I mean you passed up on a future HOF and 2 guys who might get there in Trae and JJJ. Nothing is worse than the Bagley pick.
[Game] [01/82] Kings @ Suns, 10/22/2025 7pm Pacific 10pm Eastern
- Thread starter Tetsujin
- Start date
I mean you passed up on a future HOF and 2 guys who might get there in Trae and JJJ. Nothing is worse than the Bagley pick.
Padrino
All-Star
Yeah, this kind of revisionist history is so so silly. I don't even like Luka. I can't imagine he's easy to root for. But that's beside the point. The guy is a future hall of famer, an absolutely relentless offensive wunderkind who can bend entire defenses until the break without really breaking a sweat himself. The Bagley pick remains an unmitigated disasterpiece of franchise self-sabotage, given how few bites at the superstar apple the Kings have had in their entire Sacramento-era existence. Trading Fox for LaVine was... bad. Stupid. Short-sighted. Even crippling in the near-term. But it's not the kind of move that stains an organization for a decade or more.
Padrino
All-Star
I mean, every fanbase has its eternal optimists who root for every win regardless of context. But if the Kings are as bad by mid-December as I think they might be (I'm predicting something on the order of a 7-18 start to the season), nobody is going to be thrilled to root for the likes of DeMar DeRozan, Dennis Schroder, and Russell Westbrook. Even those who root for wins in the midst of a lost season will be calling for the younger guys to get run over the vets who can't get it done.
Considering Keegan is likely out a majority of this stretch, 7 wins seems extremely unlikely.
Last night should be pretty eye opening. We just aren't going to shoot as well as we did in the 1H very often, and the defense isn't going to allow less than 120 very often.
Last edited:
Padrino
All-Star
Yeah, my prediction does account for his absence. I'm mostly assuming that, mismatched and defense-averse as this roster is, it's still composed of veteran professional basketball players who are going to take the lion's share of the minutes. The Kings have a bunch of scorers who can all explode for 30 when the mood strikes them. They will have hot shooting nights. They'll win a few they should win. They'll win a few they shouldn't. That's just life in the NBA. But 7-18 isn't exactly a record they could recover from after 25 games. It's a .28 win percentage. If they held such a pace, they'd finish with 23 wins. I'm predicting they finish with 25-30 total this season, assuming reasonable health and minimal turnover. That total will likely decrease if they decide to engage in a proper rebuild and start selling off veterans so they can prioritize minutes for their younger players.
Personally, I'm hoping for worse than a 7-18 start. I want this thing to get calamitously bad. I want the product to get so ugly and so unwatchable that Vivek has no choice but to blow it all up. There's just so much folly built into this roster's construction, and the only way out is by hitting the reset button. Better to learn that before we even exit 2025 so the front office can start preparing accordingly for the trade deadline.
GWD
Bench
I had high expectations of a different approach from Coach Christie and his staff this year now that he is officially head coach. There didn't seem to be as much change as hoped. It still appears that management is steering the ship rather than allowing the coach unfettered freedom to be creative. But Christie does not have an overbearing or forceful personality from what is observed...so that is a factor.
The high paid vets get playing time while able, while lower paid, players get pushed aside. Even without Sabonis and Murry out, two high paid vets, the adjustments that were made favored the aforementioned money players. Cardwell is an exception out of necessity.
The high paid vets get playing time while able, while lower paid, players get pushed aside. Even without Sabonis and Murry out, two high paid vets, the adjustments that were made favored the aforementioned money players. Cardwell is an exception out of necessity.
Or to give this roster a chance to work, they'll never be willing to do (Keon 30+, Nique+Carter 25+ MPG) even with Domas and Keegan healthy. If Christie were willing to balance the lineups and actually added any dose of the defense, theres a 43+ win team here that could be a low-end playoff squad.
Not that I'm exactly hoping for that, but it's frustrating we aren't willing to maximize the roster for winning.
Padrino
All-Star
Yeah, it just confuses me to no end why they bothered with Schroder and Westbrook at all. Just... why?! Does Perry really see those additions as the route to the play-in? Was he trying to impress his boss? Was he just throwing his weight around haphazardly in his first off-season? I mean, what possible good can come from suppressing the minutes of the long-term talent on the roster in favor of over-the-hill veterans who won't be (or at least shouldn't be) here a year from now?
Even worse is the fact that the entire organization has been beating the defense drum since the off-season began, and this team's still going to finish with a bottom-tier defense because they refuse to commit to getting their best defenders on the floor together for extended minutes. It's so much talk and so little walk, and it poisons both Perry and Christie for me as supposed leaders of the Kings' future success.
Yeah, you can't preach all offseason that opposing teams will "feel us" and we'll be physical, pick up 94 feet, etc....
And we've buried the guys on the team capable of that. Its stupid and just lip service, which probably is incredibly effective on Vivek
sactowndog
Hall of Famer
Just repeating Car. Dave’s logic. I’m not sure getting such a limited return for your best player was not crippling for even the mid term.
sactowndog
Hall of Famer
My opinion (and opinion only) is Perry is doing whatever Vivek wants this year to let the whole thing crash to the ground.
Doug has always been a yes man so his playing Westbrook over Ellis is not a surprise. Doug was fully a Vivek coach.
twslam07
All-Star
I’m so disgusted by the fact that Ellis got 12 minutes and Carter was a DNP. What happens to those 12 mins when Westbrook gets back into game shape and when Murray is back healthy?
If we’re hell bent on playing all of these vets, I’d at least hope for a minutes rotation of…
PG - Schroder (24) / Westbrook (14) / Carter (10)
SG - Ellis (24) / Monk (24)
SF - LaVine (30) / Clifford (10) / DeRozan (8)
PF - Murray (30) / DeRozan (18)
C - Sabonis (34) / Eubanks (14)
Sabonis = 34 min
LaVine = 30 min
Murray = 30 min
DeRozan = 26 min
Schroder = 24 min
Ellis = 24 min
Monk = 24 min
Westbrook = 14 min
Eubanks = 14 min
Carter = 10 min
Clifford = 10 min
Still sucks giving only 24 min to Ellis and only 10 min to both Carter and Clifford but this is the situation we put ourselves in. At least I’d be able to look forward to the glimpses where our young guys play vs. watching a bunch of middling vets eat up all of the minutes.
No GM in their right mind would bring in all of these guards and bury their young talent. This feels like a Vivek-ism.
If we’re hell bent on playing all of these vets, I’d at least hope for a minutes rotation of…
PG - Schroder (24) / Westbrook (14) / Carter (10)
SG - Ellis (24) / Monk (24)
SF - LaVine (30) / Clifford (10) / DeRozan (8)
PF - Murray (30) / DeRozan (18)
C - Sabonis (34) / Eubanks (14)
Sabonis = 34 min
LaVine = 30 min
Murray = 30 min
DeRozan = 26 min
Schroder = 24 min
Ellis = 24 min
Monk = 24 min
Westbrook = 14 min
Eubanks = 14 min
Carter = 10 min
Clifford = 10 min
Still sucks giving only 24 min to Ellis and only 10 min to both Carter and Clifford but this is the situation we put ourselves in. At least I’d be able to look forward to the glimpses where our young guys play vs. watching a bunch of middling vets eat up all of the minutes.
No GM in their right mind would bring in all of these guards and bury their young talent. This feels like a Vivek-ism.
Caccia
Starter
One tactic that Mike Brown and now Doug Christie have failed to employ, and which would have been very effective last night, was to play the best defensive men when they had a 17 to 20-point lead. I kept expecting to see Carter when the lead began to shrink, but he never saw the court. And then, of course, Keon only saw 13 minutes of action. It's okay to have one of Monk or Schröder on the court with the defensive aces, to control the offense, but playing them both together is suicide.
I guess we can be thankful that none of the Kings was arrested today.
I tend to agree with this post. However, it was just the first game and I think Christie should have a little more rope before we go nuts. If the Kings would of won that game a lot of folks would of been talking differently. I think His willingness to play Cardwell down the stretch was a good answer to the Suns, but it wasn't enough.
BuddyBuckets
G-League
There's a very informative tweet above regarding this. In crunch time he was trash, go ahead and nitpick my wording lol.
He missed the rim 3 shots in a row in the 4th quarter. Dude pissed down his leg to end the game.
BuddyBuckets
G-League
1000% agree with this. When the Kings took Bagley, yes I wanted Luka, but I thought we got a 20/10 big next to Fox. When we traded for LaVine, there was no explanation other than Vivek is massively desperate to sell tickets.
Our only hope is this guy sells the team.
Kingster
Hall of Famer
Sacric accounted for 7 minutes, 28 seconds of playing time last night. Westbrook had 18 min, 48 seconds. It's all a waste of valuable time. Sarics's minutes should go to Maxime who at least has a shot at becoming a player, unlike Sacric. And Westbrook's minutes should be distributed among Ellis and Clifford. The absurd notion that Westbrook was somehow going to teach Clifford the point guard position was evident last night. If Clifford made the reckless goofs of Westbrook we would all be wondering whether we have a bust for our #1 pick. I hope the Westbrook experiment will soon come to an end.
On the positive side, more ping pong balls await. If the losing snowballs and some deck-clearing trades occur there could be an avalanche of ping pong balls coming our way.
On the positive side, more ping pong balls await. If the losing snowballs and some deck-clearing trades occur there could be an avalanche of ping pong balls coming our way.
I don't know how to be a fan that roots for my team to lose. You and Joshy might think me a fool, but I'll never root for a loss and I'll always pull for whatever crappy lineup my team chose to run out.
Padrino
All-Star
I suppose it could be crippling for the mid-term if the franchise doesn't take the obvious route out of this mess and commit to a rebuild. But even then, it would have been crippling for the mid-term if they had kept De'Aaron Fox. The Fox/Sabonis/DeRozan trio was not achieving long-term success together, and there were few paths forward to improve if they ended up in the play-in every season.
They absolutely should have held fire until the off-season before trying to move Fox. I said so at the time, and I still believe so now. It was a panic move that definitely left them with less value than they could have gotten in return for Fox. But the daylight between Fox and LaVine is nothing compared to the daylight between Doncic and Bagley. Not the same ballpark, game, world, galaxy, or universe. Carmichael Dave is in radio. He's reactive. He's gotta make big, bold statements no matter how silly they are.
The Fox trade didn't do this franchise any favors from a value-added standpoint, but at least now there's a chance that they can get on with the process of starting over. And LaVine is honestly not much of an impediment to that since he doesn't add a meaningful number of wins to the team's total by virtue of his presence alone, so I don't see much of a mid-term problem there.
He's either an ender to trade in the off-season, or he's off the books in 2027. Losses are bound to pile up in either case, so the Kings need to make sure they invest in the young talent they've already got and prioritize the acquisition of fresh talent via the draft. LaVine is in the way, but he's less of a problem for a rebuild than DeRozan, Schroder, Westbrook, Saric, etc. The Kings can move off of DeRozan, and they didn't need to go out and acquire Schroeder, Westbrook, and Saric. Unforced errors, those.
I think the Fox trade is ultimately going to be viewed through the lens of how much success Fox has with the Spurs coupled with if we land a high lotto pick in the next 2-3 years. LaVine will be off the books or making a lot less money while Fox will be on his 50m+ deal. I have no clue what if anything we'd have gotten for him this offseason but not getting that pick swap back as part of any deal was malpractice by Monte.
Padrino
All-Star
Good for you.
I appreciate the commitment. For me, it boils down to math. The Kings have been in Sacramento for 40 years. They've only had 10 winning seasons in that span. Much of that futility is due to short-term thinking.
I'm 38 years old, and I'd like to see the Kings become a perennial playoff contender again sometime before, like, I'm of the age to retire. And this is how you make it happen in the NBA. You lose, but you lose well. It sets you up for future success. This is what so many fans seem to miss. Losing with a lineup of...
Carter
Ellis
Clifford
Murray
Sabonis
...is noble in its way. That's losing well. It's not throwing games intentionally. It's losing because your talent is too inexperienced to hang with NBA vets night in and night out. But it pays off as you acquire more high value draft picks and watch your young talent grow into a winning team together. It's how small market franchises make headway. It's how so many teams have done it in the last two decades. It sounds rewarding to me. I'd like to see the Kings try it sometime.
I suppose I'll just never understand the Kings fan who's excited about the likes of DeMar DeRozan and Russell Westbrook on this side of ancient. They're not long-term pieces. They're not fan favorites. They're not "Kings for Life" types who will be hanging around the franchise when they retire. They're just aging vets past their prime who the Kings signed in a desperate bid to compete for 40 wins and a play-in exit.
Rooting for those guys to win means nothing to the Kings fan in me who bleeds purple. Rooting for Keegan Murray does. Rooting for Keon Ellis does. Rooting for Devin Carter and Nique Clifford does. That's homegrown talent that should be around for a long time. And if they lose? So be it. Add more young talent, grow together, then win.
But please, I'm begging you, Vivek, no more of this "Yeah, go Kings! 35-40 wins with a roster of cast-offs from other teams so we can get the 10th seed or BUST!"
Your only hope is that his children sell the team.
I get it, I'm part of the problem, etc....but honestly, your optimism is just aimed in a different direction than mine, however naive both might be. I'm 41 and not even from Sac, but I bleed purple and I shout beams to those who will listen. But... I can't influence the organization in any meaningful way, so I choose faith and hope and I stifle the sad when we lose (there's a lot of stifling). If we're terrible, I'll hope for a better pick. If we fight for a useless play-in appearance, I'll support that every second too. Being a Kings fan is hard work and it's honestly kinda dumb. But here we both are anyway!Good for you.
I appreciate the commitment. For me, it boils down to math. The Kings have been in Sacramento for 40 years. They've only had 10 winning seasons in that span. Much of that futility is due to short-term thinking.
I'm 38 years old, and I'd like to see the Kings become a perennial playoff contender again sometime before, like, I'm of the age to retire. And this is how you make it happen in the NBA. You lose, but you lose well. It sets you up for future success. This is what so many fans seem to miss. Losing with a lineup of...
Carter
Ellis
Clifford
Murray
Sabonis
...is noble in its way. That's losing well. It's not throwing games intentionally. It's losing because your talent is too inexperienced to hang with NBA vets night in and night out. But it pays off as you acquire more high value draft picks and watch your young talent grow into a winning team together. It's how small market franchises make headway. It's how so many teams have done it in the last two decades. It sounds rewarding to me. I'd like to see the Kings try it sometime.
I suppose I'll just never understand the Kings fan who's excited about the likes of DeMar DeRozan and Russell Westbrook on this side of ancient. They're not long-term pieces. They're not fan favorites. They're not "Kings for Life" types who will be hanging around the franchise when they retire. They're just aging vets past their prime who the Kings signed in a desperate bid to compete for 40 wins and a play-in exit.
Rooting for those guys to win means nothing to the Kings fan in me who bleeds purple. Rooting for Keegan Murray does. Rooting for Keon Ellis does. Rooting for Devin Carter and Nique Clifford does. That's homegrown talent that should be around for a long time. And if they lose? So be it. Add more young talent, grow together, then win.
But please, I'm begging you, Vivek, no more of this "Yeah, go Kings! 35-40 wins with a roster of cast-offs from other teams so we can get the 10th seed or BUST!"
sactowndog
Hall of Famer
Remember we gave up a 1st to get LaVine, we also gave up cap space and a massive trade exception and Huerter.
Dave’s point was the Bagley gap was not knowable at the time of the trade. The LaVine issues were all knowable.
TaxMan
Starter
I loved that he plays with a little bit of an edge. He's a little funny, he seems like a genuinely nice guy, but then you see him throwing people around and being a bit of a menace on the court. I loved him just swatting away Greyson Allen like a fly and laughing at him.
sactowndog
Hall of Famer
Or can’t keep her hands off them and is forced to sell them.
TaxMan
Starter
... yikes...
Padrino
All-Star
Again, it was a bad trade. It created a massive roster imbalance that was always going to be near-impossible to recover from, which meant that it doomed this iteration of the Kings before the season even started. But those are near-term problems. The question was always going to be how the new front office would respond to the need for an overhaul of the roster. We'll see.
I just flat-out dispute the notion that trading Fox for LaVine was some kind of franchise-crippling mistake. Bad deal/poor asset management from the outgoing GM (most likely as a result of pressure applied from the owner), but it hardly gets in the way of a rebuild if Perry is introspective enough to see the forest for the trees. If the Kings dump DDR by the trade deadline, prioritize minutes for their younger players, lose 55-60 games, end up with a high draft pick, and commit to the development of a young, exciting team, then the Fox trade is mostly a footnote. We'll look back and say, "Would have been nice if the Kings had gotten more, but at least we're finally rebuilding."
That said, the trade does look worse if Perry dicks around with aging veterans in No Man's Land for the next few seasons while Fox rides Wemby's long-ass coattails to sustained playoff success. So don't be that guy, Scott! Nobody believes in this roster, and not in the "Nobody believes in us" whiteboard fodder kinda way, but in the "It's just so sad; would somebody put them out of their misery?" kinda way.
iowamcnabb
Hall of Famer
Devin Booker every 5 minutes
Padrino
All-Star
This argument rests on the assumption that everyone's acumen was as poor as Vlade's. Nothing about Bagley made sense in the context of the modern NBA, even in the year of his draft. There are never certainties when evaluating young talent, but there are absolutely knowables in any given draft. You yourself are likely to gamble on length over almost every other trait in a young player because you recognize the value of length in the modern NBA. You know something, even if it isn't much.
Take Trae or JJJ over Luka in that particular draft, and it's not a complete disaster, because at least Trae and JJJ make sense in the context of the modern NBA. We know something about the skills and attributes that translate to wins in today's league. But draft Marvin Bagley, and you've just conceded a decade or more of sustained playoff success to your rivals, because you weren't paying attention to the knowables.