Bibby playing well, though Kings aren't

[playmaker0017]

Overall, you're right, this thread isn't about bashing. However, I think most of us would agree that there are much bigger problems right now that Bibby's shortcomings, that he's been the Kings most productive player this year.

I don't think that there are bigger issues than Bibby's shortcomings, right now.

Why?

Because I think most of Bibby's shortcomings can be overcome with effort. I don't think he's "broken" or "problematic". I think everything I say about him can be changed... and that's what's so aggrevating.

For instance, with Reef, his problem is that he's not aggressive. It drives me up a wall. It CAN and SHOULD be changed. It's a mindset and can be changed tonight (well, maybe not ... I'd prefer him not break his jaw again ... ).

Bibby's biggest deficiency is defensive intensity. He doesn't need to play "Artest level defense" ... he just needs to make an effort to shrug a pick and stay with his man. I KNOW he can do it. He could do it tonight, with a change of mind.

However, I would consider calling Bibby an "average player" to be borderline bashing and extremely insulting given how he has performed for this franchise.

He's average, to me ... not because of talent. On talent - he's borderline annual all-star.

But, you can't play on one end of the court. He's an excellent shooter (when he's not forced to take so many shots). He's a decent distributor (or can be). But, if you only play on one side of the court ... you are only half the player you can be.

 

[playmaker0017]

Iverson's is also low.

Iverson hit his first ever game winning shot last year.

But you wouldn't want Webber taking all the shots in crunch time would you? Besides Wade, all the guys that get the ball at the end shoot low percentage. I see this as no knock to Bibby...

It's because they are volume shooters for the most part.

But no ... there is no question ... for the final shot of the game, I would look nowhere else than Bibby on this team.

Come to think of it ... in Bibby's defense, one SHOULD look at eFG% in this situation, which adjust for 3 point FG attempts. Then Bibby jumps to 45%. Food for thought.

 

[nbrans]

Come to think of it ... in Bibby's defense, one SHOULD look at eFG% in this situation, which adjust for 3 point FG attempts. Then Bibby jumps to 45%. Food for thought.

It doesn't really make a difference unless you're trying to compare perimeter players to post players. Just about every player receives a similar boost.

 

[playmaker0017]

It doesn't really make a difference unless you're trying to compare perimeter players to post players. Just about every player receives a similar boost.

Look, man, I'm trying to provide some positives and you gots to go out and ruin em. Thanks, man, thanks.

 

[Team Dime]

I don't think that there are bigger issues than Bibby's shortcomings, right now.

Why?

Because I think most of Bibby's shortcomings can be overcome with effort. I don't think he's "broken" or "problematic". I think everything I say about him can be changed... and that's what's so aggrevating.

For instance, with Reef, his problem is that he's not aggressive. It drives me up a wall. It CAN and SHOULD be changed. It's a mindset and can be changed tonight (well, maybe not ... I'd prefer him not break his jaw again ... ).

Bibby's biggest deficiency is defensive intensity. He doesn't need to play "Artest level defense" ... he just needs to make an effort to shrug a pick and stay with his man. I KNOW he can do it. He could do it tonight, with a change of mind.



He's average, to me ... not because of talent. On talent - he's borderline annual all-star.

But, you can't play on one end of the court. He's an excellent shooter (when he's not forced to take so many shots). He's a decent distributor (or can be). But, if you only play on one side of the court ... you are only half the player you can be.

I agree that Bibby's defense is bad. Sometimes I see him put forth the effort, but not as much other times, but overall he's a slow footed defender. I think we'll see a general improvement just from playing with Artest.

However, I don't buy your argument. Lots of players would be "average players" for only being good offensively by your logic. Some on that list would include Larry Legend (I'm not comparing him to Bibby, just saying he played matador D and often let his guy light him up), Steve Nash, Dirk, and Gilbert Arenas. I don't think anyone would call any of those guys average players, but the truth is that they mostly are known for getting it done on one end of the court; and it's definately not the defensive end.

 

[venom_7]

Here are the per48 minute shot attempts in "clutch" play on 82games.com, along with FG% (ranked according to shot attempts):

Bibby: 26.7, .362%
Bonzi: 18.3, .583%
Reef: 14.0, .571%
Brad: 13.1, .217%
Peja: 11.2, .083% (unreal)
Kenny: 10.8, .857%
Martin: 4.6, .667%
Garcia: 4.0, .333%

So yes, there might be something to Bibby taking so many shots in crunch time.

Now, are Bibby's numbers representative of his career? Here are his clutch field goal numbers:

2005-2006: .362%
2004-2005: .416%
2003-2004: .371%
2002-2003: .470%

And, for comparison, here's a spattering of other players' percentages for the 2005-2006 season:

Webber: 25.5, .453%
Iverson: 25.3, .359%
Nash: 24.0, .414%
Billups: 26.5, .375%
Parker: 25.4, .369%
Wade: 28.3, .473%
Horry: 8.5, .500%
Lebron: 25.6, .386%
Duncan: 21.1, .343%
Dirk: 30.6, .403%
Carmelo: 20.1, .426%
Allen: 33.0, .397%
Arenas: 28.6, .338%
Marbury: 29.3, .417%
Kobe: 35.6, .381%

Judging from these numbers, Bibby's don't exactly stand out, but they're not terrible either. Bonzi and Reef's numbers, on the other hand, are really something when you look at other players around the league.

And, last but not least, here are Artest's numbers with the Pacers:

2005-2006: 11.2, .250%
2004-2005: 18.6, .455%
2003-2004: 16.8, .481%
2002-2003: 17.5, .340%

now do these numbers come from only close games (lost by ten or less) or all games with 5 minutes left?

 

[nbrans]

now do these numbers come from only close games (lost by ten or less) or all games with 5 minutes left?

Here's what they say: "(4th quarter or overtime, less than 5 minutes left,
neither team ahead by more than 5 points)"

82games.com

 

[bcfy]

and let's not forget the turnovers in the last 5 minutes....I am sure you have higher turnover rate if you want to post up SAR in the low post than having Bibby does his things..

 

[Team Dime]

Bibby looked pretty good to me tonight. He distributed the ball very nicely in the first half, had some beautiful looks to K9 and Brad. It's basic common sense to let the guy with the hot hand take the most shots, which Bibby clearly had. 42 points, 50% shooting, clutch shot after clutch shot.

Can you say All Star???

He IS a top 5 point guard in this league, I don't care what anyone says. He had one bad game on the road trip (the one I went to unfortunately, but I'm not even holding that against him despite paying $180 for 2 tickets).

 

[VF21]

Bibby isn't perfect but I'm sure very glad we have him.

Yes, he has weaknesses but he also has ice water in his veins and we certainly need that. A team is comprised of players whose strengths and weaknesses compliment each other. I'm beginning to buy into the Petrie vision again, but I do see another move on the horizon - not with Bibby, however. I think/hope/pray it will address whomever is supposed to come off the bench and give Mike a breather. That is a major problem IMHO.

 

[bcfy]

laugh to me if you want to, but I see Bibby developing himself into something huge, that is, a SUPERSTAR.....again laugh if you want to, you can say he only did that few times, and it won't make him a superstar.....you are right, that's why i say he is "developing" to be a superstar..

Now why would i say that? Because he has score 40+ points so many times lately. What? you are laughing? You will be surprise to see how many the so called "good players" never get pass the 40 point mark..What? you say he takes too many shots to score 40+ points? Hell, who doesn't need 25+ shot attempts to score 40 in this league?

What really distinguish a superstar from normal players? That, to me, is the ability to step up, carry your team all by yourself and score 40+ points "occasionally"(come on u can't do it night in and night out or u see someone average 40 points per game), while at other times when you don't score, you find some other ways to help your team get a W....Now Bibby really shows that he can do the first part, and although he is not doing the 2nd part often, but as many people pointed out already, he used to be a good playmaker who could make his teammate better before he came to the Kings...he has the potential and talent to do that in my opinion.

What? Someone call this guy an "average" player? Give me a break...this guy almost made the all-star team last year, and this year he is even better...you call him an "average" player?

And to "playmaker":
Yes I understand you love SAR, and I like him and think he deserves to take more shots too....but seriously, he can never be "the-man"...he had given chance to do it in Vancouver and Atlanta..but he failed to do so...SAR is a good solid player, he can average 20 points and 9 rebound per game...but really, that's it...I have seen him play a lot in Vancouver and Atlanta, he could give you 18-24 points, 8-10 rebounds night in and night out, but I rarely saw him score more than 30 points and grab 12+ rebounds...which means, when you really need him to step up more than usual and be "the man", he still give you the nice looking 20 points and 9 rebounds........that's why you never seen him being considered as an all-star...

I am not saying Bibby is a superstar, but at least he is trying to develop to be one...and you never know what will happen next...let's give him some hope, and let's give our Kings some hope before you say "screw it, Bibby sucks".

 

[playmaker0017]

and let's not forget the turnovers in the last 5 minutes....I am sure you have higher turnover rate if you want to post up SAR in the low post than having Bibby does his things..

1 TO (Reef) compared to 6 TOs (Bibby) per 48min.

 

[playmaker0017]

Yes I understand you love SAR, and I like him and think he deserves to take more shots too....but seriously, he can never be "the-man"...he had given chance to do it in Vancouver and Atlanta..but he failed to do so...

He's giving you exactly what Bibby is giving you - except Reef had debatably less talent around him.

So, I fail to see what not winning on scrub teams means?

I saw Bibby lose, at the same age as Shareef, in Vancouver with a scrub team. I watching Bibby lose now with an average team. I've seen Reef lose with a scrub team in Vancouver and with a semi-scrub team in Atlanta.

The difference? Reef took 15 shots to score 20+ PPG. When he did take 17, he scored almost 24 ... in his third year.

SAR is a good solid player, he can average 20 points and 9 rebound per game...but really, that's it...

Not to mention 3 assists.

While Bibby can get 20, 4, 5.

I just don't see where this is going. Per shot production is higher with Reef. Reef plays defense. Win% is about even when either is "the man" ... although I never considered either situation a "the man" situation for Reef. He was always an option 1a or option 1b... never a sole option 1. And that's what I think he needs to be here. Option 1b or Option 1A.

that's why you never seen him being considered as an all-star...

Reef = 1 Allstar Appearance. How many does Bibby have?

let's give our Kings some hope before you say "screw it, Bibby sucks".

I haven't said that. I said I dislike the way Bibby plays basketball. I dislike early shots with no time taken in the shot clock. I dislike shots taken so early that players aren't under the basket. I dislike one player monopolizing the ball only to force his shot (it takes the other players out of the game).

When Bibby is on the floor running PG ... it seems like there is only one other player out there ... Brad Miller. They run a two man isolation game, and they ignore the rest of the squad for the most part.

I also dislike his lack of effort on defense. He may be a little slowfooted, but his issue isn't being slow ... it's actually exerting effort. You can't create the space on offense that Bibby can and not be able to at least stay even with your man a majority of the time. That's lack of heart and lack of hustle on defense. Nothing more, nothing less (at least in my opinion).

Like I've said - is Reef the savior? No, I don't think so. But, I feel the same way about Bibby ... AND Artest.

We need to play as ONE unit. We need to take higher percentage, smarter shots. Less long shots to help us try to get a few offensive rebounds.

 

[thesanityannex]

When Bibby is on the floor running PG ... it seems like there is only one other player out there ... Brad Miller. They run a two man isolation game, and they ignore the rest of the squad for the most part.
.

I believe this is simply because Bibby has not learned to trust any of these new guys and Miller is simply his crutch. Give it time before you jump all over Bibby.

 

[bcfy]

The thing i don't really get is, Bibby shows that he can carry our offense...we have been averaging 102+ points the last few weeks...and now why people cry for seeing him taking too many shots? Why people cry for our offense has been destoryed by Bibby? This is totally strange.

Ok, Bibby attempt 17 or more shots in 19 games so far this season...only 7 of them were during the time before SAR and Wells got injured(in case you want to know: 9/20 on Nov 6th, 8/17 on Nov 18th, 11/23 on Nov 21st, 10/21 on Nov 25th, 8/19 on Nov 30th, 9/18 on Dec 8th, 9/20 on Dec 17th..seems to me he took more shots than usual because the shots were falling) ...the rest are when we missed either 1 or 2 or all of SAR, Wells and Peja...i find it a lot more problematic if Bibby refused to step up and take more shots during such hard period....yes, we are talking about the Bibby who has been trying to carry us on his shoulder with a not even close to 70% SAR, an injuried Wells, a non-productive peja, a new comer Artest..

why not continue this topic after we have all SAR, Wells and Artest healthy and really get together as a team? But for now, we need him to continue shooting the ball to at least give us a chance to win (yea not even a 40+ pts night can gurantee us a W now)

 

[sdballer]

I think its very difficult to claim Bibby is helping this team win. While I agree that he is an excellent shooter and a person totally willing to take (and often make) the big shot, his downside is causing major problems for this team.

In my humble opinion, the superstars and allstars (let alone the team leaders) of this league are the people with the most complete games that contribute to their team winning ballgames. On both sides of the court, Bibby's weaknesses prevent him from being included in this category.

On offense, Bibby can shoot you into games and he can also shoot you out. It isn't enough to point to the games he puts up 30 or 40. To me, it;s more about what he does on offense besides that, especially when his shot isn't falling. He is a step slow and does not take the ball to the hoop with any effective consistency. He is an average passer at best (compounded by his predictability-two man pick and pop game with Miller). He does a very poor job of getting teammates involved (especially for a high scoring offense). Let's not forget that what made the Kings (and any great offense) effective is the ability to move the ball and spread the floor. Bibby, as a pointguard, does not do this.

His defense is even worse. He appears totally disinterested, lost and incapable of playing one-on-one or team defense. If you don't believe me, watch him exclusively on D. Even if it is not his man that scores, there are simply far too many times where his inability to stay in front of his man, rotate, or help results in points for the other team.

Does all of this mean its his fault the team is losing. Of course not. This is not a team built in the mold of the old kings. The bench is weaker (though totally underutilized), the offense mismanaged (Shareef/Bonzi/Ron/etc. are very different players that don't fit the same way as their counterparts), the defense has too many holes. So he isn't THE problem, but he's a major piece. Just my two cents.

 

[PFFFT!!]

Im not sold on Bibby. Hes playing more like a SG now, taking it upon himself to score because there is hardly any other options anymore. Hes loggin on a lot of minutes and if memory/history serves me right, right around playoff time is when bad things happen *knock on wood*.

 

[VF21]

So now Bibby is going to be the scapegoat/the target?

This is just sad...

 

[nbrans]

So now Bibby is going to be the scapegoat/the target?

This is just sad...

Ok, this is getting crazy. No one is even getting close to approaching the ballpark of the harshness that has been directed to other players on the team and former members of the team. No one is suggesting, as someone else on this very thread, that Bibby "grow a pair" or anything like disrespectful or harsh like that. Just because people aren't sold on Bibby doesn't mean he's being used a scapegoat or that it's sad or whatever else. If you like Bibby, stick up for him. Otherwise, there are plenty of reasons to be less than completely enamored of him, and the people that point that out shouldn't be called "scapegoaters" or whatever else.

 

[VF21]

Whatever...

I just fail to see the need for some new members to start off by immediately finding ways to rag on one of our players.

Sorry. I guess I would just like people to get back to being fans of the team first, especially right now when something as potentially earth-shattering as the Artest trade is still so new the ink has barely dried.

These criticisms of Bibby seem somewhat without basis in fact if you consider the current circumstances. I do think he's being used as a scapegoat and I'm sad that some aren't willing to see how the new team shakes out before deciding Bibby is the problem.

why not continue this topic after we have all SAR, Wells and Artest healthy and really get together as a team?

That is a valid point, IMHO. Let's see how it shakes out before making so many judgments. That's all I'm saying...

 

[sdballer]

Not really sure what length of time posting on a message board has to do with being a kings fan or possessing an understanding of basketball, but I thought I would respond. I have visited this board for some time and there seems to be a group of veterans that shout down any criticism of the team. Granted, the "Bibby sucks and is the worst player in the nba" posters probably deserve some harshness, but I think some of you need to relax a little. Heated discussions about a team we all follow and have for some time is a good thing.

In your message, you seemed to suggest that supporting the team and pointing out failings in a player or system were mutually exclusive concepts, when you can be both a fan and someone with concerns about the way the team is playing.

As to your argument that the current situation prevents holding players accountable for their performance, I would question that. As I stated, Bibby is not THE reason the Kings are losing, but neither are the injuries or new players THE reasons. All of the distractions aside, the on-court performance and more importantly effort is not there. Many great teams and players have distractions but they leave that and their hearts on the court every time they play. It's what seperates the good ones from the great. Bibby and this current team is "good" (distractions taken into consideration) but far from great.

Maybe things will change, but I hope we will all be able to have lively discussions until that day. Thanks- The Newbie

 

[VF21]

sdballer - Granted, the effort is not there right now but our current roster has yet to take the court healthy and with a couple of practices under their belt.

I am well aware of the purposes of message boards. I'm also well aware of the tendency of some newcomers to feel they have to come out strong out of the gate to get noticed... And I'm also aware that I sometimes get defensive about this team and the players.

If you have been lurking on this board, I cannot imagine how you have come to the conclusion that some of us "shout down any criticism" of the team.

Bottom line is we do agree on one thing. Lively discussions are always welcome.

As a rule, we keep our comments about the topics and not about each other. I breached that "rule" and, for that, I should probably apologize. So, I do...

On the other hand, you should realize you're the new kid on the block. A great number of us have been here a long time (don't be fooled by the large number of people with Sept. 2004 as their join date - board restart date after a catastrophic server problem). We're a really dedicated group of folks with some long-standing discussions about various things.

All I said was that I thought some new members were taking unfair potshots at Bibby, especially considering the circumstances the team is now in. I never said players weren't accountable for their performance. Certainly they're accountable. But accountable to whom? Someone with 1 post on the board doesn't have the credibility of someone who has been around, been active in numerous discussions, etc.

Again, if I came across too strongly, I do sincerely apologize. '

Welcome.

I love forward to more debates.

 

[DavisAggie]

Not really sure what length of time posting on a message board has to do with being a kings fan or possessing an understanding of basketball, but I thought I would respond. I have visited this board for some time and there seems to be a group of veterans that shout down any criticism of the team. Granted, the "Bibby sucks and is the worst player in the nba" posters probably deserve some harshness, but I think some of you need to relax a little. Heated discussions about a team we all follow and have for some time is a good thing.

GREAT statement sdballer. I've read this board for a couple years, then finally "joined". I read the board everyday but post little. I have a lot to say too, but in fear of getting banned I keep most of my thoughts to myself. I respect an "outsiders" view, so enjoy the board and thanks for your input.

 

[VF21]

One more thing?

Lively discussions are part and parcel of this board. HEATED discussions, on the other hand, are not. There is a subtle but distinct difference.

Now let's get back to the discussion at hand.

Thank you.

 

[bcfy]

Ok, this is getting crazy. No one is even getting close to approaching the ballpark of the harshness that has been directed to other players on the team and former members of the team. No one is suggesting, as someone else on this very thread, that Bibby "grow a pair" or anything like disrespectful or harsh like that. Just because people aren't sold on Bibby doesn't mean he's being used a scapegoat or that it's sad or whatever else. If you like Bibby, stick up for him. Otherwise, there are plenty of reasons to be less than completely enamored of him, and the people that point that out shouldn't be called "scapegoaters" or whatever else.

But I do see bibby used as a scapegoat..

we have guys saying "Man his 40 points+ games hurt us a lot, now turn yourself to be steve Nash, or back to your old time and get your 15 points 8 assists game in Vancouver""
we have guys saying "Man this guy is just an average player trying to act like a good player, stop hurting our team!"
we even have guys keep suggesting "give the damn ball to SAR and Wells!" despite the fact that one of them is still in the IR, and the other one doesn't seems healthy at all.

Ok now, question yourself, he really isn't the scapegoat? Years ago we had Webber in the IR, and our team keep winning..then when Webber was back, we somehow started to lose... this year (and actually last year) Peja really is playing below his level.....both man are gone, and now the target is Bibby? I mean, it is understandalbe in the case of Webber and Peja...but come on, Bibby? He is playing his best basketball of his career right now...not that he is playing below his level, nor it is the case that we lose with him in lineup and win with him out of lineup...

So you blame your best player on the floor who is playing his best basketball and you call it not a scapegoat? hmm....

 

[Elektrik]

So now Bibby is going to be the scapegoat/the target?quote]

...I don't think so. At least not by the majority of fans. True, he has some weaknesses but he has far more positives. There is no player in the league that is the perfect player. Havent seen him since MJ, Bird, and Magic. What Mike Bibby does bring is offense...and lots of it and clutch shooting...despite what some of the stats earlier in this thread suggest. He still plays better D than JWill and is a very smart player. He is not afraid to go in the paint and kick it out. I have seen him get hammered repeatedly...yet he still does it. Mike is never going to be lightning quick but he makes up for it with skill and smarts. I will take Mike Bibby over any point guard in the league. Who else on this team is capable of scoring 40 or even 50 points?

 

[sdballer]

I'm not sure that anyone is criticizing Bibby for not being perfect. I know I was just pointing out some of the reasons I think Bibby's play is hurting the team more than helping. I also don't get the comparisons with JWill. Obviously, the Kings got the better end of that deal but that doesn't diminish Bibby's deficiencies. His defense is very bad and I personally don't care if there are 50 other players that are worse because that doesn't help the Kings. And I guess I just don't remember the current Bibby taking the ball to the hole with the regularity you are referring to.

We're obviously all entitled to our opinions, but you would take Bibby over ANY other point guard in the nba? Even based on your listing of his strengths (offense, toughness and clutch play), you would still take him over Billups, Kidd, Wade (kind of a PG), Nash, Iverson and probably a few others when they possess the same skills and more complete games?

I suppose that's why I love sports. Two people can watch the same game and see it totally differently. Gotta love the grey.