Are we feeling better yet?

#1
From the depths of my infinitely analytical basketball mind I declare we are still on track for 50 wins. The reason for the losing streak to start the season was due to an email that that got stuck in my drafts folder which contained the offensive schemes as well as the team's soul. I just checked my email and it finally sent about two days ago.

Sorry for the mix up guys.
 
#3
Definitely looking better, but I still think that declining Giles option may come back to bite them in the rear.

Fox will need to stay "SuperFox", Buddy needs to become Buddy again and Bagley needs to get healthy and stronger.

But, yes, the season can still be saved and we can still make a run for the playoffs.
 

pdxKingsFan

Hall of Famer
#5
Definitely looking better, but I still think that declining Giles option may come back to bite them in the rear.
the reality here is we can speculate every which way from Sunday but at this point none of us really has any indication of what is going on. everything from him being done to the team just deciding to cut bait are on the table here.

I'm starting to think there might be some degree of truth to Captain's theory where Harry just really wants to play and the team really wants to hold him out and the compromise was they'd waive the option but he'd still re-sign (this would allow him to get max money quicker as a UFA even if he takes 1-2 years at the end of season). Risky all around by the same token how long can you hold this guy out and ever expect him to pan out?
 
#6
Definitely looking better, but I still think that declining Giles option may come back to bite them in the rear.

Fox will need to stay "SuperFox", Buddy needs to become Buddy again and Bagley needs to get healthy and stronger.

But, yes, the season can still be saved and we can still make a run for the playoffs.
But Fox was always going to have to be Super Fox for us to go anywhere anyways. A little extra room on the court and pressure for him to do that this early in the season has some positives. Don't get me wrong, I want Bagley back asap. I'm also very concerned about the Giles decision, though being the eternal optimiste, I am leaving open the possibility that Giles does shine this year, and we sign him to a reasonable multi year deal beginning next year. One potential strategic benefit (given the scenario that his injuries do not give indications of major problems) - we lock him into a reasonable deal beginning this offseason, rather than after next season, and it ends up being a reasonable deal for both sides.
 
#7
But Fox was always going to have to be Super Fox for us to go anywhere anyways. A little extra room on the court and pressure for him to do that this early in the season has some positives. Don't get me wrong, I want Bagley back asap. I'm also very concerned about the Giles decision, though being the eternal optimiste, I am leaving open the possibility that Giles does shine this year, and we sign him to a reasonable multi year deal beginning next year. One potential strategic benefit (given the scenario that his injuries do not give indications of major problems) - we lock him into a reasonable deal beginning this offseason, rather than after next season, and it ends up being a reasonable deal for both sides.
I understand that the Kings can not offer Giles more than what they turned down in the option (roughly $4M from what I recall). Does anyone know if this also limits the number of years they could offer?
 

pdxKingsFan

Hall of Famer
#8
I understand that the Kings can not offer Giles more than what they turned down in the option (roughly $4M from what I recall). Does anyone know if this also limits the number of years they could offer?
I don't believe it does. But the only case I know of where an option was declined and the player signed a multi-year deal is Furkman Korkmaz and his 3rd year option was the one declined. I think the Warriors declined an option on Kevon Looney and re-signed him but it may have only been one year. I'm pretty sure we could sign him to a 2 year deal as long as year one doesn't exceed the base pay, which I think would be mutually beneficial if that was a deal they agreed to behind the scenes. A lot of risk for both sides as well. And a ton of aggravation for fans.

On the other hand, I think I am ok rolling with Holmes and Dedmon right now.

I wonder though, with these "medical redshirts" becoming more common, maybe there are rule changes in the works that influenced this? Would they have to re-do the CBA to allow players to accept more money?

eta: I hope we never do a medical redshirt again. unless we're picking 30th coming off our championship.
 
#9
I think I'm more down than usual because Bagley is out for a long time. We stomped the Knicks who are atrocious but I've taken one step back from the ledge. Still at serious risk of taking the dive though.
 
#10
A lot of my enthusiasm is tied to the long term vision of what the team can be. Thats why the biggest enthusiasm killer to me has been the Harry Giles news.

Why is the team not being open with his knee health??? They have made a HUGE PR mistake in my mind by not being upfront with his health. The decision to not pick up his option has yet to be justified, and as a fan I need to know why! Unless his career s just done, im F*ing pissed they didnt pick it up. And how the team is handling the optics of it has been absolutely terrible.

Not coming away from that draft with a bonified starter from the 10th pick really hurts. So much excellent talent in that draft
 
#11
A lot of my enthusiasm is tied to the long term vision of what the team can be. Thats why the biggest enthusiasm killer to me has been the Harry Giles news.

Why is the team not being open with his knee health??? They have made a HUGE PR mistake in my mind by not being upfront with his health. The decision to not pick up his option has yet to be justified, and as a fan I need to know why! Unless his career s just done, im F*ing pissed they didnt pick it up. And how the team is handling the optics of it has been absolutely terrible.

Not coming away from that draft with a bonified starter from the 10th pick really hurts. So much excellent talent in that draft
Yea same for me. I'm not too excited right now about winning games with a mediocre team. I'm interested in what the future looks like with Bagley and Gil- excuse me. Bagley.
 
#12
I'm happy because of the effort, they looked lifeless to start the season, and I was worried about team chemistry.

This looks like a competitive 50 50 team, they still need something more to be in the playoff race. Like Bagley becoming an outside threat, or Buddy becoming a defensive ace. Giles was always a wildcard, but that doesn't look promising at this point.

If Bogi doesn't come to life, then I will worry about the bench, because Cojo and Ariza have been good on D, zeros on offense.
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
#13
I don't believe it does. But the only case I know of where an option was declined and the player signed a multi-year deal is Furkman Korkmaz and his 3rd year option was the one declined. I think the Warriors declined an option on Kevon Looney and re-signed him but it may have only been one year. I'm pretty sure we could sign him to a 2 year deal as long as year one doesn't exceed the base pay, which I think would be mutually beneficial if that was a deal they agreed to behind the scenes. A lot of risk for both sides as well. And a ton of aggravation for fans.

On the other hand, I think I am ok rolling with Holmes and Dedmon right now.

I wonder though, with these "medical redshirts" becoming more common, maybe there are rule changes in the works that influenced this? Would they have to re-do the CBA to allow players to accept more money?

eta: I hope we never do a medical redshirt again. unless we're picking 30th coming off our championship.
It was a 3-year contract. https://www.si.com/nba/2019/07/01/kevon-looney-warriors-contract-free-agency-decision

It's not beyond the realm of possibility that the Kings offer Giles something similar.
 
#14
A lot of my enthusiasm is tied to the long term vision of what the team can be. Thats why the biggest enthusiasm killer to me has been the Harry Giles news.

Why is the team not being open with his knee health??? They have made a HUGE PR mistake in my mind by not being upfront with his health. The decision to not pick up his option has yet to be justified, and as a fan I need to know why! Unless his career s just done, im F*ing pissed they didnt pick it up. And how the team is handling the optics of it has been absolutely terrible.

Not coming away from that draft with a bonified starter from the 10th pick really hurts. So much excellent talent in that draft
I'll assume that if they have a plan that involves his return they can't go public with it. The whole thing is extremely agonizing. That is a horrible draft to have blown a pick. I do consider JJ for Barnes a win but even still, I think any player we'd have picked at 10 would have put us ahead.
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
#16
He signed a 3 year this year coming off a one year contract in 2018-2019. His rookie year was 2015-2016. Year 4 was last year.
Gotcha. I guess the question is, would the Kings be precluded from offering a longer term deal? I don't see why they would, give his FA status. Then the question becomes, how many years would you want to offer for someone with his injury history? I guess we'll know the answer to that at the end of this season.
 
#17
Gotcha. I guess the question is, would the Kings be precluded from offering a longer term deal? I don't see why they would, give his FA status. Then the question becomes, how many years would you want to offer for someone with his injury history? I guess we'll know the answer to that at the end of this season.
If he makes it through this season intact, I am hoping maybe they'd do 2 years at a lower rate. Hard to see either side committing to more than 2 years in any scenario. To be honest though, every game he is held out leads me to believe it's over. Fingers crossed and optimistic though. Because what a waste if it's so.
 
#18
A lot of my enthusiasm is tied to the long term vision of what the team can be. Thats why the biggest enthusiasm killer to me has been the Harry Giles news.

Why is the team not being open with his knee health??? They have made a HUGE PR mistake in my mind by not being upfront with his health. The decision to not pick up his option has yet to be justified, and as a fan I need to know why! Unless his career s just done, im F*ing pissed they didnt pick it up. And how the team is handling the optics of it has been absolutely terrible.

Not coming away from that draft with a bonified starter from the 10th pick really hurts. So much excellent talent in that draft
Totally agree. The Kings should just be upfront and come out and say that Giles will be out indefinitely for knee rehab or whatever. Don't list him as Questionable (meaning he is pretty healthy) for game 5 of the season and then just not pick up his measly $4 million option one day later.

They shouldn't be touting him as this amazing talent and one of the cornerstones of the franchise and then don't pick up a measly $4 million option, without an explanation.

That is just one big PR snafu, if you ask me.
 
#20
After contemplating it, I truly do not see not picking up Giles' option as a bad move for the Kings. I do not expect them to be public about the reality of his knees. The fans may not like it... but this is simply not information you want in the market. If his knees don't hold up, we can let him go, sadly.... but we always knew that was a risk. If his knees are ok after this season, we can negotiate a reasonable deal. The cold truth is that not picking up his option reduces his market value. The Kings have invested a lot in his rehab, and the value of that is proprietary - meaning beyond just a one time medical examination that a prospective team could do. They deserves to leverage that information and are likely doing so with this move. Say the chance of his knees being an issue are 30% - the Kings and only the Kings would have the most accurate read on that - and rightly so - because of the investment they've made. Bottom line: not picking up his option doesn't really limit the Kings ability to keep him for a few more years, and it does mitigate the risk of a major knee event over the course of the next year.

This is the cold hard truth.

That said, I'm a HUGE Giles supporter and want nothing more than him to excel. I also have faith that the Kings are using every advanced means available to rehabilitate him. They probably have access to stuff we've never even heard about.
 
#21
After contemplating it, I truly do not see not picking up Giles' option as a bad move for the Kings. I do not expect them to be public about the reality of his knees. The fans may not like it... but this is simply not information you want in the market. If his knees don't hold up, we can let him go, sadly.... but we always knew that was a risk. If his knees are ok after this season, we can negotiate a reasonable deal. The cold truth is that not picking up his option reduces his market value. The Kings have invested a lot in his rehab, and the value of that is proprietary - meaning beyond just a one time medical examination that a prospective team could do. They deserves to leverage that information and are likely doing so with this move. Say the chance of his knees being an issue are 30% - the Kings and only the Kings would have the most accurate read on that - and rightly so - because of the investment they've made. Bottom line: not picking up his option doesn't really limit the Kings ability to keep him for a few more years, and it does mitigate the risk of a major knee event over the course of the next year.

This is the cold hard truth.

That said, I'm a HUGE Giles supporter and want nothing more than him to excel. I also have faith that the Kings are using every advanced means available to rehabilitate him. They probably have access to stuff we've never even heard about.
If Giles steps foot on the court this season and plays say 40+ games and plays reasonably well, i.e. 8-10 pts / 4-5 rebs/ 2 asst / 1.0 blk in 20min/game, then I have no doubt that another team could easily take a chance on him.

Even if the other team offered him a very average contract of 2 years for $10-12 million, that would be $2 million more than what the Kings can give him. For Giles, playing with his knee history, you would think he would jump on the extra $2 million and no one would blame him. A contract like that would be low risk/high reward type gamble we see all the time in the NBA.

That is where the Kings made a very risky and potentially very bad gamble IMHO. If we can buy an extra year at a paltry $4 million option and see what we've got, you have to do it. Its a no brainer to me, unless Giles isn't likely to play again this season. And if that were the case, he shouldn't be listed as Questionable on game day 5 games into the season.
 
#22
If Giles steps foot on the court this season and plays say 40+ games and plays reasonably well, i.e. 8-10 pts / 4-5 rebs/ 2 asst / 1.0 blk in 20min/game, then I have no doubt that another team could easily take a chance on him.

Even if the other team offered him a very average contract of 2 years for $10-12 million, that would be $2 million more than what the Kings can give him. For Giles, playing with his knee history, you would think he would jump on the extra $2 million and no one would blame him. A contract like that would be low risk/high reward type gamble we see all the time in the NBA.

That is where the Kings made a very risky and potentially very bad gamble IMHO. If we can buy an extra year at a paltry $4 million option and see what we've got, you have to do it. Its a no brainer to me, unless Giles isn't likely to play again this season. And if that were the case, he shouldn't be listed as Questionable on game day 5 games into the season.
Just knowing all that I really feel like they have already decided to move on and cut their losses or they have an agreement in principle on what will be done in the offseason. Yes, in the latter case, Giles could explode and reneg. Additionally Giles could blow out his knee and we could say go rehab elsewhere. I'm certain that no matter what the case while this came out of the blue to the fans and media the team has been in communication with Giles and his camp.

I do think we can say with some certainty given Ken Catanella's skill, that despite what media has speculated, the team wasn't "go earn your contract" and unaware regarding the rules about any future negotiations.
 
#23
I think I'm more down than usual because Bagley is out for a long time. We stomped the Knicks who are atrocious but I've taken one step back from the ledge. Still at serious risk of taking the dive though.
Besides, Utah played B2B against the Kings (I think). OTOH, improvements in effort and determination are visible. We will see.
 
#24
If Giles steps foot on the court this season and plays say 40+ games and plays reasonably well, i.e. 8-10 pts / 4-5 rebs/ 2 asst / 1.0 blk in 20min/game, then I have no doubt that another team could easily take a chance on him.

Even if the other team offered him a very average contract of 2 years for $10-12 million, that would be $2 million more than what the Kings can give him. For Giles, playing with his knee history, you would think he would jump on the extra $2 million and no one would blame him. A contract like that would be low risk/high reward type gamble we see all the time in the NBA.

That is where the Kings made a very risky and potentially very bad gamble IMHO. If we can buy an extra year at a paltry $4 million option and see what we've got, you have to do it. Its a no brainer to me, unless Giles isn't likely to play again this season. And if that were the case, he shouldn't be listed as Questionable on game day 5 games into the season.
I don't know if playing 40+ games with those numbers will get him $10 million for 2 years. DeMarcus Cousins is a different animal, but much more proven and he signed a one year deal with the Lakers for $3.5 million. WCS got $2 million. You may be coming up with $10 million for 2 years because it is what Holmes got, but Holmes didn't come with the injury risks that Giles would come with.
 
#25
I don't know if playing 40+ games with those numbers will get him $10 million for 2 years. DeMarcus Cousins is a different animal, but much more proven and he signed a one year deal with the Lakers for $3.5 million. WCS got $2 million. You may be coming up with $10 million for 2 years because it is what Holmes got, but Holmes didn't come with the injury risks that Giles would come with.
The point being that teams do not need to offer a very large contract for the Kings to not be able to match. Topping a $4 million offer is not much of a deterrent for teams to not take a chance on someone of Giles supposed abilities.

If Giles show off his multi-faceted game and stays healthy for the last half of the season, any other team just needs to offer a bit more than the paltry $4 million the Kings are allowed to offer and Giles is gone. Countless teams have made many more riskier and more expensive moves than that over the years.

Let's not pretend that $4 million is some albatross contract. It's not even a MLE and barely more than a vet. minimum contract. I just find it a bad gamble for the Kings to not guarantee such a small contract option, for someone they have touted as having all world abilities. Giles "upside" is what would attract other teams to sign him away from the Kings.
 
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#26
Feeling slightly better now that we aren’t losing by 25 plus each game with no effort or intensity. However, lots of issues remain. Buddy has been pretty bad and his bench counterpart Bogie has been the worst player on the team. As in impressively awful. Our 2 spot was supposed to be a strong point and both guys have been playing nowhere near to their capabilities. We miss Bagley, even though he has his own issues. Fox must keep playing like he’s pissed off the rest of the season or we might as well just mail it in right now. He’s the key to everything. He needs to be aggressive all the time.
 
#27
Hope he gets to play soon, he’s kinda like Holmes with the passion and energy but a much smoother offensive output. The team is mediocre today but Giles would make a potentially lethal bench that much better. Watching the Kings try to play defense against the horrible Knicks made me happy, baby steps Bob and take a vacation from your problems.
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
#28
A lot of my enthusiasm is tied to the long term vision of what the team can be. Thats why the biggest enthusiasm killer to me has been the Harry Giles news.

Why is the team not being open with his knee health??? They have made a HUGE PR mistake in my mind by not being upfront with his health. The decision to not pick up his option has yet to be justified, and as a fan I need to know why! Unless his career s just done, im F*ing pissed they didnt pick it up. And how the team is handling the optics of it has been absolutely terrible.

Not coming away from that draft with a bonified starter from the 10th pick really hurts. So much excellent talent in that draft
There are tons of uncertainties with knee injuries. They may be frustrating, but I think they're doing exactly the right thing by not speculating on his health or putting too much out there. You may WANT to know why, but they are under absolutely no obligation to release that information.

Maybe it's because I'm old, but crying over spilled milk just seems like a waste of time. It is what it is, and what will be will be. I want to see them make the very most of what they have to deal with right now. When Giles is allowed to return to the court, I think we may get some answers. Until then, I'm more concerned with the chemistry of the players and - at least for the last two games - it has looked drastically better.

I am definitely feeling better. And I'm among those who really enjoy Richaun Holmes' mom and her tweets. I also think she's right (along with some of you here). I believe that trip to India, while understandable from Vivek's POV, wreaked havoc with the players.

All in all, it is a good day to be a Kings fan.
 
#30
I really like Giles but it sounds like he came to camp out of shape, his knee puffed up, he has a history of bad knees, etc.

At this point, I wouldn’t play him much. I mean, who does he play over? Bjeli is playing really well, Holmes is a main cog now, Bagley is the 20 and 10 guy, and Giles is not better than Dedmon right now. Dedmon is better defensively and he will get his 3 point shot working again. He’s buried.