Blow It Up

[itzcoatl]

I've mulled this over in my mind all season re: Fox's woes.

Along with the other discussions, could it be that Fox completely bought the "bulk up" theory on him improving his play? He busted his tail in the off season to change his body.

Then the season started and he was just a bit slower, just a bit heavier, and not where he expected to be given the effort he put forth. It was as if he betrayed himself with his (and others) advice on how to improve. Now all that off season hard work was not only a waste but a detriment to his play.

Now he is stuck in a unpleasant situation and unsuitable body of his own making. Results have been no longer smiling, no extended conversations with players, and little enthusiasm. I can see it.

building and maintaining muscle mass is really hard. If he was slower and wanted to slim down this would have already been accomplished as just a regular nba schedule is more than enough to wipe out gains unless you’re specifically trying to maintain.

 

[itzcoatl]

You don't need to be a psychiatrist to have experience with depression. I would think that most people have either dealt with it themselves or know somebody who has. That doesn't make you an expert but it does qualify you to have an opinion about it.

I drive a car everyday. Doesn’t make me a mechanic.

 

[steelevt]

I drive a car everyday. Doesn’t make me a mechanic.

Do you have to be a mechanic to know your car has a flat tire or dead battery. I mean I drive my car everyday and don’t need to be a mechanic to know something is wrong.

 

[kb02]

Well, you don't need to be one because his own people are the ones saying that's the reason he's sat out all year and can't (not won't, can't) play basketball. Or don't you believe him? If you don't believe him, isn't that another whole problem that should be considered?

Can Not does not equal Can Never. There are gradients to a diagnosis that I’m not qualified to have an opinion on. Others here, however, are apparently qualified to do so.

 

[itzcoatl]

Do you have to be a mechanic to know your car has a flat tire or dead battery. I mean I drive my car everyday and don’t need to be a mechanic to know something is wrong.

Right. And then you take it to a mechanic. You don’t diagnose it yourself.

 

[steelevt]

Right. And then you take it to a mechanic. You don’t diagnose it yourself.

Actually I “diagnose” a flat tire or dead battery all the time. I’m not a mechanic but can figure out 1. No air in my tire = a flat tire. 2. Car doesn’t turn on, radio doesn’t turn on, lights don’t turn on = possible dead battery. I take it to the mechanic when I don’t know what’s wrong or need to get it fixed. But like I said/implied, I don’t need to be a mechanic or car expert to know some thing is wrong with my car that I drive everyday.

 

[Warhawk]

Can Not does not equal Can Never. There are gradients to a diagnosis that I’m not qualified to have an opinion on. Others here, however, are apparently qualified to do so.

I never said it did. And I don't need to be qualified to do so, as his own mental health experts have been talking with the team and his own representation said that's the problem. Are you calling them liars?

But for those downplaying the potential "mental health" issues, you can't ignore this or assume it's "just a negotiation tactic". He's painting himself into a corner that's going to be hard to get out of, especially is he is just faking the whole thing so he doesn't have to play. Again, is that what you really are looking for in a max contract-type guy? See the articles below.

Report: Rich Paul says 76ers are taking a toll on Ben Simmons mental health - Sports Illustrated

"I truly believe the fines, the targeting, the negative publicity shined on the issue—that’s very unnecessary and has furthered the mental health issues for Ben,” Paul said. “Either you help Ben, or come out and say he’s lying. Which one is it?”

On Nov. 5, the 76ers fined Simmons his $360,000 game salary for missing the game against the Pistons, according to ESPN's Adrian Wojnarowski. The team plans to keep fining the three-time NBA All-Star until he cooperates with team physicians and receives help with his mental health, which he was not accepting. However, Simmons has received help from National Basketball Players Association health professionals.

Philadelphia 76ers guard Ben Simmons deserves your empathy for his mental health struggles (inquirer.com)

It’s time we start admitting that Ben Simmons isn’t faking. It’s time we acknowledge that he very likely isn’t completely mentally healthy. He was cast as the savior of his franchise, but in the biggest moment of his career, in the toughest town on the planet, he choked, and he cost his team everything. He’s heard about it for the last five months.

His stubborn refusal to shoot from the outside and his poor free-throw shooting helped the Sixers lose their second-round playoff series in 2018, 2019, and 2021 (he was injured in the 2020 playoffs). In June, his refusal to dunk with less than four minutes to play in Game 7 against the Atlanta Hawks became perhaps the greatest instance of cowardice and betrayal in Philadelphia sports history.

If you expect a sheltered, spoiled, 25-year-old narcissist to emerge entirely mentally healthy from that maelstrom of adversity, you should have your head examined.

The team has never publicly offered an opinion on Simmons’ mental state, but two Sixers sources say team execs do, in fact, believe that Simmons needs professional help in order to return to being his best self.

“I’m not skeptical. I take Ben Simmons seriously when he raises that,” said Dr. Joel Fish, director of the Center for Sport Psychology in Philadelphia and a former consultant for the Flyers, Phillies, and, yes, the Sixers. “I understand some other people are skeptical about it.”

Fish isn’t working with Simmons, or for the Sixers, right now, but he has worked with hundreds of pro athletes over the last 25 years, and he’s basically seen it all, from every angle.

“Can someone use mental health issues as a reason not to perform? Yeah,” Fish said. “But nine out of 10 of the pro athletes who raised this issue with me are very serious about exploring it. Can one take advantage of it? Sure.”

Athletes usually won’t risk the lingering stigma of being cast as weak-minded in order to manipulate a situation. We see them as supermen and superwomen, but they can be just as fragile as the rest of us.

The pressures they face can be supercharged, and not all of them can endure them without help.

Rich Paul is creating the Ben Simmons noise he claims is hurting his client | PhillyVoice

To date, the defining feature of Team Simmons seems to be misreading the situation and their power. Simmons’ attempt to force his way out of Philadelphia with four years left on his deal has been watched closely not just in the organization, but around the league. Other franchises and the league office are keeping a watchful eye on what they feel could be a precedent-setting situation.

None of that would matter if Simmons was the sort of player who could command an elite-level offer regardless of his displeasure. Treating Simmons as if he was equal to a number of MVP-level players who have forced the hands of other teams in recent years, Paul and Klutch thought they'd have the same success. But other executives watch the playoffs too, and the godfather offer Daryl Morey has held out for hasn’t materialized after Simmons’ public meltdown last June. That’s not to say it won’t, but sifting through what we know about the suitors around the league, you can read the tea leaves easy enough — Simmons is viewed as an additive piece who can raise the level of an established core, not someone you clear the decks for.

When James Harden showed up to Houston out of shape and unwilling to work, it was a nightly story because he was the best player on a team who once took the apex Warriors to the brink. When Anthony Davis began forcing his way out of New Orleans, it was a constant story because the Pelicans had (and still have) zero ability to win without him. Even if his contract was closer to winding down, Simmons doesn't have that sort of juice, no matter how many people he has tried to condescendingly shrug off over the years for questioning the limitations of his game.

So, which is it? Do you believe him or are you saying he is lying? That's the same question his representation is asking.

But also, it seems like every other team reads it the same way the Kings do - he isn't "all that and a bag of chips" as some keep suggesting. He's a very good player, but this situation isn't helping him at all. Hence the reason the unreasonable requests for trade have let this linger for as long as it has. He isn't worth what is being asked for him.

 

[KainLear]

This might be the first time in basketball history where the average age of those guys listed is higher than their basketball IQ, there's no where to grow when aside from Haliburton you got dumb players who rely completely on athletic ability and are limited skill wise.

I'm not sure I agree, or really understand, this train of thought here.

There are many many ways to grow as a basketball player even if you don't have high basketball IQ. All you need is a direction and someone nudging you along the way to it. Who would've wanted Buddy Hield in an open draft if you must have high bball IQ?

 

[itzcoatl]

Actually I “diagnose” a flat tire or dead battery all the time. I’m not a mechanic but can figure out 1. No air in my tire = a flat tire. 2. Car doesn’t turn on, radio doesn’t turn on, lights don’t turn on = possible dead battery. I take it to the mechanic when I don’t know what’s wrong or need to get it fixed. But like I said/implied, I don’t need to be a mechanic or car expert to know some thing is wrong with my car that I drive everyday.

Youre being really silly and misconstruing the metaphor. Driving a car doesn’t make you a mechanic. We can agree on that right? Yes you can understand when there’s an issue with a car. Some simple issues can be diagnosed yourself sure. But to keep the metaphor, mental health is not simple like a flat tire. It’s extremely complex and can get down to chemical imbalances etc. Please stop trying to simplify this very complex.m issue. People go to school for years to become qualified mental health professionals. I’m not one. But I know enough to not try to diagnose through the media.

 

[itzcoatl]

I never said it did.
.

you said that your experience with mental health is sufficient for you to form an opinion on the matter. It might be enough to have a opinion. But probably not one that would carry as much weight as an actual mental health professional.
I’m not quite sure why you’re arguing this basic point which boils down to: lay person opinions are less valuable than expert opinions when it comes to health care matters.

 

[steelevt]

Youre being really silly and misconstruing the metaphor. Driving a car doesn’t make you a mechanic. We can agree on that right? Yes you can understand when there’s an issue with a car. Some simple issues can be diagnosed yourself sure. But to keep the metaphor, mental health is not simple like a flat tire. It’s extremely complex and can get down to chemical imbalances etc. Please stop trying to simplify this very complex.m issue. People go to school for years to become qualified mental health professionals. I’m not one. But I know enough to not try to diagnose through the media.

You brought up the bad analogy. I was just pointing out it’s not equivalent. Someone said you don’t have to be a psychiatrist to experience or know someone who experienced depression. That is a fair argument. No one on this board is implying they can diagnose or discredit someone’s mental health.

edit: in the end this is gone back and forth longer than i intended. I think your metaphor was meant as a quick joke of a response and I meant mine as the same. I understand your point about medically qualified doctors and what they go through to be able diagnose and help those who need it, and it’s not fair for people behind a keyboard to diagnose or disqualify someone’s mental health because they don’t have the ability to do it correctly. But people do have a right to an opinion (no matter how wrong or right they are) based on experience.

 

[Turgenev]

You generally need a qualification if you want to diagnose or treat a mental health condition. But if you just want to speculate about whether a players mental robustness impacts their ability to contribute to your favourite basketball team you do not need a qualification.

 

[serbiangoat]

I'm not sure I agree, or really understand, this train of thought here.

There are many many ways to grow as a basketball player even if you don't have high basketball IQ. All you need is a direction and someone nudging you along the way to it. Who would've wanted Buddy Hield in an open draft if you must have high bball IQ?

How has building around dumb players like Reke/Cousins/Buddy/Fox worked out for the Kings? I'm not saying there's no place in the NBA for them I'm saying building around low IQ players and giving them massive deals is why the Kings are where they are currently. The young core the Kings have is so crap because it's literally with the exception of one guy a dumb group. Pretending this team has winning talent is getting beyond parody at this point.

 

[kb02]

I never said it did. And I don't need to be qualified to do so, as his own mental health experts have been talking with the team and his own representation said that's the problem. Are you calling them liars?

But for those downplaying the potential "mental health" issues, you can't ignore this or assume it's "just a negotiation tactic". He's painting himself into a corner that's going to be hard to get out of, especially is he is just faking the whole thing so he doesn't have to play. Again, is that what you really are looking for in a max contract-type guy? See the articles below.

Report: Rich Paul says 76ers are taking a toll on Ben Simmons mental health - Sports Illustrated



Philadelphia 76ers guard Ben Simmons deserves your empathy for his mental health struggles (inquirer.com)



Rich Paul is creating the Ben Simmons noise he claims is hurting his client | PhillyVoice



So, which is it? Do you believe him or are you saying he is lying? That's the same question his representation is asking.

But also, it seems like every other team reads it the same way the Kings do - he isn't "all that and a bag of chips" as some keep suggesting. He's a very good player, but this situation isn't helping him at all. Hence the reason the unreasonable requests for trade have let this linger for as long as it has. He isn't worth what is being asked for him.

As I’ve said a few times, this is a Max Pain situation. Embid is in his prime, but how many playoff games have the 76ers lost due to Simmons’ holdout? How much salary has Simmons lost? Neither side is near their Max Pain point.

The trade likely occurs at this year’s deadline though the real, real Max Pain point is this off-season if the 76ers fail to advance in the playoffs and Morey has failed to get assets for Simmons. And this may be surprising for Kings fans, who start celebrating when the Kings near a .500 record, but the 76ers don’t care about regular season wins. They care about winning championships during Embid’s prime.

As for your citations, I don’t see a diagnosis from a medical professional.

 

[Letsgokings13]

you said that your experience with mental health is sufficient for you to form an opinion on the matter. It might be enough to have a opinion. But probably not one that would carry as much weight as an actual mental health professional.
I’m not quite sure why you’re arguing this basic point which boils down to: lay person opinions are less valuable than expert opinions when it comes to health care matters.

Sometimes

 

[Warhawk]

you said that your experience with mental health is sufficient for you to form an opinion on the matter. It might be enough to have a opinion. But probably not one that would carry as much weight as an actual mental health professional.
I’m not quite sure why you’re arguing this basic point which boils down to: lay person opinions are less valuable than expert opinions when it comes to health care matters.

Um, what?

 

[Warhawk]

As I’ve said a few times, this is a Max Pain situation. Embid is in his prime, but how many playoff games have the 76ers lost due to Simmons’ holdout? How much salary has Simmons lost? Neither side is near their Max Pain point.

The trade likely occurs at this year’s deadline though the real, real Max Pain point is this off-season if the 76ers fail to advance in the playoffs and Morey has failed to get assets for Simmons. And this may be surprising for Kings fans, who start celebrating when the Kings near a .500 record, but the 76ers don’t care about regular season wins. They care about winning championships during Embid’s prime.

As for your citations, I don’t see a diagnosis from a medical professional.

That's one of the problems; there doesn't seem to be one from anyone (that we know of). But everyone is claiming that it exists.

So back to my previous question that you still haven't answered: Do you believe Simmons or are you saying he is lying? That's the question his representation is asking.

 

[Livinthedream]

You generally need a qualification if you want to diagnose or treat a mental health condition. But if you just want to speculate about whether a players mental robustness impacts their ability to contribute to your favourite basketball team you do not need a qualification.

Exactly. Following their argument to it's logical conclusion, no one in this forum should be giving our opinions on what the kings players, coaches and organization should be doing.

 

[kb02]

That's one of the problems; there doesn't seem to be one from anyone (that we know of). But everyone is claiming that it exists.

So back to my previous question that you still haven't answered: Do you believe Simmons or are you saying he is lying? That's the question his representation is asking.

I believe the Kings have an opportunity to acquire a multi-position, two-way, 6’10, 25 year old, three time all star, who has also been named to the All NBA Defensive team.

I also believe this is a Max Pain situation. The facts are, the 76ers haven’t lost a playoff game yet due to Simmons’ absence and Simmons has lost more than $500k in salary, They are no where near Max Pain territory.

I have not seen a medical diagnosis from a psychiatrist, so I’m not qualified to judge whether there is an issue, the severity of whatever the issue may be, and whether the issue is permanent or temporary.

 

[itzcoatl]

Um, what?

I originally responded to post #473, from a different poster. Then you responded to my reply which totally threw me off. So my bad. I wasn’t responding to you.

 

[Warhawk]

I originally responded to post #473, from a different poster. Then you responded to my reply which totally threw me off. So my bad. I wasn’t responding to you.

No worries. I thought maybe I didn't word something well that was getting misinterpreted.

 

[Warhawk]

I believe the Kings have an opportunity to acquire a multi-position, two-way, 6’10, 25 year old, three time all star, who has also been named to the All NBA Defensive team.

I also believe this is a Max Pain situation. The facts are, the 76ers haven’t lost a playoff game yet due to Simmons’ absence and Simmons has lost more than $500k in salary, They are no where near Max Pain territory.

I have not seen a medical diagnosis from a psychiatrist, so I’m not qualified to judge whether there is an issue, the severity of whatever the issue may be, and whether the issue is permanent or temporary.

Ah, so your answer is it doesn't matter if Simmons will never suit up to play basketball again or not, we should just trade away our (likely) best bargaining chip on a whim, because - one-time "All-Star". Thanks for clearing that up.

Personally, I need more clarification on exactly what is going on with Simmons before I'd do that. As a very recent Kings-related example, Cousins and his injury status immediately after his "All-Star recognition" are holding on line 1. Now imagine that on a 4 year remaining max-type contract where Simmons still "can't" play, not because of injury, but just because he says so.

 

[kb02]

Ah, so your answer is it doesn't matter if Simmons will never suit up to play basketball again or not, we should just trade away our (likely) best bargaining chip on a whim, because - one-time "All-Star". Thanks for clearing that up.

Personally, I need more clarification on exactly what is going on with Simmons before I'd do that. As a very recent Kings-related example, Cousins and his injury status immediately after his "All-Star recognition" are holding on line 1. Now imagine that on a 4 year remaining max-type contract where Simmons still "can't" play, not because of injury, but just because he says so.

The Kings best asset is Hali. Both in talent and salary.

As for the medical stuff, I’m not qualified to have an opinion. And won’t until I see a medical diagnosis. Have you seen one?

 

[Warhawk]

The Kings best asset is Hali. Both in talent and salary.

As for the medical stuff, I’m not qualified to have an opinion. And won’t until I see a medical diagnosis. Have you seen one?

We aren't trading Hali unless it is a true blockbuster, I think (Simmons alone wouldn't qualify for me). Hali outperforms his rookie salary and is an integral part of this team when it is playing well - we aren't trading him unless someone better than Simmons is coming back.

You know as well as I as far as performance and salary going out Fox makes the most sense to bring back a highly-paid player like Simmons (Buddy and Barnes are paid less and generally don't produce as well). We really can't do it easily with those making much less.

Again, you are ignoring the question posed. We obviously haven't seen a medical report. That is one of the problems; you are completely blind to the elephant in the room in bringing Simmons over in a trade.

You don't have to be "qualified" to have a fan's opinion on implied risk (and you are making such an implied "qualified opinion" already based on your insistence we should trade for him - you've made that "evaluation" and come to a strongly-held opinion/decision). Based on the statements from Simmons' team that he has mental health issues, his insistence that he "can't" play, his refusal to fully cooperate with the 76ers in working to diagnose and treat any problems they insist are there, and his known meltdown in the playoffs (among other issues), the risk-reward isn't there for such a highly-paid player we'd be on the hook with for several years. Just look at it logically instead of with stars in your eyes for "OMG, he's been an all-star!!!".

 

[kb02]

We aren't trading Hali unless it is a true blockbuster, I think (Simmons alone wouldn't qualify for me). Hali outperforms his rookie salary and is an integral part of this team when it is playing well - we aren't trading him unless someone better than Simmons is coming back.

You know as well as I as far as performance and salary going out Fox makes the most sense to bring back a highly-paid player like Simmons (Buddy and Barnes are paid less and generally don't produce as well). We really can't do it easily with those making much less.

Again, you are ignoring the question posed. We obviously haven't seen a medical report. That is one of the problems; you are completely blind to the elephant in the room in bringing Simmons over in a trade.

You don't have to be "qualified" to have a fan's opinion on implied risk (and you are making such an implied "qualified opinion" already based on your insistence we should trade for him - you've made that "evaluation" and come to a strongly-held opinion/decision). Based on the statements from Simmons' team that he has mental health issues, his insistence that he "can't" play, his refusal to fully cooperate with the 76ers in working to diagnose and treat any problems they insist are there, and his known meltdown in the playoffs (among other issues), the risk-reward isn't there for such a highly-paid player we'd be on the hook with for several years. Just look at it logically instead of with stars in your eyes for "OMG, he's been an all-star!!!".

My opinions are based off production while yours is based off of speculation. The expected return off of production is greater than the expected return off of speculation.

 

[ESP47]

This is why the Memphis rebuild is going to be so successful. They had very little draft capital investment around Brooks, Bane, Melton, Clarke and they went and got 2 really undervalued young role players (Anderson/Tyus) that just compliment their franchise cornerstone players. The Kings have actually had reasonably strong cornerstones over the last decade (Reke, Boogie, IT2, Fox), but quite possibly have been the worst franchise in the league at continuing to build out young ascending talent around them. It's like they get a few exciting young players and just try to throw overpriced veterans around them and be "done" with developing talent.

I think that's why I appreciate Monte's approach so far because he's clearly looking to build out that secondary talent. For the first time in over a decade, we're investing heavily in younger potential upside. Metu and Jones especially are showing to be capable bench bigs, Hali a cornerstone piece and Mitchell showing starter upside. Really Woodard is the only "Monte" guy from his developmental system that hasn't shown he can be an NBA player down the line yet.

Yep and I clearly remember both of us advocating for the Kings to sign Anderson and Tyus. Both players signed contracts at less than $10mil a year.

 

[Turgenev]

My opinions are based off production while yours is based off of speculation. The expected return off of production is greater than the expected return off of speculation.

Ben Simmons is not playing. His team has attributed this to his mental health. This is objective, not speculative.

 

[Warhawk]

My opinions are based off production while yours is based off of speculation. The expected return off of production is greater than the expected return off of speculation.

Except, it isn't based on speculation. It's based on his not playing at all and his self-reported mental health issues that prevent him from playing. He's saying he can't play. Not won't, can't. That is straight from the horse's mouth. Where, exactly, is the speculation?

His production is exactly zero right now. How is that production return greater than any risk? It isn't. Until he shows he can consistently play at a high level, his contract isn't worth squat. That's where the speculation lies - that his most recent performance is an aberration and that it will magically return to some previous level after dealing with whatever mental health issues are present.

 

[kb02]

Except, it isn't based on speculation. It's based on his not playing at all and his self-reported mental health issues that prevent him from playing. He's saying he can't play. Not won't, can't. That is straight from the horse's mouth. Where, exactly, is the speculation?

His production is exactly zero right now. How is that production return greater than any risk? It isn't. Until he shows he can consistently play at a high level, his contract isn't worth squat. That's where the speculation lies - that his most recent performance is an aberration and that it will magically return to some previous level after dealing with whatever mental health issues are present.

You have no medical diagnosis, yet you jump to the most extreme conclusion. The implied volatility for your conclusion to be true is 5x the implied volatility for him repeating his baseline production.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

You have no medical diagnosis, yet you jump to the most extreme conclusion.

Yeah, we definitely should not jump to conclusions based on what both parties actually are saying. Since I am not a medical doctor and I have not personally examined Richaun Holmes, I must not only assume that his being shut down for health and safety protocols does not imply that he has been exposed to or tested positive for COVID, and I must also not assume that he had a severe eye laceration that resulted in him missing several games over the last few weeks. My default assumption until I become a credited medical professional and personally examine Holmes should be that the injury reports are falsified and Holmes simply does not want to play.