After 13 games.....

[Gary]

After 13 games together how do you think the starting unit is playing together?

POSITIVES: I feel the starting unit is fine as is. I would like to see more of the run and gun offense of a couple years ago when we had Bibby, Christie, Peja, Miller, Vlade. We would get like 30 point leads in games back then. This team is VERY capable of playing that type of game. We need to break out the tapes, and have them watch them day and night and emulate that team.

NEGATIVES: The bench just sucks. They have no chemistry when playing with starters, and they have no chemistry amongst themselves. I feel the bench has single handedly lost us at least 2-3 games.

Coaching has been subpar as well. The substitution pattern has left much to be desired.

 

[KingKong]

Agreed with the Run n' gun to a certain extent, but we need rebounding and quick reaction for that which, is completely lacking. You can see it in spurts. It would be to our advantage to be leading by 30pts with our defense or lack thereof, but what happens in the playoffs (assuming we make them). Run n' gun is great during the season but we need the balance of a half- court offense for the playoffs (again asssuming we make them)...... our defense is what really worries me though.

 

[Bricklayer]

Its hard to run n gun when you lack athleticism, are always taking the ball out of the hoop after made shots, and depend on your 6'5" OG to do most of your rebounding (seeing as your OG is somebody you'd like to see leading the break, not starting it, and he's one of the few even average athletes in the starting lineup). Having Bonzi clean up the d-boards while Brad leaks out for the full court lumber isn't a winning formula. That half season in 03-04 has to be one of the most overrated in any team's history, but at least they were spanking the bad teams at home, not trying to sneak away with come from behind victories.

Starting 5 is coming together offensively. Should be able to score enough to overwhelm most of the bad teams now. On the other hand, the defense still sucks, and there is little hope of significant improvement seeing as nobody is particularly underacheiving on that end. Just a bunch of unathletic poor defenders unathletically and poorly defending. Puts a real cap on how good or far this crew can go. As does Bonzi being the only thing between us and rebounding armaggedon.

Oh, and the bench just flat out sucks, and really has shown only sporadic bursts of life. Not even like its getting better and better. We could badly use a consolidating trade somewhere to get a true 6th man type to anchor things there and provide a bench leader. Not sure it even matters what position he plays -- just has to be an impact guy off the pine.

Overall, right now I think we are a +.500 team, although we will have to see what happens as the season wears on and we are out on the road for long stretches. But at the moment, +.500 looks reasonable barring injuries and whatnot, and we're in a weak division, so still a good/decent shot at the playoffs (of course always the question if you end up having to sneak in at #8 if you wouldn't be better hitting the lottery with a chance to draft #1-#3). And if everything came together just perfectly and we got hot for a nice streak somewhere, might still be able to sneak in at 50 wins. Maybe. Still not out of the realm of possibility. But if we come of our first 21 games, 14 of which are at home, no better than .500 or so, it will be tough to make up that ground on the road for the rest of the year. We need to get a move on.

 

[Londonking]

^^ I think you are being to harsh Brick.

Okay, we know about our defensive frailties, and that issue isnt going to be resolved quickly. Some might even suggest that it could require a different coach and line-up to get up to a 'satisfactory' defensive effort.

I hope these existing players can raise their defensive effort - but i doubt it. I accept that deficiency and so look at the way we execute our offense as the mark by which i judge the team. (Along with the results of course.)

I am happy with the field goal percentages of our starters. (between .435 and .555)

We seem fairly consistant at the free-throw stripe

It doesnt surprise me that Peja leads our av. scoring with 21.5 ppg.

From what ive heard of SAR he is fitting into the team effectively and you highlighted Bonzi's rebounding achievements.

I would like to see our assists per game rising, but i dont detect carelessness in turnovers so far.

People on this board are critical of our bench and with good reason in some cases, but Kevin Martin has showed how he has great potential and Cisco has also shown promise. These are young players, learning as they go. With patience we can see them develop and be part of the chemistry needed for success to support the starters.

So overall Im more optimistic than you at this stage. I think we will make the play-offs and i believe the journey there will make us better by the time March comes around.

 

[KingKong]

Another thing is that I don't think we were ever a run n' gun team during the the Webb, Vlade and Christie era.... we did run sometimes (maybe more in '99-'00), however there was also mostly princeton offense being run with nifty passing and cutting and moving the ball around in the half- court set. I believe the Mavs could take the claim as previously being a complete run n' gun team but even they have moved away from that offense now, as it didn't get them anywhere in the playoffs

 

[AriesMar27]

after 13 games miller still cant rebound, peja is still soft and our bench still sucks...


wonder if we could trade skinner and hart for bobby and tsakalidis..... its not like skinner is getting any playing time....

 

[Londonking]

^^......and i would expect to be able to make the same statements about Miller and Peja after 80 games.

However, that doesnt mean they both wont play vital roles in getting us into the post season.

Miller can score and pass and Peja is there to shoot and attract double teams. That works for me.

I agree we need to upgrade the bench. i dont think the whole bench is a write-off though. We have young talent there.

 

[Bricklayer]

I hope these existing players can raise their defensive effort - but i doubt it. I accept that deficiency and so look at the way we execute our offense as the mark by which i judge the team. (Along with the results of course.)

Well cool, obviously if we just ignore everything they do badly, and then just focus on what they do well, then everything is hunky dorry.

Along the same lines I was just reflecting the other day on what a total and complete stud Greg Ostertag was.

We do not play both sides of the court. The game is played on both sides of the court. Therefore that is incredibly relevant. More relevant than even I make it out to be since the game is in fact 50% offense and 50% defense, and even I end up talking about us as if the game were somehow 75% and 25% and the crap defense was just flavoring to the nice offense.

 

[Londonking]

^^Im not saying it's ideal that we are not good at defence. However, I think that flaw is recognised and whilst wishing it wasnt the case, the fans still love their Kings because of the way they are capable of lighting teams up offensively.

I dont think there is any hope of seeing the current roster be defenisve stalworts. So im not going to hope for that.

I do believe that this group has the capability to beat any team on any given night. (including San Antonio and Detroit). We have the players to be able to out-gun the opposition.

Im not in favour of wholesale changes to the roster to try to get that 50 - 50 balance you long for just yet.

 

[Bricklayer]

^^Im not saying it's ideal that we are not good at defence. However, I think that flaw is recognised and whilst wishing it wasnt the case, the fans still love their Kings because of the way they are capable of lighting teams up offensively.

I dont think there is any hope of seeing the current roster be defenisve stalworts. So im not going to hope for that.

I do believe that this group has the capability to beat any team on any given night. (including San Antonio and Detroit). We have the players to be able to out-gun the opposition.

Im not in favour of wholesale changes to the roster to try to get that 50 - 50 balance you long for just yet.

There is a sometimes troubling line of thought that Sacramento fans are all just skip through the lilly field types uninterested in winning and just blithely satisfied if their team looks all nice and pretty. I don't actually believe that, and as the declining hits on various Kings boards, hordes of empty seats in the upper deck at Arco, and ability to buy a set of game tickets now for about $25 can attest, I think I'm right. You play to win. The fans will follow.

And so I will always interpret any question/thread of this nature as "how are we doing as regards winning", not "how pretty do you think we can look?" If you have the best offense in the world, but the worst defense, you're still only going to win 50% of your games. And if your organizational goal is to win rather than look good, then you do what it takes to correct that situation (we have neither the best offense nor worst defense, but are certainly badly imbalanced). Nor does it have to be either/or -- its not a zero sum game. If you're a talented GM, you might even find players capable of making you simultaneuously a good offensive and good defensive team. That's not this crew. And Geoff had to know that, or certainly should have. Which is the scary part.

In any case there may not be a right or wrong here, you and I may simply be grading them on a different scale.

 

[Londonking]

I dont want to be mis-interpreted. I do want the Kings to win, and keep winning. I also want them to play attractive basketball to achieve that if possible.

I dont think we are the best team in the NBA, we probably just scrape into the top ten. However, that doesnt mean this team cant win the West and have a shot at the rings.

I would not intentionally imply that Kings fans dont mind if the team wins or loses. On the contrary, the recent boos from Arco suggest the fans passionately do hold winning above all else.

Remember, ive only known the Kings since 2002. I can only look at them with that limited (yet relatively sucessful) history. The Kings i have known have played exciting basketball and although i know these are not the same players I still hope and expect them to live up to the team of a couple of seasons ago.

 

[KingDog]

LondonKing...^^^^
wish that I were as optomistic as you. I love my team too. But right now, with this particular version of the Kings. I would personally relegate them to somewhere in the bottom third. I will re-asses that after the trade deadline or....you know ....if someone sprinkles some magic defense dust on them. I hear that Bonzi scored some of it. Hopefully he will share!

 

[ForlornKing]

I don't know why Skinner can't play any minutes, and that SAR has to log half his minutes at center.

 

[AriesMar27]

^^^ because no one on the bench cant score.... maybe if peja were healthy and martin or garcia were more consistent he would get more minutes.... but you are right i dont get why he doesnt get any real minutes....

 

[Kings113]

Which is why an addition of some sort will be/is needed this season.

 

[AriesMar27]

im telling you, hart and skinner for bobby j and jake t...... problem solved, well... scoring off the bench would be solved....

 

[Kings113]

im telling you, hart and skinner for bobby j and jake t...... problem solved, well... scoring off the bench would be solved....

B-Jax back? I love him, but he's too unpredictable health-wise. Tsakalidis? I don't know much or seen much of him, know he's got a bunch of size, and can rebound, but that's it... I'd still rather Skinner. Besides, Skinner hasn't played much at all, and Hart is still fitting in with a new and different team (offense). Writing them off so quick I don't agree with is all.

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/brian_skinner/index.html

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/jake_tsakalidis/index.html

http://www.hoopshype.com/players/iakovos_tsakalidis.htm

 

[Gary]

Oh, and the bench just flat out sucks, and really has shown only sporadic bursts of life. Not even like its getting better and better. We could badly use a consolidating trade somewhere to get a true 6th man type to anchor things there and provide a bench leader. Not sure it even matters what position he plays -- just has to be an impact guy off the pine.

DONYELL MARSHALL.. Bench-4-life player, yet brings starter type numbers, and can play some D.

 

[Gary]

I don't know why Skinner can't play any minutes, and that SAR has to log half his minutes at center.

Skinner was effective with the starting unit last year. He does not require plays be ran for him to score. He gets those garbage points as well as anyone. But Skinner/Williamson on the floor is too many garbage point players.

 

[SacDoug]

I don't know why Skinner can't play any minutes, and that SAR has to log half his minutes at center.

Because Skinner can't pass, and can't score. Skinner is good on defense but on offense, he can only set picks and fight for a rebound. I've seen him blocked a number of times when he was fed the ball right under the basket. The only shots that he makes are uncontested right next to the basket.

Skinner needs to either learn how to pass, shoot or post up to get more minutes.

 

[Circa_1985_Fan]

After 13 games together how do you think the starting unit is playing together?

POSITIVES: I feel the starting unit is fine as is. I would like to see more of the run and gun offense of a couple years ago when we had Bibby, Christie, Peja, Miller, Vlade. We would get like 30 point leads in games back then. This team is VERY capable of playing that type of game. We need to break out the tapes, and have them watch them day and night and emulate that team.

NEGATIVES: The bench just sucks. They have no chemistry when playing with starters, and they have no chemistry amongst themselves. I feel the bench has single handedly lost us at least 2-3 games.

Coaching has been subpar as well. The substitution pattern has left much to be desired.

I still give it another 15 games or so...I said it would take about 30 games for this team to get REALLY in tune with each other...so I do think they will hit a few rocky spots upcoming before the kinks are all KNOWN, then they can be worked out. I'm still sticking to my initial thought of 30 games.

 

[Circa_1985_Fan]

B-Jax back? I love him, but he's too unpredictable health-wise. Tsakalidis? I don't know much or seen much of him, know he's got a bunch of size, and can rebound, but that's it... I'd still rather Skinner. Besides, Skinner hasn't played much at all, and Hart is still fitting in with a new and different team (offense). Writing them off so quick I don't agree with is all.

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/brian_skinner/index.html

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/jake_tsakalidis/index.html

http://www.hoopshype.com/players/iakovos_tsakalidis.htm

ok, now this is just not needed in this thread. and memphis wouldnt be this stupid in the first place.

 

[NewMonkey]

We could badly use a consolidating trade somewhere to get a true 6th man type to anchor things there and provide a bench leader. Not sure it even matters what position he plays -- just has to be an impact guy off the pine.

There's a guy out there - can't recall his name offhand. He's a little undersized for the power forward, so he's more of a three. But he's instant offense off the bench. He's got an excellent low post game, consistently gets to the line and can absolutely be counted on to produce double figures as a sixth man. He's a multiyear veteran, is tough and will lay some wood on people when its needed. I think he even won a college and an NBA championship. If only I could recall his name...

 

[ONEZERO]

does pj brown still wanna get traded to a contender?

corliss and thomas for brown anyone? and maybe we can get speedy claxton as well?? eh not likely though

 

[ONEZERO]

There's a guy out there - can't recall his name offhand. He's a little undersized for the power forward, so he's more of a three. But he's instant offense off the bench. He's got an excellent low post game, consistently gets to the line and can absolutely be counted on to produce double figures as a sixth man. He's a multiyear veteran, is tough and will lay some wood on people when its needed. I think he even won a college and an NBA championship. If only I could recall his name...

uhhhh, is it corliss?

 

[Circa_1985_Fan]

uhhhh, is it corliss?

Glad someone is recognizing the fact that Corliss needs to play, and me a consistant contributer besides me

 

[Kings113]

ok, now this is just not needed in this thread. and memphis wouldnt be this stupid in the first place.

I agree, but I was just replying with my opinion. Didn't plan on turning it into a trade thread, so keep it that way.

 

[Circa_1985_Fan]

I agree, but I was just replying with my opinion. Didn't plan on turning it into a trade thread, so keep it that way.

cool, it happens

 

[ForlornKing]

This is from another board but I really like this idea.

sacramento trades: mike bibby, peja stojakavic
sacramento gets: joe johnson, earl watson, voshan lenard, nate robinson

Gets a player in JJ with a lot of much needed athleticism and Heart. JJ+Bonzi=Awesome. Get a lot deeper also.

c - miller/skinner
pf - abdur-rahim/thomas
sf - johnson/garcia
sg - wells/lenard/martin
pg - watson/hart/robinson

atlanta trades: joe johnson
atlanta gets: mike bibby


c - pachulia/edwards
pf - harrington/batista
sf - smith/williams
sg - childress/delk
pg - bibby/lue

denver trades: earl watson, voshan lenard, 2nd
denver gets: quentin richardson, david lee

c - camby/elson
pf - martin/lee
sf - anthony/najera
sg - richardson/hodge
pg - miller/boykins

new york trades: quentin richardson, david lee, nate robinson
new york gets: peja stojakavic, denver 2nd


c - curry/frye/james
pf - davis/rose/taylor
sf - stojakavic/barnes/ariza
sg - crawford
pg - marbury

 

[Kings113]

cool, it happens

....

I like that above though.