Thornton's Value?

[Bricklayer]

Then there's the possibility MT likes his PT and makes a conscious decision to play a more rounded game and becomes that sixth man we all want him to be.

He almost can't with Reke around as a SG.

The only way Thornton ever makes sense is if Reke is playing significant minutes at either PG or SF because Thornton himself is as pure a SG as you are going to find. No PG skills. No SF size.

Now if we shift Reke back to PG, then all of a sudden there is room for Thornton. With the right SF roleplayer maybe you can start him, although that really was grinding things to a halt at the beginning of 11-12. And certainly he could be a full time 6th man then. Typically you would start a limited minute defensive roleplayer at SG, then bring Thornton in to actually play more minutes as the 6th man than the starter played. You could even do that just with the material we have on hand if you started Reke/Douglas, then went to Reke/Thornton, and then a few minutes of Douglas/Thornton while Reke got his rest.

 

[Goo]

Why should the Pacers replace West? He is the toughest guy on their team and although aging, he doesnt need any athleticism for his game and is still able to play a few years on a decent level. I bet they resign him. But if they dont, they have Hansbrough, who can replace West right away.

First he is expensive, he will be asking for 10m+ at that price can Pacer afford it?

Second West slowed down alot the last couple years and he looks gassed whenever he play more than 30min. He maybe able to play a few more yrs on decent lvl but not at starter min.

If West willing to sign a 17-20m 3yrs then sure let resign him but I personally will pass if he asking for 10m+.

Hansbrough? Really?

 

[Bricklayer]

First he is expensive, he will be asking for 10m+ at that price can Pacer afford it?

Second West slowed down alot the last couple years and he looks gassed whenever he play more than 30min. He maybe able to play a few more yrs on decent lvl but not at starter min.

If West willing to sign a 17-20m 3yrs then sure let resign him but I personally will pass if he asking for 10m+.

Hansbrough? Really?

That's the thing about reaching the ECF though -- the Pacers aren't going to be in the mood to let anybody go. As far as they are concerned they are right there. Letting major pieces walk when you just took the EC champs to 7 games is suicidal unless you have an immediate plan on how to replace them (Big Al for instance).

 

[kingjatt]

First he is expensive, he will be asking for 10m+ at that price can Pacer afford it?

Second West slowed down alot the last couple years and he looks gassed whenever he play more than 30min. He maybe able to play a few more yrs on decent lvl but not at starter min.

If West willing to sign a 17-20m 3yrs then sure let resign him but I personally will pass if he asking for 10m+.

Hansbrough? Really?

At 32 I dont think he would even command much more than 10 mil on the free agent market.

He looked gassed in the last few games of the playoffs because he was battling an upper respitory infection and had a fever, before that I dont think he was even asked to play much beyond 30-35 mins per game.

Most free agents coming off a playoff run in which they missed the finals by 1 game would build up a market for themselves but he came out before game 6 and after game 7 clearly saying he wants to play in indiana and that those were his guys.

at this point indiana is the only team that can give him a legit shot at a ring while still being able to pay him around 10, i think he takes a 2/22 or 3/30 with a team option and stays, as brick said, you dont break up a good team if you dont have too.

and i agree hansbrough aint ready, they need west's offense.

 

[Goo]

That's the thing about reaching the ECF though -- the Pacers aren't going to be in the mood to let anybody go. As far as they are concerned they are right there. Letting major pieces walk when you just took the EC champs to 7 games is suicidal unless you have an immediate plan on how to replace them (Big Al for instance).

With West at 10m they're right at cap limit, and I predict Heat will knock them off again because lag of guard scoring. I am not against Pacer to resign West but I will consider other adding some guard scoring instead.

 

[jalfa]

With West at 10m they're right at cap limit, and I predict Heat will knock them off again because lag of guard scoring. I am not against Pacer to resign West but I will consider other adding some guard scoring instead.

arguably their problem was more that they lacked ball-handling and a wing guy off the bench not named Sam Young. Granger is more likely to help with those things than Thornton is, unless his ego is in the way or his knees have disintegrated fatally (in both cases, the Kings might want to pass on the trade anyway).

 

[Bricklayer]

arguably their problem was more that they lacked ball-handling and a wing guy off the bench not named Sam Young. Granger is more likely to help with those things than Thornton is, unless his ego is in the way or his knees have disintegrated fatally (in both cases, the Kings might want to pass on the trade anyway).

difference is Granger represents both a Thornton and PG help at the same time. Maybe even a third guy.

They could easily just say let's get Danny healthy and see how it plays out, but his giant salary is the key to patching holes and acquiring depth fro them.

 

[jalfa]

difference is Granger represents both a Thornton and PG help at the same time. Maybe even a third guy.

They could easily just say let's get Danny healthy and see how it plays out, but his giant salary is the key to patching holes and acquiring depth fro them.

I'm not sayin they shouldn't trade Granger, they definitely should. just don't know if the Kings can help with the ballhandling, seeing as the Pacers have had their teeny tiny PG needs covered with Augustin and that didn't work out too well, which might make them weary of a guy like IT. you could make this a three team deal somehow, dunno who'd be that third party, though.

 

[upinsmoke]

He almost can't with Reke around as a SG.

The only way Thornton ever makes sense is if Reke is playing significant minutes at either PG or SF because Thornton himself is as pure a SG as you are going to find. No PG skills. No SF size.

Now if we shift Reke back to PG, then all of a sudden there is room for Thornton. With the right SF roleplayer maybe you can start him, although that really was grinding things to a halt at the beginning of 11-12. And certainly he could be a full time 6th man then. Typically you would start a limited minute defensive roleplayer at SG, then bring Thornton in to actually play more minutes as the 6th man than the starter played. You could even do that just with the material we have on hand if you started Reke/Douglas, then went to Reke/Thornton, and then a few minutes of Douglas/Thornton while Reke got his rest.

I agree, Douglas is enough of a factor on the defensive side of the floor to warrant a starting gig. What MT lacks most is discipline and if the new regime walks the walk he will get a healthy dose of that.

 

[rainmaker]

Last summer the market valued Mayo, who's better than Thornton, at 4M.

Last summer the market valued Jamal Crawford, who's better than Thornton, at 5M. Jamal's contract was for 4 years.

Nick Young, who has started at SG and put up good numbers in Wash had little interest last summer as a FA and only received a 1/6M contract.

8M for Thornton to me is overpaid and I don't know how many teams would take a risk on him for that amount. And it is a risk since he's only had a good year to year and a half in this league and he does little else when he's not hitting. Generally streaky scorers who only score aren't valued as highly as MT's contract. When he's on, he's worth 8M. When he's off, he's worth 2-3M. The hope is he's more on than off but that's the conundrum with streaky, one trick pony scorers.

 

[sdballer]

Last summer the market valued Mayo, who's better than Thornton, at 4M.

Last summer the market valued Jamal Crawford, who's better than Thornton, at 5M. Jamal's contract was for 4 years.

Nick Young, who has started at SG and put up good numbers in Wash had little interest last summer as a FA and only received a 1/6M contract.

8M for Thornton to me is overpaid and I don't know how many teams would take a risk on him for that amount. And it is a risk since he's only had a good year to year and a half in this league and he does little else when he's not hitting. Generally streaky scorers who only score aren't valued as highly as MT's contract. When he's on, he's worth 8M. When he's off, he's worth 2-3M. The hope is he's more on than off but that's the conundrum with streaky, one trick pony scorers.

Yeah, it's really remarkable how much we set ourselves back with the stupid contracts handed out the last couple seasons. We legitimately should have an extra 10-15 Milion in cap space this summer, which could dramatically speed up the rebuild. Instead, we have to pray that our TBD GM manages to unload some of those bad deals without taking too much crap back.

It's what makes an expiring like Granger so appealing. You could potentially try out a legit SF while trimming some of those less than ideal deals. If he works, great. If not, you just free'd up a bit of capspace.

 

[rainmaker]

Yeah, it's really remarkable how much we set ourselves back with the stupid contracts handed out the last couple seasons. We legitimately should have an extra 10-15 Milion in cap space this summer, which could dramatically speed up the rebuild. Instead, we have to pray that our TBD GM manages to unload some of those bad deals without taking too much crap back.

It's what makes an expiring like Granger so appealing. You could potentially try out a legit SF while trimming some of those less than ideal deals. If he works, great. If not, you just free'd up a bit of capspace.

Granger being an expiring is also probably attractive for Ind, and keeping him next year and seeing how he fits with the team. If it works, keep him, if it doesn't, let him go and you have cap space.

Honestly, if I'm Ind, I keep him and attempt to add him to what we saw this year. Try to get another ballhandler some how which shouldn't be that tough. Even a cheap option like Prigioni was quite valuable for NY, and he was only 900K I think.

 

[KevinSalvadori]

Thorton does have value to certain teams. And those certain teams will also have contracts they need to dump.

1. Indiana needs shooting off the bench. They will be dangling Granger. If the Kings think Granger is healthy enough to trade for, a no-brainer trade would be Granger for Thorton and Salmons. They could use Salmons too, imo.

2. Minny is openly seeking shooting. Would anybody do a Thorton for D. Williams trade?

3. OKC will be thin at SG after not resigning KMart (most likely) and relying on Lamb.

4. Memphis really could have used a shooter off the bench in the playoffs. They have a couple young guys the Kings could be interested in like Daye or Davis.

I would do the IND trade in a heartbeat, but really worry about Granger's health. I'll add one team to the list here:

5. Milwaukee. The Bucks are in a serious state where they could lose their top SG option (Ellis) and top PG option (Jennings), both of whom often carried the bulk of the scoring for the team. I would expect little promising in return, but we could at least take on a more useful player familiar with our coach in a position we could use depth at. My deal would be Drew Gooden and their #43 for Thornton. We could ask for the #15, but I can't see them doing that. In this way, we get a vet big to backup Patterson and JT (PPatt is an FA after this year, and could swing to SF depth if we amnesty Salmons) familiar to Malone and still able to add some defense. MIL gets depth at a position they need and scoring. He could even start there, depending on their moves, and help balance that roster out a bit. That, IMO, is about the extent of our value for him at the minute.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

I would do the IND trade in a heartbeat, but really worry about Granger's health. I'll add one team to the list here:

5. Milwaukee. The Bucks are in a serious state where they could lose their top SG option (Ellis) and top PG option (Jennings), both of whom often carried the bulk of the scoring for the team. I would expect little promising in return, but we could at least take on a more useful player familiar with our coach in a position we could use depth at. My deal would be Drew Gooden and their #43 for Thornton. We could ask for the #15, but I can't see them doing that. In this way, we get a vet big to backup Patterson and JT (PPatt is an FA after this year, and could swing to SF depth if we amnesty Salmons) familiar to Malone and still able to add some defense. MIL gets depth at a position they need and scoring. He could even start there, depending on their moves, and help balance that roster out a bit. That, IMO, is about the extent of our value for him at the minute.

Umm, no. Milwaukee loves Gooden so much apparently they're seriously talking about amnestying him. I'd stay far, far away from this deal.

 

[Bricklayer]

I would do the IND trade in a heartbeat, but really worry about Granger's health. I'll add one team to the list here:

5. Milwaukee. The Bucks are in a serious state where they could lose their top SG option (Ellis) and top PG option (Jennings), both of whom often carried the bulk of the scoring for the team. I would expect little promising in return, but we could at least take on a more useful player familiar with our coach in a position we could use depth at. My deal would be Drew Gooden and their #43 for Thornton. We could ask for the #15, but I can't see them doing that. In this way, we get a vet big to backup Patterson and JT (PPatt is an FA after this year, and could swing to SF depth if we amnesty Salmons) familiar to Malone and still able to add some defense. MIL gets depth at a position they need and scoring. He could even start there, depending on their moves, and help balance that roster out a bit. That, IMO, is about the extent of our value for him at the minute.

Drew Gooden?

Drew Gooden??

If we're going shopping in Milwaulkee we're coming out of it with something that blocks shots.

 

[Entity]

The look on my face when I saw the name Drew Gooden would have been an internet meme.

 

[kingwin]

was that drew gooden thing a joke? lol had to be the worst trade in history.drew gooden??? give me udoh please

 

[KevinSalvadori]

The look on my face when I saw the name Drew Gooden would have been an internet meme.

Hey, I don't love it either but I have a hard time imagining how we dump one-sided Thornton while taking something back. I have thought of four other deals for MT that might be a little more amenable to the forum. Here goes:

DEAL #1:
To PHX: Marcus Thornton
To SAC: PF/C Marcin Gortat

Why: PHX could be looking at a big with 5, particularly Len, Bennett, or Zeller. It's also possible they could take Oladipo, lessening the need for another guard like MT. Still, rumor has it Hornacek wants to play a more up-tempo system and could value even a one-dimensional scorer with range like MT. The cost for that is Gortat, who they have wanted to move for awhile to no avail. We get a nice utility big man that can spot start who could pair well with DMC and save one extra contract year.

DEAL #2:
To DEN: Marcus Thornton
To SAC: PG Andre Miller, PF Anthony Randolph

Why: DEN is in disarray and could use simplification in their guard situation with a more traditional 2 that can purely score. With Iggy's seeming impending departure, their starting SG would likely be either Chandler or a re-signed Brewer; now consider with Gallo out they will need cover at the 3 as well, and the depth at the 2, on roster now, is basically Fournier. The Kings provide scoring, youth, and depth to DEN and get a nice starting PG and roster filler. Miller has been a consummate pro and could go a long ways towards "changing the culture" and showing these guys how to play, act, and think like a competitive team. I have admired his playmaking and traditional PG skills for years and would love to see him end his career here, where I believe he lived for some time. My personal favorite of the prospective deals.

DEAL #3:
To WAS: JT, Marcus
To SAC: Nene

Why: WAS would likely laugh this deal off until they pass out. But WAS is one of the weirdest teams, makeup wise, in the league. They have no depth to speak of and their biggest assets, Beal and Wall, join a cast of virtual nobodies with Jan Vesely (bust), Kevin Seraphin (depth filler on most any team), Chris Singleton (crafty shooter and interesting player, but raw), and Trevor Booker (utility big with nice upside) as the only players under contract next year, save for the albatross of contract known as Nene. This deal would provide WAS critical depth pieces to improve their rotations and flexibility, and also allow them to go after a couple of players that might gel with the Beal/Wall core better over time. The Kings help WAS get out of, essentially, half the Nene deal after two seasons and get a big that is known for rebounding and defensive attributes that could help be a big improvement next to DMC. Additionally, it could go a long way towards that shock to the system many of us have thought this team needs. We would likely have to sweeten the pot with a pick or something similar, I feel, but it could be worth it.

DEAL #4:
To BKN: Thornton, filler or nothing
To SAC: Wallace

Why: Normally I'd say BKN doesn't do this but the savings they'd get might make them amenable to it. Wallace fell off dramatically last year, but is still a marked improvement on what we have at the 3. He also is a hustle, "dirty work" sort of player that could mesh well with this team and plays fair defense for his position. BKN gets a bench scorer, essentially a more expensive version of Brooks, but hey, this is why I'm not a GM. Humphries is another target we could ditch for but his season last year was a disaster.

BONUS DEAL:
To MIL: IT, MT, Patterson, #7
To SAC: Udoh, Ilyasova, #15

Why: This one is a stretch, but it combines some other elements MIL could bite on. MIL gets depth across the board and cap relief year-to-year to help with a rebuild, which it does appear they are entering into. We get a starting SF while keeping our 4/5 intact, although we lose a lot of depth. Still, nice to have our first true 3 for the first time in what feels like 5 years. We trade a lot of players that DMC is reportedly close to, so there's that fallout too. But hey, if we get better who cares.

 

[KevinSalvadori]

Drew Gooden?

Drew Gooden??

If we're going shopping in Milwaulkee we're coming out of it with something that blocks shots.

Look, when I typed the words "Drew Gooden" without Ilyasova next to it I threw up in my mouth a little; it scared me too. Please see my amended deal below...

I want to apologize to the forum for any scare. I don't want Drew Gooden. I can't stand the guy. But it's kinda like trying to sell Pets.com shares in 2005. Not many takers.

 

[Smills91]

The Kings won 43% of their games with an Evans/MT starting backcourt, which is probably one of the best pairings we've had the last 4 years. I think we went away from it too quickly and while I think there could be better options for pairing with Evans (and using MT as a 6th man), it worked ok. If we had a better sf, some rim protection, coaching and more defined, defense first role players, I think you could win with an Evans/MT backcourt.

This on EVERY level. Trade Isaiah for a mid-level pick to draft Gorgui Dieng and nab Trey Burke at #7.

 

[roasthawg]

This on EVERY level. Trade Isaiah for a mid-level pick to draft Gorgui Dieng and nab Trey Burke at #7.

How does drafting Burke fit into anything sdballer said in the post you quoted?

 

[TheWileyVet]

Thorton's value is pretty much zilch. Undersized chucker who is underpaid and doesn't play much defense.

 

[Nikolizzle]

Here's one as well, and i'm sure it's been thrown around before:

To BOSTON: SG M. Thornton, PF J. Thompson
To SACRAMENTO: SF P. Pierce

It'll probably never happen, but it benefits both parties. Sure, it's a huge contract to take on; but it gives us the one position we're terrible in; clears us of two contracts we don't need, and give Boston two of the positions they're lacking in.

Boston gets Thompson to either start, or come off the bench behind Green; not only that, he has the size and strength to back up Garnett as well.
Thornton would be an immediate upgrade over Courtney Lee and Terry, and one of them could be shipped out.
We get an All-Star, a badly needed SF and a leader who knows how to win.

Only problem is the contracts on Lee, Terry & Green may make them inclined to turn down the offer.

 

[cuad]

I was thinking about it, and I've decided that we have to keep Marcus Thornton. He's a killer--a guy who will show up in the playoffs and who other players can rally around. We have to make an Evans-MT backcourt work.

 

[Bricklayer]

Thorton's value is pretty much zilch. Undersized chucker who is underpaid and doesn't play much defense.

People I think underrate our pieces habitually, but the fact of the matter is whether it results in wins or not Marcus Thornton could be installed as a starting SG somewhere and average 20ppg given minutes. In today's SG market there are maybe 5-7 guys who can say that.

He's started 99 games in his career, in those 99 starts he's averaged 19.2pts 4.0reb 2.4ast.

 

[Telemachus]

uhh, uhh, may I? here goes: Chuck, if what we've seen from him the last two years is what he is these days, is pretty much useless and an enormous waste of money! Petrie should rue the day he signed him (again) and if it actually was a decision between Hayes and Dalembert that's a seppuku worthy offense [/slighthyperbole]. sorry, had to get that off my chest.

Considering that Dalembert took less money than the Kings offered to go elsewhere, I don't think it was a matter of taking Hayes over Dalembert.

 

[Gilles]

Looking back at that situation I think Petrie didn't appreciate Daly's agent strong-arming him to get his client more minutes. When he saw how slim pickings were and how cheap was Daly to retain, Petrie still reached out to Dalembert, but the agent was hell-bent to get his client out of Sacramento and just tried to use Kings as leverage.
Another thought on the past: this is a first year, when Tyreke truly took a step forward in skill department and it happened to be the first year careless and lazy attitude of Donte Greene, Evans' best friend on the team, wasn't around.

 

[sdballer]

Looking back at that situation I think Petrie didn't appreciate Daly's agent strong-arming him to get his client more minutes. When he saw how slim pickings were and how cheap was Daly to retain, Petrie still reached out to Dalembert, but the agent was hell-bent to get his client out of Sacramento and just tried to use Kings as leverage.
Another thought on the past: this is a first year, when Tyreke truly took a step forward in skill department and it happened to be the first year careless and lazy attitude of Donte Greene, Evans' best friend on the team, wasn't around.

This has been a common bit of revisionist history from kings fans. We'll probably never know exactly what happened with the Dally negotiations but we actually made signing Hayes our priority and only began to pursue dally once the heart issue was discovered. If I was dally and knew we'd make signing chubby chuck more important than retaining him, I'd be a little bent as well.

the good news is we were so glad chuck's heart was ok, even if his weight or talent wasn't that we upped our offer. That worked out well.

 

[Gilles]

You mean "worked well for Chuck", right?