Blow It Up

[Joshoua]

On Carmichael Dave show, it is said that Monte has several potential trades that he can pull the trigger on at some point.

From bigger deals to smaller ones. Pressure is on him from above to make a change but he’s also not going to make a move to make a move. If teams won’t meet an asking price or drop theirs, then those deals won’t happen.

The Vucecic/Chicago deal is a blueprint. Looking for that guy who might be out there that may involve a player and protected picks.

And CD speculated as has many others, the public statement is they won’t blow it up because that does hurt negotiations. You say you are pushing for the playoffs and negotiate from that stance.

If we get a Grant and Turner, depending on what we have to give up, those 2 guys do improve the defense…..so there’s that

Listen I don’t care if we get Grant for a 2025 2nd round pick I don’t want that clown here

 

[kb02]

Now CD is on Twitter schilling John Collins for a starter (Barnes?) and a first. Collins would automatically become the Kings best shooting big, but dude has the same defensive issues as Holmes and is, at best, a tick better as a passer. That is just so underwhelming. Go after Sabonis, Monte!

 

[pdxKingsFan]

For everything about Vlade, absent the Philly trade Vlade actually made good trades. The problem for Vlade was his drafting was crap…

but consider.
Bellineli for the 22nd 16 pick

8th (Chriss) for Bogi, 13th and 28th

Cousins for Hield and the 10th pick, plus Evans, Galloway, etc.

If Vlade had even average draft acumen I don’t think you reverse any of those picks. The problem Vlade had is he couldn’t positively leverage any of the draft capital he accumulated.

I also thought he did well to get Shump here, the trade to bring Barnes here and then re-sign him at a lower contract wasn't too bad, and even the idea of the 10th pick being traded would have been sound had he not whiffed on both the picks he acquired.

It's hard for me to even hold the Philly trade against him because it was the result of one of Petrie's biggest whiffs combined with the Stepien rule that forced Vlade to make a very bad trade instead of a moderately bad one.

But it can't be understated how awful he was in the draft. I don't think he hit on a single second rounder either?

 

[SacTownKid]

Grant and Turner as a package would be a disaster IMO.

Yes, they'd improve the frontcourt defense but both are very poor rebounders for their positions, both want more touches on offense, and both are FAs after next season.

Of the two I'd rather have Turner, depending on the price. He provides better shotblocking and floor spacing and I think he's a better fit with Fox & Haliburton. I don't think there's reasonable a three team deal for Fox that nets Ben Simmons, but Turner would also be a better fit with Simmons, just on the outside chance that happens.

But Holmes to Charlotte for PJ Washington and change definitely makes sense.

Turner, Washington, Fox & Haliburton is a step in the right direction. The team would still need starting caliber wings but at the very least the team needs to start actually building a complimentary roster if they are really going to try and make things work with the Fox/Haliburton backcourt. A 3&D SF helps get you there.

Then they'll need to hit in the draft. Jabari Smith or Paulo Banchero are good fits at PF. Banchero would definitely benefit from a 5 that can spot up. Holmgren fascinates me though. Could he play the same type of role as Evan Mobley, as a big, skilled PF next to a traditional center? Mobley is much quicker laterally which lets him switch more easily on the perimter, but Holmgren is a better shotblocker and both are unselfish, versatile, and high IQ players.

If they Kings don't get lucky in the lottery there are several wings that should be available around their pick that could help. Kendall Brown, Adrian Griffin Jr, Benedict Mathurin, maybe even Tari Eason (who I'm high on) or Patrick Baldwin (who I'm not as high on but who should fare better in the NBA game.)

Hopefully McNair makes the right moves. Standing pat would be pretty much unacceptable at this point (I'd be completely done for this season and maybe beyond) but ill conceived "win now" moves could be worse. I don't have high hopes for trade deadline moves but I'd love to be wrong.

I think Grant and Turner would be better than anything Monte could hope for to be honest. Talk about putting a perfect team on paper around Haliburton/Fox. As for FA, it might come at a steep price but they'll both take the money. Especially Turner who has never been that paid.

 

[ESP47]

Yea, I hate hindsight experts. Simple math says its more advantageous to select from a larger pool than a smaller one, especially if the larger pool contains each member of the smaller pool.

Ah. the old "Why didn't the Kings just select every star player picked after them?" trope. Classic.

Mainly because teams are really bad at drafting and talent evaluation. No one hits a home-run on every 1st round pick year after year. But what bad teams (in any sport really) will do is give themselves at the top end talent and give themselves multiple opportunities to hit on franchise.

Put yourself in the top 5 picks, give yourself the overwhelmingly better odds to select a franchise cornerstone. This stuff isn't hard. Of course you can select the Marvin Bagley in the top 5. You can also select the Zion Williamson/Ja Morant/LaMelo Ball/Evan Mobley/Cade Cunningham/Ant Edwards. And it just takes one to change your team's course.

But it's just a circular argument we have every year because the Kings refuse to let us actually have fun watching the basketball team lol.

We all play revisionist history with Doncic because he was the clear fan favorite for the pick. I think something like 60% of fans wanted to draft him with most the rest of the votes spread out between Bagley, Ayton, JJJ and Trae.

Stauskas was a bad pick but we wouldn't be anywhere better with Payton or Vonleh, whom were among the favorites. McLemore was considered by many the BPA, which is why I've never faulted the org for that pick. Jimmer was a terrible pick from the onset and most people agreed with that. Most people were perfectly fine with WCS. TRob was mixed. He was thought of as BPA by some but there was a lot of talk about Lillard, Barnes and Drummond as well.

The one that bugs me is the revisionist history on Curry vs. Evans. Most everyone wanted Evans over Curry. Curry was looked at as a zero defense sharp shooter combo guard type by many. Sort of a rich man's Jimmer. Evans was like a poor man's LeBron. I don't think there was a ton of debate over that one but maybe my memory is fading. Same with choosing Donovan Mitchell. There were only a couple of people wanting Mitchell. Most of the rest of us didn't want him merely because we had just drafted Fox and already had Hield and didn't see the need to add another guard when there were plenty of other good players left on the table at positions of need.

 

[24 rick barry]

You just used revisionist history to say that the Kings could have drafted all the best players without taking into account that many of those players weren't even on the radar. Tell me the Kings could have drafted Klay or Kawhi instead of Jimmer and I'll buy that. But saying they could have drafted Jokic or Dinwiddie instead of Stauskas is completely unrealistic. Yeah they could have drafted them but none of those guys were even remotely on the radar for the 8th pick.

Its like saying any competent NFL franchise should have picked Tom Brady in the first 6 rounds. Very easy to say in 2022 but go back to a day before the draft and make me a list of competent people who said Brady should have gone #1. I'm pretty sure only his mom would be on that list.

Only his mom? Not even his dad?

 

[ESP47]

Only his mom? Not even his dad?

Think his dad was a Peyton fan.

 

[The_Jamal]

Now CD is on Twitter schilling John Collins for a starter (Barnes?) and a first. Collins would automatically become the Kings best shooting big, but dude has the same defensive issues as Holmes and is, at best, a tick better as a passer. That is just so underwhelming. Go after Sabonis, Monte!

This may come as a surprise from me but i'd rather get the FIT of Collins with Fox/Hali for cheaper than pay up for Sabonis. Collins is really really good, I think it's fair to say he's a fringe, all-star type. Gives Fox the big man spacer he desperately needs and he's an elite PnR/PnP partner with Hali and only 24 so he lines up well with their age curve to enter their prime.

 

[kb02]

This may come as a surprise from me but i'd rather get the FIT of Collins with Fox/Hali for cheaper than pay up for Sabonis. Collins is really really good, I think it's fair to say he's a fringe, all-star type. Gives Fox the big man spacer he desperately needs and he's an elite PnR/PnP partner with Hali and only 24 so he lines up well with their age curve to enter their prime.

I don't know man. I like his shooting and the age arc, but he doesn't solve the second connector issues on offense and he needs a legit 5 next to him on defense.

 

[The_Jamal]

I don't know man. I like his shooting and the age arc, but he doesn't solve the second connector issues on offense and he needs a legit 5 next to him on defense.

Agreed. It's not perfect, but Hali/Fox/Collins would be by far the most talented trio we've had in 15 years all on the same timeline. And if we're going to be incredibly dumb and continue to try and win, we may as well do it somewhat intelligently. Defensive 5's that can rim protect are much easier to find than defensive 4's that can rim protect which Sabonis clearly needs to succeed. And I'm not giving up hope, Holmes can return to form from his injury where he's an impactful defender.

 

[kb02]

Agreed. It's not perfect, but Hali/Fox/Collins would be by far the most talented trio we've had in 15 years all on the same timeline. And if we're going to be incredibly dumb and continue to try and win, we may as well do it somewhat intelligently. Defensive 5's that can rim protect are much easier to find than defensive 4's that can rim protect which Sabonis clearly needs to succeed. And I'm not giving up hope, Holmes can return to form from his injury where he's an impactful defender.

I don't think Collins and Holmes can play together. If Collins comes, Holmes either moves down to the bench and Len gets promoted or Holmes goes out for something else. I think they'll have the same issues that Bags and Holmes has. All three are undersized and better as off the ball defenders.

 

[steelevt]

Now CD is on Twitter schilling John Collins for a starter (Barnes?) and a first. Collins would automatically become the Kings best shooting big, but dude has the same defensive issues as Holmes and is, at best, a tick better as a passer. That is just so underwhelming. Go after Sabonis, Monte!

But sabonis would cost more than a starter like Barnes or buddy and a (hopefully protected) first round pick right? I think the comparable pacers to get at that price is Turner. I like the shot blocking stretch big angle but he’s only signed for 2 years.

 

[kb02]

But sabonis would cost more than a starter like Barnes or buddy and a (hopefully protected) first round pick right? I think the comparable pacers to get at that price is Turner. I like the shot blocking stretch big angle but he’s only signed for 2 years.

Collins is cheaper than Sabonis. He’s good, but I’m not convinced he’s enough of a talent upgrade to really move the needle. Like, if u think about it, Randle is maybe just a tick below Collins. Neither are game changers and would just be a desperation move.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

We all play revisionist history with Doncic because he was the clear fan favorite for the pick. I think something like 60% of fans wanted to draft him with most the rest of the votes spread out between Bagley, Ayton, JJJ and Trae.

I don't know the exact % but I think 60 sounds fair, we all agree that if Phoenix picked Ayton that well over half the fanbase was salivating over Doncic. To me that makes it a no brainer even if you get it wrong.

I'll go back to Portland picking Oden over KD. The perception was that it was still a big man's league and Oden was going to be a generational big man and they did some kind of fan vote at the time and Oden won out. Obviously they got it way wrong but they got off fairly easily with the fans because everyone knows they did what the fans asked. Also they got a lot of other things right and have rebuilt twice while we've floundered but that's a story for a different day. Bottom line is if you second guess the majority of the fans you better be dead certain you got it right.

 

[The_Jamal]

Collins is cheaper than Sabonis. He’s good, but I’m not convinced he’s enough of a talent upgrade to really move the needle. Like, if u think about it, Randle is maybe just a tick below Collins. Neither are game changers and would just be a desperation move.

Huh?

Collins is a significant talent upgrade. And a lot of impact metrics really like his improvement on interior D this year too. His impact stats are incredible this year as well:

LEBRON: +1.2
RAPTOR: +5.4
LA-RAPM- +0.3
BPM: +2.0
VORP: +1.4
ON/Off Net Rtg: +3.7
WS/48: .165


His impact numbers are similar last year too, so you're looking at a pretty large sample of a 23-24 year old putting up all-star level impact that might come at a discount because the Hawks are facing major cap issues.. And he's signed long-term, so you don't have to sweat the Sabonis UFA in 2 years. And just the way he plays fits so conductively to what Hali/Fox like to do.

The defense would need work, but at least we'd have something real to build off of. Find the right defensive role playing wing(s) and a 5 and you got the bones of a playoff team.

 

[kb02]

Huh?

Collins is a significant talent upgrade. And a lot of impact metrics really like his improvement on interior D this year too. His impact stats are incredible this year as well:

LEBRON: +1.2
RAPTOR: +5.4
LA-RAPM- +0.3
BPM: +2.0
VORP: +1.4
ON/Off Net Rtg: +3.7
WS/48: .165


His impact numbers are similar last year too, so you're looking at a pretty large sample of a 23-24 year old putting up all-star level impact that might come at a discount because the Hawks are facing major cap issues.. And he's signed long-term, so you don't have to sweat the Sabonis UFA in 2 years. And just the way he plays fits so conductively to what Hali/Fox like to do.

The defense would need work, but at least we'd have something real to build off of. Find the right defensive role playing wing(s) and a 5 and you got the bones of a playoff team.

Here’s Collins vs. Bagley for this year. Collins is undoubtedly the superior player, but I don’t see a game changing jump.

https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm...r_id1=collijo01&p2yrfrom=2022&sum=0&request=1

And if you’re acquiring Collins, you better hope Fox is a star. He’s not and the Kings have essentially killed their ability to get a star through the draft barring a Giannis like miracle.

 

[The_Jamal]

Here’s Collins vs. Bagley for this year. Collins is undoubtedly the superior player, but I don’t see a game changing jump.

https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm...r_id1=collijo01&p2yrfrom=2022&sum=0&request=1

And if you’re acquiring Collins, you better hope Fox is a star. He’s not and the Kings have essentially killed their ability to get a star through the draft barring a Giannis like miracle.

again huh? All im seeing is how vastly superior Collins is in every way? How is 10% TS, 5% AST, 17% from 3 on more volume not significant? Virtually the same USG and TOV rates. And that's not even including the impact numbers for Bagley (which, granted are actually better than I thought they were going to be. But still not great and far far below Collins). Literally the only thing Bagley has over Collins the rebound rate and I think that could be attributed to playing with Clint Capela over Richaun Holmes.

LEBRON: 0.0
RAPTOR: +1.0
LA-RAPM: +1.4
BPM: -3.4
VORP: -0.3
WS/48: .075
On/Off Net RTg: +2.5 (Kind of interesting here. Offense is 5.5 better with him on, but defense is 3 points worse with him off. Eye test would say he's had more impact on defense than offense this year).


I'll give it to Bagley, he's actually been producing like a serviceable 8th-9th man this year and the numbers/eye test back that up. But with Collins you're basically jumping to all-star production/impact. So I ask again, how is Collins not a game-changing jump?

 

[kb02]

again huh? All im seeing is how vastly superior Collins is in every way? How is 10% TS, 5% AST, 17% from 3 on more volume not significant? Virtually the same USG and TOV rates. And that's not even including the impact numbers for Bagley (which, granted are actually better than I thought they were going to be. But still not great and far far below Collins). Literally the only thing Bagley has over Collins the rebound rate and I think that could be attributed to playing with Clint Capela over Richaun Holmes.

LEBRON: 0.0
RAPTOR: +1.0
LA-RAPM: +1.4
BPM: -3.4
VORP: -0.3
WS/48: .075
On/Off Net RTg: +2.5 (Kind of interesting here. Offense is 5.5 better with him on, but defense is 3 points worse with him off. Eye test would say he's had more impact on defense than offense this year).


I'll give it to Bagley, he's actually been producing like a serviceable 8th-9th man this year and the numbers/eye test back that up. But with Collins you're basically jumping to all-star production/impact. So I ask again, how is Collins not a game-changing jump?

The stats are self evident. Is Collins a better player? Absolutely. Is he a game changing talent? He’s not. His defensive stats are basically the same level as Bagley’s and he’s a worse rebounder. He does provide better offensive efficiency, but is it game changing? It’s not. Kings really going to sacrifice a first and likely Barnes for that? If they do, it’s desperation.

 

[The_Jamal]

The stats are self evident. Is Collins a better player? Absolutely. Is he a game changing talent? He’s not. His defensive stats are basically the same level as Bagley’s and he’s a worse rebounder. He does provide better offensive efficiency, but is it game changing? It’s not. Kings really going to sacrifice a first and likely Barnes for that? If they do, it’s desperation.

Whatever, I guess. I showed you the impact difference. You can dig your heels in as you usually do. All i'll say is if all it costs us is Barnes/FRP for Collins, that'd be a huge miss for Monte. Not desperation.

 

[kb02]

Whatever, I guess. I showed you the impact difference. You can dig your heels in as you usually do. All i'll say is if all it costs us is Barnes/FRP for Collins, that'd be a huge miss for Monte. Not desperation.

Did you even look at the normalized stats? I don’t know how you look at that comparison and conclude that Collins is a game changing talent. He’s cheap relative to Sabonis for a reason. Getting him would be a mistake,

 

[EIM86]

Whatever, I guess. I showed you the impact difference. You can dig your heels in as you usually do. All i'll say is if all it costs us is Barnes/FRP for Collins, that'd be a huge miss for Monte. Not desperation.

we can have a legit 1-3 scoring options with this trio and then two 3 and D guys (way easier to find). This team would be WATCHABLE

 

[The_Jamal]

Did you even look at the normalized stats? I don’t know how you look at that comparison and conclude that Collins is a game changing talent. He’s cheap relative to Sabonis for a reason. Getting him would be a mistake,

No I didn't. Stuff like PPG/APG/RPG don't matter. Extremely outdated. It's just a generic snapshot of a player, they don't dive into anything real.

 

[SacTownKid]

Collins is a bit different since he can throw it down and shoot 3's out of pick and roll via Fox/Haliburton but loading up at PF, yeah, not really something teams should be doing these days. Period. There is a reason you are hearing almost NOTHING but PF names being tossed around recently.

 

[kb02]

No I didn't. Stuff like PPG/APG/RPG don't matter. Extremely outdated. It's just a generic snapshot of a player, they don't dive into anything real.

Here’s a comp between Harrison Barnes vs. John Collins. They’re pretty much even. Collins would be playing the same 4 spot as Barnes. Only reason why Collins is more valuable than Barnes is age.

https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm...rfrom=2022&player_id2=barneha02&p2yrfrom=2022

 

[kb02]

Collins is a bit different since he can throw it down and shoot 3's out of pick and roll via Fox/Haliburton but loading up at PF, yeah, not really something teams should be doing these days. Period. There is a reason you are hearing almost NOTHING but PF names being tossed around recently.

He’ll make the Kings a tick better offensively, because he can bomb the three and pick and pop, but he’s maybe an avg passer and a below average defender. An upgrade, but at the cost of a frp? I wouldn’t pay that.

 

[ppine]

I cannot help but think of the Phoenix Suns at a time like this. They won fewer games than the Kings a few years back.
They made some good draft picks in Booker and Ayton, and then got Paul as a free agent. The Kings never seem to attract any good free agents.
The Suns have turned into a great basketball team while the Kings have been losing by 50.

I have enjoyed watching U of Nevada and U of Washington, since I can't get Kings games any longer.

 

[steelevt]

I cannot help but think of the Phoenix Suns at a time like this. They won fewer games than the Kings fa ew years back.
They made some good draft picks in Booker and Ayton, and then got Paul as a free agent. The Kings never seem to attract any good free agents.
The Suns have turned into a great basketball team while the Kings have been losing by 50.

I have enjoyed watching U of Nevada and U of Washington, since I can't get Kings games any longer.

There are few stars that elevate a team that dramatically. I feel Lebron and cp3 can make any bottom dwelling team an instant playoff team.

 

[Spike]

I cannot help but think of the Phoenix Suns at a time like this. They won fewer games than the Kings fa ew years back.
They made some good draft picks in Booker and Ayton, and then got Paul as a free agent. The Kings never seem to attract any good free agents.
The Suns have turned into a great basketball team while the Kings have been losing by 50.

I have enjoyed watching U of Nevada and U of Washington, since I can't get Kings games any longer.

Don't forget their head coach.

 

[sauce-26]

"Inside of two weeks until the February 10 NBA trade deadline, the Kings believe the asking price for Simmons is too steep and that a pathway to reaching an agreement with the Sixers doesn’t exist, sources said."

 

[SLAB]

I’m materializing the Grant for a FRP in my head and the world burning is beautiful.