Bonzi on 1140 this morning

[thesanityannex]

Everyone says this - but there is no proof of this. Artest has never said it, intimated it ... nor has Miller.

There is also no proof that it isn't true.

Miller plays on one end and has a unique skillset on that end. But, he's hardly a great player.

Hardly great? Who are you kidding. Two time all-star and one of only three players to be in an all-star game without having been drafted.

I can agree Thomas is mediocre, but Reef is not. At least both of them play on both ends of the court ... making them "complete" players.

They both produce mediocre numbers for a PF, making them both mediocre. Maybe slightly higher than mediocre.

Miller - at the 4? You're kidding right?

He'll get killed. He might have had a good stint in the past, but he's not fast enough or tough enough to guard what is arguably the toughest position in the NBA.

Top PF's kill anyone they play. Miller produced extremely well while at the four and his skillset and range could provide for some matchup problems.

 

[kingrooster]

I still stand by the fact that this team will be nothing more than a lottery team / first round exit team until they utilize a player that can use the post.

I know Artest is good down there, but he's not someone that can take that all year and be the go to option in the post. He's a secondary post option, at most.

But that player simply does not exist outside of players that are completely untouchable. Shaq/Duncan are not going anywhere. Artest/Reef/Bonzi are pretty damn good with their backs to the baskets. Lack of a low post presence isn't one of our fundamental problems right now.

Unless you get a KG - Miller is the one that I see as the biggest issue on the roster if you want to make it past the first round. Yes, you get the outside shooting, but you don't need that from a big man and for the most part ... don't want it.

He's a pathetic defender both in terms of effort and talent. He's abysmal in the paint.

If you get that "bruising" PF everyone seems to salivate over ... you don't get the offense you need from the post to be effective over a 7 game series.

If I were GM, and this is throwing out my love for Reef, my first move would be to replace Miller as my center. He's talented and can get a lot in return. He's PERFECT with the right pieces around him, but I don't think anyone is perfect other than KG.

Well, unless you get a KG, getting rid of Miller is a bad move. He spreads the floor and opens up the middle for guys like Artest and Bonzi to operate down there. He draws the big men away from the paint. You simply cannot leave Miller open at that elbow... or even at the three point line. Yeah, he is a pretty pathetic defender, which is why we need a defensive minded PF to compensate for his lack of... athletic ability. I wouldn't say a "brusing" PF is the correct term. We need a solid shot blocker, who can rebound, and finish around the basket who does not demand the ball. Think of a tall, athletic Kenny Thomas. If he could block shots, he'd be what we neeeded.

 

[Troy]

I was thinking about the move of Brad to the 4, but that is a very hard position as many have said. Brad isn't a typical 5 anyways, so as long as we get an athletic big man that isn't going to demand the ball, can play good D, and grab rebounds like nobodies business, we are good to go. The offense flows through Brad as it is so let's just get that big guy to do the stuff a typical 5 would do.

While I like KT's effort and his recent play has been pretty good, he is at least 3" too short to play the PF position, regardless of how quick he is. I live Bonzi alot, but don't want to stunt KMart's growth, he is our future. I'd like to see a sign and trade and combined with SAR or KT should bring us good utility for a big guy.

With the way Petrie has shook stuff up big time by trading away Christie, BJ, Webber, and Peja. I think we can expect the same to happen with the Philly 3 guys with "moveable pieces". SAR is a good value as a 6th man and I would mind him keep this role, but we need a dominant and athletic, big PF, no way around that. Then we can go somewhere beyond the 1st round of the playoffs.

 

[MrBiggs]

There is also no proof that it isn't true.

What? Are you serious? You can't just throw up stuff like that on the board and hope it sticks.

Check this out: I've got a woman dancing on my desk right now. Prove it wrong. Since you can't, it must be true, right?

 

[thesanityannex]

What? Are you serious? You can't just throw up stuff like that on the board and hope it sticks.

Did you even read what this was in response to? Playmaker0017 says there is no proof that Miller keeps Artest in check. I say Miller keeps him in check. He has no proof that Miller doesn't. I have no proof that Miller does. So, can we say either is true or untrue?

 

[thesanityannex]

Check this out: I've got a woman dancing on my desk right now. Prove it wrong. Since you can't, it must be true, right?

Sure. Unless you are telling a lie. And if you are speaking the truth, I am jealous.

 

[playmaker0017]

There is also no proof that it isn't true.

That's absurd logic.

Then I think it's really the Ghost of Christmas Past that is keeping Artest in check. You don't have proof against it.

Or perhaps it's Casper the Ghost. Or the New Year's Spirit.

That may be the worst argument for anything ... ever.

Hardly great? Who are you kidding. Two time all-star and one of only three players to be in an all-star game without having been drafted.

All-star games mean what? That you're more popular than the next guy and are exciting to watch.

If we're using All-Star appearances as our barometer of greatness than we're in trouble.

They both produce mediocre numbers for a PF, making them both mediocre. Maybe slightly higher than mediocre.

All I can say to that:
There aren't many PFs that can get 17PPG on 11SPG.

I would assume Reef's numbers would be a little more impressive had he not been an eleventh wheel in the Adelman creation.

Top PF's kill anyone they play.

Is that true? Seems paradoxical! What if two top PFs meet? Does the universe implode?

Seriously though, I do remember a pretty decent PF that dropped 50 on Ben Wallace (who is known to be a pretty good defender).

Top PFs don't "kill" anyone they play. They kill weaker competition and go par on the other good ones.

Brad can't match up against "mediocre" PFs - much less the tough ones.

Miller produced extremely well while at the four and his skillset and range could provide for some matchup problems.

The thing is no one takes Miller seriously. It's not that he's that great - it's that no one cares until Miller buries about 10 jumpers. Then they move a man out on him and he's shut down for the remainder of the game.

 

[thesanityannex]

That's absurd logic.

That may be the worst argument for anything ... ever.

Do you really believe that having Miller, a long time friend of Artest, has no bearing on keeping Artest in check?

All-star games mean what? That you're more popular than the next guy and are exciting to watch.

If we're using All-Star appearances as our barometer of greatness than we're in trouble.

Yeah, I bet Miller was voted on for his popularity and exciting play. He sure is a fan favorite. I guess getting on team USA doesn't mean anything either.

The thing is no one takes Miller seriously. It's not that he's that great - it's that no one cares until Miller buries about 10 jumpers. Then they move a man out on him and he's shut down for the remainder of the game.

Sounds good to me. With your scenario, Miller would be averaging 20 a game. After he's been figured out, he can just hand out assists. I like your line of thinking.

 

[playmaker0017]

But that player simply does not exist outside of players that are completely untouchable. Shaq/Duncan are not going anywhere. Artest/Reef/Bonzi are pretty damn good with their backs to the baskets. Lack of a low post presence isn't one of our fundamental problems right now.

I believe you're mistaken.

Artest is going to be nasty in the post, but without another player to draw coverage he'll get eaten up. He's produced well in the past by having an extremely well cast team around him and another player that can control the paint. Right now he doesn't have that luxury.

Bonzi is a mismatch, but not good enough to really exploit it for the most part. He's not that good when fed the ball, he's much better as a garbage man. But, simply posting up a SG is not really going to work in the playoffs unless your SG is MJ.

Reef sits the bench and when he plays, he's closer to the 3 point line than the paint. So, he's a non-factor.

So, what you've got is reliance on SG/SF for your points in the paint. That may work in the regular season, but it won't get it done in the playoffs.

I love Reef and think he'd do an admirable job ... perhaps you DO need someone else ... but you DO need a player that can control the paint. Webber used to be that guy. Not necessarily "owning" the paint, but he could dominate close to the basket and control the game. The only player with a skillset like Webber's is KG. But, be realistic ... you aren't getting him.

Well, unless you get a KG, getting rid of Miller is a bad move. He spreads the floor and opens up the middle for guys like Artest and Bonzi to operate down there.

It's interesting that no other team has a player like Miller yet they somehow manage to spread the floor for thier players to operate in the post. Then later on you mention getting a PF who plays exclusively in the paint ... so that "magical" lane opening that Miller just did was negated by a PF who can't step out.

A center who pops jumpers isn't that great of an asset unless you are playing olympic style basketball.

Why would anyone want their 7 footer to sit 12 feet out and not get in their for rebounds and tips and disrupting the other team?

Yeah, he is a pretty pathetic defender, which is why we need a defensive minded PF to compensate for his lack of... athletic ability. I wouldn't say a "brusing" PF is the correct term. We need a solid shot blocker, who can rebound, and finish around the basket who does not demand the ball. Think of a tall, athletic Kenny Thomas. If he could block shots, he'd be what we neeeded.

Okay, so now that we realize that you need KG or Tim Duncan ... let's get back to reality.

You've got a center who is an absolute plug on defense ... so you want to build around him?

Then you've got a PG that is an absolute plug on defense and you want to build around him too?

I don't understand the desire to love on the two guys that are the worst defenders on the team.

Before I get banned again - this isn't "pro-Reef". It's just an honest look from my vantage point. Is Reef the answer? No, I don't think so, but I think he does more in his minutes than people give him credit for and he plays on both ends of the court, which is more than I can say for the vaunted "core 3".

 

[playmaker0017]

Do you really believe that having Miller, a long time friend of Artest, has no bearing on keeping Artest in check?

No, I don't.

Artest has had friends in a lot of locations and it's never made a difference. I just don't think that Miller and Artest are super-buddies with wonder-twin powers activated or anything like you are making it out.

I guess getting on team USA doesn't mean anything either.

Well, he hasn't "gotten on the team" yet ... he was offered a try out.

As for the team ... no, not really. But, again, if we're using that barometer - Reef was part of the last winning olympic team. Go figure.

Sounds good to me. With your scenario, Miller would be averaging 20 a game. After he's been figured out, he can just hand out assists. I like your line of thinking.

Nope. Because the simple fact is, he rarely does it. He goes in spurts. One night he's plain nasty and then the next his shot looks like rotten turd. Which is why people leave him open and don't come out on him.

Why does everyone sit back on this "he gets assists" notion. For the most part they are garbage assists. He didn't DO anything. He makes pretty simple passes. Granted - he sees the floor well for a center. But, he's not DOING anything. He's not MAKING people better.

 

[RaY Z]

wonderful.. ohh how i missed you playmaker...

 

[thesanityannex]

Why would anyone want their 7 footer to sit 12 feet out and not get in their for rebounds and tips and disrupting the other team?

No one would choose that, you are right. But good centers are a rarity. And we have one. He may not be the best defender, but his offense makes up for it. And since he is 12 feet out, this also means the opposing center is 12 feet out. This gives Artest/Thomas/Reef/Bonzi more opportunities to rebound, where they have an advantage over most.

You've got a center who is an absolute plug on defense ... so you want to build around him?

Then you've got a PG that is an absolute plug on defense and you want to build around him too?

I don't understand the desire to love on the two guys that are the worst defenders on the team.

Are you suggesting we build around Reef? The dude who's watched more playoffs than anyone still in the league?

Is Reef the answer? No, I don't think so, but I think he does more in his minutes than people give him credit for and he plays on both ends of the court, which is more than I can say for the vaunted "core 3".

I think Reef does an excellent job with the minutes he is given. A superb job at that. By the way, its now the "core 2".

 

[RaY Z]

ohhh i know this is like the worst arguement ever but yeah i believe that what ur saying may work out too but right now what rick is doing with the rotation etc seems to be working and i don't think change is needed right now especially at this time of the year... mabye change can be tested next season? but certainly not this season...

 

[thesanityannex]

I just don't think that Miller and Artest are super-buddies with wonder-twin powers activated or anything like you are making it out.

They have wonder-twin powers? This is news to me!!!! I just said they were friends and Miller, being the vet that he is, can probably calm Artest down.

Granted - he sees the floor well for a center. But, he's not DOING anything. He's not MAKING people better.

That is laughable. Do you watch anything but SAR when the games being played?

 

[RaY Z]

They have wonder-twin powers? This is news to me!!!! I just said they were friends and Miller, being the vet that he is, can probably calm Artest down.
That is laughable. Do you watch anything but SAR when the games being played?

excatly sar can certainly not pass like miller or c-webb did... he doesnt use the bounce pass very effectively and if he usually gets an assist through someone slashing, its usually a non bounce pass which is riskier, which is why he does make a number of turnovers, especially when rick tried to put him in chris' role...

but rick now knows that sar cannot play the role c-webb did for us in the past so he has used reef's natural skills which has had an impact our team more postively, such as passsing OUT OF THE POST and getting nice inside shots with creative post moves...

i even think kenny can be more effective on the bounce pass to slashing players becasue from the games ive seen this sesaon he has made great back door passes to cutting players... but i could be a lil buyest cuz i love K-9 as a player

but i still love SAR too and i love what he has brought to the team but i just don't think he can make players around him better... still he can help a team through he's individual skills...

 

[playmaker0017]

No one would choose that, you are right. But good centers are a rarity. And we have one. He may not be the best defender, but his offense makes up for it. And since he is 12 feet out, this also means the opposing center is 12 feet out. This gives Artest/Thomas/Reef/Bonzi more opportunities to rebound, where they have an advantage over most.

Actually, Miller makes most of his shots because the opposing center is still in the lane and won't come out and guard Miller until Miller proves he's on.

Then they shut him down.

Are you suggesting we build around Reef? The dude who's watched more playoffs than anyone still in the league?

Did I, anywhere in this thread or any other, intimate that? No. In fact, I've said the exact opposite.

By the way, its now the "core 2".

Exactly, because the "core now gone" wasn't what you once thought he was.

I'm going to break it softly to everyone ... neither is the remaining "core 2".

 

[RaY Z]

Actually, Miller makes most of his shots because the opposing center is still in the lane and won't come out and guard Miller until Miller proves he's on.

Then they shut him down.

there are very few center's in this league that are comfortable with guarding players in the permiter who can shoot

 

[playmaker0017]

excatly sar can certainly not pass like miller or c-webb did... he doesnt use the bounce pass very effectively and if he usually gets an assist through someone slashing, its usually a non bounce pass which is riskier, which is why he does make a number of turnovers, especially when rick tried to put him in chris' role...

Really? A lot of turnovers when he's passing?

News to me ... right before Reef got hurt, there was an interesting article on 82games.com that talked about that.

In fact, they mentioned Reef's name. It was for having the 18th most efficient assist without turnover rating.

Interesting how you can see one thing and then the dang stats just tell a whole different story. Crazy.

but rick knows that sar cannot play the role c-webb did for us in the past

Again, I'm calling BS.

When we ran the "C-Webb Princeton Offense" in the beginning of the season - Reef's assist numbers were up near 4 a game and increasing before we switched up the offense.

Remind me what Chris Webber averaged as a King? 4.4, if I did the math correctly.

so he has used reef's natural skills which has had an impact our team more postively, such as passsing OUT OF THE POST and getting nice inside shots with creative post moves...

Now, I agree here. I think Adelman, despite my insistance that he's pig-headed in his reliance on his system, realized Reef is more comfortable in the post, so he moved him there.

4 games later - there was a dramatic increase, despite a sore back, in his production offensively. Go Adelman!

i juts don't think he can make players around him better... still he can help a team trhough he's individual skills...

Reef doesn't make players around him better. I'll admit it. He's not that kind of guy, personality wise or talent-wise. It's not his style.

 

[RaY Z]

why are u basing a players skill on stats???? i know it can be a very important part to it... but common intagibles such as the natrual ability to pass and making players around him/her better can never been seen in stats...

and becasue of the way adleman coaches players often have career-high assist averages here.. well the big guys anyway in which as the princeton offense is run through each player therefore dropping the assist number for the point but raising the assist numbers for fowards and centers...

just take a look at kenny, shareef and brad's assist numbers before they came here....

and another the thing the team C-webb was in was totally different to the team we have now in the fact that the team before all were basically great passers which shared the assist numbers across the team

 

[thesanityannex]

Exactly, because the "core now gone" wasn't what you once thought he was.

I'm going to break it softly to everyone ... neither is the remaining "core 2".

What I once thought it was? You read minds now too? I never considered that to be the "core". I considered it to be what it was, three vets on a once great team. Petrie labeled them the core, not me.

You speak of Bibby and Miller as if they are nothings. Well, those nothings have been to the playoffs.

 

[Warhawk]

Ok, so, anyone have anything else to offer on topic, since this has degenerated, yet again, into a Brad and playmaker "SAR" thread?

 

[thesanityannex]

nothing. they both played great. as one had hoped. its a victory.

 

[VF21]

Oh, lord grant me strength.



Nice thread hijacking, playmaker. You were sooooo missed during your hiatus.

 

[VF21]

The Kings might be smart to ship off Bonzi/Reef as a package. Reef is going to be cool through the rest of this year off the bench, but won't stand for it next year.

That's the biggest load of crap I've read in a long time.

You continue to amaze and astound me with your ability to make it look like SAR is a problem, a trouble-maker, etc. He's not; it's a shame he has to have someone like you trying to represent him on this board. He quite frankly deserves better.

 

[SacTownKid]

I've watched Kenny Thomas for the last year now and I have come to the conclusion that he is NOT a mediocre ball player.

 

[Kings113]

I've watched Kenny Thomas for the last year now and I have come to the conclusion that he is NOT a mediocre ball player.

Agreed. He good.

 

[kingrooster]

I've watched Kenny Thomas for the last year now and I have come to the conclusion that he is NOT a mediocre ball player.

Yes yes. He's provided everything we've needed from that position besides shot blocking. Hustle and rebounding every single game. Lately, he's been knocking down that 17 foot jumper and not turning the ball over too, which is pretty much a bonus. Great stretch from Kenny...

Now, back on topic... So... Bonzi on 1140, eh?

 

[playmaker0017]

Nice thread hijacking, playmaker. You were sooooo missed during your hiatus.

Hey - read the progression - it wasn't me that brought Reef into this.

I said again and again, this isn't about Reef.

It started about Bonzi. I said I'd ship both out. Then it went into Miller and some PF ... I went on about Miller. But, others brought up Reef.

Sorry, no hijacking here.

Just because I say something doesn't mean it's all about Reef, thanks.

 

[playmaker0017]

That's the biggest load of crap I've read in a long time.

Okay, please point out the crap.

You continue to amaze and astound me with your ability to make it look like SAR is a problem, a trouble-maker, etc. He's not; it's a shame he has to have someone like you trying to represent him on this board. He quite frankly deserves better.

Asking for a trade in the offseason because you don't want to play off the bench during your "prime" years is hardly being a problem.

He just won't want to be a King if that's going to be his role.

He could have done that and played on much more talented teams and been rest assured of a high playoff seed. Instead he choose to go to a place where he felt he'd have an opportunity to flourish and contribute to a winning franchise.

See - you and most people here are Kings' fans first. So, anyone not wanting to be a part of the wonderful world of Adelman must be a problem ... but that's not the case. He won't "raise a stink" or "pout" ... as he hasn't. But, if he's going to be asked to be off the bench for 25 minutes a night next year, don't expect him to wear Kings colors.

 

[RaY Z]

can you read like read shareef's mind? are you like psychic?

OMG! are you actually THE SHAREEF ABDUR-RAHIM!!!?????