HighFlyingMonkey
Starter
Nene scares the hell out of me. Microfracture surgery? A cancerous tumor? 
Kenny Thomas would HAVE to go back in that deal.
Kenny Thomas would HAVE to go back in that deal.
Artest for Nene??
- Thread starter 91sickness
- Start date
Showtime
Starter
Ron is leaving at the end of the year anyway, so why 'pack' his bags a few months sooner just to take on a very long contract for another player who is overpaid?
"He might not work out, but I would be willing to see how it works out." Would you be willing to bet 3 more (possibly 4) years paying the guy 10 mil on that chance? A chance for a guy who's had trouble staying in shape before, and not only that, he has cancer which will limit him this season. Hasn't KT taught Kings fans anything? If things don't work out, overpaid players like that are unmovable. Kenny Thomas should clearly be a reason not to do this trade. I don't see anything good from taking on Nene's contract for the level of player he is.
What, exactly, can Nene bring that Justin doesn't? Nene can't shoot, and can't score the ball, so all he brings is defense and rebounding, which is exactly what Justin does, except Justin is younger and gets paid less.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
A player who is a cancer for a player who has cancer. Interesting gambit.
But I've been touting Nene -- when healthy -- for years now. And -- when healthy -- he has somewhat justified that confidence. The problem being of course that he is never healthy. But he's a talent. A big (really big) young talent in the frontcourt. Which is exactly what we need. Has more skill than I think he;s been allowed to show in Denver too -- still remmeber a couple of years back against us when he got the ball in the open court and dropped a crossover dribble on...forget who it was...out around midcourt to escape the pressure. Reminded me of a certain other PF we used to have around here.
He's basically Kevin's age, so would fit in agewise, and would follow Petrie's normal pattern of being utterly terrified of draft picks, and preferring semi-realized players in trade.
That contract though, even if he's healthy that would K.O. the concept of ever having capspace. Which Geoff again might prefer -- he;s only ever signed the one big free agent (Vlade), and I don't think we've ever been under the cap since.
Numbers as a starter last year:
42games 31.5min 14.2pts (.592 FG%.780 FT%) 8.2reb 1.5ast 1.1stl 1.1blk
But I've been touting Nene -- when healthy -- for years now. And -- when healthy -- he has somewhat justified that confidence. The problem being of course that he is never healthy. But he's a talent. A big (really big) young talent in the frontcourt. Which is exactly what we need. Has more skill than I think he;s been allowed to show in Denver too -- still remmeber a couple of years back against us when he got the ball in the open court and dropped a crossover dribble on...forget who it was...out around midcourt to escape the pressure. Reminded me of a certain other PF we used to have around here.
He's basically Kevin's age, so would fit in agewise, and would follow Petrie's normal pattern of being utterly terrified of draft picks, and preferring semi-realized players in trade.
That contract though, even if he's healthy that would K.O. the concept of ever having capspace. Which Geoff again might prefer -- he;s only ever signed the one big free agent (Vlade), and I don't think we've ever been under the cap since.
Numbers as a starter last year:
42games 31.5min 14.2pts (.592 FG%.780 FT%) 8.2reb 1.5ast 1.1stl 1.1blk
Last edited:
Arby's Roast Beef
Starter
Nene is a high risk, high reward type. But you know what--I'm going to go out on a limb here and approve of this trade, if it ever occurs. Petrie just has this sort of uncanny ability to make something out of nothing, and Nene can end up justifying that. Let's just consider: Nene's stock is at an all time low with his recent problems, and he frankly hasn't played all that much this year; however, if, as many others above me have stated, you watched Nene's rookie year and ensuing years, he was considered a quick, athletic above the rim playing big man with the energy and athleticism to rack up steals and blocks on defense. I mean--think of how many other guys fit that mold; the only one I can think of is Amare Stoudemire, and while I'm not saying by any means he'll be a "Stoudemire", there is a trickle of resemblance between them. Nene also did end up justifying being a high draft pick to a certain extent, but a change of environment seems to be necessary for him now that Martin, Camby, Kleiza, Najera and even Steven Hunter are above him in the depth chart. Another thing about trades is trading at the right time; two years from now, will Nene be "untouchable" again averaging 20 pts, 10 rebounds, 2 steals and 2 blocks for another team? (and he does have that potential). If so, if there's a time to get Nene, it would be now. Long term projections are certainly key, but so is of course relative value at that particular time. Quite frankly, seeing how long Artest has lasted on this team, I seriously have to wonder whether we're even going to get equal return for him; it doesn't look like this will happen, but if something can happen out of nothing, Nene's a very good choice. Yes, I know, I've been rambling on about the positives of this trade, and haven't even gotten to the part that Nene's injuries and recent problems may continue to bite us in the back and hamper us with another long term contract (until 2011) but part of making trades is taking risks. Without risks, you're never going to get anything good in return. And this is a risk at least I, am willing to take.
Last edited:
The whole debate can, IMHO, be boiled down to one comment:
That's the fatal flaw in the whole idea.
That's the fatal flaw in the whole idea.
HighFlyingMonkey
Starter
I'm terrified but Arby's Roast Beef has made some valid comments. At this point, I guess I'd pretty much support any trade that ended the drama. If the player(s) we got in return actually amounted to something down the road, that would be the pretty little pink flower that holds the candle that sits on the icing on the cake.
nbrans
All-Star
Just to be clear, Nene has never had microfracture surgery. He had a torn ACL, which these days usually means a full recovery. He also missed time this year with a bruised knee, and a messed up thumb. (similar to Bibby's) Now cancer. A lot of these things are of the seriously-bad-luck variety rather than something that speaks to a messed up body. Maybe you could say he's injury prone, but he came back completely from the knee surgery and was awesome in the playoffs last year.
I was strongly in favor of trading for Nene a couple years ago, as exactly the kind of low-post presence this team has been lacking. All the injuries though and the huge contract extension put some pretty big warning flags up, which is also the only reason (well that and Denver's persisting payroll problems) why this deal even looks possible. With salary cap room still years away and Nene still only 25, it's not a bad decision for us. Finding a new SF is a lot easier than finding a new PF. I would really insist on getting a draft pick out of that as well. Dumping Kenny Thomas would make the salary issue moot, but also might be a deal breaker for Denver.
I think with this trade it's a rare case of two teams in pretty similar situations -- Denver has had a lot of success without Nene, enough to consider him expendable, but they're still obviously a piece or two away from contending. Particularly because of their shoddy defense. That Artest has owned Carmelo repeatedly is an added bonus for them. Get them on the same team and he never has to play against him again. We've got two players who can take over Artest's spot right away and his contract situation makes him expendable as well (actually, it makes getting something back in return a priority). I can see this maybe happening in the off-season as a sign and trade if it doesn't happen before the trade deadline. It makes a lot of sense for both teams. Well, it does if Denver can get Artest to commit to an extension anyway.
Regarding the injury concerns, it may be that playing alongside two over-sized human pogo sticks (Camby and Martin) has contributed to the chronic injury problems. Most of Nene's injuries are the kind that result from other players bumping into you and falling on your knees all the time. I would think the cancer recovery issue would need to be resolved before the trade happens regardless.
I think with this trade it's a rare case of two teams in pretty similar situations -- Denver has had a lot of success without Nene, enough to consider him expendable, but they're still obviously a piece or two away from contending. Particularly because of their shoddy defense. That Artest has owned Carmelo repeatedly is an added bonus for them. Get them on the same team and he never has to play against him again. We've got two players who can take over Artest's spot right away and his contract situation makes him expendable as well (actually, it makes getting something back in return a priority). I can see this maybe happening in the off-season as a sign and trade if it doesn't happen before the trade deadline. It makes a lot of sense for both teams. Well, it does if Denver can get Artest to commit to an extension anyway.
Regarding the injury concerns, it may be that playing alongside two over-sized human pogo sticks (Camby and Martin) has contributed to the chronic injury problems. Most of Nene's injuries are the kind that result from other players bumping into you and falling on your knees all the time. I would think the cancer recovery issue would need to be resolved before the trade happens regardless.
Glenn
Hall of Famer
Lance Armstrong had a similar tumor and seems to be alright.
Well, yes, but medically that's not the way you make projections.
Can I ask why his stats this year are so bad?
Also, Brick selected some stats that don't match his last year's stats for some reason; perhaps cherry picking starting stats and not taking into account time off the bench.
I'm on the fence but want to deal with "what is." No distortions to make a point.
I'm of the opinion that this Denver stuff is all smokescreen. There's a full 3 weeks left until the trade deadline. And when was the last time you heard Petrie say "where there's sparks (not smoke, indicating to me a higher degree of interest), there's fire". The key factor on trading Ron is not his personality, (if you're interested you already know that about him) it's the ending contract. Zeke wants him in NY but, as of now, thinks he can land him this summer giving up nothing. Petrie wants Lee and is using Denver to convince Zeke that Ron would ulitmately be happier in Denver playing with their talent instead of what Zeke has to offer Ron to play with next year. Ron, while liking the idea of going to NY, has always said he just wants to win and in Denver they certainly could with that talent...assuming they check their egos in at the door. Personally, I'd like to see Ron to NY for Randolf and Robinson. Let them keep Lee.
Arby's Roast Beef
Starter
I've made my opinion pretty clear in the past about Knicks players, sans their youngsters, so if any trade does occur between us and NY, it's for those types of players. The Knicks are separated into two factions of players: the bad ones, which consist of the former stars/useful players (Marbury, Richardson), upper echelon players with laziness issues (Curry, Randolph), and washed up role players (Fred Jones, Jared Jeffries, Jerome James). The ones with any value are their young ones: hustle players (Lee, Balkman) and young athletic talents (Robinson, Chandler). I think Crawford is the only anomaly in this list, in that he's a "vet" who doesn't fit into any of these categories, as he's still highly productive in a Knick uniform.
There's a reason Geoff seems to have been pushing for Lee for the past month or so; Lee is just the type of guy every team needs, with no off/on the court issues, plays hard 24-7, and will undeniably fit into any team seamlessly with his rebounding, putback scoring and basic tough guy reputation. One of my mantras, and which is why I'd like Nene, is not to go directly for the star, but aim for the unheralded role player with potential. Unfortunately, Lee's 10 rebounds per game last year has already made many, including Isiah, notice the guy's true value. If we can't get Lee, though, Balkman wouldn't be too bad, as he's a poor man's basic version of Lee with more defensive skills.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Well, yes, but medically that's not the way you make projections.
Can I ask why his stats this year are so bad?
Also, Brick selected some stats that don't match his last year's stats for some reason; perhaps cherry picking starting stats and not taking into account time off the bench.
I'm on the fence but want to deal with "what is." No distortions to make a point.
Listing a guy's stats when he starts when you are looking at him as a starter is no more distortion than being saavy enoguh to realize that John Salmons does not give you 15ppg off the bench. Its the mixing of the starting/bench numbers that is deceptive. Nene would instantly be our best PF and would start. His numbers as a starter are thereofre far more relevant than his numbers off the bench in the ridiculously crowded Denver frontcourt.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Oh, I do not get this from Denver's perspective at all. Ron and Melo?? They occupy the same space. Let alone Ron and A.I. fighting for the ball. I can only imagine they too want to sink their fortunes with smallball and Ron/Kenyon forming an undersized ill mannerd frontcourt duo. But not our problme...if they want to make such a move, and hell this time our own GM seems to admit there have been talks, I'm not going to make a fuss.
I think the smart move for Denver is to play Carmelo and Ron as your starting forwards, AI and someone else at guard, and Camby at C. That gives you two potent scorers and two top defenders in your starting lineup. Ron and Carmelo are both undersized for PF but Carmelo has the height to play there and Ron has the strength so it probably works out for them on offense and then on defense you've got Camby down there covering up for a lot of mistakes. Kenyon Martin isn't really a starting calibre PF anymore anyway (regardless of what his contract might suggest).
I don't see why AI and Ron on the same team would be an ego problem. AI has already deferred to Melo so he can be a team player. And Ron just wants to win right? When AI trade rumors were going around, I was thinking that having two of the toughest players in the league on the same team would be a plus just in terms of intimidation factor.
I don't see why AI and Ron on the same team would be an ego problem. AI has already deferred to Melo so he can be a team player. And Ron just wants to win right? When AI trade rumors were going around, I was thinking that having two of the toughest players in the league on the same team would be a plus just in terms of intimidation factor.
Last edited:
The thing with Denver is their biggest weakness is perimeter defense. They have nobody to stop the Kobes and TMacs of the world.
Glenn
Hall of Famer
And why was he a 6/6 guy this year? His stats this year are worse than the year before.
Arby's Roast Beef
Starter
A couple of things. Anthony Carter is a fine perimeter defender for a point guard, and routinely gets a couple of blocks per game (and for a point guard, that's pretty rare). Number two, with the sort of front line the Nuggets have, the Nuggets don't really need a "great" perimeter defender--that's not a pressing issue. If the perimeter guy gets burned, Marcus Camby, a strong inside-out defender, and Kenyon Martin, a guy with a steal-block combination and is largely considered to be a good defender, can back them up. I believe Iverson said just recently that the Nuggets want to gamble rather than play actual defense; he said something about gambling more in the passing lanes when they know Camby is right behind them to block shots. Another thing? Eduardo Najera. Dirty, yes. But the guy can guard the Kobes and Tmacs of the world, and does have a defensive reputation.
He tore a ligament in his hand, basically he had the same injury as Bibby. But you don't hear people saying Mike is injury prone. I realize Nene has had more injuries, but it's not his fault Duncan fell on his knee or whatever 3 years ago which caused the torn ACL(he recovered perfectly fine btw, he's okay now). The cancer he should be fine from. The ligament he should be fine from. He's only 25 years old, he's 6'11'', he's a hell of an athlete, he has a great post game, and in 30 MPG he could get over 1 BPG+8 or 9 rebounds(probably more considering how much worse Miller is on the boards than Camby).
It's not the risk everyone's making it out to be. His injuries haven't been "his body is deteriorating" type of injuries, they've been freak accidents and bad luck. As long as the cancer goes away(I heard if he has the chemo there's less than like 2% chance the cancer returns) he should be fine.
Heuge
Starter
Even if the cancer remains there are buyout without salary cap rule which may make things easier on the team that owns his rights.
Yeah I know. The fact is Carter isn't shutting down Kobe and neither is Najera. Najera's too slow, Carter's too small. I remember watching the Nuggets get trashed by the Lakers without Bynum a week or 2 ago on TNT. Kobe had like 10 assists or something. Their problem was he was too big for Carter and too fast for anyone else, so they constantly double teamed him, and he constantly found the open man. That is going to continue to happen until they get a good perimeter defender who can shutdown 2s and 3s. Iverson might want to gamble for steals but that is the type of stuff that gets him lit up by other teams. They get Artest they have lockdown D, imagine what he could do on D with Camby and Martin behind him. He's a great fit there.
Yeah, I also seem to remember that if a guy retires the team gets an exception or the salary cap money or something.
Heuge
Starter
Totally disagree. They would do it because they think Ron is good and would put them over the top now. With AI and Melo and Canby they are committed to win now.
Exactly. That gives them the best perimeter defender in the league, to go with the best shotblocker and a good post defender+shotblocker in Kenyon. There defense would improve so much.
nbrans
All-Star
That too, but I still think they have to be considering the tax. From a basketball standpoint I really think it's a wash for them. Yes, they need perimeter defense, but Nene was key in the playoffs guarding Duncan. And what some people are proposing is to put Artest at the 4 since Carmelo is a natural 3, so they're not actually getting perimeter defense. They're thin on the interior even with Nene, particularly since you can't really count on Kenyon Martin. And they don't really need the offense.
So I don't think Artest gives them that much of a boost over a healthy Nene. Some, maybe, but not huge. In my opinion, the thing that puts this within the realm of possibility is Denver's tax considerations.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Coming off the bench.
This isn't difficult. There's even a line for it in the stats: Games, Games Started. That would be 12 and 1 this year for Nene.
Similar threads
- Locked
- ClutchPoints | Sacramento Kings News
- Personnel moves
[Rumor]
Trade rumor: Spurs reportedly 'positioning' for Kings' De'Aaron Fox; Says he's a Manu Ginobili fan
- kens5.com
- Personnel moves
- Associated Press
- Kings News Links
- NBC Sports BayArea
- Kings News Links
- Sacramento Kings On SI
- Kings News Links
