibby, Thomas, or Miller. Well guess what? Of course they should, but my point is always that the other team needs to like the taste of the bait in order to bite, and you can't attract flies with napalm. I too, as a Kings fan, would love GP to pull off a robbery like that, but the odds are pretty low.

That's why I am pushing the philosophy that you can make your garbage smell better by coating it with lysol. Kevin Martin=lysol.

That's all I'm saying. Am I being vague? Yes. Its just a philosophy, not a realgm post. That's how this whole thing got started.
Click to expand...

I do not know how you could be any more clear.
 
I get what you're saying but I just don't see that player out there... and honestly Kenny sucks and he does have a bad contract but it's not a "franchise crippling contract". He makes 7-8 million for 3 more years. The cap is going to be between like 53 and 55 million or something. That's only like 1/8 of your cap. Other teams have their Thomas-like contracts. The Hawks have Speedy Claxton. The Lakers have Radman. The Pacers have Dunleavy and Murphy, both worse than Kenny. It's not Kenny that's killing us, it's the combo of Kenny/Miller/Reef. Reef can be moved for expirings for sure since his contract is small. Use Artest to dump Thomas(it's possible, you just won't get much else back). Then you have 1 bad contract left in Miller and you can still trade Bibby for more youth.
 
BMiller52 said:
I get what you're saying but I just don't see that player out there... and honestly Kenny sucks and he does have a bad contract but it's not a "franchise crippling contract". He makes 7-8 million for 3 more years. The cap is going to be between like 53 and 55 million or something. That's only like 1/8 of your cap. Other teams have their Thomas-like contracts. The Hawks have Speedy Claxton. The Lakers have Radman. The Pacers have Dunleavy and Murphy, both worse than Kenny. It's not Kenny that's killing us, it's the combo of Kenny/Miller/Reef. Reef can be moved for expirings for sure since his contract is small. Use Artest to dump Thomas(it's possible, you just won't get much else back). Then you have 1 bad contract left in Miller and you can still trade Bibby for more youth.
Click to expand...

Reef moving could be possible, although still a challenge. Miller is infinitely more tradeable than Kenny because of the position he plays, and his history. We are still talking about a two time all star, member of the US olympic team. But no one really cares about that when they see how much he's owed.

Good luck finding a team that will take Kenny and THREE more years of contract, PLUS Artest and his impending free agency and baggage. That to me is completely impossible, and not going to happen.
 
in my serious opinion, i dont really think that kevin martin is a superstar type of player and will never be. we are going to go nowhere without a superstar because no one ever does. he is very valuable trade bait and can be packaged to help the kings get a superstar
 
jon e said:
in my serious opinion, i dont really think that kevin martin is a superstar type of player and will never be. we are going to go nowhere without a superstar because no one ever does. he is very valuable trade bait and can be packaged to help the kings get a superstar
Click to expand...

And again, sure. But who? How? Who gives one up for Kevin? That's the scenario I am willing to burn him up as an asset for, and I think most would. But that's going to be a longshot. And the suggestion that he be traded jsut to help us move contracts is just over the top. All that moving contracts does is free up cap space. All that freeing up cap space is good for is signing talented players off the free market. But at the point that you have already traded away your most talented young player just to get the capspace to be a player in the free agent market, its unlikely you are going to do better with the free agents. And you are almost inevitably going to have to overpay them because of the market competition.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

V
What should a good NBA GM know - and when should he/she know it ? (A LONG read - be warned)
2
Replies
53
Views
3K
Noble
Noble
S
HOU pursuing trade for Koufos
2
Replies
58
Views
3K
swisshh
S
Blob
The Misadventures of Vlade
Replies
22
Views
2K
Blob
Blob
ockingsfan
  • Locked
Breaking down the logic for the DMC Trade and the Kings Future
2 3
Replies
83
Views
8K
Telemachus
Telemachus
VF21
So God made a Kings Fan by Carmichael Dave
Replies
1
Views
690
VF21
VF21
Back
Top