Ben, Ben, Ben... (split from Kobe game thread)
- Thread starter FaStRmAn
- Start date
Where does this come from? This is the best game he's had all season and he was on the bench when we lost the lead.
theclash4u5
Starter
He looked great in the 1st Q and then just disappeared after he missed a few open 3s
Tetsujin
The Game Thread Dude
Not really sure how you watch this game and come up with that as the big conclusion...
I'm pretty sure he came to that conclusion before the
FaStRmAn
Starter
His confidence is shot.... He is a lot like Quincy Douby... practice cant miss a shot, but in a game he aint got..
FaStRmAn
Starter
Quite simple. He is not an NBA Caliber Guard. He is unable to handle simple defensive rotations. He is always the one lost in space as the other team hits the wide open 3. He shoots the lights out in practice, but gets in the game and disappears like Michigan J. Frog. He is not developing and this is his 3rd season. He isnt giving any indication that he will develop. It's not just this game, its his entire NBA career. He is a B U S T.
The front office needs to be looking for a starting 2 guard so that we can bring Belinelli off the bench. A guard that can defend his position and make the occasional open shot. This will in turn open things up for Cuz down low and when they rotate the ball give other players open shots.
Livinthedream
All-Star
Did Ben steal your girl?
I mean, he had a really good night and this is when you choose to go off on him.
FaStRmAn
Starter
LOL no Ben did not steal my girl. But he would not start or even come off the bench on any other team. He is a BUST. I have watched every single game he has played. There is no improvement. I see rookies outplaying and out defending him. Whatever confidence he may have once had is gone. I'm not going on one game analysis. He's just not very good and we need a better 2 guard. And if we want to have a chance at the playoffs we need to trade for a good 2 guard.
Livinthedream
All-Star
If you watch every game and focus on all the things a player can't do, you will always find something to complain about. No matter who the player is. You also start to get confirmation bias.
I'll give you two things Ben has done the last 2 games that he didn't do his first year. He has rebounded the ball and taken it up the court to initiate the offense (without turning it over). He couldn't have done this in the past because he was so week with his handles. He has also run around screens and "read and reacted" to the situation. If the defender went over the top of the screen, he cut to the basket. If the defender went around, he popped out. He was eating the Lakers alive with this. Ben's shooting percentage is up every year. His ppg is down this year because his minutes are significantly less.
So there is your improvement, with minimal analysis.
The only thing I'll say about the defense is the team plays better in the 1st and 3rd quarters when Ben is in the game. We give away leads and blow games in the 4th, when Ben plays the least. Not coincendentally, the 4th is when our opponents are playing their starting guards, and we are playing our backups.
FaStRmAn
Starter
The opposite is also true. If all you focus on is trying to prove the hypothesis that a player is getting better, you will mitigate the mistakes and maximize the few positives as growth.
So after 2 1/3rd years of playing professional basket ball, the only improvements you can point to are basic basket ball skills like dribbling upcourt and getting thru screens?
This is because his play has not warranted minutes. And its not like the others who replace him are lighting the world on fire...
Most NBA teams make a run in the 4th when they are behind. I dont believe that Ben not playing is contributing to that per se.
It can be argued back and forth endlessly whether you think Ben is a bust or not. But tell me on what other team in the NBA does he start? Or even get significant minutes? He is inconsistent and if you watch closely, just about every time there is a wide open 3 point shot, it is Ben who is late getting to the shooter.
But lets say I'm wrong. Lets say that Ben is improving over the course of the season. Well, that is what he did last season. Play poorly the first half and then play better in the second half. That is the definition of inconsistent.
I truly hope the FO brings in another 2 guard to compete for the starting position. Someone who plays well a majority of 82 games...
Livinthedream
All-Star
1. I've never been shy about stating when a player isn't doing something well or has something to improve on. So yes, confirmation bias works both ways, but I haven't labeled him or passed judgement on him in an absolute way.
2. I gave two quick examples of improvement just to drive home the point that I could find something he does better without much effort.
3. I never understood the argument about whether someone is an NBA player based on if he can start on another team. There are supposedly 29 better starting SGs in the league and just as many better backups? Yet we haven't been able to find one in the past 3 years? How is that even possible? If this is even true, then it's the organizations fault.
4. If you honestly believe that Ben is the one guy leaving three point shooters open, then you are truly biased. This would mean that not playing Ben would take care of our defensive woes. But that's not really the case.
FaStRmAn
Starter
So again I ask, what other team in the NBA is Ben an immediate starter ? Or even a significant role player? You have skipped around that question deftly, however the question remains. I would hazard a guess and say none. Therefore the next question is why is he starting for or playing for the Kings.
Clearly Ben McLemore is not the ONLY problem with this team. But certainly must be discussed as the trade deadline draws near. You have to fish or cut bait at some point.
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Livinthedream
All-Star
I didn't skip your question. I told you what I thought of it. I'm not about to debate player by player who is better, in which there will never be any full agreement. It is a distraction from the topic and was not the crux of your Ben is a bust argument.
You stated that he hasn't improved, he can't shoot in games, he leaves everyone open on defense and he is not NBA caliber.
My simple statement to you is that someone should have easily beat him out for the position already if that's the case. Now I direct you to last nights game against the Pelicans where Ben didn't play but 7 min., yet we were lit up for a ton of 3s. If it weren't for a heroic effort by Boogie, we would have lost by 30. Belli took Ben's spot and started the second half and came up with a whopping 2 points for the game. Maybe Belli isn't NBA caliber?
If we trade him or bench him because we find something better, that's fine. But your analysis just doesn't hold water. There are other things going on outside of Ben that is causing this team to lose
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FaStRmAn
Starter
I clearly stated "Clearly Ben McLemore is not the ONLY problem with this team." Your stubborn defense of Ben in spite of the facts is duly noted.
Yes, you "clearly" state that, very often, in fact. You "clearly" think that "McLemore is not the ONLY problem" with the team. I'm sure, then, that it's nothing more than a staggering number of coincidences that he just happens to be the only problem that you can be bothered to talk about with any regularity.
KingsFanSince85
All-Star
Ben has the necessary talent and skills to be a really good player. By all accounts, he even works pretty darn hard. IMO, the reason he isn't a really good player is his passive demeanor. He just doesn't appear to have a killer instinct or drive to destroy his competition. He defers far too much and doesn't seem to have a high basketball IQ, especially on the defensive side of the ball. He should be an upper-echelon defender at the very least.
..and this is what separates the men from the boys.
Unfortunately, it's not a skill you can learn. It's mindset. Nobody can help him but himself. Rudy cuts to the basket, Rondo rewards him with an oop. Marco and Omri both work their asses off moving with out the ball, both are rewarded on a regular basis with open looks. Ben needs to pick something and focus all of this energy on that one thing. He needs to start contributing now.
KingsFanGER
Starter
He is still one of the at least average defenders we have.
The problem is, that Karl punishes him for every mistake he makes. Ben and Willie will be pulled from the game after a boneheaded play.
But Marco or Rondo can throw the ball away like high school boys or relax on D and still stay in the game.
Curry plays, because he doesn't make many mistakes and Karl will play the less mistakeprone, more confident player over the bigger, more athletic guy with the higher ceiling.
I personally don't like the way Karl manages Willie and Ben. Our vets make countless of mistakes, but the young guys we desperately need in order to be competetive are hold to higher standards, because our coach doesn't trust them.
The problem is, that Karl punishes him for every mistake he makes. Ben and Willie will be pulled from the game after a boneheaded play.
But Marco or Rondo can throw the ball away like high school boys or relax on D and still stay in the game.
Curry plays, because he doesn't make many mistakes and Karl will play the less mistakeprone, more confident player over the bigger, more athletic guy with the higher ceiling.
I personally don't like the way Karl manages Willie and Ben. Our vets make countless of mistakes, but the young guys we desperately need in order to be competetive are hold to higher standards, because our coach doesn't trust them.
Tetsujin
The Game Thread Dude
Ben McLemore isn't the only problem with the team. He's just problems 1-10 and the rest are Men BcLemore.
J
JoseCousins
Guest
I blame everything on bellinellis horrible curl shot. Yes he can make a few in a row when he is hot but it's usually bricksville. I'll take a no confidence Ben set shot over that wild crap anyday
ockingsfan
Starter
If Ben could play like tonight, every night, we would have our 3 and D shooting guard.
If Ben can play like this every night, the kings will be challenging for the #6-7 seed in the playoffs.
If Ben can play like this every night, the kings will be challenging for the #6-7 seed in the playoffs.
Ben's away/home splits
Away
FG% 49.6
3pt% 45
Pts 8.2
Home
FG% 43.9
3pt% 32.7
Pts 6.9
Advanced stats like ortg and drtg are worse on the road, but the team is collectively worse on the road. He does get a higher % of assisted baskets on the road.
I expected I would find something interesting if I looked at 1st quarter differences away and home, and I did.
First Quarter shooting on the road
FG 57.5
% 3pt 50
Pts 3.2
First Quarter Shooting at Home
FG% 50
3pt% 22.2
Pts 2.8
So he starts off shooting better on the road and this carries over into the 3rd quarter. His fourth quarter stats plummet both home and away, but still better on the road. He's shooting 60%+ from 3 on the road in third quarters.
Putting assisted baskets under the same First Quarter microscope, you get Ben having 87% of his baskets assisted on the road and 62.9% of his baskets assisted at home.
Also, a lot of people ask why they don't run the same plays for Ben that they run for Marco. Well you know that little floppy curl around Cousins for that short midrange jumper? Ben is shooting 29% on jumpers that are not 3pt shots. It's not a high percentage shot for Ben as it has been for Marco. McLemore's struggle with the inbetween game is where things break down. He's 29% on non-3 jumpers and 30% on pull up jumpers. That space and moments between the driving layup and the set 3 is where he struggles.
edit:
Additional thought: My prescription for Ben and the team is that Rondo needs to get him more alley oops. Ben has one alley oop dunk all year. As well, Ben needs to cut and teammates need to find him on cuts. This depends on the team running more post offense and less perimeter dribble drive. Ben has only 9 shots on cuts, but he's made all 9.
Basically the prescription is off ball movement. Even in the dribble-drive perimeter concept, he can cut from the 3pt line arc when the ball is on the other wing. Casspi does this once or twice a game for a bucket.
Away
FG% 49.6
3pt% 45
Pts 8.2
Home
FG% 43.9
3pt% 32.7
Pts 6.9
Advanced stats like ortg and drtg are worse on the road, but the team is collectively worse on the road. He does get a higher % of assisted baskets on the road.
I expected I would find something interesting if I looked at 1st quarter differences away and home, and I did.
First Quarter shooting on the road
FG 57.5
% 3pt 50
Pts 3.2
First Quarter Shooting at Home
FG% 50
3pt% 22.2
Pts 2.8
So he starts off shooting better on the road and this carries over into the 3rd quarter. His fourth quarter stats plummet both home and away, but still better on the road. He's shooting 60%+ from 3 on the road in third quarters.
Putting assisted baskets under the same First Quarter microscope, you get Ben having 87% of his baskets assisted on the road and 62.9% of his baskets assisted at home.
Also, a lot of people ask why they don't run the same plays for Ben that they run for Marco. Well you know that little floppy curl around Cousins for that short midrange jumper? Ben is shooting 29% on jumpers that are not 3pt shots. It's not a high percentage shot for Ben as it has been for Marco. McLemore's struggle with the inbetween game is where things break down. He's 29% on non-3 jumpers and 30% on pull up jumpers. That space and moments between the driving layup and the set 3 is where he struggles.
edit:
Additional thought: My prescription for Ben and the team is that Rondo needs to get him more alley oops. Ben has one alley oop dunk all year. As well, Ben needs to cut and teammates need to find him on cuts. This depends on the team running more post offense and less perimeter dribble drive. Ben has only 9 shots on cuts, but he's made all 9.
Basically the prescription is off ball movement. Even in the dribble-drive perimeter concept, he can cut from the 3pt line arc when the ball is on the other wing. Casspi does this once or twice a game for a bucket.
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