BW, Bags vs. Doncic, and Other Thoughts

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kb02

kb02

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So I did a fast food research of the major decisions that have been made by the Kings since BW came on board and they follow:
1. Signings of George Hill, Zach Randolph, and Vince Carter. ZBO, I'll attribute to Joeger. The other two?
2. Dumping Pappa for Shump and Cash. That's a win.
3. Signing Ferrell. Solid.
4. Signing Bjelly. No credit, because that's a Peja/Vlade play.
5. Drafting Bags over Doncic. Push--mostly because I had Bags #2 behind Doncic and I'm thrilled with I'm seeing.

6. Firing Youngman and Manny. I don't know enough to know whether that was a good or bad thing. Both seemed to be fine folks, however.
7. Overhauling the entertainment and community side of the business (Moak, etc).

Those moves, over the span of a year or so, don't seem to be all that lofty--especially when we factor in #8 (poisoning the foundation). What am I missing? Low bar in the FO?

Doncic vs. Bags
I don't get the Doncic has been outplaying Bags argument here and elsewhere. It's apples to oranges. There's minutes, projections, and roles.

I had Doncic > Bags > Bamba > Miles > JJJ > Ayton pre-draft. Today, it would be Doncic > Bags > JJJ > Ayton > Miles.

I love what I'm seeing from Bags. You can't teach his athleticism and his feet. Watch him grow in years 1 to 2.

There's an article on STR right now about how Bags' defense is a revelation. See here: https://www.sactownroyalty.com/2018/11/20/18099212/sacramento-kings-marvin-bagley-blocked-shot

There were a minority of folks, who never questioned Bags ability to defend. Yea, he didn't show out at Duke on defense. But anyone who watched him play more than a few games in college would've seen the feet, athleticism, and second jump and been able to project him as an above average NBA defender.

The thing is, he's going to be exceptional when he better understands spacing (growing in this department) and starts using his right hand for blocks (no improvement, at all).
 
Ya know I never understood why the mods here policed this place the way they do. But seeing this Doncic deluge, now I understand -- clearly the inmates would be running the asylum without constant intervention.

Seems to me like if the Kings were 17-0 right now there'd still be handfulls of people here with an axe to grind over the pick. LOL.


the Kings had the 8th worst record last year and landed MARVIN BAGLEY!! thats a ****ing minor miracle,. Can't ya be happy with that? (i'm absolutely floored that this perspective has been lost so quickly)


Go back to the 2018 draftees thread and be sure to look at the timestamps. I bet lots of people wanted Mikal Bridges who fell to what?! Meanwhile we got Marvin served to us on a silver platter and it's not good enough. LOL.

Every pro doncic Post I see Ithink of all the ones that coincided with bashing De'Aaron Fox this offseason. There was so many here convinced that Fox wasn't a floor general LOL.

Doncic's AST/TO ratio is even, He draws considerably less fouls per fga.


fox is gonna be way better than Luka, and Marvin will help Fox more than Luka can. End of story.
 
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Scott Perry took the Knicks job the first week of July and Brandon came on July 30th so I don't think you assign those signings to either.

Hill was considered a huge win for us at the time, it just didn't work out. And we quickly moved on and got the better end of the deal since Shump has played major roles in winning us a few games already. Carter was a great role model while he was here, I'm sure he helped the growth of our young guys. He wasn't expected to make a lot of meaningful on court contributions. More of an assistant captain/coach role as a vet player.

The other things who knows. I agree it's too early to call a draft winner, the thing that throws me for a spin on this is that everyone knew the other guy was going to come out of the gate hot. So you had to be comfortable with that and the early second guessing that accompanies this choice and believe beyond reason that your guy is going to be the best player 3 years from now or you don't make that pick. The Kings quite confidently made their pick so why the hell is this guy getting ants in his pants now??? And how could he seriously be considering firing Joerger (I get maybe last year if he wanted a full on tank job and Dave winning games would upset him, but I think the vision last year was building culture and despite the naysayers it has clearly paid dividends early this year).

Regardless his basketball acumen isn't what's in question right now. Benedict Arnold I'm sure was quite the general.
 
MB3 likes to play defense. The reason he likes it is because he's good at it! He likes the challenge. He does a good job too of staying on his feet. He doesn't bite too often on fakes. I would quibble with the contention it is easy to get him off his feet. It's not, he stays down, this contributes to the positive FG% differential allowed cited in the Sactown post. When the opponent is wary you as the defender are going to go up and get their shot their focus is off the rim and they are likely to miss. Contrast this to Willie and Harry, they lack the reaction time (Willie) or burst (Harry) to cause the shooter concern. Once Bagley adds more strength he is going to be a great defender. On offense, we need to give him space and he needs to get more decisive in his moves. Additionally when he starts draining the midrange and long range it will open his inside game. Bagley can easily be a 20 PPG scorer in our league because he draws a high foul rate, he can get 10-12 points per game off fast breaks and putbacks. Then he needs to get 3-4 baskets per game out of isolation and he's getting you 20 PPG. Bagley is so good, his talent is on par with Fox.

Papa G was not dumped for cash and Shump, G-Hill was.
 
I’m not sure exactly what BW has done or what was done by Vlade......I don’t think anyone knows. And I also think that Ken Catanella has had a hand in part of the signings in regards to salaries and implications. Definitely think he was at least involved on the Hill trade and getting back Shump and I think Joe Johnson was involved too.

What I do know is that Joerger believes BW has been trying to replace him. That is enough for me to want BW gone. Joerger should be here long term and he should be given the opportunity to see it through.
 
Hansel said:
Can you define "way better", please?
Click to expand...
Yeah sure. Doncic is more a like Utah Gordon Hayward type of player, who will get stats but is outclassed by the top SF's of the west and is easier to gameplan against than people want to admit come playoff time, while Fox is the real deal. Plus Luka is an offensive player and Fox is a two-way guy.

Also Luka will prove to be considerably easier to turnover.
 
is this supposed to be yet another Luka vs Bagley thread? because as far as the eye can see, there are quite a few in the NBA thread and there have been conversations til no end about these two. I know the other part of your post is indicating some of the moves the Kings have made prior to drafting Bagley but that's another topic on it's own rather than trying to infuse another Doncic discussion here.

The most pleasant surprise has been Bagley and his shot blocking abilites. He isn't a good man defender but he does put forth the effort at times and if he isn't scoring, that needs to be his calling card because that's how he can help contribute to this team and the rebounding helps too of course.
 
We got lucky 2 drafts in a row and moved up. We have needed that WOW point guard since Bibby left and a franchise needs a good point guard to succeed, (unless you have a Labron). I wanted Fox and didn’t think the UCLA game was a fluke. We got lucky.

Now we hit the jackpot this draft and the top 4 or 5 picks looked real good to me. I did not really like Ayton but if he fell to us it would of been hard to pass up. Bagley is young like the others but getting to watch him a few times I was sold as he reminded me of a Webber type player.

But don’t worry come draft time this time it won’t matter.
 
kb02 said:
So I did a fast food research of the major decisions that have been made by the Kings since BW came on board and they follow:
1. Signings of George Hill, Zach Randolph, and Vince Carter. ZBO, I'll attribute to Joeger. The other two?
2. Dumping Pappa for Shump and Cash. That's a win.
3. Signing Ferrell. Solid.
4. Signing Bjelly. No credit, because that's a Peja/Vlade play.
5. Drafting Bags over Doncic. Push--mostly because I had Bags #2 behind Doncic and I'm thrilled with I'm seeing.

6. Firing Youngman and Manny. I don't know enough to know whether that was a good or bad thing. Both seemed to be fine folks, however.
7. Overhauling the entertainment and community side of the business (Moak, etc).

Those moves, over the span of a year or so, don't seem to be all that lofty--especially when we factor in #8 (poisoning the foundation). What am I missing? Low bar in the FO?

Doncic vs. Bags
I don't get the Doncic has been outplaying Bags argument here and elsewhere. It's apples to oranges. There's minutes, projections, and roles.

I had Doncic > Bags > Bamba > Miles > JJJ > Ayton pre-draft. Today, it would be Doncic > Bags > JJJ > Ayton > Miles.

I love what I'm seeing from Bags. You can't teach his athleticism and his feet. Watch him grow in years 1 to 2.

There's an article on STR right now about how Bags' defense is a revelation. See here: https://www.sactownroyalty.com/2018/11/20/18099212/sacramento-kings-marvin-bagley-blocked-shot

There were a minority of folks, who never questioned Bags ability to defend. Yea, he didn't show out at Duke on defense. But anyone who watched him play more than a few games in college would've seen the feet, athleticism, and second jump and been able to project him as an above average NBA defender.

The thing is, he's going to be exceptional when he better understands spacing (growing in this department) and starts using his right hand for blocks (no improvement, at all).
Click to expand...

The way you have the draft today is exactly how I had the draft on draft day. I basically had three players at the top of my board that I could make a case for being the first pick in the draft. Therefore I would have been happy with any of the three. I do wish that the Kings had taken a look at JJ. I'm not disappointed in Bag's by any means, but I don't like it when an organization ignores a top talent. Of course to be fair, they may have considered him and simply didn't say anything about it.
 
The BW situation really only matters in that stuff got out in the public. The FO should have debates on the direction of the team. Sac fans are just a bit more sensitive to this thing. Not sure it's making any ripples across the rest of the NBA world. Not saying it should, but it's not a bombshell story. It's an irritating story from a fan perspective.
 
bajaden said:
The way you have the draft today is exactly how I had the draft on draft day. I basically had three players at the top of my board that I could make a case for being the first pick in the draft. Therefore I would have been happy with any of the three. I do wish that the Kings had taken a look at JJ. I'm not disappointed in Bag's by any means, but I don't like it when an organization ignores a top talent. Of course to be fair, they may have considered him and simply didn't say anything about it.
Click to expand...

Do you think having one of the top 2 picks changes how much research a team needs to do? PHX didn't look around much. I agree that teams should do their homework, but with Ayton a sure thing going 1, the Kings can take who they want versus preparing for multiple options. Was JJJ considered a #2 pick in any experts analysis?
 
pdxKingsFan said:
Scott Perry took the Knicks job the first week of July and Brandon came on July 30th so I don't think you assign those signings to either.

Hill was considered a huge win for us at the time, it just didn't work out. And we quickly moved on and got the better end of the deal since Shump has played major roles in winning us a few games already. Carter was a great role model while he was here, I'm sure he helped the growth of our young guys. He wasn't expected to make a lot of meaningful on court contributions. More of an assistant captain/coach role as a vet player.

The other things who knows. I agree it's too early to call a draft winner, the thing that throws me for a spin on this is that everyone knew the other guy was going to come out of the gate hot. So you had to be comfortable with that and the early second guessing that accompanies this choice and believe beyond reason that your guy is going to be the best player 3 years from now or you don't make that pick. The Kings quite confidently made their pick so why the hell is this guy getting ants in his pants now??? And how could he seriously be considering firing Joerger (I get maybe last year if he wanted a full on tank job and Dave winning games would upset him, but I think the vision last year was building culture and despite the naysayers it has clearly paid dividends early this year).

Regardless his basketball acumen isn't what's in question right now. Benedict Arnold I'm sure was quite the general.
Click to expand...

Actually Arnold was one of our top generals. Unfortunately he suffered a leg wound on one of his campaigns and then felt as though he was being overlooked by Washington because of his lack of mobility. He wanted a leadership position and when the British offered one, he became a traitor. Of course there's more to the story than that, but he was a great general. Obviously, we should hang Williams! Just kidding folks, just kidding.:p
 
People still talking Luka Bogdanovic? Any thread about him should be locked haha. Bagley will have a better career IMO. Its over people, Luka Bogdanovic is a Maverick.
 
Ozymandias said:
Ya know I never understood why the mods here policed this place the way they do. But seeing this Doncic deluge, now I understand -- clearly the inmates would be running the asylum without constant intervention.

Seems to me like if the Kings were 17-0 right now there'd still be handfulls of people here with an axe to grind over the pick. LOL.


the Kings had the 8th worst record last year and landed MARVIN BAGLEY!! thats a ****ing minor miracle,. Can't ya be happy with that? (i'm absolutely floored that this perspective has been lost so quickly)


Go back to the 2018 draftees thread and be sure to look at the timestamps. I bet lots of people wanted Mikal Bridges who fell to what?! Meanwhile we got Marvin served to us on a silver platter and it's not good enough. LOL.

Every pro doncic Post I see Ithink of all the ones that coincided with bashing De'Aaron Fox this offseason. There was so many here convinced that Fox wasn't a floor general LOL.

Doncic's AST/TO ratio is even, He draws considerably less fouls per fga.


fox is gonna be way better than Luka, and Marvin will help Fox more than Luka can. End of story.
Click to expand...

I watched a lot of Doncic's games in Europe, and while he was very impressive in many of the games, one thing was very obvious to me, he's mostly effective with the ball in his hands, and so is Fox, and so is Bogdanovic. So while we did need a SF, we also needed players that could run the floor, and play off the ball effectively. We had Willie, and for now, that's also Bagley's MO. Another thing that bothered me about Doncic, and it wasn't a big deal, but he looked out of shape to me. I thought he actually gained weight throughout the season. It made me question whether he would be able to keep up with the style we wanted to play. Maybe he could, maybe he couldn't.

So from that perspective, I think Bagley is a better fit than Doncic. It's not always about who can score the most points, but who best fits in with the style your playing. You could add a player capable of scoring 25 pts a game, but who is also a bit of a plodder, and as a result, he gets his points, but the overall scoring of the team goes down because it disrupts the style. I also think that Jaren Jackson would have been a good fit for the Kings, and probably could fill in at the center position better than either Bag's or Giles.
 
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Livinthedream said:
Do you think having one of the top 2 picks changes how much research a team needs to do? PHX didn't look around much. I agree that teams should do their homework, but with Ayton a sure thing going 1, the Kings can take who they want versus preparing for multiple options. Was JJJ considered a #2 pick in any experts analysis?
Click to expand...

Actually yes, there were some draft pundits that had JJ at number two. Some had Bag's at number two and some had Doncic there. So it was sort of a grab bag. I had Ayton at number one, but only because it was a given he was going there. If we had the 1st pick in the draft, I would have had Ayton at number 4, Doncic at 3, JJ at two, and Bag's at 1. I thought that JJ was the best defensive big man in the draft, sorry Mr. Bamba, and I also thought he had very good offensive skills, that he didn't get much of a chance to show off at Mich St. So from that perspective, he was sort of a mystery man.
 
I liked the stat graphic they showed before the game.

Bagley is 10th in minutes among rookies but top 5 in all relevant stat categories yet all those end all be all rookie rankings always have him out of the top 10

They even had that can that started in place of Wiggins when the Wolves were in town ahead of him in one I saw. Agenda
 
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