bozzwell
Starter
uolj said:
You're really talking to a wrong person here
. I really don't get Americans and race relations. There is a huge amount of denial, anger and repressed guilt that is marring almost every discussion on subject and I invariably end up offending people of all races by my comments. 
Yeah, i'm sick of African-Americans always pulling the race card 
It's getting beyond ridiculous. Jermain got ahead of himself, when he threw the race element into the mix.
I saw him struggling to explain the racist part on NBA Nation yesterday....and he failed....and then failed again. Finally, he admitted that he shouldn't have used the word racist. Next time he should think before he opens his mouth, he is already getting a lot of heat for it and rightfully so, he fully deserves it. All Stern wants to do is improve the quality of the product, he doesn't want a league full of 18 year olds who take 4 years to develop (Miles, Curry, Chandler, Bender, etc). He wants NBA ready college players.
It's getting beyond ridiculous. Jermain got ahead of himself, when he threw the race element into the mix. I saw him struggling to explain the racist part on NBA Nation yesterday....and he failed....and then failed again. Finally, he admitted that he shouldn't have used the word racist. Next time he should think before he opens his mouth, he is already getting a lot of heat for it and rightfully so, he fully deserves it. All Stern wants to do is improve the quality of the product, he doesn't want a league full of 18 year olds who take 4 years to develop (Miles, Curry, Chandler, Bender, etc). He wants NBA ready college players.
HndsmCelt
Hall of Famer
The issue of age limits in the NBA is complex and multifaceted; any analysis or discussion that does not look at the distinct problems both solved and created by age limits is superficial at best and down right dangerous at it’s worst. I won’t pretend to cover all of the considerations but any reasonable discussion should recognize some of these considerations:
1. While it might be farfetched to expect the NBA to be concerned with what is best for basketball in the long run when making decisions that ostensibly only apply to the NBA it’s self, this same nearsighted view of “what is good for me/us and forget the big picture" is the very source of this problem. Young extremely talented players coming out of high school (read Lebron James, Kevin Garnettt and Kobe Bryant) do not worry about what THEIR contracts and success might mean to less talented players who could and often do short change themselves by not focusing on college with the hope of playing pro-ball right out of school, some will get contracts and malinger ala Deshawn Stevenson, but how many more will never make a buck playing ball, and will be hard pressed to get themselves into college. Perhaps concern for these other young men is not the business of Kobe, Kevin and Lebron and admittedly it is too much to ask a 17/18 year old boy to make life choices considering what is best for the sport and what might be best for other young boys. So the owners/GM’s who again decide based on their best interest (in the short run) have to decide between drafting exciting young talented players that could save their franchise or passing on them based on principals. So the buck gets passed on to the NBA proper.
Let there be no question that college ball, is being hurt by the drafting of their freshmen and sophomore players. It takes years to learn complex systems, develop fundamentals and understand team play, but hot shot young players can get fast attention and bail into the draft leaving teams in perpetual building stages and providing raw talent with little discipline. Players skipping even this short training ground not only skim the talent from the colleges but bring their lack of disciplined play to the NBA where coaches hope to play catch up relying on the players talent to overcome their lack of development.
If you look critically not just at what is best for the individual players, colleges or the NBA, but what is best for the sport , the fans and the young men who play it, you might draw different conclusions.
2. The NBA is unique and comparisons to other professional sports are more often than not going to be fallacious. This is due in a large part to the realities of A. the number of disenfranchised urban youth who look to basketball as a way to improve their lives, B. the number of players active in each sport, C. the lack of accepted minor or developmental league, D. The importance of college basketball not only in the development of talent but in providing even more opportunities for players (read players who will NOT go on to play professional ball or will have very short careers) via education.
3. How could an age limit be racist? Certainly not in it’s intent, or on it’s face, but if you look at the EFFECT an age limit might have you COULD see where at some level an age limit might have an effect that is more harmful to some groups over others. If we look at WHO the very young players in the NBA are (especially the highly successful ones) immediately it is clear that these are black players. Given economic considerations it could also be argued that college players from middle class or wealthy families are better able to stay in school for 3-5 years and suffer less financial harm doing so.
In short what JO and other athletes are asking is the rhetorical question “How many white players enter the draft very young and how different is their financial and academic situation than the black players?”
Here is the problem with this from my perspective (remember I teach for a living) While in the SHORT run the harm to a handful of black athletes IS real… it is NOT major. How much LESS money would most young draftees make over the course of their life by taking 3-4 years to play college or developmental ball? Never mind the one in a millions like Lebron James, simply take the average draft players contract multiply it by 3 and then subtract it from the average lifetime earnings (no figures available at this time). Now balance this harm against the almost incalculable harm of countless young men who did not prepare them selves to play college ball and never made the pro’s, the thousands of players who left college with no degree and were ill prepared for work when they either were not drafted or only play a couple of years. Now ask your self which social, ethnic and economic groups are harmed the most by ALOWING young players to enter the draft? (I am also copelled to point out to any young athleet considering leaving college early that they will never ben in an atmosphere like this again, surrounded by bright young vibrant women, countles big parties and limited responsablity)
Believe me this was the BRIEFIST analysis I am comfortable with and it should be obvious that when I suggest that age limits AND a strong developmental/minor league are necessary it is not with out thought as to what is best not just for the NBA but society and basketball as a whole.
1. While it might be farfetched to expect the NBA to be concerned with what is best for basketball in the long run when making decisions that ostensibly only apply to the NBA it’s self, this same nearsighted view of “what is good for me/us and forget the big picture" is the very source of this problem. Young extremely talented players coming out of high school (read Lebron James, Kevin Garnettt and Kobe Bryant) do not worry about what THEIR contracts and success might mean to less talented players who could and often do short change themselves by not focusing on college with the hope of playing pro-ball right out of school, some will get contracts and malinger ala Deshawn Stevenson, but how many more will never make a buck playing ball, and will be hard pressed to get themselves into college. Perhaps concern for these other young men is not the business of Kobe, Kevin and Lebron and admittedly it is too much to ask a 17/18 year old boy to make life choices considering what is best for the sport and what might be best for other young boys. So the owners/GM’s who again decide based on their best interest (in the short run) have to decide between drafting exciting young talented players that could save their franchise or passing on them based on principals. So the buck gets passed on to the NBA proper.
Let there be no question that college ball, is being hurt by the drafting of their freshmen and sophomore players. It takes years to learn complex systems, develop fundamentals and understand team play, but hot shot young players can get fast attention and bail into the draft leaving teams in perpetual building stages and providing raw talent with little discipline. Players skipping even this short training ground not only skim the talent from the colleges but bring their lack of disciplined play to the NBA where coaches hope to play catch up relying on the players talent to overcome their lack of development.
If you look critically not just at what is best for the individual players, colleges or the NBA, but what is best for the sport , the fans and the young men who play it, you might draw different conclusions.
2. The NBA is unique and comparisons to other professional sports are more often than not going to be fallacious. This is due in a large part to the realities of A. the number of disenfranchised urban youth who look to basketball as a way to improve their lives, B. the number of players active in each sport, C. the lack of accepted minor or developmental league, D. The importance of college basketball not only in the development of talent but in providing even more opportunities for players (read players who will NOT go on to play professional ball or will have very short careers) via education.
3. How could an age limit be racist? Certainly not in it’s intent, or on it’s face, but if you look at the EFFECT an age limit might have you COULD see where at some level an age limit might have an effect that is more harmful to some groups over others. If we look at WHO the very young players in the NBA are (especially the highly successful ones) immediately it is clear that these are black players. Given economic considerations it could also be argued that college players from middle class or wealthy families are better able to stay in school for 3-5 years and suffer less financial harm doing so.
In short what JO and other athletes are asking is the rhetorical question “How many white players enter the draft very young and how different is their financial and academic situation than the black players?”
Here is the problem with this from my perspective (remember I teach for a living) While in the SHORT run the harm to a handful of black athletes IS real… it is NOT major. How much LESS money would most young draftees make over the course of their life by taking 3-4 years to play college or developmental ball? Never mind the one in a millions like Lebron James, simply take the average draft players contract multiply it by 3 and then subtract it from the average lifetime earnings (no figures available at this time). Now balance this harm against the almost incalculable harm of countless young men who did not prepare them selves to play college ball and never made the pro’s, the thousands of players who left college with no degree and were ill prepared for work when they either were not drafted or only play a couple of years. Now ask your self which social, ethnic and economic groups are harmed the most by ALOWING young players to enter the draft? (I am also copelled to point out to any young athleet considering leaving college early that they will never ben in an atmosphere like this again, surrounded by bright young vibrant women, countles big parties and limited responsablity)
Believe me this was the BRIEFIST analysis I am comfortable with and it should be obvious that when I suggest that age limits AND a strong developmental/minor league are necessary it is not with out thought as to what is best not just for the NBA but society and basketball as a whole.
Last edited:
bozzwell
Starter
HndsmCelt said:
Thanks Celt for a great contribution to the debate. I agree with everything except that I would not take NCAA into consideration if I was Stern. NCAA's own hypocritical rules would rule Le Bron out from going to college. It is none of their business what players do before or after they join NCAA ranks.
For example, Deron Willimas of Illinois will enter this draft, but will not retain an agent. That way he bypasses NCAA rules and will be able to go back to college and get his degree and one more year of NCAA ball if draft dows not work out.
In an ideal World, there would be an NBA minor league system that would develop and refine talent (not too mention keep players of DL with mystery ailmaints), there would be no age limit - but kids would not have to choose between money and education becuase NCAA would allow them back into the fold if they rescind their NBA contracts (say, if Darko wanted to go to college now and give up the rest of his 10 million salary, why not let him play BBall?). That only leaves NCAA schools with problem of turnover of talent, but that is only true of the very top schools who attract most of the talent and have most of the resources anyway, and I don't really care how they work it out.
uolj
Starter
I'll disagree with those who think that people "pulling the race card" when there is no evidence to support it is a major problem. It is just another example of some people not getting it, or some people who have different opinions/interpretations on a subject. In my opinion, I don't see the age limit as a racial issue, but what O'Neal said (or what Dungy said) is just an opinion I disagree with, and nothing worse.
HndsmCelt did give an indication of why someone might suggest that blacks would be affected more, but I believe that is only because there are more blacks in the league than any other race. If you'll notice, foreign born players would also be adversely affected by an age limit, and many African-American veterans would be positively affected.
Just because those who would be affected negatively are part of a certain group doesn't mean that group is being unfairly targeted, especially when other members of that same group are the ones who benefit.
HndsmCelt did give an indication of why someone might suggest that blacks would be affected more, but I believe that is only because there are more blacks in the league than any other race. If you'll notice, foreign born players would also be adversely affected by an age limit, and many African-American veterans would be positively affected.
Just because those who would be affected negatively are part of a certain group doesn't mean that group is being unfairly targeted, especially when other members of that same group are the ones who benefit.
F
Fillmoe
Guest
i totally agree with UOLJ
cogito ergo sum
Prospect
The race card was brought up because the majority of 18 year olds who get drafted in the NBA are African-American.BullKing said:Yeah, i'm sick of African-Americans always pulling the race card
I saw him struggling to explain the racist part on NBA Nation yesterday....and he failed....and then failed again. Finally, he admitted that he shouldn't have used the word racist. Next time he should think before he opens his mouth, he is already getting a lot of heat for it and rightfully so, he fully deserves it. All Stern wants to do is improve the quality of the product, he doesn't want a league full of 18 year olds who take 4 years to develop (Miles, Curry, Chandler, Bender, etc). He wants NBA ready college players.
The league isn't full of 18 year olds now with the current age requirement at 18 years of age. In fact, the average age of its players is 27.
loopymitch
All-Star
I'm a firm believer in higher education and I think that is the major reason for using an age limit. They should go to college first but unfortunately it's all about money. They see the dollar signs and education goes out the window.
D
DeAtHrOw
Guest
loopymitch said:
I agree with you but I do understand why they do it. Take Darko for example, he would have been better of playing 2-3 more years in the Serbian league or somewhere in Europe instead of rotting on the bench in Detroit. He could potentially risk a career ending injury and never even playing in the NBA. Not to mention money he would have made over there is pocket change compared to what he has now. Like I said, I do not agree with it but I do understand it. Same thing about kids here coming out of high school.
teamdimechampionship
Bench
On this topic Greg Anthony actually makes a good point. For every guy who fails after coming out of high school you can name a bunch of guys that never reached their potential in college.
El Duque
G-League
Jermaine O'Neal very eloquently and obviously stated last night on ESPN that he only implied racism because the majority of the league is black and thus young black men are primarily affected. He was saying it would be an incidental effect and that he was taken out of context because he was asked if the age limit proposal seemed "racist". Probably a journalist looking to capitalize on Jermaine's well-known candor.
that's ridiculous. It would be racist IF Stern said that no African-American player under the age of 20 can enter.. It affects whites and blacks equally!! how the **** is that racist??
You could throw the race element into almost anything...hell you could even say that NBA is racist because there are so many black players. (which BTW would be a ridiculous thing to say, i'm just pointing out that you could pull the race card on almost anything.)
BullKing said:
No it doesn't. What is the percentage of black kids vs white kids that come into the NBA straight out of High School? I'll just make a guess and say that 99% are black, and 1% are white. I'm pretty sure that was the point of what he said. While the age limit isn't really racist, you can see where someone could draw that conclusion.
And plus like El Duque just said, he was kind of manipulated into commenting by the god damned media.
N.U.F.A.N.
Bench
BullKing said:
I agree with you 100% on that one. I'm not assuming things but i really think Jermaine is somewhat racist (even though he SAYS he isnt), due to the fact that he came up with that thought.
If Stern was racist, there wouldnt be that many black people in the NBA.
And if he's racist... Why is his favorite basketball player a black guy? (Shaq)
PixelPusher
Starter
Such a policy cannot be proved to be outright "racist", but it would be naive to assume there are no racial overtones when compared to the NHL, MLB, Golf and Tennis which have no such age restriction. First off, I believe it would serve everyone in discussions of race to understand that racism, like the generation-gap are expressions of a much deeper issue: A Cultural Divide. It's easy to say you shouldn't hate/discriminate/segregate someone simply because of the color of their skin; that's a simple concept even a child could grasp. The rub comes when cultural values of White, Middle-aged Americans clash with Young, African-Americans.
When the NBA proclaims it wants to restrict High Schoolers from entering the league, the unspoken inference is that young, African-American players lack the maturity to handle the money and lifestyle that comes from signing with a pro team.
When the NBA proclaims it wants to restrict High Schoolers from entering the league, the unspoken inference is that young, African-American players lack the maturity to handle the money and lifestyle that comes from signing with a pro team.
A
AriesMar27
Guest
it isnt racist..... but it really only discriminates against one race.... with a complete lack of asain and latino players in the nba it really only affects black athletes.... im all for the age limit.... some of these people are straight up crazy.... and unless lebron wins a ring this year he would have lost absolutely nothing if there were a age limit from the start... the same goes for kobe, kg and o'neal, though i think kobe was 20 or 21 when the lakers won in 2000... even so... it wouldnt have had an impact on their accomplishments....
Like I said you could always "force the issue" and pull the race card on almost anything.... IMO, If someone really wants they will somehow manage to find racism in almost anything....
Its unfortunate that the race card is so overused in this country. Because of that people are too paranoid to discuss race issues . I had a crithical thinking class last semester, and we had a "discussion" on race relations and everybody was scared to speak out....including myself. Even though I had something to say I remained silent because i didn't wanna risk being labeled a racist. IMO, because of that there will always be bad blood between whites and blacks in this country. Hell, you risk a chance of being labeled a racist if you use the word black instead of the "politically correct" African-American. I don't want to start a huge flame war and get banned from the site, so I will say one last thing:
Look at other countries with large black populations: England and France.... how come there are no racial issues in those countries??? Does that tell you something about the black community in this country??
kingsgurl87
Bench
the money..lolAriesMar27 said:
Elise10
Starter
I think that there should be an age limit. There are too many out there coming out of high school that believe that "Oh, I'm better than LeBron, I can do what he does no problem." and end up looking like the next Kwame Brown(the poster child of this) instead. I personally have this problem with my younger brother, who is a fairly decent high school player, but is no way shape or form ready for the NBA.
Jermaine's reason is understandable, but even insinuating racial undertones whether intentional or not was just wrong. Especially coming from a guy who resides in the majority, not the minority. O'Neal himself is one of those young players who resided more on the bench ala Darko, than what Lebron and Carmelo are doing.
The whole Tony Dungy comments, are a backlash to the whole Janet Jackson fiasco with the Super Bowl. To many African-Amercians(not me though) it was perceived that Justin Timberlake got only a slap on the wrist while Janet was villified and ridiculed.
Jermaine's reason is understandable, but even insinuating racial undertones whether intentional or not was just wrong. Especially coming from a guy who resides in the majority, not the minority. O'Neal himself is one of those young players who resided more on the bench ala Darko, than what Lebron and Carmelo are doing.
The whole Tony Dungy comments, are a backlash to the whole Janet Jackson fiasco with the Super Bowl. To many African-Amercians(not me though) it was perceived that Justin Timberlake got only a slap on the wrist while Janet was villified and ridiculed.
PixelPusher
Starter
BullKing said:
I've got new for you, buddy. There ARE racial issues in GB, France and many other European countries. The difference being racism there isn't restricted to one ethnic group; pretty much any outsider qualifies.
F
Fillmoe
Guest
BullKing said:
If your gonna talk about racism try not to sound so much like a racist..........
A
AriesMar27
Guest
BullKing said:
hell, african-american isnt even correct... im not from africa and neither are my parents, grand parents or even great grand parents... just call me american and we'll be cool... or at least "hey you"... thats also acceptable...
england and france dont have large black populations... there are more people in the state of california than there are in england.... and when you pay 5 bucks a gallon for gas with a 25%(germany for example) unemployment rate people have better things to whine about than the color of your skin....
A
AriesMar27
Guest
kingsgurl87 said:the money..lol
and with the weak *** draft that we have this year he wouldnt be the #1 pick and get some serious deals from nike and sprite?
"show 'em my motto...."(now thats racist)
Jermaine O'neal needs to realize that he's in the fraction of a percent of young black kids who actually "make it". Most blow their chance for higher education. They get affirmative action to go to college but dream of the NBA. Frankly, this is good for blacks in the long run, as is affirmative action.
I used to be against affirmative action until I went to a lecture on race issues, which put down some good arguments. The clincher for me was the fact that whites already had affirmative action for over a century. It's called legacy. You can't really have alumni and connections in college helping you get in if your race was systematically barred from higher education for the better part of a century ( and no education before that ). Getting in on merit sounds good, but reality isn't a fair playing field.
I don't blame people for lacking the "courage" to speak up controversially about race. Half of America is old enough to actually remember the civil rights movement. Most of the leadership definitely is. And it's not like racism stopped after the 60s. It wasn't really that long ago though young people are of course, ignorant. I sometimes look at an old professor and wonder about how most old people lived during a time when it was natural to be racist. Then I find the paranoia to be perfectably understandable. I am pretty suspicious about anyone past their mid-life crisis, age-wise.
Think people who whine about blacks are just bitter. It's kinda like a Greek play. Paying for the father's sins, as it were. But hey, that's just how it is. Someone's gotta make things right.
I used to be against affirmative action until I went to a lecture on race issues, which put down some good arguments. The clincher for me was the fact that whites already had affirmative action for over a century. It's called legacy. You can't really have alumni and connections in college helping you get in if your race was systematically barred from higher education for the better part of a century ( and no education before that ). Getting in on merit sounds good, but reality isn't a fair playing field.
I don't blame people for lacking the "courage" to speak up controversially about race. Half of America is old enough to actually remember the civil rights movement. Most of the leadership definitely is. And it's not like racism stopped after the 60s. It wasn't really that long ago though young people are of course, ignorant. I sometimes look at an old professor and wonder about how most old people lived during a time when it was natural to be racist. Then I find the paranoia to be perfectably understandable. I am pretty suspicious about anyone past their mid-life crisis, age-wise.
Think people who whine about blacks are just bitter. It's kinda like a Greek play. Paying for the father's sins, as it were. But hey, that's just how it is. Someone's gotta make things right.
Evenstar
Starter
i think there should be a limit.
rookies aren't usually very fundamentally sound, they should go to college and use the 4 years to refine their skills. learn to share the ball more, work on your jumpshot there, learn to adjust to the changes your body is going to go through.
i'd like to see these young athletes go to school to get an education academically also. many of these kids going straight to the NBA could EASILY get a full college scholorship, yet many would rather go for the dough. money can easily be spent or taken away, an education NEVER can be. theres so many young players who don't want to, which shows me they are LAZY. dude, it's FREE, just study and go to class, is that really so much to ask for when everything is being given to you FREE?!?!?!
rookies aren't usually very fundamentally sound, they should go to college and use the 4 years to refine their skills. learn to share the ball more, work on your jumpshot there, learn to adjust to the changes your body is going to go through.
i'd like to see these young athletes go to school to get an education academically also. many of these kids going straight to the NBA could EASILY get a full college scholorship, yet many would rather go for the dough. money can easily be spent or taken away, an education NEVER can be. theres so many young players who don't want to, which shows me they are LAZY. dude, it's FREE, just study and go to class, is that really so much to ask for when everything is being given to you FREE?!?!?!
Elise10
Starter
The race card does get used too much, but the accusation of it being used is far much worse.
I'll just say in defense of BullKing's question:
No, because basically anyone in this country can pull the race card on any other culture. Every year there's a new race card being pulled about TV characters, First it was African-Americans, then the following year it was Hispanics(or anyone of Latin or Spanish descent) now the current trend is of Asian descent.
I'm currently reading in the news about how a white assistant principal made all 14 Haitian students(4th graders) eat their lunch on the floor "like how the animals do in your country" while other students watched all because of 2 of them were fighting.
I can see the race card can be justified here, not like Jermaine O'Neal over 2 years(or less) of a waiting period before going to the NBA.
I'll just say in defense of BullKing's question:
No, because basically anyone in this country can pull the race card on any other culture. Every year there's a new race card being pulled about TV characters, First it was African-Americans, then the following year it was Hispanics(or anyone of Latin or Spanish descent) now the current trend is of Asian descent.
I'm currently reading in the news about how a white assistant principal made all 14 Haitian students(4th graders) eat their lunch on the floor "like how the animals do in your country" while other students watched all because of 2 of them were fighting.
I can see the race card can be justified here, not like Jermaine O'Neal over 2 years(or less) of a waiting period before going to the NBA.
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