Can Kings Trade for Amare Stoudamire

[Purple Reign]

Apparently Amare Stoudamire is becoming an issue down in Phoenix. http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/story/106019

Based on some of the comments of this story, Stoudamire is falling out of favor in Phoenix. My questions are:

1. Would we want Stoudamire (my answer is a resounding yes)?
2. Can he be a cornerstone for your franchise?
3. And is it even possible that the Kings in the future can put together something to get him?

I thought that Phoenix should have traded him before the season started. It is clear that the window of opportunity is rapidly shutting for the Suns. Their chemistry is not very good, and it seems to revolve around an issue between Amare, Nash and Marion. I don't know what it is or could be, but based on Nash's comments he seems to think that there is some type of cancer on the team.

 

[NoBonus]

Hmmm... talented big man with a bum knee... seems like we've gone down that path before... but why not. Unfortunately, the Kings would need to trade volumes of young talent to get him.

 

[LPKingsFan]

I'd trade Martin for him, but salaries would be a nightmare. You know? This is when having a certain $19 million expiring contract would have been nice...

 

[91sickness]

I'd trade Martin for him, but salaries would be a nightmare. You know? This is when having a certain $19 million expiring contract would have been nice...

Amen to that. The Kings downhill slide all started when that guy we used to call our franchise player was shipped outta town for 3 god awful players who did nothing for us what so ever. Petrie has made some genius moves but to this day I still cannot believe that trade happened.

 

[Bricklayer]

Those rumblings are always interesting -- would top Gasol as the best young big potentially available. And if we just didn't happen to be in their division we might almsot be able to pull it off.

Would cost us Kevin of course, which would be unfortunate since both of those guys like to run run run (and not play much D) and so would be the natural match. But I see no way it could be done without involving him. The problme then becomes two-fold, as first, you somehow have to get the Suns back a big they can at passably plug in with Amare gone, and b) Kevin's salary is tiny now but balloons after this season, making it hard to match a guy like Amare. Add in lots of salary along wiht Kevin, and then next year it destroys the Suns cap and throws them way over the luxury tax threshhold.

Kevin, Mikki presumably as the big (Nash could make him look good as a patch)..then you have to struggle on up to match salaries. Could do it a lot easier if you combined Mikki and Salmons + a Douby or Cisco or somebody, but that's not going to be enough (although the Suns used to really like Salmons) unless you throw in your #1 pick. Could do it straight out moneywise + other with Kevin/Salmons/Mikki, but presumably you'd really like to keep one OG or the other.

Still hard to see the Suns actually moving him barring complete meltdown until the offseason -- would assume that they are going to give this team one more shot after the close call last year, then make changes over the summer if they come up short again.

 

[beb0p]

The chance of Amare being moved is somewhere between slim and none. And the chance of us landing him in the almost unthinkable scenario that the Sun trade him is between none and never.

Even if (BIG IF) the Suns trade Amare, we won't be able to outbid Chicago. Period.

.

 

[nbrans]

Guys, we really can't trade Kevin Martin for the foreseeable future unless a team with cap space (basically nobody) jumps in the game or it's a fantastically complicated trade. He's a poison pill player for cap purposes since he signed the extension. http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm

Here's basically how it works. From the Kings' perspective, his outgoing salary would be his current salary of $1.8 million, meaning we couldn't take on more than about $2 million in salary if we trade Martin alone. Meanwhile, his figure in cap purposes for the other team is the average of this year's salary and the average salary of his extension. Since that is $55 million, it's $1.8 + $55 / six years, or $9.46 million.

So basically, a trade would have to make up that $8 million difference, either by sending salary to a team under the cap for nothing in return or with a trade exception, in order to get the salaries to match. And that's not going to happen.

As an example, here's what a potential Martin/Stoudemire trade would look like:

Sacramento outgoing:
Martin ($1.8 million)
Miller ($10.5 million)

Sacramento incoming:
Stoudemire ($13.8 million)

total outgoing: $12.3 million
total incoming: $13.8 million

Works for the Kings. Now the problem:

Phoenix outgoing:
Stoudemire ($13.8 million)

Phoenix incoming:
Martin ($9.46 million PPP figure)
Miller ($10.5 million)

total outgoing: $13.8 million
total incoming: $19.96 million

Doesn't work. Phoenix would need to shed some serious salary elsewhere by, say, sending Diaw to Golden State for their trade exception in order for this to work. And I really doubt that would happen.

 

[Sptsjunkie]

Kevin, Mikki presumably as the big (Nash could make him look good as a patch)..then you have to struggle on up to match salaries. Could do it a lot easier if you combined Mikki and Salmons + a Douby or Cisco or somebody, but that's not going to be enough (although the Suns used to really like Salmons) unless you throw in your #1 pick. Could do it straight out moneywise + other with Kevin/Salmons/Mikki, but presumably you'd really like to keep one OG or the other.

If the Suns would do that, I think we pull the trigger in a heartbeat. Of course you would love to keep a SG, but they are a dime a dozen and Petrie has had no trouble plucking good swingment out of FA and the draft. Getting a potentially dominant big man would be a no brainer. Concidentally, Amare and Hawes could actually complement each other very well assuning Hawes keeps on progressing into the Brad/Vlade mold. Still, I would have to think the odds of this happening are slim to none.

 

[Smills91]

Guys, we really can't trade Kevin Martin for the foreseeable future unless a team with cap space (basically nobody) jumps in the game or it's a fantastically complicated trade. He's a poison pill player for cap purposes since he signed the extension. http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm

Here's basically how it works. From the Kings' perspective, his outgoing salary would be his current salary of $1.8 million, meaning we couldn't take on more than about $2 million in salary if we trade Martin alone. Meanwhile, his figure in cap purposes for the other team is the average of this year's salary and the average salary of his extension. Since that is $55 million, it's $1.8 + $55 / six years, or $9.46 million.

So basically, a trade would have to make up that $8 million difference, either by sending salary to a team under the cap for nothing in return or with a trade exception, in order to get the salaries to match. And that's not going to happen.

As an example, here's what a potential Martin/Stoudemire trade would look like:

Sacramento outgoing:
Martin ($1.8 million)
Miller ($10.5 million)

Sacramento incoming:
Stoudemire ($13.8 million)

total outgoing: $12.3 million
total incoming: $13.8 million

Works for the Kings. Now the problem:

Phoenix outgoing:
Stoudemire ($13.8 million)

Phoenix incoming:
Martin ($9.46 million PPP figure)
Miller ($10.5 million)

total outgoing: $13.8 million
total incoming: $19.96 million

Doesn't work. Phoenix would need to shed some serious salary elsewhere by, say, sending Diaw to Golden State for their trade exception in order for this to work. And I really doubt that would happen.

You can still trade PPP it's just EXTREMELY tricky...however, I found a Kevin Martin, Brad Miller for Amare, Piatkowski, Tucker works under the ESPN trade checker...we may or may not need to include our 1st round draft pick(perhaps with protection)...but I'd prefer to do an Artest/Miller base package type of deal for Amare if that were ever remotely a chance.

 

[diggining]

Something doesn't make sense. I went to ESPN's trade tracker to see the details of your (SMills91) trade, and it does say that it works. But if I understand the rules correctly, it shouldn't be allowed to go through. Here's the math:

(all amounts in millions of dollars)

Sacramento (incoming):

Amare Stoudemire - 13.762775
Eric Piatkowski - 1.219590
Alando Tucker - 0.931920

Total: 15.914285

Sacramento (outgoing):

Kevin Martin - 1.808121
Brad Miller - 10.5

Total: 12.308121

Outgoing total / Incoming total = 129.3% > 125% + 0.1, so that should not be allowed.


Phoenix (incoming):

Kevin Martin - about 9.46
Brad Miller - 10.5

Total: 19.96

Phoenix (outgoing):

Amare Stoudemire - 13.762775
Eric Piatkowski - 1.219590
Alando Tucker - 0.931920

Total: 15.914285

Outgoing total / Incoming total = 125.42%, very close
It turns out that incoming total * 1.25 + 0.1 = 19.903 < 19.96, so the trade shouldn't be allowed on Phoenix's side either.

The trade tracker does say under Piatkowski that "minimum salary exception allowed trade to be successful". But I thought the minimum salar exception just says that teams above the salary cap can sign players for the minimum for 1-2 years. Am I missing something here?

Did I make a mistake with my calculations? Did I understand the rules corrrectly? Is the ESPN trade tracker just wrong in this particular case?

Personally, I doubt it's the first--not because I might not have made a calculation mistake, but as nbrans has said, the way the PPP works, one of the two teams in the trade must have the cap space to swallow the difference (or, if both teams are under the cap, the sum of the cap space of the two trading teams must be greater than this difference). Given KMart's difference is at 8 mil, I know the Kings don't have that cap space, and I am very confident the Suns don't have that cap space either. So unless there are any more rule-shenanigans going on, it's just logically impossible for the Kings to trade Martin to Phoenix.

 

[diggining]

Ooh, just found this: according to RealGM, "The 'minimum salary exception' allows teams to acquire minimum-salary players without regard to salary matching, but for the sending team the salaries still count as outgoing salary when comparing salaries for trade." You learn something everyday.

This helps, but it still doesn't make the trade work. Taking this exception into account, the Kings now take in 14.694695, which is only 119.3% of the amount of salary the Kings trade away. But it still doesn't work from the Suns perspective.

I guess a trade could theoretically work, if the Suns had a number of minimum-salaried players they're willing to trade to the Kings. Emphasis on theoretical though--I think the Suns would absolutely avoid taking on a contract like Brad Miller's given his strengths and weaknesses just don't mesh at all with their up-tempo style.

 

[Smills91]

Ooh, just found this: according to RealGM, "The 'minimum salary exception' allows teams to acquire minimum-salary players without regard to salary matching, but for the sending team the salaries still count as outgoing salary when comparing salaries for trade." You learn something everyday.

This helps, but it still doesn't make the trade work. Taking this exception into account, the Kings now take in 14.694695, which is only 119.3% of the amount of salary the Kings trade away. But it still doesn't work from the Suns perspective.

I guess a trade could theoretically work, if the Suns had a number of minimum-salaried players they're willing to trade to the Kings. Emphasis on theoretical though--I think the Suns would absolutely avoid taking on a contract like Brad Miller's given his strengths and weaknesses just don't mesh at all with their up-tempo style.

Suns also have 2 trade exceptions....one for 8 some odd million and another around 2.5 million or so.

 

[diggining]

Hmm, I thought the way a trade exception works is that you can only use it if you can fit a player you get back entirely within the trade exception, but that isn't the case for either KMart or Brad. (This is also why you can't add two trade exceptions together.) You can't just add a trade exception to another player to balance things out. That's just my understanding of how the rules work though, I might be wrong about that.

 

[Smills91]

Hmm, I thought the way a trade exception works is that you can only use it if you can fit a player you get back entirely within the trade exception, but that isn't the case for either KMart or Brad. (This is also why you can't add two trade exceptions together.) You can't just add a trade exception to another player to balance things out. That's just my understanding of how the rules work though, I might be wrong about that.

That's true, but I don't think an exception is even needed...

here:

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/featur...~3238~2394~556&teams=23~23~23~21~21&te=&cash=

 

[chrisnu]

Not in a trillion years would the Suns trade Stoudemire for anything the Kings have to offer.

 

[kingsfan916]

i wish we could trade for him i think in Sacto he could average 30ppg

 

[Kmart90]

it could be fantastic trade for us ..but i believe that is impossible

 

[ParniValjak]

I would absolutly LOVE to have Amare but we are probably the least likely team he ends up with (thats if he is put up for a trade).

Firstly, we are not only in the same conference as Suns but in the same division. When was the last time a team traded a super star to another team in the same conference, let alone the same division.

Secondly, we really don't have anything of value that the Suns would want. What they would be after would be a defensively minded, athletic tall and we don't have those or a really early lottery pick. We might get that, but it wouldn't be one of the top 3.

Even if we could come up with a trade that could get us Amare, the most likely scenario would be gutting your team to get him and then not have enough around Amare to do anything significant. In this scenario you get the situation that they had in Minny with KG.

 

[venom_7]

It would be even better if we could somehow keep Kevin. Send Salmons instead.

Brad + John for Amare + Banks

then you could do

Artest, Kt, and SAR to Chicago for Tyrus Thomas, Ben Wallace, and first round pick.

Bibby and Douby + our 1st round pick to Atlanta for Shelden Williams, Josh Smith, and filler (speedy claxton and lorenzen wright) Maybe 3 team this so Shelden Williams goes to New Jersey and Antoine Wright goes to Sac
ATL is gonna trade Josh Smith anyway because he really doesn't wanna be in atlanta (i read that somewhere, cant remember)

Then you have
Beno/Banks/Claxton
Martin/Wright/Jones
Smith/Garcia/Wright
Stoudemire/Moore/Thomas/JWilliams
Wallace/Thomas/Hawes/Wright

I would probably start Thomas over Wallace actually. Moving Amare to C.

I have no idea if salaries work and it would probably never happen in a million years but that is my pipe dream, 3 trade Kings rebuild. Get a point guard like Derrick Rose in the draft with Chicagos pick and this team is rolling.

 

[diggining]

That's true, but I don't think an exception is even needed...

here:

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=660~1727~3238~2394~556&teams=23~23~23~21~21&te=&cash=

Yeah, I checked that out myself--but given that I don't see how that trade actually works as I understand the rules, I was wondering whether I am missing some rule quirk that I don't know about, or whether the ESPN trade machine messed up in this case.

 

[diggining]

Certainly, the list of players I would rather have instead of Amare, taking into account age and contract, is very, very short. Let's see--there's Lebron. Dwight Howard, especially because Amare's already undergone microfracture surgery. Maybe Dwayne Wade. Yao is a close call. But I think that's about it. CP3 and Deron Williams are not that far behind.

 

[Venom]

I'm surprised nobody answered the OP's second question. No, Amare cannot be the cornerstone to your franchise. He will score a lot of points in highlight reel fashion, but if his opposing C/PF is any good, so will he. Amare is the reason they cannot beat Tim Duncan and the Spurs. The Suns had no business losing the KG sweepstakes this summer. None. Nash drives that team and has a small window left. Suns fans will watch that window close while Amare and Marion continue to swing their purses at each other.

 

[venom_7]

I'm surprised nobody answered the OP's second question. No, Amare cannot be the cornerstone to your franchise. He will score a lot of points in highlight reel fashion, but if his opposing C/PF is any good, so will he. Amare is the reason they cannot beat Tim Duncan and the Spurs. The Suns had no business losing the KG sweepstakes this summer. None. Nash drives that team and has a small window left. Suns fans will watch that window close while Amare and Marion continue to swing their purses at each other.

You're name confuses me sometimes. We have similar post counts also. The Suns wouldn't just give us Amare, we would have to take Marcus Banks as well because he is their only bad contract.