Bring Gay off the bench?

[206Fan]

Straw man argument. This isn't the 30-win team. Until our big 3 have a few dozen games together under their belt, I don't think you can even think about making that kind of radical change.

You don't send a player of the caliber of Rudy Gay to come off the bench unless you have a damned good reason to do so. And I don't think you've come anywhere close to making a case. Rudy is a starter. He's going to stay a starter, as he should. We need to be working on our shooting guard position more than we need to worry about replacing Rudy in the starting lineup.

If Omri outplays Rudy with Cuz on the floor, then I think that's the time where we can start talking about Rudy going to the bench.

I'm not even sure how Rudy is even averaging 17pts, and nearly 7 rebs on .443 shooting.. he's been playing below average.

 

[Sluggah]

If you like Rondo and would like him to stay, I'd advise not yanking his BFF around. That alone is reason enough for me.

 

[Sac.1989]

On a 30 win team, I don't get your point. The defensive player of the year may have something to say about that too.

He can get the same pt. The spurs third wheel came off the bench. The finals mvp does it (yeah I know it was fringy), there's a long history of off the bench offensive weapons. And for all his talents, Rudy has what to show for it, besides a contract and bad rep?

And the obsession with Rudy at pf? He's played most of his minutes at sf. For 10-15min you can call him or Omri a stretch four, big deal.

The point is simply moving rudy to the bench is not a wise move.

- a 30 win team due to the stupidity of ownership and management
- playing pf due to the stupidity of the coach

* playing mins solely as a SF he has shown his value, showing to be effective/highly effective next to boogie in his time here. Its utilising that correctly. over to you coach.

 

[KingsFanGER]

I dont think this is a good idea. Winning cures everything. Iggy, Lee or Manu accepted their new roles, because the team was winning.
Now we dont win enough games to sell Rudy a bench role.

Rudy is already one of the first subs, so that he can play extended minutes without Cuz on the floor.

Casspi might outplay Rudy a bit, but he is doing so, because he gives extremely high effort.
Rudy is the better player, but so far looks out of sync and plays with poor effort sometimes.
Karl needs to adress that. He needs to turn Rudy into a serviceable defender and force him to play relentless every night.
I doubt bringing him off the bench, will help.

 

[KingMilz]

Or better yet trade him the thing with Rudy as talented as he is you sacrifice chemistry and defense whenever he's on the floor, I said a couple of threads ago Rudy Gay is basically Jamal Crawford without the handle he makes crazy shots while stalling everyone else and not providing anything in any other area. While currently we are not better without Rudy I think we can get good role players for him someone like a Gerald Henderson with a Mo Harkless (to make the contracts match). We get athletically better and defensively we are better.

Two other teams realized this and took off without him it's not by accident.

This team is at it's best when Rondo and Cousins dominate the ball and you don't need a 3rd guy dominating the ball you need good athletes/finishes/floor spacers. If you look at all the top teams (from last year) in the West how many have 3 ball dominant guys starting? The answer is probably none most have 1-2 max and teams like Houston/Clippers tried to add a ball dominant player and look how well that's worked for them.

 

[Im Still Ballin]

Or better yet trade him the thing with Rudy as talented as he is you sacrifice chemistry and defense whenever he's on the floor, I said a couple of threads ago Rudy Gay is basically Jamal Crawford without the handle he makes crazy shots while stalling everyone else and not providing anything in any other area. While currently we are not better without Rudy I think we can get good role players for him someone like a Gerald Henderson with a Mo Harkless (to make the contracts match). We get athletically better and defensively we are better.

Two other teams realized this and took off without him it's not by accident.

This team is at it's best when Rondo and Cousins dominate the ball and you don't need a 3rd guy dominating the ball you need good athletes/finishes/floor spacers.

Rudy Gay for Khris Middleton + filler

 

[CurseOfTheSalmons]

No!

Rudy is playing great. He just needs to make one small adjustment to his game: replace 1 turnover (those turnovers where he tries to go 1 on 5) with 1 3PA.

 

[Amit149]

Or better yet trade him the thing with Rudy as talented as he is you sacrifice chemistry and defense whenever he's on the floor, I said a couple of threads ago Rudy Gay is basically Jamal Crawford without the handle he makes crazy shots while stalling everyone else and not providing anything in any other area. While currently we are not better without Rudy I think we can get good role players for him someone like a Gerald Henderson with a Mo Harkless (to make the contracts match). We get athletically better and defensively we are better.

Two other teams realized this and took off without him it's not by accident.

This team is at it's best when Rondo and Cousins dominate the ball and you don't need a 3rd guy dominating the ball you need good athletes/finishes/floor spacers. If you look at all the top teams (from last year) in the West how many have 3 ball dominant guys starting? The answer is probably none most have 1-2 max and teams like Houston/Clippers tried to add a ball dominant player and look how well that's worked for them.

Here's the thing, I don't think Rudy has the trade value you think he holds... so even if I agree with you that Rudy is holding this team back (and I don't), I don't think you can get anything of value back in a trade.

Let's take the Portland deal you proposed (you don't need to match salary because they have 20 million in cap room), what's the incentive for Portland to make that deal? it's not like they'll be a playoff team with him, Portland's goals this season is to develop their young talent, get a high pick and try to lure a nice FA in the summer to add to their core... how does Rudy helps them?

The problem with Rudy as a trade asset is that there is a limited demand for a player like him, on the one hand tanking/lottery teams don't need him ad on the other hand his contending teams wouldn't want him becasue his reputation as Memphis, Toronto and (assuming a trade) the Kings all felt like he's holding them back.

The only teams I can see wanting him is borderline playoff teams like Indiana and maybe a dumb organization like the Nets if they want to spite the Celtics... and I'm not sure what you can get out of this teams.

Rudy Gay for Khris Middleton + filler

You know the feeling you get when someone offers an uneven Cousins to Celtics/Lakers trade? that's how the Bucks will feel about that.

The last thing you want in a team that's trying to develop Parker and Giannis as franchise players is a guy who will take their minutes in Rudy gay.
Middleton is crucial to the way they play defense and is one of the best 3&D wings in the league, though is scoring numbers aren't nearly as good as Rudy's he is much more important to that team than another scorer.

 

[Im Still Ballin]

I never said it was a good trade for them

 

[KingMilz]

The problem with Rudy as a trade asset is that there is a limited demand for a player like him, on the one hand tanking/lottery teams don't need him ad on the other hand his contending teams wouldn't want him becasue his reputation as Memphis, Toronto and (assuming a trade) the Kings all felt like he's holding them back.

That's actually very true, the other trade we could do possible imo is a 3 way involving Chicago where they get Rudy that is probably the only trade I can see and we get something from that 3rd team (since Chicago has nothing other than Butler who they would never give up).

 

[KingsFanGER]

That's actually very true, the other trade we could do possible imo is a 3 way involving Chicago where they get Rudy that is probably the only trade I can see and we get something from that 3rd team (since Chicago has nothing other than Butler who they would never give up).

But why trade Rudy? The things you mentioned aren't unfixable. Mainly they relate to a certain playstyle and not to things Rudy can or can't do.

Would you trade Rudy for Crowder?
I get it - Crowder is an above average defender, a ball mover and can hit open shots and drive straight. And I like his game.
But Crowder is who he is, because he is a hard worker and has this relentless attitude.
He is not supremely talented. He won't hit tough shots. He has not the ability to take over a game on the offensive end. He will only be effective, when the system he plays in works. When opponents find a way to disrupt the system, players like Crowder are helpless (the breakdown of the Hawks in last years playoffs teaches that).

Rudy on the other hand is on a completely different level talentwise than Crowder. He can take over games. He doesn't depend on a system, but can create shots out of nowhere. And he can do everything Crowder does and more.
The problem is, that he doesn't have the relentless spirit on D and doesn't move the ball.
But this is where coaching comes into place. Karl has to teach Rudy to give 100% on the defensive end all the time and to get rid of the ball on offense quicker, when there is no good look.
Rudy's whole career was built on his ability to create and hit shots.
Now with Rondo in place, he has to adjust into a finishing role and with our lackluster perimeter defense and the necessity to play the 4 at times, he has to give more defensive effort.
This adjustments will take some time.

But when you have talent, that needs to adjust, but has the physical tools to make it work, the solution can't be to trade away some of your talent for lesser players.
The more talented a team is, the more the roles of some players diminish.
But the smart teams keep their talent as a backup plan.
At some point of the season opponents will stop Cuz and the two man game we have in place with Rondo and Cuz. That's where the chance to fall back to Rudy's shot creating abilities is priceless.
Crowder won't give you this chance.

Now if time shows, that Rudy is unwilling to make the needed adjustments and that Karl isn't able to reach him, than we can talk about trading Rudy or hiring a coach able to teach him.

 

[kingsboi]

We already do, do that. The only times we haven't were on injuries. Rudy has never started at the 4, with the exception of maybe 1 game.

I'm not really seeing that. What I see is him guarding fours repeatedly because Karl wants to play DC/Rondo together and then he adds in maybe Ben or Omri to play Nellie ball.

 

[The_Jamal]

But why trade Rudy? The things you mentioned aren't unfixable. Mainly they relate to a certain playstyle and not to things Rudy can or can't do.

Would you trade Rudy for Crowder?
I get it - Crowder is an above average defender, a ball mover and can hit open shots and drive straight. And I like his game.
But Crowder is who he is, because he is a hard worker and has this relentless attitude.
He is not supremely talented. He won't hit tough shots. He has not the ability to take over a game on the offensive end. He will only be effective, when the system he plays in works. When opponents find a way to disrupt the system, players like Crowder are helpless (the breakdown of the Hawks in last years playoffs teaches that).

Rudy on the other hand is on a completely different level talentwise than Crowder. He can take over games. He doesn't depend on a system, but can create shots out of nowhere. And he can do everything Crowder does and more.
The problem is, that he doesn't have the relentless spirit on D and doesn't move the ball.
But this is where coaching comes into place. Karl has to teach Rudy to give 100% on the defensive end all the time and to get rid of the ball on offense quicker, when there is no good look.
Rudy's whole career was built on his ability to create and hit shots.
Now with Rondo in place, he has to adjust into a finishing role and with our lackluster perimeter defense and the necessity to play the 4 at times, he has to give more defensive effort.
This adjustments will take some time.

But when you have talent, that needs to adjust, but has the physical tools to make it work, the solution can't be to trade away some of your talent for lesser players.
The more talented a team is, the more the roles of some players diminish.
But the smart teams keep their talent as a backup plan.
At some point of the season opponents will stop Cuz and the two man game we have in place with Rondo and Cuz. That's where the chance to fall back to Rudy's shot creating abilities is priceless.
Crowder won't give you this chance.

Now if time shows, that Rudy is unwilling to make the needed adjustments and that Karl isn't able to reach him, than we can talk about trading Rudy or hiring a coach able to teach him.

Nice post. I think a role adjustment is what we need to do with rudy, rather than trade him. He needs to find a way to fit in with the rondo-Cuz duo, rather than make it a rudy-cuz-rondo trio. While they missed there shots, it was great seeing Ben and darren being involved in the offense. We looked like a real offense... all the attention was on rondo and Cuz as it should be and the other guys got decent spot up opportunities. Just got to hit them

 

[The_Jamal]

I'm not really seeing that. What I see is him guarding fours repeatedly because Karl wants to play DC/Rondo together and then he adds in maybe Ben or Omri to play Nellie ball.

Rudy's played 1/4th of his minutes at the pf, which he should be perfectly capable of handling.

 

[Entity]

I think Rudy is just fine. He moves without the ball look at the back to back ally's from rondo a few games back. And when you need it he can ISO. I mean that is still a part of the game and is needed from time to time. I don't buy into the idea that you should play one way 100% of the time. I was actually ok with pace at certain times. Just manage it.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Did anyone besides brick read the post?
This has nothing to do with the last game, small ball, or changing any playing time.

Am I the only one that has seen a sum less than its parts, or has rudy been having a great year?

No, @Bricklayer is not the only person who read the OP. There is, however, a non-zero possibility that he's the only one who read the OP that can be bothered to engage you in the level of discourse that you're looking for.

Or, alternatively, we may not take the OP seriously, and want to get these jokes off (Well, maybe that last part's just me).

 

[Im Still Ballin]

I think the right trade could make us better on paper, but I don't want us to trade Rudy because he has a good relationship with Rondo and Cousins and the last thing we need to do is pee off Cousins even more. He's one loyal dude, a rare breed in this day and age... We should respect that... For now anyways. The talent and personnel is there on this team. We've seen how good they can be in stretches. Just needs to come all together, which I think it will. The defense looked great during stretches last night, as it has in other games. It will come together and we will be playing in the playoffs.

 

[upinsmoke]

I would at least kick the tires on the idea

No!

Rudy is playing great. He just needs to make one small adjustment to his game: replace 1 turnover (those turnovers where he tries to go 1 on 5) with 1 3PA.

No he's not. His box score does not tell the story.

 

[VF21]

I never said it was a good trade for them

Around here, the rule is that if you're going to propose a trade it has to be logical for both sides. (See the note in the Personnel Moves forum on trades.)

 

[Im Still Ballin]

Around here, the rule is that if you're going to propose a trade it has to be logical for both sides. (See the note in the Personnel Moves forum on trades.)

That is a logical trade

Milwaukee is paying Middleton 15 million to be a 3 and D player

We are paying Rudy 12 million to be more than that

Bucks lack perimeter scoring talent

We probably would be better off with a player like Middleton

Logical does not necessarily mean good... We are focused with the Kings, not the Bucks. Logical implies that it is realistic and something that Milwaukee would possibly do (Which is absolutely possible, given their weaknesses). I don't think it would make them all that better, but that is irrelevant to us.

 

[twslam07]

The only guy I'm trading Gay for at this point would be for Nic Batum, but even then, it's risky. It's risky because of Gay's relationship with Rondo & Cousins, and it's risky because Batum is a UFA at the end of the year.

As talented as this roster is, it is unbalanced. First of all, our sixth man plays the same position as our star PG (and doesn't not have the size to play next to him on a consistent basis) & our 3rd big plays the same position as our star C. We have depth, but reallocating that depth to positions like SG & PF would help balance our roster and improve cohesiveness.

@KingMilz mentoned that Chicago might be a possible destination for Gay. If we could swing a 3 way deal with Chicago and Charlotte to bring Batum here, I think we could see a boost in our team. For instance, if the trade played out like this:

Charlotte Gets:
Kosta Koufos
Doug McDermott
2016 Kings' 1st rounder (top 10 protection removed / worse of the Kings & Sixers picks)

Chicago Gets:
Rudy Gay

Sacramento Gets:
Nic Batum
Taj Gibson

Charlotte gets a young center (26) who can grow with there core. His game is a nice change of pace from Kaminsky and they will have a good tandem going forward after Jefferson's contract expires. Not to mention they pick up McDermott and an extra 1st round pick to help continue to build towards the future.

Chicago fills their SF position and get another viable scorer. Depending on their rotation they could even have Gay come off the bench to help balance out some of their scoring. Having Rose, Butler, Mirotic, & Gasol in the starting lineup might not leave too many looks for Gay, but having a guy like Gay as a super sub would be awesome. Not to mention, if/when Rose misses time, you can always insert Gay into the starting lineup to give them another option. They lose McDermott and Gibson, but their wing depth will still be solid with Butler, Snell, Gay, & Dunleavy, and Portis can slide over as the 4th big behind Mirotic, Gasol, & Noah.

Sacramento gets a SF who can play great defense, spread the floor at a high rate, and get his points within the flow of the offense. Not to mention he is a very unselfish player. They also get Gibson which allows Cousins to log all of his minutes at C. Gibson could also potentially take Cauley-Stein's starting spot this year, since he's also a solid defender and can knock down open jumpers (and having Cauley-Stein as the 3rd big would make some sense since he can sub in at PF or C).

PG - Rondo/Collison/Curry
SG - McLemore/Belinelli/Anderson
SF - Batum/Casspi/Butler
PF - Gibson/Acy/Moreland/Dukan
C - Cousins/Cauley-Stein

If we want to take it a step further, we trade Collison & Belinelli for Burks & Neto to help balance our the guard situation. It leaves us with Curry as the backup PG, but you could even have Burks take on all of the backup PG minutes (Burks plays around 10 or so minutes at PG for the Jazz right now).

PG - Rondo (37 min)/Burks (11 min)/Curry/Neto
SG - McLemore (27 min)/Burks (21 min)/Anderson
SF - Batum (36 min)/Casspi (12 min)/Butler
PF - Gibson (28 min)/Cauley-Stein (12 min)/Casspi (8 min)/Acy/Moreland/Dukan
C - Cousins (37 min)/Cauley-Stein (11 min)

Cousins - 37 min
Rondo - 37 min
Batum - 36 min
Burks - 32 min
Gibson - 28 min
McLemore - 27 min
Cauley-Stein - 23 min
Casspi - 20 min

There's no way this happens, but this team would be very competitive, extremely balanced, and compliment our two stars (Cousins/Rondo).

 

[206Fan]

The only guy I'm trading Gay for at this point would be for Nic Batum, but even then, it's risky. It's risky because of Gay's relationship with Rondo & Cousins, and it's risky because Batum is a UFA at the end of the year.

As talented as this roster is, it is unbalanced. First of all, our sixth man plays the same position as our star PG (and doesn't not have the size to play next to him on a consistent basis) & our 3rd big plays the same position as our star C. We have depth, but reallocating that depth to positions like SG & PF would help balance our roster and improve cohesiveness.

@KingMilz mentoned that Chicago might be a possible destination for Gay. If we could swing a 3 way deal with Chicago and Charlotte to bring Batum here, I think we could see a boost in our team. For instance, if the trade played out like this:

Charlotte Gets:
Kosta Koufos
Doug McDermott
2016 Kings' 1st rounder (top 10 protection removed / worse of the Kings & Sixers picks)

Chicago Gets:
Rudy Gay

Sacramento Gets:
Nic Batum
Taj Gibson


There's no way this happens, but this team would be very competitive, extremely balanced, and compliment our two stars (Cousins/Rondo).

I think all of the teams, except Charlotte does it.

Charlotte has been beyond freaking terrible in drafting. They'd botch their 1st round pick, so I think they'd rather just keep a proven Batum. I think they want to move forward with Batum as their franchise player.

 

[206Fan]

Houston: Rudy Gay

Kings: Trevor Ariza and Terrance Jones


Houston is terrible right now, and they're in desperate need of another scorer. Trevor Ariza has struggled this year shooting the ball.

Ariza gives us a 3&D player who doesn't command for the ball a lot. It spreads the floor out even more.
Jones could be a good starter alongside Boogie. He'd spread the floor out even more.

 

[rainmaker]

Houston: Rudy Gay

Kings: Trevor Ariza and Terrance Jones


Houston is terrible right now, and they're in desperate need of another scorer. Trevor Ariza has struggled this year shooting the ball.

Ariza gives us a 3&D player who doesn't command for the ball a lot. It spreads the floor out even more.
Jones could be a good starter alongside Boogie. He'd spread the floor out even more.

How about not.

Kings 2016 opening night lineup in the new arena.

DC
Ben
Ariza
WCS
Cuz

after Rondo bolts because the idiots here couldn't figure out how to use a top 5-7 SF.

Then we've got Fegan stirring up crap and looking hard for a new team for his client.

 

[206Fan]

How about not.

Kings 2016 opening night lineup in the new arena.

DC
Ben
Ariza
WCS
Cuz

after Rondo bolts because the idiots here couldn't figure out how to use a top 5-7 SF.

Then we've got Fegan stirring up crap and looking hard for a new team for his client.

Why are you drawing conclusions?

And you act like we won't have 100000000000000000000000000000million dollars in salary cap next year for FA.

 

[Bricklayer]

Stop this nonsense.

Really guys. Its not happening. Nor should you want it to. Between either a) trading a Top 10 SF with connections to our 2 best players; or b) asking some numbnuts nobody assistant coach who's dependent on a tired old man for his NBA lifeline to make some tweaks to his dumbass system to more properly use said Top 10 SF, the answer should be obvious.

The material is here to get into a playoff hunt after the All Star break. That's enough, and what's needed here. get in position, and see what an inspired Boogie can do. The absolute stupidest thing anybody can suggest at this point is anything which disrupts or distracts or slows down a team trying to come together with a united personality. Continuity matters. You need band of brothers here. You need the guys to be the guys and everybody to look around and know they have to pull their weight vis a vis the other guys. You don't don't see good teams running around making huge midseason trades of their Top 3 players. You figure this stuff out in the summer. Right now, you compete with what you have.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

Why are you drawing conclusions?

And you act like we won't have 100000000000000000000000000000million dollars in salary cap next year for FA.

Everybody is going to have eleventy billion dollars in cap room next year. Seriously, here's a quick breakdown, making a few reasonable assumptions about opt-outs and team options:

$60-$70M: L.A. Lakers

$50-$60M: Philadelphia

$40M-$50M: Dallas (if Parsons opts out), Miami

$30M-$40M: Boston, Brooklyn, Charlotte, Detroit, Indiana, Memphis, New York, Portland, Utah

$20M-$30M: Atlanta, Denver, Milwaukee, Minnesota, New Orleans, Orlando, Phoenix, Sacramento, Washington

$10M-$2oM: Chicago, Golden State, Houston (unless Howard opts out), L.A. Clippers, Oklahoma City, Toronto

<$10M: Cleveland (when LeBron opts out), San Antonio

No Room: Nobody.

So there are at least 13 teams that will have more money to spend than we will, and another 8 teams with about the same amount. We're clearly better off than about 8 teams. This free agency period is going to be nutso. I wouldn't count on anything.

 

[VF21]

That is a logical trade

Milwaukee is paying Middleton 15 million to be a 3 and D player

We are paying Rudy 12 million to be more than that

Bucks lack perimeter scoring talent

We probably would be better off with a player like Middleton

Logical does not necessarily mean good... We are focused with the Kings, not the Bucks. Logical implies that it is realistic and something that Milwaukee would possibly do (Which is absolutely possible, given their weaknesses). I don't think it would make them all that better, but that is irrelevant to us.

You aren't getting what I'm saying. IF you're going to propose a trade, you need to say why the other team would even consider it. At this point, you're one step away from saying we'll trade Ben for Lebron. Hey, it's not good for Cleveland but that's irrelevant.

 

[KingMilz]

But this is where coaching comes into place. Karl has to teach Rudy to give 100% on the defensive end all the time and to get rid of the ball on offense quicker, when there is no good look.

He's been in the NBA for a near decade and has never done either of those things, with his athletic ability declining and his already low basketball IQ I don't think his defense is going to get better nor will his decision making. That's not on the coach coaches should not be teaching effort they have other things to worry about.

 

[VF21]

We created the Personnel Moves forum so that the Kings Rap forum wouldn't get clogged up with trade ideas. Since this thread has morphed into the exact reason the forum was started, I've moved the thread.