Oh I agree with you on the result, just not so much the cause (which you said was putting him at the point). I think I get what you're trying to say - that he could have had 2 additional years learning how to play off the ball and thus be more effective now, but if we're solely talking about him being an impact player then I still think that he has managed to have an impact 80% of the time when he gets the ball in his hands and is allowed to get into a rhythm. The problem is that doesn't happen enough - and as a result he often becomes a non-impact player.
Still mad we didn't draft Rubio? (split from arena thread)
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Except for their rookie seasons, when has Tyreke been better than Curry? Curry's current season is better than anything Tyreke has ever managed, including his 20/5/5 rookie campaign.
As much as I like Tyreke, I don't see him putting up 30 and 13 in a big game like Curry did tonight. Curry is a much more dynamic, well rounded offensive player than Tyreke and their basketball IQ's aren't remotely comparable. The only edge Tyreke has is defensively -- but only when properly motivated.
As much as I like Tyreke, I don't see him putting up 30 and 13 in a big game like Curry did tonight. Curry is a much more dynamic, well rounded offensive player than Tyreke and their basketball IQ's aren't remotely comparable. The only edge Tyreke has is defensively -- but only when properly motivated.
The thing is about the two though is that their careers have started off eerily similar; both got off to a great start their rookie year, both got hurt their second year, both had a ****ty coach in Westphal and Smart, Reke had both for 3 years that ****ed up actually utilizing their talent, but this year Curry had Marc Jackson actually feature him with Lee and Thompson and help him grow as a player, what did Reke have this year a coach that moves him all over the place, puts him as a 3rd or 4th option on most nights, and when he gets off to a good to great start, he gets pulled and sits for whole quarters at a time.
I'm not saying Reke is better than Curry cause they're completely different types of players, but i'm not gonna judge him til he actually has a coach that puts a system in place and actually tries to help him grow as a player. His rookie year, we saw what he could do when you put the keys in his hands, with his improved jumpshot, I still believe he can give you 23-26 pts./6 boards/6 assists/1-2 steals a game. He may not be able to take over a game and score 30 or 40 like Curry, but that isn't Reke's game, his game is to pound the other guard into oblivion and fill the stat sheet.
I'm not saying Reke is better than Curry cause they're completely different types of players, but i'm not gonna judge him til he actually has a coach that puts a system in place and actually tries to help him grow as a player. His rookie year, we saw what he could do when you put the keys in his hands, with his improved jumpshot, I still believe he can give you 23-26 pts./6 boards/6 assists/1-2 steals a game. He may not be able to take over a game and score 30 or 40 like Curry, but that isn't Reke's game, his game is to pound the other guard into oblivion and fill the stat sheet.
I love Curry's game and he definitely seems to have his head on straight. I'm sure his dad played a huge role in both. My only fear as a W's fan would be his balky ankles. I'm absolutely rooting for the Warriors in this series and held my breath when he left last night's game.
There's no question that Tyreke hasn't developed as much as we'd like based on his rookie year and Harden and Curry have emerged as better players. But all that really matters is whether Tyreke can improve and help this team win and I think he can. He's not a vocal leader and never will be and he isn't an alpha dog on the court. But as a second (or possibly third) scorer, tenacious defender, ballhandler and distributor he can be a very big piece if utilized correctly.
There's no question that Tyreke hasn't developed as much as we'd like based on his rookie year and Harden and Curry have emerged as better players. But all that really matters is whether Tyreke can improve and help this team win and I think he can. He's not a vocal leader and never will be and he isn't an alpha dog on the court. But as a second (or possibly third) scorer, tenacious defender, ballhandler and distributor he can be a very big piece if utilized correctly.
note who the kings' head coach is now. note tyreke evans' minutes played. and note how his head coach [under]utilizes him. then note who the warriors' head coach is now. note stephen curry's minutes played. and note how his head coach [properly] utilizes him...
finally, note stephen curry's performance under his previous head coach, who also happens to be the kings' current head coach. rinse, repeat, and you'll discover a player who has been justifiably taken off his leash. while there are distinct differences between evans and curry, perhaps the most important distinction is not style of play, but rather who their coach is...
hell, warriors fans were calling for keith smart to give curry more minutes in the same manner that kings fans currently take him to task for his underutilization of tyreke evans and demarcus cousins. hire a smart coach [instead of a coach smart], and you'll get more out of both. it's that simple...
finally, note stephen curry's performance under his previous head coach, who also happens to be the kings' current head coach. rinse, repeat, and you'll discover a player who has been justifiably taken off his leash. while there are distinct differences between evans and curry, perhaps the most important distinction is not style of play, but rather who their coach is...
hell, warriors fans were calling for keith smart to give curry more minutes in the same manner that kings fans currently take him to task for his underutilization of tyreke evans and demarcus cousins. hire a smart coach [instead of a coach smart], and you'll get more out of both. it's that simple...
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I doubt that your disappointed in anything I do, however, my point wasn't about whether Rubio is, or is not, a better PG than Tyreke, or even if he's a better player than Tyreke. Thats a debate I'm willing to have. However, my point was about the fact that we've had Tyreke's services for 4 years, and the T Wolves have had Rubio's services for just 98 games in that same span. Sorry, but I'll take a talented live body over no body at all for two years. That sir is my point.
I doubt that your disappointed in anything I do, however, my point wasn't about whether Rubio is, or is not, a better PG than Tyreke, or even if he's a better player than Tyreke. Thats a debate I'm willing to have. However, my point was about the fact that we've had Tyreke's services for 4 years, and the T Wolves have had Rubio's services for just 98 games in that same span. Sorry, but I'll take a talented live body over no body at all for two years. That sir is my point.
This under utilization of key players is part and parcel with the Keith Smart "team as family" paradigm. He's trying to cultivate relationships at the expense of dictating roles and thus feels some obligation to hand out minutes in a more egalitarian manner than he should. All of which is made worse by the fact that he's not even consistent in his spreading around of minutes/roles. Jerking guys minutes around in (what I have to assume is) an effort to exploit matchup advantages that only he sees means the whole roster is going to lack a sense of focus. And that's exactly what we saw. That and little to no in game adjustments.
Tyreke is a polarizing figure for Kings fans, but I for one hope he's back and with the ball in his hands more next season. But whether its with the Kings or not, I'll be watching Evans career arc very closely.
Tyreke is a polarizing figure for Kings fans, but I for one hope he's back and with the ball in his hands more next season. But whether its with the Kings or not, I'll be watching Evans career arc very closely.
Spot on. You can't really dig into the improvement of Curry and weigh it against Reke unless you are pretty familiar with the Smart/Curry dynamic. I live in the Bay Area and saw it up close, watch many GS games and see/hear the Bay Area media, and the media was all over Smart for not playing Steph more(actually makes me despise the Kings Sac area coverage, as down here the media questioned it constantly, here it goes unnoticed). It was the same damn thing we saw under Smart with Reke, Smart's theory everyone must play, including Acie Law, and making sure Acie Law of all people gets minutes and a rhythm at Steph's expense was somehow a blueprint for success.
It was the same exact s*** we see here with Smart. And, it didn't work. Steph has since been freed up, given the ball, pumped full of confidence by Mark Jackson, and really took a step forward.
It's really not as simple as Steph is a far better player because of the numbers he's putting up now and where GS is. Take Mark Jackson away, keep Smart around, keep playing backups at Steph's expense and take the ball out of his hands, and is he the same player? No, he's not, at least results wise which seems to be what some are strictly looking at, but the talent is still the same. Just because you're handcuffed by your coach and misused does not mean your talent has suffered.
There's a much bigger difference in the use of Curry under Jackson than there is a difference in Steph's talent level. Steph wasn't that much of a worse player under Smart talent wise, Jackson takes that talent and puts it in a better position to succeed. He's unleashed Steph. Reke isn't somehow less talented than he was when he put up 20/5/5, or less of a player, actually, he's improved and is a better all around player than he's ever been, it's more the use of him is terrible, jsut as it was for Steph under Smart. If a different coach puts the ball in Reke's hands next year and plays to his strengths, it doesn't all the sudden mean Reke is a different or more talented player, just being used more effectively and played to his strengths.
It was the same exact s*** we see here with Smart. And, it didn't work. Steph has since been freed up, given the ball, pumped full of confidence by Mark Jackson, and really took a step forward.
It's really not as simple as Steph is a far better player because of the numbers he's putting up now and where GS is. Take Mark Jackson away, keep Smart around, keep playing backups at Steph's expense and take the ball out of his hands, and is he the same player? No, he's not, at least results wise which seems to be what some are strictly looking at, but the talent is still the same. Just because you're handcuffed by your coach and misused does not mean your talent has suffered.
There's a much bigger difference in the use of Curry under Jackson than there is a difference in Steph's talent level. Steph wasn't that much of a worse player under Smart talent wise, Jackson takes that talent and puts it in a better position to succeed. He's unleashed Steph. Reke isn't somehow less talented than he was when he put up 20/5/5, or less of a player, actually, he's improved and is a better all around player than he's ever been, it's more the use of him is terrible, jsut as it was for Steph under Smart. If a different coach puts the ball in Reke's hands next year and plays to his strengths, it doesn't all the sudden mean Reke is a different or more talented player, just being used more effectively and played to his strengths.
In general though, it's tiring seeing some fans constantly highlight the strengths of other players while ignoring weaknesses, then turning around and constantly highlighting our players weaknesses, while ignoring their strengths, while at the same time often ignoring the impact a system and coach has on players.
It's so much about what Reke or Cuz can't do around here, while pretending other guys around the league, whether Steph, Jennings, Rubio, whomever don't have weaknesses of their own. It's ridiculous. I'll start calling it low fan IQ, since low player IQ keeps getting thrown around regarding our team.
It's so much about what Reke or Cuz can't do around here, while pretending other guys around the league, whether Steph, Jennings, Rubio, whomever don't have weaknesses of their own. It's ridiculous. I'll start calling it low fan IQ, since low player IQ keeps getting thrown around regarding our team.
I applauded that post! You've both got it spot on. If we've got LeBron James, but we take the ball away from him and give worse players more minutes at his expense, then you can't expect him to be league MVP. And that's what we've got with both Reke and DeMarcus . Instead of giving them the ball, surrounding them with complimentary players, watching them dominate the other team, and teaching them how to avoid mistakes when they make them, we're giving the ball to Jimmer Fredette, to Marcus Thornton, to Isaiah Thomas, to Travis Outlaw, having them chuck it up, and asking Reke and DeMarcus to help them out when they can't. And whenever either of them can't make up for the many mistakes of their less talented teammates, or make mistakes themselves, they get snubbed and likely won't play for the majority of the rest of the game. That's not how you win ball games.
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im just hoping no teams with cap space come in and try to raise the price on Tyreke, i think there is no doubt the new ownership group will extend him and make him the highest paid player on the team as well as let him know that he will be featured and not jerked around. with proper development/coaching he is a force.
I sure hope so! Tyreke Evans is underrated around here. He has had a very fine season even with the way he was misused by the coach. I hope the new ownership group sees this and keeps him around because I have to doubt that with a good coach, Cousins and Evans can be very good building blocks for this team! I just hope Vivek sees it the same way. He says he is a numbers guy so if he analyses the numbers, Tyreke Evans is a heck of a player. His per 36 numbers are very close to 20/5/5 only at a much better percentage than he did in the rookie season. Defensively, he is our best player.
For those in this thread arguing against the idea that Steph Curry is on a completely different level than Tyreke Evans, I gotta ask... Do you still feel that way?
If Curry's regular season wasn't enough, his performance in the playoffs thus far against Houston and now Game 1 against San Antonio should provide a fairly compelling case. As much as I like Tyreke, it's seems pretty clear that Curry is at a level - both scoring and creating for others - that Tyreke hasn't come close to reaching.
If Curry's regular season wasn't enough, his performance in the playoffs thus far against Houston and now Game 1 against San Antonio should provide a fairly compelling case. As much as I like Tyreke, it's seems pretty clear that Curry is at a level - both scoring and creating for others - that Tyreke hasn't come close to reaching.
I agree about the offensive end. No doubt curry is clearly the more deadly offensive player. The defensive side of the ball tells a different story though. This past season it was Evans that was clearly the better defensive player. He caused problems for almost everyone.
If I had to choose one right now it would be curry. His ability to put the ball in the hoop is only paralleled by few GREAT players. I suppose I just don't see it as such an obvious open and shut case of who the better player is as most do.
If I had to choose one right now it would be curry. His ability to put the ball in the hoop is only paralleled by few GREAT players. I suppose I just don't see it as such an obvious open and shut case of who the better player is as most do.
Really? Last I checked, Tyreke hasn't made any NBA all-defensive teams. Tyreke is a decent defensive player that can be pretty good when he focuses consistently. Curry may not have the length, strength and athletic ability that Tyreke has, but he can often be a pesky defender. If Tyreke was known as or had ever established himself as one of the games best defenders, I could understand this comment. But he hasn't and the advantage Evans has on that side of the ball isn't as big as many like to make it out to be. One could argue that the difference between Curry and Evans offensively is larger than it is defensively....
Until Evans is the best player on a playoff caliber team and advances his team into the 2nd round, I don't see how anybody can realistically believe it's anything but an open and shut case.
Right now, Evans is, at best, the 2nd best player on a team that hasn't won more than 28 games since he joined them 4 seasons ago.
Until Evans is the best player on a playoff caliber team and advances his team into the 2nd round, I don't see how anybody can realistically believe it's anything but an open and shut case.
Right now, Evans is, at best, the 2nd best player on a team that hasn't won more than 28 games since he joined them 4 seasons ago.
that's a bit reductionist, no? not that I disagree with the premise, but Curry has had wildly different circumstances to work with, especially the last two years. for fair measurement, we should compare Tyreke's next season, under an actual NBA headcoach (hopefully with this team), to Curry's campaign last year. there's still hope for him. but yeah, right now it clearly is an open&shut-case. Curry has been completely and absolutely amazing this year and seems to really thrive under pressure.
reductionist, indeed. every kings fan seems in agreement regarding the culture of self-sabotage that the maloofs instilled into this franchise across the last seven years or so. yet, when kings fans discuss the basketball side of things, that culture of self-sabotage often gets left out of the equation, as if it hasn't played a vital role in stunting the development of the talent on the kings' roster. judging tyreke evans, who plays for a broken, imbalanced team without an identity, against stephen curry, who plays for a fully-formed playoff team with a strikingly distinct identity, is an absolute fool's errand, and utterly irrelevant to the issues that matter regarding the rebuilding of the kings franchise...
throughout the playoffs thus far, mark jackson has repeatedly built up stephen curry, pointing out to him that he's the best player on the court, giving him as long a leash as he needs to be the best player he can be. do some fans out there honestly believe that such gestures don't make a difference in the development of both a young player's natural talent and a young player's instinct to maximize that talent? the correlation is so maddeningly obvious. it pisses me off to no end to recall keith smart speaking to the sacramento media, claiming that the kings' roster had no talent that separated itself from the pack, and giving james johnson or travis outlaw the same leash that he gave demarcus cousins or tyreke evans. it's... ohdearlord, it's enough to make the blood boil. again, it's kinda crazy for kings fans to fail to see the correlation between team culture and roster development, when the connection is so blatantly obvious...
yes, right now, stephen curry could be considered the "better player," as if it matters. but, to me, that's not the issue. to me, the issue is how best to go forward in a manner that allows tyreke evans to begin closing that gap. 'reke is a reclamation project with a ton of potential, particularly since his stunted growth will keep the total cost of his upcoming free agency down. the kings have an opportunity to lock him up at incredible value, considering the player he might become...
throughout the playoffs thus far, mark jackson has repeatedly built up stephen curry, pointing out to him that he's the best player on the court, giving him as long a leash as he needs to be the best player he can be. do some fans out there honestly believe that such gestures don't make a difference in the development of both a young player's natural talent and a young player's instinct to maximize that talent? the correlation is so maddeningly obvious. it pisses me off to no end to recall keith smart speaking to the sacramento media, claiming that the kings' roster had no talent that separated itself from the pack, and giving james johnson or travis outlaw the same leash that he gave demarcus cousins or tyreke evans. it's... ohdearlord, it's enough to make the blood boil. again, it's kinda crazy for kings fans to fail to see the correlation between team culture and roster development, when the connection is so blatantly obvious...
yes, right now, stephen curry could be considered the "better player," as if it matters. but, to me, that's not the issue. to me, the issue is how best to go forward in a manner that allows tyreke evans to begin closing that gap. 'reke is a reclamation project with a ton of potential, particularly since his stunted growth will keep the total cost of his upcoming free agency down. the kings have an opportunity to lock him up at incredible value, considering the player he might become...
Curry is averaging something like 27/10 in the playoffs....Reke isnt even close to the player Curry is now. However, drawing on points made by other posters in this thread...The last time Reke was given the leeway by his coach to be all he could be on the court, he was a 20/5/5 rookie. And for those of us who actually WATCH the game, instead of just hate..Tyreke HAS improved since his ROY season, but he has been so misused by coach Dip**** you sometimes have to squint to see it.
Will Tyreke ever have Curry's shooting and court vision? Nope. But he can be a two way player with just as much impact on the court for his team (hopefully he remains on the Kings).
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Will Tyreke ever have Curry's shooting and court vision? Nope. But he can be a two way player with just as much impact on the court for his team (hopefully he remains on the Kings).
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I usually try to avoid arguing with people that use accolades and awards as a part of their format for player evaluation. I like to call it the way i see it when assessing players. Ive watched both of these players alot the past year. I maintain what i previously said about evans and curry. It can be argued that Evans lack of defensive awards has to do with him only getting 31mpg on a 28 win team. I also dont like the way that you try to correlate Evans skill level as an individual to the number of wins the Kings were able to achieve as a team. You cant tie individual skill level to win total. Individual skill level is represented by an individual player's ability where as the win total is the teams ability to win games. Can i say that damien lillard and lamarcus aldridge arent high level players because the blazers didnt make the playoffs? No.
Wow lots of purple shaded glasses here.
During the draft, Rubio was ranked above Evans according to insider sources and analysts.
At this moment, Rubio is a more valuable player than Evans. Any GM in the league would trade Evans for Rubio in a heartbeat if they had equal contracts.
So it seems pretty natural that many people will think we should have drafted Rubio. I don't see why many of you give people who feel the Kings should have drafted Rubio such a hard time. You don't have to agree, seems like a completely valid argument so why get so defensive?
During the draft, Rubio was ranked above Evans according to insider sources and analysts.
At this moment, Rubio is a more valuable player than Evans. Any GM in the league would trade Evans for Rubio in a heartbeat if they had equal contracts.
So it seems pretty natural that many people will think we should have drafted Rubio. I don't see why many of you give people who feel the Kings should have drafted Rubio such a hard time. You don't have to agree, seems like a completely valid argument so why get so defensive?
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