A general discussion on Isaiah Thomas
- Thread starter Maverick
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This IT stuff is nonsense. Sure, why don't we have him just pass the ball to all those wonderful shooters we have - Salmons and Thornton and Patterson, oh my! Salmons and Thornton and Patterson oh my! Sing it now! They are far superior to him in shooting; we've seen as much this year. And if that melody doesn't work there's always the low funereal dirge of a chorus: Thomp-son, Out-law Hayes, du dunne du dugh, du dunne, du dugh.... With those kind virtuosos and that kind of music beautiful basketball will emanate from the floor. And besides, IT is really bad on defense, you know because of shortness and all, so let's play Vasquez a lot more. Because he's 6'6" and we know he's such a defensive stopper because, well, he's 6'6". Have him guard Lillard and CP3 and Teague and Curry during the 4th quarter rather than the 1st part of the 1st quarter, when by sheer circumstance the team continually gets behind. If it doesn't work in the 1st quarter it's bound to be remedied by the 4th quarter. Right?
I really wish you would read the comments before going off. Depends on whether you are trying to get points for IT or prepare for the long term. I'm all for more of a team game in the long term. Certainly you got more out of what has been posted than what was in your rant. I know you can read and comprehend.
I don't think Ray McCallum is ready for a regular spot in the rotation yet. The PG position is a lot of responsibility to put on a rookie. Right now his role is to learn as much as he can about how the offense works, how the team defense works, work hard in practice, and watch from the bench. He'll likely get his shot toward the end of the season to make an impression. Hopefully Vasquez is just a one year rental for us. As a facilitator he's fine. He understands how to run a team. But his defense is just not going to cut it long term in the starting lineup. IT can't be the starter for all the reasons discussed here and elsewhere on this board. The way I see this developing is that IT will either play himself into a trade, play himself into the sixth man role on this team, or play himself into free agency and a big contract somewhere else. Whether the sixth man thing sticks or not will have something to do with what we see from Ray McCallum late in the season because they're in competition for the backup PG spot long-term. There's still a lot of season left. Jimmer is in very much in the same position as IT right now as far as what happens next year and I think he'll get a chance to play significant minutes and state his case at some point as well.
My personal feeling, as I expressed earlier, is that IT could be a very good bench scoring sparkplug in the playoffs. His ability to get to the rim on basically anyone or get hot and fire of a quick succession of threes is something that defenses just can't handle. He's a problem. In limited bursts, you want a wild card like that on your side because the other team can't really gameplan for it. (It should be noted, a motivated MT has that potential as well) But we're not a playoff team yet and he's going to be expensive to re-sign. At the very least we should be exploring what his value is around the league right now.
My personal feeling, as I expressed earlier, is that IT could be a very good bench scoring sparkplug in the playoffs. His ability to get to the rim on basically anyone or get hot and fire of a quick succession of threes is something that defenses just can't handle. He's a problem. In limited bursts, you want a wild card like that on your side because the other team can't really gameplan for it. (It should be noted, a motivated MT has that potential as well) But we're not a playoff team yet and he's going to be expensive to re-sign. At the very least we should be exploring what his value is around the league right now.
A risky but possibly very rewarding move affecting IT is to bundle he, Thornton and Fredette in a trade for whatever real value the would bring. Purpose would be to free up McCallum and Ben and any new talent we got to shore up team play on both sides of the court. Risky but maybe settling on a better direction for the team.
That wouldnt be a bad idea, that would also set up whoever of the 3 is left to be set up as the main scoring guard off the bench.
Im all for even a lopsided trade in somebodys favor to balance out the roster. Even taking on a crap contract for a player that will help us is better than having all these useless pieces clogging up the roster
Im all for even a lopsided trade in somebodys favor to balance out the roster. Even taking on a crap contract for a player that will help us is better than having all these useless pieces clogging up the roster
You Say Tomato.
I guess we just define clutter differently. For me, if there was one Jimmer thread, it would be hundreds of pages long and I would avoid it because I know there would be page after page with no quality discussion; just people repeating their mantras over and over, or people taking shots at one another. On the other hand, I don't want a new Jimmer thread started every day because, clearly, the vast majority of them would be a regurgitation from the previous day.
I guess we just define clutter differently. For me, if there was one Jimmer thread, it would be hundreds of pages long and I would avoid it because I know there would be page after page with no quality discussion; just people repeating their mantras over and over, or people taking shots at one another. On the other hand, I don't want a new Jimmer thread started every day because, clearly, the vast majority of them would be a regurgitation from the previous day.
In this instance, the two new IT threads started today (including yours) fit right in with what was currently already being discussed. When that happens, discussion is often either duplicated in multiple threads or lost in the shuffle. That's why the two threads were merged into the current IT thread.
I do agree, however, that we need to make sure we aren't lumping things together that are actually different in substance.
I do agree, however, that we need to make sure we aren't lumping things together that are actually different in substance.
It is very convenient to look hard at the PG position on a losing team and point to the man running it as the problem. IT should not be made a scapegoat.
The Kings have multiple serious problems. Bball is the consumate team game. That is why some of us are so enthralled by it. Half the players on the Kings compete when they feel like it. They glide around the floor earning millions of dollars enduring a very long season. The poster boy is Salmons. He barely gets out of breath. I can't stand the guy. It is not the amount of skill he has, but what he does with it. Patterson, Thompson, and Thornton need to get with the program. GV is adjusting to a new team. Ben and IT are bright spots. The team misses Landry. Players like Jimmer, Hayes and Outlaw are destined to be role players. Cousins will be fine as long as his head works.
Malone is the right kind of coach for a team that is mentally weak and lacks toughness. Effort, competitiveness, energy, are the main missing ingredients. The Kings would greatly benefit from a skilled player that is really, really competitive. Notorious examples are Bird, MJ, Magic, Barkeley, and Kobe. These guys hate to lose. A player that is not an all-star but has the drive to compete and motivate his teammates is sorely lacking on this team.
The Kings have multiple serious problems. Bball is the consumate team game. That is why some of us are so enthralled by it. Half the players on the Kings compete when they feel like it. They glide around the floor earning millions of dollars enduring a very long season. The poster boy is Salmons. He barely gets out of breath. I can't stand the guy. It is not the amount of skill he has, but what he does with it. Patterson, Thompson, and Thornton need to get with the program. GV is adjusting to a new team. Ben and IT are bright spots. The team misses Landry. Players like Jimmer, Hayes and Outlaw are destined to be role players. Cousins will be fine as long as his head works.
Malone is the right kind of coach for a team that is mentally weak and lacks toughness. Effort, competitiveness, energy, are the main missing ingredients. The Kings would greatly benefit from a skilled player that is really, really competitive. Notorious examples are Bird, MJ, Magic, Barkeley, and Kobe. These guys hate to lose. A player that is not an all-star but has the drive to compete and motivate his teammates is sorely lacking on this team.
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IT is doing what he should've been doing all along, being a great spark off the bench. I see no reason to criticize the man for what he's doing, which is give the team offense in a reserve role. Maybe he is a chucker at times, but that's what a lot of great 6th men are and that is their role. No, he should not start at PG...ever.
The discussion of IT is reaching the magnitude of the discussion of Tyreke and other designated hot topic Kings of the past. However let's keep on track. I don't think anyone has suggested that IT is THE problem of the team. He is not being scapegoated. I think some of us are trying to give a competitive and I think accurate view from what we hear from Grant and Jerry. IT is a great athlete. He is a great offensive force. He can be more than that as he has tunnel vision.
I think this seems to be the plot of many of our discussions. We pick out a great athlete with serious holes in his game and pick him to death.
I think this seems to be the plot of many of our discussions. We pick out a great athlete with serious holes in his game and pick him to death.
It's not even close to being IT's fault that we are like this. He's at where he needs to be. A bench guy that can score in bunches. That's what he is and that's what he does. He's put into the situation where he has to shoot a lot because our STARTERS have dropped the ball and put us behind but a LOT of points when he comes in.
GV has disappointed, MT has, Salmons has, PPat has. That's 4/5 of our starting lineup! GV might get a pass because what can he do when nobody ever swings the ball back to him if they don't have a shot (they will usually take a contested shot, or miss all together). But every other starter besides Cousins and maybe GV is fail. We need to scrap these "vets" we have on the team and pretty much start over with Cousins. Work from the ground up rather than trying to fit pieces into the large cracks we have in our rotation.
GV has disappointed, MT has, Salmons has, PPat has. That's 4/5 of our starting lineup! GV might get a pass because what can he do when nobody ever swings the ball back to him if they don't have a shot (they will usually take a contested shot, or miss all together). But every other starter besides Cousins and maybe GV is fail. We need to scrap these "vets" we have on the team and pretty much start over with Cousins. Work from the ground up rather than trying to fit pieces into the large cracks we have in our rotation.
I (speaking for myself only) criticize IT because he develops tunnel vision and refuses to kick out to the open man. When you've got a shooter like Ben or Jimmer on the floor and you're double-teamed or in traffic, you look for them as an outlet. IT forgets or refuses to do that at times. That's why I criticize him.
I don't get why GV keeps getting blamed here for dissapointg. Sure, he isn't at 9 assists per game like last year. But if Thornton, Salmons, and Patterson were knocking down their open jumpers that were set up by GV, he could be averaging more than 9 a game. Not to mention his shooting is better than pretty much everyone that it would be.
For IT, I think its both what Glenn / VF21 say as well as the fact that he doesn't seem to be able to adjust when the defense adjusts to him. He comes in, changes the pace of the game, get's hot and then once the D adjusts, he just keeps doing the same thing only trying much harder. This is when the ball should be back in Cuz's hands, but it doesn't happen. That's why he's an ideal 6th man, but not an ideal starter (yet).
IT quote in the bee today
"We need some change and we've got to have some change in some guys' attitudes," Thomas said.
Yes you are correct IT time to look in the mirror to me you are one of the 3 problems we have because of your selfish play. I see some people compare him to Bobby Jackson and yes we like him now, but back then all he cried about was not being a starter like IT. The problem with IT is that everyone is given a role and I do not believe he can embrace it and do his best. I want to really like IT but I am a fan of team basketball even guys like Iverson could drop 30pts and at least drop 9 assist. I understand IT is a shoot first guard but man this is extreme a bench player not named Jamal Crawford being second on your team on shots is not good for the club. I think he should keep coming off bench and coach needs to cut his minutes and play others like Ray and BM and let them develop we are 1-5 with the IT show not working
"We need some change and we've got to have some change in some guys' attitudes," Thomas said.
Yes you are correct IT time to look in the mirror to me you are one of the 3 problems we have because of your selfish play. I see some people compare him to Bobby Jackson and yes we like him now, but back then all he cried about was not being a starter like IT. The problem with IT is that everyone is given a role and I do not believe he can embrace it and do his best. I want to really like IT but I am a fan of team basketball even guys like Iverson could drop 30pts and at least drop 9 assist. I understand IT is a shoot first guard but man this is extreme a bench player not named Jamal Crawford being second on your team on shots is not good for the club. I think he should keep coming off bench and coach needs to cut his minutes and play others like Ray and BM and let them develop we are 1-5 with the IT show not working
I'm extremely tired of misguided posts like this. He's got one of the top PER's so far this season. He's one of the most effective scorers in the NBA this season. He's got the 15th best AST% this season.
So yes. Great idea. Lets reduce IT's shots and have him get Ppat, Thornton, Salmons, JT, Hayes going. The only reason those guys have stunk this year is they are being stifiled by IT's "selfish" play
So yes. Great idea. Lets reduce IT's shots and have him get Ppat, Thornton, Salmons, JT, Hayes going. The only reason those guys have stunk this year is they are being stifiled by IT's "selfish" play
Here is what I am saying is that I am not looking at 6-7 games I am talking about this guy from last year to this year, and his past which I can speak off because I have seen IT play several games in college. No doubt he can score but at what cost to the team, oh yeah 1-5. Not his fault I am just saying in my opinion he is a part of the problem not the solution until he changes his me first mentality and think about the team. I get people like IT, but everyone agrees he is a first shoot guy, he is not trying to set up teammates up which I believe he could that if he wanted to because he can get in the lane. There is guards in the league that can make players around him better because they can get players really easy looks, I think IT can do that but has chosen to not do that. Just my opinion
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Very few around here dislike IT. They think he's valuable and has a definite role on the team. He isn't Mighty Mouse and he doesn't have to "save the day" all by himself. Yes, there are times when there isn't a better option but there are other times when another player - especially the last game when it was Ben or Jimmer - open and IT simply doesn't see them. I don't think anyone is saying he needs to always kick out. We're just saying we'd like to see him remember it's an option.
My frustration with him is that I think he can be better. I think he can be a scorer, and make the smart pass sometimes too. We rarely see him do both things in the same game. It's shooting mode, where he has blinders to everyone else on the court, or he's so set on facilitating, he forgets to shoot. If he ever does both at the right times, he'll be very good. But he can't only be happy and involved defensively when he's scoring. That has to be there every play, whether he's scoring or not. That's not there yet.
Spot on. IT has been very good this year. Nobody is saying otherwise. That doesn't mean he hasn't missed important plays and done some bafflingly selfish things at times when there were better options available.
Everyone harps on him for missing lob passes to McLemore. Why? Because that is an efficient play. Assuming IT's pass is anywhere in the vicinity, McLemore can finish those 9 times out of 10. What's more is that it gets the crowd and your teammates involved to see things like that.
People love seeing IT score, but what people want most of all, after 5 years of 1 on 5 ball, is to see the Kings beat opposing teams as a team. Maybe they don't have the personnel to do that. Maybe IT knows that he is playing for a contract, Kings' fortunes be damned.
Everyone harps on him for missing lob passes to McLemore. Why? Because that is an efficient play. Assuming IT's pass is anywhere in the vicinity, McLemore can finish those 9 times out of 10. What's more is that it gets the crowd and your teammates involved to see things like that.
People love seeing IT score, but what people want most of all, after 5 years of 1 on 5 ball, is to see the Kings beat opposing teams as a team. Maybe they don't have the personnel to do that. Maybe IT knows that he is playing for a contract, Kings' fortunes be damned.
There's defn some of that contract motivation. Which, honestly, can you fault him? He makes 884k and is possibly our #2 player at the moment. It would be stupid of him to not play for a contract and numbers., especially on a team going nowhere. Someone needs to convince him assists count in the numbers accumulation as well and will lead to an even better contract. And stop alienating teammates in the process.
I was thinking he just made a generalized statement? I hadn't read the thread until yesterday so I think my comment was kind of generalized as well, but there were a few things I wanted to get off my chest which might have not been in the direction the conversation was at the point that I posted it.
I think, at some points in some games, that Kings fans just like seeing ANYBODY score. IT doing what he does gives everyone a boost. When he gets better court vision and stronger abilities to see open guys, he'll be deadly. For now, he's an effective weapon that Malone can wield, but with limited uses.
A comparison was made to Iverson a few posts up, and I was reminded of the two players we got from the Sixers in exchange for C-Webb (bad deal). They were so excited to be on a passing team, moving around, instead of (in their words) "Standing there watching somebody dribble the ball."
A comparison was made to Iverson a few posts up, and I was reminded of the two players we got from the Sixers in exchange for C-Webb (bad deal). They were so excited to be on a passing team, moving around, instead of (in their words) "Standing there watching somebody dribble the ball."
Funny, that wasn't an excuse in your eyes for a certain someone when he repeatedly broke down defenses and kicked it to open shooters who bricked time and time again over the last 3+ seasons.
Very shortsided some of the IT defense I see around here given the posts we've all read over the last few years regarding another guy who would penetrate at will yet was surrounded with poor shooters. Back then it was his fault, now all the sudden it's the shooters fault because it's IT making the passes.
Very shortsided some of the IT defense I see around here given the posts we've all read over the last few years regarding another guy who would penetrate at will yet was surrounded with poor shooters. Back then it was his fault, now all the sudden it's the shooters fault because it's IT making the passes.
Kingster your a bright guy, but don't let yourself be blinded by whats fun to watch. Yeah, its fun to watch this little 5'9" player drive into the basket and somehow throw up a shot among'st the giants and have it go in. He's a very talented player, and his height has nothing to do with that aspect. However, and I speak from personal preference, I like a PG that scores his points within the flow of the game. I watched a game with Chris Paul the other night, and at the end of the game, I was surprised to find out he had 25 pts and 11 assists. I didn't remember him scoring that much, or assisting that much. But he did! Because he did it within the flow of the game.
Now you can argue that IT has to make an immediate impact because he comes off the bench. That might fly if he had played differently when he started. But he didn't. In theory, a PG should make everyone around him better. And I think its a cop out to say that he shouldn't because the players around him are incapable. If you keep everyone involved, their focus and energy will stay consistent. But if you battle on defense, grab a rebound and pass it to your PG, who then flies down the court and stops and pops for a three, misses, and now your running back the other way, you start to wonder if your sole purpose is help you PG score. I've been there and done that. Self motivation only lasts so long in the face of selfishness. At least let me touch the damm ball before you shoot it.
Its either a team sport or its not. A team is five guys working together to beat the other team. Not four guys working together to help fill the stat line of one player. I love Thomas! He's supremely talented. But he gets in his own way. The decision he needs to make, is does he want to be remembered as a player like Chris Paul, or a player like Nate Robinson, who by the way is someone he emulates. His destiny is staring him in the face. The main question is, how does he visualize himself. That might decide his future in the league.
Now you can argue that IT has to make an immediate impact because he comes off the bench. That might fly if he had played differently when he started. But he didn't. In theory, a PG should make everyone around him better. And I think its a cop out to say that he shouldn't because the players around him are incapable. If you keep everyone involved, their focus and energy will stay consistent. But if you battle on defense, grab a rebound and pass it to your PG, who then flies down the court and stops and pops for a three, misses, and now your running back the other way, you start to wonder if your sole purpose is help you PG score. I've been there and done that. Self motivation only lasts so long in the face of selfishness. At least let me touch the damm ball before you shoot it.
Its either a team sport or its not. A team is five guys working together to beat the other team. Not four guys working together to help fill the stat line of one player. I love Thomas! He's supremely talented. But he gets in his own way. The decision he needs to make, is does he want to be remembered as a player like Chris Paul, or a player like Nate Robinson, who by the way is someone he emulates. His destiny is staring him in the face. The main question is, how does he visualize himself. That might decide his future in the league.