[Game] 21/82: Kings vs. Grizzlies 30 NOV 2025, 6pm PT/9pm ET

[Shaqfuey]

And his status as a former All-Star has ****-all to do with the criticism of him, is the point. Zach LaVine is a lazy defender and a liability on offense when his shot isn't going in, and his status as a former All-Star doesn't make that untrue. Hell, Bradley Beal is also a former All-Star that made a lot of money, as was Kemba Walker. Do you go up for all the overpaid bums in the league, or just the ones that have Kings jerseys on?

This is my sole argument - he’s a bad defender, not a lazy one. I believe he’s trying and giving effort. Unfortunately, that effort isn’t paying the dividends we want to see. My main point is too many whine on here. The blame game is pointless and tiring. Nobody really cares what any of us think. The org will do what it’s gonna do.

As for directly answering your question, I don’t care about Bradley Beal or Kemba Walker. They mean nothing to me because they are not on my team. But their career trajectory had nothing to do with lack of effort. It mostly had to do with injuries. So your attempt at making a point falls short.

I’ll stop this argument. All can believe I’m wrong. I really don’t care enough to waste my time on this topic. It’s pointless.

 

[TheMobb]

My philosophy is that if you are costing your team easy baskets because of your terrible defense (whether that is due to laziness, disinterest, injury, or otherwise) then you are the problem. LaVine finds himself in losing situations because he gives up as much as he gets. That makes him an empty stats guy in my eyes. Is he elite on offense? Well, if that were the case he'd be getting 30+ points every night or 10+ assists regardless of who his teammates are. Guys like Luka do that. Harden used to do that. KD has done that. These are guys who don't just get their points -- they also demand so much defensive attention that it opens up easy baskets for everyone else. LaVine has had every opportunity to be the alpha-omega of the offense on this squad and he is not it.

Is he a plus-offensive weapon as you say? Sure, I can concede that but then is he enough of a plus to make up for the defense? I really don't think so. Enough that you can afford to structure your roster around his limitations? Well, Minnesota and Chicago tried it and both gave up on him so that should tell you something. You've now softened your argument to such an extent that I can't exactly disagree -- he is not a piece to build around, he is not a defensive player, and he should be traded. I just take it one more step and say that he should be traded because we're not going to win with him on the team. Even if he made half as much money per year as he makes now we're not going to win with him and that's not because of poor coaching it's because he is a net negative every time he's on the floor.

If the expectation is for Zach to be a 1st option like Luka, KD, prime Harden he will never live up to that because he’s not at the level of those players. What he can be as a high level 2nd or 3rd option to one of those guys. I think the narrative on LaVine could change on the right team, maybe in GSW system, or on the Nuggets next to Jokic or Bucks next to Giannis. It’s not here with this current roster though.

 

[TheMobb]

This is my sole argument - he’s a bad defender, not a lazy one. I believe he’s trying and giving effort. Unfortunately, that effort isn’t paying the dividends we want to see. My main point is too many whine on here. The blame game is pointless and tiring. Nobody really cares what any of us think. The org will do what it’s gonna do.

As for directly answering your question, I don’t care about Bradley Beal or Kemba Walker. They mean nothing to me because they are not on my team. But their career trajectory had nothing to do with lack of effort. It mostly had to do with injuries. So your attempt at making a point falls short.

I’ll stop this argument. All can believe I’m wrong. I really don’t care enough to waste my time on this topic. It’s pointless.

I agree with this. I honestly don’t believe Zach is being lazy or not trying. He doesn’t process what’s going on fast enough to be in the right places and execute the gameplan. Some guys have it, LaVine doesn’t and will never get it because he’s just not capable to process and react fast enough on the defensive end.

 

[The_Jamal]

Are you suggesting that if Ranadive and Perry wanted Ellis, Clifford, and Carter to be playing every game, that they wouldn't be? I'm not ready to conclude that Christie is a complete idiot who has no basketball iQ or vision moving forward. If things remain the same after one or both of DeRozan and Lavine are moved, then I'll go there. Until then, I maintain that the driving force is managing contracts in preparation for trades.

Keeping in mind that Ranadive/Perry are the ones who signed Shroder and then also decided to sign Westbrook

So, if we're making the assumption that Doug has no control over his lineup decisions now, and is being forced to play the vets for maximum minutes, why do we think that will change when the vets get traded? Wouldn't Vivek/Perry still be dictating his moves?

People have to pick a lane. Either Perry/Vivek are controlling the lineup decisions while Doug is HC, or they aren't. People can't switch up if Christie starts to find success down the line and they're just giving him an out now because we like Doug as a Kings legend and we currently suck with sketchy coaching decisions

 

[Padrino]

So, if we're making the assumption that Doug has no control over his lineup decisions now, and is being forced to play the vets for maximum minutes, why do we think that will change when the vets get traded? Wouldn't Vivek/Perry still be dictating his moves?

People have to pick a lane. Either Perry/Vivek are controlling the lineup decisions while Doug is HC, or they aren't. People can't switch up if Christie starts to find success down the line and they're just giving him an out now because we like Doug as a Kings legend and we currently suck with sketchy coaching decisions

To a certain degree, there is likely a conversation that's happening between the front office and the coaching staff regarding the way the roster is going to be deployed throughout the season. But I'm guessing Christie is generally in charge of the lineup decisions, and the early returns are not particularly encouraging. I would certainly never claim that a first-time head coach can't learn or grow or evolve as they settle into the job, but I do question whether or not Doug Christie would be given another head coaching opportunity outside of Sacramento. His was not a name I'd ever seen anywhere in conversations about up-and-coming assistants, and I just don't think he's on anybody else's radar.

There's nothing especially novel or innovative about Christie's approach to the offensive or defensive side of the ball. There's nothing I've witnessed in his sideline demeanor that suggests a leader that his players believe in. There's currently no evidence that he's a developmentally-conscious head coach. There's just nothing noteworthy about him at all in this particular role, except that he once played for a Kings team that is fondly-remembered by Kings fans but is largely a footnote of the early-aughts in the minds of NBA insiders. Sink or swim, the Kings might be Christie's only chance at the big chair, and if it's a role he wants to keep, he's going to have to summon considerably more than a bunch of press conference indignation.

As for Vivek, I personally do not think he is much involved in the day-to-day operations of the team. And I honestly don't believe he's much involved in the regular front office decision-making in a given season or off-season, either. However, I do think that Vivek gets antsy from time to time, and makes big, impulsive decisions that have long-lasting and far-reaching consequences for the health of the organization and the success of the team. It's difficult to know precisely what his imprint on the operation of the franchise has been, but the reporting and rumor-mongering suggests an owner who stays hands-off until he doesn't want to be hands-off anymore, and at that point he's just going to get what he wants.

Once De'Aaron Fox demanded a trade, it seems rather plausible to me that Vivek said, "Okay fine, he wants out, so go get me Zach LaVine." In that moment, the future was set; the Beam Team was over, and the fallout was always likely to be catastrophic and would result in either a half-decade or more of foolishly plodding around in No Man's Land or a wholesale reset of the roster. Many of us at KF.com know which we'd prefer, and we'll see if Scott Perry is empowered to make it happen.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

I think there is some nudge to play guys who are on the block and/or make the most $$$ x number of minutes.

Beyond that it's Doug choosing how it is allocated.

I agree with Padrino (although not sure Zach was Vivek's first choice but he was probably the only "star" available) that to whatever extent Vivek inserts himself its only at the highest levels. I don't think beyond maybe the 2-3 highest paid guys on the team he cares as long as folks earn their pay. That's why I am critical of Monte and Brown for failing to build around Fox/Domas/Keegan as a core. I can't imagine for any reason that Vivek called the shots on players 6-15 on the depth chart.

All that said, the Keon situation makes absolutely no sense.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

So, if we're making the assumption that Doug has no control over his lineup decisions now, and is being forced to play the vets for maximum minutes, why do we think that will change when the vets get traded? Wouldn't Vivek/Perry still be dictating his moves?

People have to pick a lane. Either Perry/Vivek are controlling the lineup decisions while Doug is HC, or they aren't. People can't switch up if Christie starts to find success down the line and they're just giving him an out now because we like Doug as a Kings legend and we currently suck with sketchy coaching decisions

My evaluation would be the same if it were Kenny Natt, Dave Joerger, or Michael Malone. Joerger and Malone were fired because they didn't toe the company line and would speak out if they strongly disagreed with what was going on. Christie is one of, if not the lowest paid head coach in the league. He has very little power to do whatever he wants and he knows this is his only chance at a head coaching job. He isn't one of the known coaching names who can get consideration around the league or with New York for example, like Mike Brown did.

As I've stated before, playing time is mostly dictated by how much they are paid. ("managing contracts"). Seems obvious, but sometimes we forget to factor that in. So even if Christie wanted to play Keon Ellis more than Shroder (Perry's choice), he would have a hard time doing it. If Keon were to be signed to a larger contract, then his role and playing time would drastically change at that point. On the other hand, there is a chance that Max could play as much as or even more than Eubanks (minimal contract). Pretty easy to just follow the money with this organization.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

My evaluation would be the same if it were Kenny Natt, Dave Joerger, or Michael Malone. Joerger and Malone were fired because they didn't toe the company line and would speak out if they strongly disagreed with what was going on. Christie is one of, if not the lowest paid head coach in the league. He has very little power to do whatever he wants and he knows this is his only chance at a head coaching job. He isn't one of the known coaching names who can get consideration around the league or with New York for example, like Mike Brown did.

As I've stated before, playing time is mostly dictated by how much they are paid. ("managing contracts"). Seems obvious, but sometimes we forget to factor that in. So even if Christie wanted to play Keon Ellis more than Shroder (Perry's choice), he would have a hard time doing it. If Keon were to be signed to a larger contract, then his role and playing time would drastically change at that point. On the other hand, there is a chance that Max could play as much as or even more than Eubanks (minimal contract). Pretty easy to just follow the money with this organization.

Malone was fired almost strictly because the GM they hired after him didn't like him, didn't want him, and executed a campaign to undermine him at every corner. That GM is a proven idiot.

Joerger was fired because he refused to play the team's prized draft pick and got in a feud with the shadow GM over it with both transparently leaking to the local media in a way I don't think we've seen before or since no matter who ran this organization, poisoning the well with the player and his very vocal father in the process. Brandon Williams is a proven idiot, but there has to be something wrong with Joerger because he was also fired from Memphis and after Sacramento he has not gotten another head coaching shot. He arguably overachieved with both teams during his tenure. While this could simply come down to "toeing the company line" there has to be more as a competent organization in the personnel department would seemingly want a coach who always gets results with his rosters.

I agree with virtually all the rest.

 

[gunks]

Man the Kings are literally playing and treating Clifford like he's Chris Duartes replacement

He looked great as lead guard in SL too. Obviously the NBA is a different animal, but it would be fun to see him get PG minutes after we (hopefully) clear out the vets. It's not like we should really be trying to win this year anyways.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

Malone was fired almost strictly because the GM they hired after him didn't like him, didn't want him, and executed a campaign to undermine him at every corner. That GM is a proven idiot.

Joerger was fired because he refused to play the team's prized draft pick and got in a feud with the shadow GM over it with both transparently leaking to the local media in a way I don't think we've seen before or since no matter who ran this organization, poisoning the well with the player and his very vocal father in the process. Brandon Williams is a proven idiot, but there has to be something wrong with Joerger because he was also fired from Memphis and after Sacramento he has not gotten another head coaching shot. He arguably overachieved with both teams during his tenure. While this could simply come down to "toeing the company line" there has to be more as a competent organization in the personnel department would seemingly want a coach who always gets results with his rosters.

I agree with virtually all the rest.

Christie doesn't want to become the next coach who the GM doesn't like,....or the next one who doesn't play the team's "prized" or priority assets. After all, he wasn't even chosen by Perry.

 

[The_Jamal]

To a certain degree, there is likely a conversation that's happening between the front office and the coaching staff regarding the way the roster is going to be deployed throughout the season. But I'm guessing Christie is generally in charge of the lineup decisions, and the early returns are not particularly encouraging. I would certainly never claim that a first-time head coach can't learn or grow or evolve as they settle into the job, but I do question whether or not Doug Christie would be given another head coaching opportunity outside of Sacramento. His was not a name I'd ever seen anywhere in conversations about up-and-coming assistants, and I just don't think he's on anybody else's radar.

There's nothing especially novel or innovative about Christie's approach to the offensive or defensive side of the ball. There's nothing I've witnessed in his sideline demeanor that suggests a leader that his players believe in. There's currently no evidence that he's a developmentally-conscious head coach. There's just nothing noteworthy about him at all in this particular role, except that he once played for a Kings team that is fondly-remembered by Kings fans but is largely a footnote of the early-aughts in the minds of NBA insiders. Sink or swim, the Kings might be Christie's only chance at the big chair, and if it's a role he wants to keep, he's going to have to summon considerably more than a bunch of press conference indignation.

As for Vivek, I personally do not think he is much involved in the day-to-day operations of the team. And I honestly don't believe he's much involved in the regular front office decision-making in a given season or off-season, either. However, I do think that Vivek gets antsy from time to time, and makes big, impulsive decisions that have long-lasting and far-reaching consequences for the health of the organization and the success of the team. It's difficult to know precisely what his imprint on the operation of the franchise has been, but the reporting and rumor-mongering suggests an owner who stays hands-off until he doesn't want to be hands-off anymore, and at that point he's just going to get what he wants.

Once De'Aaron Fox demanded a trade, it seems rather plausible to me that Vivek said, "Okay fine, he wants out, so go get me Zach LaVine." In that moment, the future was set; the Beam Team was over, and the fallout was always likely to be catastrophic and would result in either a half-decade or more of foolishly plodding around in No Man's Land or a wholesale reset of the roster. Many of us at KF.com know which we'd prefer, and we'll see if Scott Perry is empowered to make it happen.

Of course. The gm and coach have to be on the same page if theres anything hope of cohesion and a successful franchise. I just sincerely doubt that Doug secretly wants to play Keon 30 MPG and is ONLY being held back because Perry only wants his guys playing. To me, thats giving Doug a tremendous cop out of any responsibility from whats going on.

Again, I'm not suggesting we never play the vets again and Carter/Keon/Nique are all 35+ MPG, right now. But its patently ridiculous they dont have real consistent roles for a team thats 5-16 and is one of the worst defensive squads in basketball. Find the minutes to get them 15-20 every single game. Be fine with the vets, like what should have happened in the MEM game, not getting a full 35+ minutes

 

[iowamcnabb]

Of course. The gm and coach have to be on the same page if theres anything hope of cohesion and a successful franchise. I just sincerely doubt that Doug secretly wants to play Keon 30 MPG and is ONLY being held back because Perry only wants his guys playing. To me, thats giving Doug a tremendous cop out of any responsibility from whats going on.

Again, I'm not suggesting we never play the vets again and Carter/Keon/Nique are all 35+ MPG, right now. But its patently ridiculous they dont have real consistent roles for a team thats 5-16 and is one of the worst defensive squads in basketball. Find the minutes to get them 15-20 every single game. Be fine with the vets, like what should have happened in the MEM game, not getting a full 35+ minutes

A team doing thiis pretty well would be the Wiz. They are still starting their vets but Cj and Kris are averaging 29 and 25 minutes respectively.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

Of course. The gm and coach have to be on the same page if theres anything hope of cohesion and a successful franchise. I just sincerely doubt that Doug secretly wants to play Keon 30 MPG and is ONLY being held back because Perry only wants his guys playing. To me, thats giving Doug a tremendous cop out of any responsibility from whats going on.

Again, I'm not suggesting we never play the vets again and Carter/Keon/Nique are all 35+ MPG, right now. But its patently ridiculous they dont have real consistent roles for a team thats 5-16 and is one of the worst defensive squads in basketball

Is your evaluation at this point that Christie is an idiot head coach and there is nothing else going on? Was McNair an idiot GM for signing DeRozan and trading for Lavine,....or was something else going on there?

 

[pdxKingsFan]

Christie doesn't want to become the next coach who the GM doesn't like,....or the next one who doesn't play the team's "prized" or priority assets. After all, he wasn't even chosen by Perry.

Any coach's job is to do what the organization puts before them. Christie can look at what Chauncey did in Portland (minus the FBI investigation) as how to win a second contract. Incidentally Chauncey did not come in under rebuild orders but pivoted to that once Dame made his demand public. I imagine everyone including Vivek knows we can't win with this roster as of today.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

Any coach's job is to do what the organization puts before them. Christie can look at what Chauncey did in Portland (minus the FBI investigation) as how to win a second contract. Incidentally Chauncey did not come in under rebuild orders but pivoted to that once Dame made his demand public. I imagine everyone including Vivek knows we can't win with this roster as of today.

That's right...and I believe that Christie is doing exactly what this organization has put before him. If they had laid out a plan for him to prioritize the development of the younger players with more playing time for the first ~20-30 games of the season....and he was refusing to do it, then I believe he would be fired.

On the other hand, if he was following the organization's direction for a "gap year", then he would have a good chance to continue on as head coach in the one place in the NBA where he has that chance, even with a horrible record for this season.

 

[gunks]

I think we need to hold off on judging Christie until after the trade deadline.

Nobody is going to trade for a vet that can't get off the bench for the 5 win Kings. You have to hope that Deebo, Domas and Zach will put up good enough stats with enough minutes that some GMs out there will think "hmm, I bet if we get them out of that dumpster fire in Sac, they'll be great for us!*"

If we can ditch the vets and roll out the youth post deadline, we can see how Christie does as a culture and development guy.


*ok, nobody is going to think that about Zach Lavine, but he's a great tank commander so it's fine if we're stuck with him another season

 

[pdxKingsFan]

*ok, nobody is going to think that about Zach Lavine, but he's a great tank commander so it's fine if we're stuck with him another season

I imagine teams will call and ask to talk to him/his agent and see if he'd drop his option in exchange for 2-3 more years at a lower rate/more overall. Maybe they'd want to play for a winner/get out of Sac enough to say yes?

I'm not sure if KLUTCH clients have a history of doing this though? But the flip side of this is Zach is killing any value he may have on a future contract by his effort right now.

The good news is that worst case is he expires after next year. There are guys on similar deals that are highly sus with 3-4 years left.

 

[The_Jamal]

Is your evaluation at this point that Christie is an idiot head coach and there is nothing else going on? Was McNair an idiot GM for signing DeRozan and trading for Lavine,....or was something else going on there?

I've talked about this before. I don't think McNair was in control of the team over the past year... as evidenced by De'Aaron Fox being traded and then he was fired 2 months later. Would Vivek really let McNair make that call, trust him on the Fox haul... only to give up on him 20 games later? How does that make any sense? What's more plausible; Vivek controlled the Fox deal, or McNair did and then his boss gives up on the new direction after 20 games? I also think with how Perry was hired 12 hours later... pretty safe to say this has been in the works for awhile and McNair was just a lame-duck last season. Had McNair not been fired, then we could safely assume that he was responsible for the LaVine trade

Deebo was also a staunch philosophical difference from the type of player McNair brought in during his tenure here. Even back to his HOU days. So did he just throw his principles out the window? Or was he under orders to make a "splash" with DDR? This one I'm less sure on since I feel like Deebo was more of a talent grab to shake up the roster, but wouldn't be surprised if Vivek was the engine behind that move too.

Looking back McNair's big miss was running back Beam team 1.0 in that 2nd year and not finding a way to improve. He built an excellent roster, but instead of finding a way to build off that momentum, we ran back the same top 8 and tried to get by with improvements on the fringes. In hindsight, unless you're an OKC level organization, you can't just be content with the same roster year over year while everyone else improves.


I also think Perry is a probably a bad GM too, to be fair. He's made 1 good move (trading up for Nique) and the rest has been... poor. We'll see how he tears this thing down, but my current eval on the Kings power structure is poor across the board. Not just Doug

 

[pdxKingsFan]

I've talked about this before. I don't think McNair was in control of the team over the past year... as evidenced by De'Aaron Fox being traded and then he was fired 2 months later. Would Vivek really let McNair make that call, trust him on the Fox haul... only to give up on him 20 games later? How does that make any sense? What's more plausible; Vivek controlled the Fox deal, or McNair did and then his boss gives up on the new direction after 20 games? I also think with how Perry was hired 12 hours later... pretty safe to say this has been in the works for awhile and McNair was just a lame-duck last season. Had McNair not been fired, then we could safely assume that he was responsible for the LaVine trade

Deebo was also a staunch philosophical difference from the type of player McNair brought in during his tenure here. Even back to his HOU days. So did he just throw his principles out the window? Or was he under orders to make a "splash" with DDR? This one I'm less sure on since I feel like Deebo was more of a talent grab to shake up the roster, but wouldn't be surprised if Vivek was the engine behind that move too.

Looking back McNair's big miss was running back Beam team 1.0 in that 2nd year and not finding a way to improve. He built an excellent roster, but instead of finding a way to build off that momentum, we ran back the same top 8 and tried to get by with improvements on the fringes. In hindsight, unless you're an OKC level organization, you can't just be content with the same roster year over year while everyone else improves.


I also think Perry is a probably a bad GM too, to be fair. He's made 1 good move (trading up for Nique) and the rest has been... poor. We'll see how he tears this thing down, but my current eval on the Kings power structure is poor across the board. Not just Doug

Vivek could have said "I want a star" and it could have even specifically been LaVine (who was the only one on the market really) but almost everything else had to be Monte. I doubt Vivek brought in JV or LaRavia or even Fultz. I am sure that the day Vivek decided to fire Brown he knew that Fox and Monte were also no longer part of the future. I do not know if he expected that he'd have to act on Fox before Monte though.

 

[Sherds]

I've talked about this before. I don't think McNair was in control of the team over the past year... as evidenced by De'Aaron Fox being traded and then he was fired 2 months later. Would Vivek really let McNair make that call, trust him on the Fox haul... only to give up on him 20 games later? How does that make any sense? What's more plausible; Vivek controlled the Fox deal, or McNair did and then his boss gives up on the new direction after 20 games? I also think with how Perry was hired 12 hours later... pretty safe to say this has been in the works for awhile and McNair was just a lame-duck last season. Had McNair not been fired, then we could safely assume that he was responsible for the LaVine trade

Deebo was also a staunch philosophical difference from the type of player McNair brought in during his tenure here. Even back to his HOU days. So did he just throw his principles out the window? Or was he under orders to make a "splash" with DDR? This one I'm less sure on since I feel like Deebo was more of a talent grab to shake up the roster, but wouldn't be surprised if Vivek was the engine behind that move too.

Looking back McNair's big miss was running back Beam team 1.0 in that 2nd year and not finding a way to improve. He built an excellent roster, but instead of finding a way to build off that momentum, we ran back the same top 8 and tried to get by with improvements on the fringes. In hindsight, unless you're an OKC level organization, you can't just be content with the same roster year over year while everyone else improves.


I also think Perry is a probably a bad GM too, to be fair. He's made 1 good move (trading up for Nique) and the rest has been... poor. We'll see how he tears this thing down, but my current eval on the Kings power structure is poor across the board. Not just Doug

I also think prior to Beam Team 1.0, the 2021 Draft was a BIG miss for McNair.

While Davion has become a servicable role player/low end starter... We already had Fox and Hali trying to find their rhythm together and adding another high draft pick at the same position wasnt smart...In hindsight, taking a Sengun (who I wanted), Jalen Johnson, Murphy III would have led to a much more balanced team even if you did decide later to move away from Hali.

I fear history repeating itself with Carter, I didn't like the idea of adding another small guard at the time... I hoped we had drafted someone that would eventually lead to extra size/ length next to Keegan and Barnes to the bench.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

I've talked about this before. I don't think McNair was in control of the team over the past year... as evidenced by De'Aaron Fox being traded and then he was fired 2 months later. Would Vivek really let McNair make that call, trust him on the Fox haul... only to give up on him 20 games later? How does that make any sense? What's more plausible; Vivek controlled the Fox deal, or McNair did and then his boss gives up on the new direction after 20 games? I also think with how Perry was hired 12 hours later... pretty safe to say this has been in the works for awhile and McNair was just a lame-duck last season. Had McNair not been fired, then we could safely assume that he was responsible for the LaVine trade

Deebo was also a staunch philosophical difference from the type of player McNair brought in during his tenure here. Even back to his HOU days. So did he just throw his principles out the window? Or was he under orders to make a "splash" with DDR? This one I'm less sure on since I feel like Deebo was more of a talent grab to shake up the roster, but wouldn't be surprised if Vivek was the engine behind that move too.

Looking back McNair's big miss was running back Beam team 1.0 in that 2nd year and not finding a way to improve. He built an excellent roster, but instead of finding a way to build off that momentum, we ran back the same top 8 and tried to get by with improvements on the fringes. In hindsight, unless you're an OKC level organization, you can't just be content with the same roster year over year while everyone else improves.


I also think Perry is a probably a bad GM too, to be fair. He's made 1 good move (trading up for Nique) and the rest has been... poor. We'll see how he tears this thing down, but my current eval on the Kings power structure is poor across the board. Not just Doug

So we're on the same page here, in that McNair wasn't in full control of the team,.....but we're not in agreement that Christie is currently not in full control of how the players (assets) are actually used? I'm not understanding your reasoning on this

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

I also think prior to Beam Team 1.0, the 2021 Draft was a BIG miss for McNair.

While Davion has become a servicable role player/low end starter... We already had Fox and Hali trying to find their rhythm together and adding another high draft pick at the same position wasnt smart...In hindsight, taking a Sengun (who I wanted), Jalen Johnson, Murphy III would have led to a much more balanced team even if you did decide later to move away from Hali.

I fear history repeating itself with Carter, I didn't like the idea of adding another small guard at the time... I hoped we had drafted someone that would eventually lead to extra size/ length next to Keegan and Barnes to the bench.

I believe he was one of the group with the philosophy of take who you believe is the best player available, regardless of fit or position. Now Mitchell is starting pg for Miami, so he was an asset that never got the chance to really show his value. He would have ended up starting pg for the Kings, had they kept him for the length of his rookie contract.

The bigger mistake was signing Vesenkov and not really being committed to playing him, which then led to giving up Mitchell and him to be able to sign DeRozan

 

[pdxKingsFan]

I believe he was one of the group with the philosophy of take who you believe is the best player available, regardless of fit or position. Now Mitchell is starting pg for Miami, so he was an asset that never got the chance to really show his value. He would have ended up starting pg for the Kings, had they kept him for the length of his rookie contract.

The bigger mistake was signing Vesenkov and not really being committed to playing him, which then led to giving up Mitchell and him to be able to sign DeRozan

The weird thing with Sasha is Brown was involved in his recruitment and signing. I know he was Monte's move before Brown got here, but Brown did plenty of things that make no sense. Mitchell too, who was effective in the Dubs series until suddenly he is benched at the most pivotal time in Game 7 when his 1:1 defense could have been the difference.

I wonder how Knicks fans are doing with Brown. Not record wise, but rotation wise. Do they have hidden gems that are buried under Brown, or is he distributing minutes better in their eyes than Thibs did. They're 13-6 now, in second place so after a rough start they seem to be rolling.

 

[hrdboild]

I believe he was one of the group with the philosophy of take who you believe is the best player available, regardless of fit or position. Now Mitchell is starting pg for Miami, so he was an asset that never got the chance to really show his value. He would have ended up starting pg for the Kings, had they kept him for the length of his rookie contract.

The bigger mistake was signing Vesenkov and not really being committed to playing him, which then led to giving up Mitchell and him to be able to sign DeRozan

The Sasha Vezenkov situation was definitely a big miss. Coming off that 7 game playoff series against Golden State, his was the only big contract handed out that summer and Mike Brown never put him fully into the rotation. That was probably where the McNair/Brown partnership started to fall apart.

And there seems to be quite a bit of selective memory going on with Monte's first round draft picks.

2020: Even in retrospect, Tyrese Haliburton was clearly the best player on the board in 2020 at the 12th pick and the only other players who are even close (Maxey, Quickley, Bane) are also guards.

2021: This was a pretty wide open field at #9 and while Moody, Johnson, Sengun, Murphy, and even Herb Jones had supporters here, none of them was an obvious pick over Davion Mitchell. We did not need another PG at that time but I thought that Mitchell was the most impactful defensive player that I saw in that draft and his defense has been as advertised. For the past two seasons he's been a 40% three point shooter, a steady lead guard who doesn't turn the ball over (he's got a 5:1 assist to turnover ration this season) and remains one of the best guards in the league at stopping dribble penetration. The only problem here is that he was a poor fit for that roster and McNair went all-in on building around Fox who ultimately was not all-in on him.

2022: There are only 4 guys who could maybe have a case for being better picks at #4 than Keegan Murray so far (based on Win Shares or WS/48) and that's Jalen Williams, Jalen Duren, Mark Williams, and Walker Kessler. I don't remember any of them being heavily in play for our pick. Not quite as clear cut as the Haliburton pick since we've had less time for these players to mature, but I'm happy we got Keegan here.

2023: With the Kings finishing 3rd in the West this season, the pick was #24 and while trading out of the first round was disappointing at the time, so far it looks like Monte made the right call there.

2024: This is tough. There are other guys I wanted here more than Devin Carter (Yves Missi, DaRon Holmes, or Ryan Dunn would have been better fits and I liked the upside gamble on Collier) but we know that McNair had a Best Player Available strategy and if Carter wasn't the consensus pick there he was very close to it. It's just a shame he's barely gotten an opportunity to play with the shoulder injury and subsequent roster machinations crowding him out.

That was all 5 of the drafts McNair was in charge for and there are no big misses in any of them. You can only control what you can control so Kuminga, Giddey, and Wagner going #6, #7, and #8 ahead of Davion in 2021 is not McNair's fault. I appreciate that he quite often targeted defensive role-players with his second round picks and UDFA's which led to uncovering serviceable NBA rotation players like Keon Ellis and Neemias Queta. And to call those Mitchell and Carter picks misses in retrospect is to argue for fit over best player available which is a whole other discussion that we've already had and will continue to have -- I think it's a tough position to argue for when talking about late lottery picks given how many of the players taken in the late lottery and later end up being out of the league or close to it by the end of their first contract.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

The weird thing with Sasha is Brown was involved in his recruitment and signing. I know he was Monte's move before Brown got here, but Brown did plenty of things that make no sense. Mitchell too, who was effective in the Dubs series until suddenly he is benched at the most pivotal time in Game 7 when his 1:1 defense could have been the difference.

I wonder how Knicks fans are doing with Brown. Not record wise, but rotation wise. Do they have hidden gems that are buried under Brown, or is he distributing minutes better in their eyes than Thibs did. They're 13-6 now, in second place so after a rough start they seem to be rolling.

It's always tough evaluating an established Euro player and translating how effective they will be against NBA talent. Always some sort of risk there.

If I recall, Mitchell didn't play much in game 6 either, with the team coming off 3 losses in a row. Brown went with Davis who played well in that big win, so he went with him again for game 7

 

[pdxKingsFan]

It's always tough evaluating an established Euro player and translating how effective they will be against NBA talent. Always some sort of risk there.

If I recall, Mitchell didn't play much in game 6 either, with the team coming off 3 losses in a row. Brown went with Davis who played well in that big win, so he went with him again for game 7

I can't recall everything with Davion, I know that Davis provided an offensive spark but maybe Davion had Steph on lock for the first half then he went to Davis and Steph wound up dropping 50+ on us?

just one of the worst sports days of my recent life since the Bruins coming off a record setting NHL campaign also dropped game 7 in the first round that afternoon.

With Sasha it seemed Brown was just too slow/cautious as by the holidays it seemed like he was actually showing himself to be an NBA player then he promptly got hurt and that was that. Pretty obvious he had regrets about coming over and felt lied to by that point too.

 

[The_Jamal]

So we're on the same page here, in that McNair wasn't in full control of the team,.....but we're not in agreement that Christie is currently not in full control of how the players (assets) are actually used? I'm not understanding your reasoning on this

Because McNair getting fired is the "proof" he probably wasnt in control of very much. Its hard to make the leap that Vivek let a GM handle the trade of the franchises most important asset without input... only to fire him 20 games later.

How do you apply that to Doug? So are we just going forward that Doug isn't in control of any of the lineup decisions? If not, when do we think he'll get to make calls? We are at roughly 72 games with him as interim HC and full HC. Are you saying we can't judge anything he's put on paper? If not, when?

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

Because McNair getting fired is the "proof" he probably wasnt in control of very much. Its hard to make the leap that Vivek let a GM handle the trade of the franchises most important asset without input... only to fire him 20 games later.

How do you apply that to Doug? So are we just going forward that Doug isn't in control of any of the lineup decisions? If not, when do we think he'll get to make calls? We are at roughly 72 games with him as interim HC and full HC. Are you saying we can't judge anything he's put on paper? If not, when?

I believe that Ranadive let the trade happen when it did, because he wanted Lavine right then and there. He's a terrible owner, we all know that,....so I don't think that "leap" is difficult at all. He had his new head coach in place, again, before he hired the new GM. Would be interesting to know if he had heard Perry's evaluation of Lavine before the trade happened.

After this "gap year" is when Christie will be on the clock for me. Doesn't mean I'll then think that he has full control of everything that goes on with playing time. The power and politics will always be there with this situation. There are real reasons that some qualified coaches and GM's would never take a job with Ranadive

 

[SacTownKid]

I also think prior to Beam Team 1.0, the 2021 Draft was a BIG miss for McNair.

While Davion has become a servicable role player/low end starter... We already had Fox and Hali trying to find their rhythm together and adding another high draft pick at the same position wasnt smart...In hindsight, taking a Sengun (who I wanted), Jalen Johnson, Murphy III would have led to a much more balanced team even if you did decide later to move away from Hali.

I fear history repeating itself with Carter, I didn't like the idea of adding another small guard at the time... I hoped we had drafted someone that would eventually lead to extra size/ length next to Keegan and Barnes to the bench.

The most ridiculous thing about all this is history isn't repeating itself because it's never been this STUPID. Carter is getting pushed for a 32 year old Schroder and a 37 year old Westbrook. Not a Fox or Hali. AND they're not even winning. Dumbest franchise ever.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

The most ridiculous thing about all this is history isn't repeating itself because it's never been this STUPID. Carter is getting pushed for a 32 year old Schroder and a 37 year old Westbrook. Not a Fox or Hali. AND they're not even winning. Dumbest franchise ever.

and Christie wasn't in charge of signing them.