Evans for Vasquez

[Uncia03]

Let me toss something out here for people to mull over.

This is to all the people who are completely supportive of doing a S&T with NO for Vasquez because they believe that DA is a smart guy and that Vivek wants to build a winning team this year...since he invested so much money in the team.

There really hasn't been a lot of 'confirmation' that the Kings will definitively do this S&T. Meaning something from the Front Office of SAC or NO.
What if DA at the moment is trying to work out a big impact acquisition with the capspace that will be available. (Let's just say that we're talking to Iggy again)

And let's say that he isn't able to get that impact player, so he moves on to plan B, and that falls through, then on to plan C, and that falls through.

He's got 6 days to try to work out a deal to use this capspace. What if after 5/6 days all the deals he wants to make fall through and he sees how hard it is to use cap space here in the Sacramento market.

At that point, if I'm being smart I'd not do the S&T and instead match the offer.
Why?

Because there is nothing wrong with retaining Tyreke and seeing if it could work with B-Mac & Cousins...and there is nothing preventing an actual trade, perhaps at the trade deadline with NO for the exact same sort of deal that is being proposed now.

Anyway...I guess I'm saying that a smart GM would keep his options open...and if the deals that are being attempted fall through, it might be better to hold on to an asset rather than letting it go in a trade that is lopsided in the other partner's favor.

 

[sactownfan]

Kings blew it.

While Vasquez is not the level of player Evans is thats not the point of this move.

Evans is a monster of a question mark. we still dont know what position he plays, and while we know that the coaching/ roster affected his production. By how much?

the fact of the matter is that when we landed Ben Mclemore WE LANDED A POTENTIAL ALL-STAR. Ben was in most peoples minds the #1 talent in the draft. BOOM! We have Cousins still (most important piece), Ben. PLUS a ton of ACTUAL MOVABLE PIECES (minus salmons.outlaw), and A TON OF CAP to carve our own path.

CLEARLY our new coach, and FO staff believe that this team needs a true PG and Cousins and Ben McL. will thrive more with a true PG rather than the ISO Evans show. Vasquez was very productive at getting people shots and is super cheap.

THIS IS COUSINS TEAM NOW.... he will be getting set up more. that will make him happy. WE ALL WIN IF COUSINS IS HAPPY.

I liked Evans and was initially bummed too. but this offseason is just getting started. everyone chill out.

 

[Showtime]

First he was top 10, now top 5. Go check all the PGs in the league and maybe revise that list. And remember there are two sides of the court and more to being a pg than passing.

1st in Assist total
3rd in APG
8th in AST/TO

14/9/4 is nothing to scoff at, especially for a guy who can score and create for others, something Evans hasn't proven to be consistently good at. Most of the other top PG's have more scoring prowess and mentality, save for Chris Paul who is, along with Rondo and a handfull of others, among a group of PG top talent that doesn't mind facilitating first. Why are you acting as if he's some throw-away? This team actually has more talented scorers than the hornets last season, so it wouldn't surprise me if he averaged double digit assists here.

Evans may be more talented, but Vasquez is the better fit with his play style. As another poster pointed out, if this were a videogame, then fine. But this iso style of play the Kings have had is terrible if the team wants to win.

 

[Section 101]

Let me toss something out here for people to mull over.

This is to all the people who are completely supportive of doing a S&T with NO for Vasquez because they believe that DA is a smart guy and that Vivek wants to build a winning team this year...since he invested so much money in the team.

There really hasn't been a lot of 'confirmation' that the Kings will definitively do this S&T. Meaning something from the Front Office of SAC or NO.
What if DA at the moment is trying to work out a big impact acquisition with the capspace that will be available. (Let's just say that we're talking to Iggy again)

And let's say that he isn't able to get that impact player, so he moves on to plan B, and that falls through, then on to plan C, and that falls through.

He's got 6 days to try to work out a deal to use this capspace. What if after 5/6 days all the deals he wants to make fall through and he sees how hard it is to use cap space here in the Sacramento market.

At that point, if I'm being smart I'd not do the S&T and instead match the offer.
Why?

Because there is nothing wrong with retaining Tyreke and seeing if it could work with B-Mac & Cousins...and there is nothing preventing an actual trade, perhaps at the trade deadline with NO for the exact same sort of deal that is being proposed now.

Anyway...I guess I'm saying that a smart GM would keep his options open...and if the deals that are being attempted fall through, it might be better to hold on to an asset rather than letting it go in a trade that is lopsided in the other partner's favor.

It has to be worked out by tomorrow for Lopez to be included or they will have to waive him.

 

[Uncia03]

It has to be worked out by tomorrow for Lopez to be included or they will have to waive him.

True on the Lopez bit...but that really doesn't have any impact here since the reports are that Lopez would be sent to Portland with pretty much no compensation from Portland.
If the Sac FO's plan is to acquire Vasquez...then they don't have to care about Lopez at all. NO can cut him, trade him, or whatever...as it wouldn't make any difference in the S&T pieces that the Kings are interested in.

 

[jalfa]

Well that's part of the problem with your average sports fan. They know their own team really well (and often times really over-value or really hate certain players) but they don't follow other teams closely enough to really know about other players.

well, I've watched roughly 40 Hornets games last season, but if you can tell me something new, don't hesitate and enlighten me. any ideas about how to mask his severe defensive deficiencies now that he doesn't have Davis and Lopez to cover for him would also be greatly appreciated.

 

[jcwkings]

so i had a chance to sleep on this, and i woke up even more pissed off. Tyreke was so fun to watch. and its just not right that he got so screwed over by the awful coaching and now he doesnt get the chance to play in a real system here.

PDA, you blew it. Vasquez is not that good.

Yeah he was fun to watch, but his style of play doesn't lead to wins unless you are a truly elite talent(Lebron). It was either getting a pure pg and trying to develop Cousins and McLemore to all stars, or 4 more years of Tyreke iso basketball, with no off ball movement, great highlight layups mixed with bonehead drives into walls of players and another 20-30 win season. There is such thing as addition by subtraction, and I would argue we aren't even doing that Vasquez+McLemore+ McCallum+Free Agent SF>>> Tyreke+McLemore(with no true pg), McCallum

 

[HereWeBoogie]

McLemore better not disappoint or this new FO is going to look VERY bad

 

[Merdiesel]

I love Tyreke. I will always root for this kid. He was our only bright spot through easily the worst years as a kings fan. He never complained, never demanded a trade from what was easily the most toxic environment for any young athlete. He just did what he had to do. He will get one hell of a standing ovation when he comes back.

A part of me feels like we never saw what he could really do under this broken team the last couple years, another part of me (a big part of me) wants to win some ****ing ball games. We just got a guy who averaged damn near 9 assists a game last year and saved a ton of money in the process. Cousins and mcLemore are better with Vasquez. I like the move. If the extra cap space means we can also bring in a game changer at SF, I will love the move.

Go Kings.

 

[Entity]

I am pro Tyreke before I say this. But New Orleans waxed out a$$ 2 out 3 times last year with Vasquez being the highest +/- guy on the team. in the 2 wins he got 19 & 12 pts and 11 & 13 ast. the game the Kings beat the hornets/pelicans 3 of the NO starters only played like 20-24 min. end of season tank mode? Vasquez had 25 double doubles last year and 1-2 pts or 1-2 assist away from have about 50.

In the end I think he as a pg had far less talent around him in NO than he will here in Sacramento. thats only upside i have to this. Now if we don't sign a FA or Trade for a talent at SF one could argue we won't have alot more talent than they did. but I like Cuz to be better than Davis and Maclemore year 1 could be as good as Gordon. just got to find a 3rd guy.

 

[dude12]

We don't have to SIGN someone with cap space, we can absorb someone else's contract. For example, GSW wants Dwight, but doesn't have the cap for him... We could, say do a 3-way trade with Portland, send a pick & change to GSW, portland gets David Lee / Thorton, we get LA...

That's where cap would be most useful - we can facilitate a trade, absorb a huge salary and grab a great player.

That is what I would be looking at. It's a great way besides Free Agency to acquire players. Wondering if this is the next move by the FO.

 

[Mass]

You know that part that really bothers me?

If we end up not signing Cousins to a extension because he 'doesn't fit the culture of this team' then your above statement would be completely true of DMC as well.

Cousins has the ability to dominate the court if he keeps his head together, had good coaching, and is surrounded by players who maximize his game.
But the same can be said of Tyreke. People can point out Tyreke's flaws all they want...but the simple fact is that he is elite at an aspect of basketball that is critical to winning basketball games.

Now I like Vasquez...I liked him a lot at Maryland, but he was someone that I considered a late 1st/early 2nd pick-up. Not that draft position means anything in regards to whether someone will succeed in the NBA, but now I'm seeing people say that he's a top 10 PG, which is crazy. Until he blew up for NO last year...no-one would have said anything of the sort.

Another thing that people probably don't understand is that one of the reasons he was a late draft pick was due to his age. He's a couple years older than Tyreke right now. Perhaps for our locker room that additional age will be a good thing...but it's not as if we're getting a young player with a huge amount of room to grow.

What I do like most about Vasquez is his fiery attitude...reminded me a lot of Garcia...so he is a very different personality compared to Tyreke.

Anyway...no way in a million years would I trade Vasquez for Tyreke in a straight swap. People are talking about all the cap room that this will afford us. The problem is that cap room is useless unless spent on impact pieces. We had a ton of caproom and squandered it with Hayes/Outlaw/Johnson. Remember when Detroit fired-saled their guys for cap room and then blew that space on Charlie V. & Ben Gordon?

If we do end up making this S&T and then don't do something with huge impact with the cap space then this will have been a colossal failure by our FO.

I guess we'll have a lot to talk about at Summer League...

Well, here I disagree. He's 26. He's young. Especially for a PG. Want some comparison? Like someone else likes to do, I'll post the stats of 3 players when they were 26 years old.

PLAYER 1: 27.4 min 0.477 FG% 0.403 3FG% 0.882 FT% 8.6 PPG 4.9 APG 2.2 RPG 0.7 SPG 1.82 TO 4th year in the league

PLAYER 2: 34.4 min 0.433 FG% 0.342 3FG% 0.805 FT% 13.9 PPG 9.0 APG 4.3 RPG 0.8 SPG 3.17 TO 3rd year in the league

PLAYER 3: 37.2 min 0.475 FG% 0.233 3FG% 0.568 FT% 10.6 PPG 11.2 APG 4.4 RPG 2.2 SPG 3.44 TO 5th year in the league

Player #1 is Steve Nash, which shows you that a player can get much better even after his 26th birthday. Player #2 of course is Vasquez. Player #3 is Rajon Rondo, a guy pretty much everybody woudn't have any problem trading for Tyreke. Are those stats so different? Of course he played in a better team (btw, it should be easier to get assists with good teammates like Ray Allen and Pierce), and I'm not sayng he is or he will be like Nash or Rondo. I'm just saying that sometimes the so called big names look so much better, but the reality might be a little different.
Like I said before, I would never trade Evans for Vasquez straight up. But, if they decided he is not part of our future, we could have landed one of the best underrated pass first PG in the league, a floor general that will make his teammates better instead of letting him walk for free.

 

[Chupacabra]

I think if you step back and look at the big picture this all looks very exciting. Free agency has barely started and we've already seen the team shaken to its core. There is a ton of time left in free agency and It looks like ALOT of money has been freed up. We finally have an aggressive GM. Rest assured there are still moves to be made. Vasquez is a guy that likes to find his targets. I can see this working out.

 

[HereWeBoogie]

just imagine the outrage if McLemore doesn't pan out and Cousins doesn't get along with the new regime and ends up traded.....

 

[The_Jamal]

just imagine the outrage if McLemore doesn't pan out and Cousins doesn't get along with the new regime and ends up traded.....

Just imagine if this core goes out and wins 40 games next season and Cousins is an all-star, McLemore is ROY....

Oh wait. forgot. There's no chance this team can be any good. Doom and gloom.

 

[Chupacabra]

just imagine the outrage if McLemore doesn't pan out and Cousins doesn't get along with the new regime and ends up traded.....

Lol why would anyone want to imagine that? Pre Tyreke trade we all considered PDA to be a brain. I think it's entirely possible that he sees something that we don't.

 

[jcwkings]

Remember Vasquez is 26 with no reliance on athleticism, or speed. Tyreke is 100% dependent on those things, and any injury(which he is prone to) will just continue to wear his body down. Vasquez is a high IQ player that will still get better, probably wont reach his prime for 1 or 2 more years, and will have an extended prime because he is not reliant on physical gifts(like Nash).

 

[HereWeBoogie]

Just imagine if this core goes out and wins 40 games next season and Cousins is an all-star, McLemore is ROY....

Oh wait. forgot. There's no chance this team can be any good. Doom and gloom.

i pray for that because DMC is my favorite and i am very high on McLemore.

just saying. imagine how everyone would view the new Front Office if they lose Reke & Cousins, and McLemore turns out to be a bust......

 

[Mass]

just imagine the outrage if McLemore doesn't pan out and Cousins doesn't get along with the new regime and ends up traded.....

If that's the case, it would happen even if Reke is still here, so I don't see the point. Actually, DMC and McLemore have better chance to be good with a true PG who knows how to pass the ball.

 

[dude12]

I am pro Tyreke before I say this. But New Orleans waxed out a$$ 2 out 3 times last year with Vasquez being the highest +/- guy on the team. in the 2 wins he got 19 & 12 pts and 11 & 13 ast. the game the Kings beat the hornets/pelicans 3 of the NO starters only played like 20-24 min. end of season tank mode? Vasquez had 25 double doubles last year and 1-2 pts or 1-2 assist away from have about 50.

In the end I think he as a pg had far less talent around him in NO than he will here in Sacramento. thats only upside i have to this. Now if we don't sign a FA or Trade for a talent at SF one could argue we won't have alot more talent than they did. but I like Cuz to be better than Davis and Maclemore year 1 could be as good as Gordon. just got to find a 3rd guy.

Agreed that there is some potential here. I don't care if they upgrade PF or SF with the available cap space as long as we upgrade our talent base. We could be several moves away from final product. If the FO nails their draft picks in McLemore AND McCollam, then we have another piece to move in Isaiah Thomas if they choose. If we obtain an upgrade at PF, then we will have an extra piece to move in JT or PPat...... I just think we are several moves away from being complete.

 

[theclash4u5]

just imagine the outrage if McLemore doesn't pan out and Cousins doesn't get along with the new regime and ends up traded.....

Just imagine the outrage if we pay 44M for Evans and he gets injured, doesn't play well and we win 28 games next year. Then we MAX Cousins and suddenly we have the same team we've had the past 3 years, give and take a role player or two. WOW that would be exciting, wouldn't it?

 

[John Galt]

just imagine the outrage if McLemore doesn't pan out and Cousins doesn't get along with the new regime and ends up traded.....

Everyone is getting their outrage on plenty right now - no need to 'imagine'.

This board overall has been so high strung lately I don't get it. Dividing up into pro/anti Tyreke camps for no reason. Not very much respect for the opinions of others. And everything is so very very heavy and "of massive consequence" all the time.

I will be glad when the smoke clears from all this and we can sort of band together as fans of whatever group we end up with. Right now there is such intense bickering that it is not as much fun as it should be.

I really don't think Vivek and PDA have ruined anything yet for our 28 win team. I just don't.

 

[Entity]

Tyreke 15pts 3.5ast 4.4 reb 11 mil a year #2 man on the team

Vasquez 14pts 9ast 4reb 2 mil a year #4 man on the team


thats what it boils down to as a GM do you want to give an extra 9 mil for that difference. lets say he averges his best 20/5/5 is +6pts -4ast +1reb worth 9 more mil for #2 option when -6pt +4ast -1reb as #4 option when you need a facilitator for mac and cuz?

 

[sergmatt]

Please. Most of the loudest supporters of Reke watch a ton of nba, which is why they understand his value. This isn't the case of ignorant fans getting caught up in hometown bias.

Second PDA was never the main guy in den, he was a cap guy working for talent evaluators. We have nothing to measure him by as a FO head besides the moves so far. He wouldn't be the first guy better suited to a support role.

Finally, the Denver blueprint is how you guarantee a middle of the road team, precisely because they lack multiple star level talents. That isn't the recipe for long term success.

Hometown fans arguing so voraciously for a player that has not improved much since his rookie year, does not make teammates better, and has not helped his team win many games is not a hometown bias? How is it anything but that? I know I know it's the coaches fault (all 4 of them!). Or maybe it's the role-players fault, I've seen them blamed a lot in this thread.

Ironic that a guy who is being labeled a "star" is also said to be held-down by his role-players. Sorry that's not how it works, stars players sometimes get held down by other stars or pseudo-stars (case in point Steph Curry and Monta Ellis or James Harden leaving Durant/Westbrook) but star players don't get held down by role-players. Star players don't not become stars because of role-players especially star-players whose offensive game is entirely independent of those role-players anyway. Maybe their teams win a few less games and they don't make it out of the first round in the playoffs but make no mistake, a star player is a star player and everybody knows it early on. Star players don't get held down and elite stars help build everybody else up.

You can trash the Denver blue-print as being "middle of the road" but last time I checked they were in the playoffs the last four years......something this team is only dreaming of right now.

 

[theclash4u5]

We haven't won more than 30 games in how many years and it's only July 4th and people already are against our front office. WOW. At least wait for July to end before jumping off any bridges, people.

 

[km23]

I don't get why for the most part not all, everyone is thinking so dang negatively. We gotta stay positive, first off the deal isn't even done so it may not happen at all. I know it's wishful thinking but better then all the. Negativity

 

[Fear the Putin]

I'm stepping back and observing everyone's reactions. Some for, some against which is all understandable. But, I think it's a bit uncalled for when some of you start demeaning PDA & Vivek for not agreeing with your point of view. Maybe have the season play out first?

We are a bottom dwelling team and have been for years. What the front office is doing is creating change. Started with the head coach to the GM and now Tyreke.

Some of you didn't like Reke, but the majority enjoyed him very much, myself included. We enjoyed that brute bully force that he drove to the basket with, those game winners, half court miracles, epic comebacks, nasty posters, insane handles and all around exciting play when he got going. But, he wasn't a bona fida star that suddenly got traded and thus the pitchforks had to be taken out. There were many faults and most of these which caused the FO to not include him in the future. The tunnel vision, the bad playmaking, the non-existent jumper, lack of assertiveness at times and overall low bball IQ. Was some of this a result of the dreadful coaching we've had? Possibly. But, a lot of it was inherent as well.

The point is that Tyreke may or may not get better. There is certainly room for improvement and we've seen minor improvements from his jump shot, shot selection, as well as his playmaking. But, let's see how the rest of the off-season plays out. We will suddenly have a lot more capspace to use, a point guard (who yes, is not a better OVERALL player than Tyreke) who will not look for his shot first and showing Cousins that this is indeed HIS team now.

 

[jpsls]

Darn. Does this mean Thornton is coming back?

 

[The_Jamal]

i pray for that because DMC is my favorite and i am very high on McLemore.

just saying. imagine how everyone would view the new Front Office if they lose Reke & Cousins, and McLemore turns out to be a bust......

As do I my friend. This board may never agree on anything, but the one thing we all want is wins.

And imagining worse case scenarios is never good for one's health. Reke could just as easily bust in NO and we dodged a huge bullet as he could become a major star.

 

[Uncia03]

Just imagine if this core goes out and wins 40 games next season and Cousins is an all-star, McLemore is ROY....

Oh wait. forgot. There's no chance this team can be any good. Doom and gloom.

*shakes his head*

Do you know what 40 wins does for this team next year?

It means that we aren't good enough to make the play-offs and we most probably lose our draft pick in one of the best drafts in a long, long time.

The only thing that can potentially salvage this situation is if DA is able to secure an impact player with the cap space saved in this deal.
And...we have to make the play-offs next season. If we just barely lose out...and lose our draft pick, then it will have been a failure of a season.

Edit: I might add that if we retained Tyreke and signed AI...DMC became an all-star and B-Mac wins ROY...and we still only won 40 games while losing our draft pick...it still would have been a failure for the season. (Why? Because it would mean that the team just isn't good enough)

However, a team with Tyreke/Iggy/B-Mac/Cousins/new coach would win more than 40 games and would make the play-offs barring some catastrophic event.

I don't have faith that a Vasquez/B-Mac/Cousins trio can make the play-offs...unless of course we get another major impact player via the cap space.
/EDIT