Cant say I dont agree with him but didnt expect it to come out in public.
http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/04/22/evans-meeting-kings/
http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/04/22/evans-meeting-kings/
Tyreke is NOT happy
- Thread starter kingjatt
- Start date
This is being discussed a bit in the personnel forums, but this is a full article so I'll leave it here.
And really how COULD he be happy? His own coach has frozen him out of the offense. I've said before that Tyreke has taken it on the chin more than anybody on this team, and the closest thing we've heard to a complaint was a quote that "he wasn't sure yet how he liked playing off the ball". But really, his reps are right. You can't trust this organization to get anything right. This isn't the Spurs with a proven winning system that has won 50 games evry year for a decade+. This is the Kings, out of the playoffs for 6 years, on our 5th miserable coach over that span (Smart is now a blistering 63-115 .356 for his coaching career). A team that can **** up any good thing that they bumble into. You damn well better fight for yourself, because nobody competent is going to fight for you.
And really how COULD he be happy? His own coach has frozen him out of the offense. I've said before that Tyreke has taken it on the chin more than anybody on this team, and the closest thing we've heard to a complaint was a quote that "he wasn't sure yet how he liked playing off the ball". But really, his reps are right. You can't trust this organization to get anything right. This isn't the Spurs with a proven winning system that has won 50 games evry year for a decade+. This is the Kings, out of the playoffs for 6 years, on our 5th miserable coach over that span (Smart is now a blistering 63-115 .356 for his coaching career). A team that can **** up any good thing that they bumble into. You damn well better fight for yourself, because nobody competent is going to fight for you.
Tyreke can be unhappy all he wants, but he's made his own bead. It can be argued that he hasn't improved one bit since his rookie season. In fact, it can be argued that he's actually regressed. If he would have developed into the player many, including myself, expected ... he wouldn't be having an issue with his role right now.
Just for the record, I was lobbying for the Kings to select Tyreke in the 2009 draft. I really felt, considering what he displayed and how the team performed once he was transitioned to PG for the Memphis Tigers, that he'd develop into a nightmare matchup PG in the NBA. Admittedly, I've been wrong thus far and may never be right about it. Point is, I am not a Tyreke hater. I want to see the kid succeed. I'd love to see the kid succeed. However, he just hasn't worked out to this point in time. While most, if not all, of Keith Smart's decisions seem highly questionable, I don't blame him one bit for limiting Tyreke's PT and not catering to him in the manner Paul Westphal did. Just my opinion.
Just for the record, I was lobbying for the Kings to select Tyreke in the 2009 draft. I really felt, considering what he displayed and how the team performed once he was transitioned to PG for the Memphis Tigers, that he'd develop into a nightmare matchup PG in the NBA. Admittedly, I've been wrong thus far and may never be right about it. Point is, I am not a Tyreke hater. I want to see the kid succeed. I'd love to see the kid succeed. However, he just hasn't worked out to this point in time. While most, if not all, of Keith Smart's decisions seem highly questionable, I don't blame him one bit for limiting Tyreke's PT and not catering to him in the manner Paul Westphal did. Just my opinion.
Keith Smart Kings with Tyreke Evans at PG: 8-14 (8 Home games 14 Away)
Keith Smart Kings with Isaiah Thomas at PG: 10-24 (20 Home Games 14 Away)
Keith Smart coaching record: 63-115 .356
THESE are the things this fantastically stupid franchise is going to lose a talent like Evans over? All I can say is we deserve whatever we get.
Keith Smart Kings with Isaiah Thomas at PG: 10-24 (20 Home Games 14 Away)
Keith Smart coaching record: 63-115 .356
THESE are the things this fantastically stupid franchise is going to lose a talent like Evans over? All I can say is we deserve whatever we get.
Tyrekes inability to shoot the ball is/will be his downfall here. You cant give a guy with elite driving ability, with average court vision and passing ability/ bball iq the reigns to a team. All the great ball handling sg's have on thing in common, great court vision and bball iq (Wade, Jordan, Bryant etc.). Tyreke operates at one speed and has tunnel vision when driving. When the other teams knows you cant throw the ball into an ocean, all they have to do is pack the paint because they know Tyreke can't get his teammates good looks consistently. Tyreke had one great season on a terrible team that gave the ball to him exclusively, since then its all potential and no improvement. This organization hasn't done Tyreke any favors, but improving your jumpshot has nothing to do with a bad franchise, its squarely on the player.
People have started rather ridiculously overrating the cort vision of otehr SG types in order to justify the Tyreke stupidity. Jordan yes. Jordan was the best player of all time. The rest? Pass well for SGs. As does Tyreke. He sets guys up ALL THE TIME. ALL THE TIME. People either aren't watching or don't want to watch. Its embarrassing when alleged fans of the Sacrmento Kings repeate arguments about Tyreke from the time he was a bleeping rookie. National types I expect ignorance from. When Kings fans do it...its embarrassing.
I agree with KingsFan. Describing Evans' problems as the organization and the "system" are myopic in IMO. Tyreke does some things really well, but has plenty of weaknesses that he has not been able to overcome since coming into the league. They have been exposed by playing in different positions. Talented players with strong fundamentals can do fine in any system. Evans obviously needs to work on not going at double teams and turning the ball over, shooting, intensity, moving off the ball, transition defense, and not taking plays off. He tends to go hard and then rest for awhile. He brings the ball up too slowly.
He speaks quickly with a strong dialect, and does not seem too comfortabe speaking in general. I can see how he might be reluctant to have a heart to heart with Smart or other members of the management. Evans can go to the hoop on breaks and in the half-court like no one else. He has started to use his left hand. He makes better decisions about when to shoot. He is better on pick and rolls, and backdoor plays. His defense can be very good. He is strong for a guard and is a good rebounder. I like Evans, but he needs to realize that winning will make a lot of the Kings internal problems seem moot. It is unreasonable to blame other people for his short-comings.
He speaks quickly with a strong dialect, and does not seem too comfortabe speaking in general. I can see how he might be reluctant to have a heart to heart with Smart or other members of the management. Evans can go to the hoop on breaks and in the half-court like no one else. He has started to use his left hand. He makes better decisions about when to shoot. He is better on pick and rolls, and backdoor plays. His defense can be very good. He is strong for a guard and is a good rebounder. I like Evans, but he needs to realize that winning will make a lot of the Kings internal problems seem moot. It is unreasonable to blame other people for his short-comings.
I understand why he'd be unhappy being moved out of position (at SF). However, a big part of the reason the move even happened is because he hasn't developed into the PG the team envisioned and his shot still isn't consistent enough to solidify him at the SG position. And it just so happens that 2 of the teams more talented players really can only play the PG and SG positions (Thomas and Thorton). Is Tyreke a better 2-guard than Thornton? No way. Is Tyreke a better PG than Thomas? Yes, but not by a ton. Tyreke should be starting, but, as I said, would have avoided this problem if he had developed to the point many thought he'd be at during his 3rd season in the league.
I understand that the numbers posted support your POV. However, they are of a small sample size AND, as you point out, have come during the tenure of coach who practically everybody on this board highly questions.
What about last season? Tyreke was playing under the same coach he played under during his rookie season and was playing the same position. He also was playing with a rookie big man that was near the vicinity of averaging a double-double. Did his play improve? Did the team's record improve?
How about the first 7 games of this season under Westphal? Did Tyreke look drastically improved?
Tyreke looks to be the same player that entered the league in 2009, except that the opponent knows how to defend him now and he hasn't been able to adjust. If he had been able to make a jump similarly to the development Cousins has shown this season, we wouldn't be having this discussion. That's all on Tyreke. He still fades back on his jumper, still can't hit it consistently, and still over-dribbles. Admittedly, his jumper has looked better in recent weeks since working with the new shooting coach, but that's the only improvement I've seen the past year and a half.
I'm not going to question his work ethic as I have no idea what he does or doesn't do during the off-season or whether he is a hard worker during the season. I'm only judging by what I've seen on the court and he is far, far behind what I expected him to be. I really thought the kid would make a jump like Derrick Rose. He has that kind of talent, IMO. Perhaps I'm expecting too much of him, but that's what I saw coming out of college and during his rookie season.
What about last season? Tyreke was playing under the same coach he played under during his rookie season and was playing the same position. He also was playing with a rookie big man that was near the vicinity of averaging a double-double. Did his play improve? Did the team's record improve?
How about the first 7 games of this season under Westphal? Did Tyreke look drastically improved?
Tyreke looks to be the same player that entered the league in 2009, except that the opponent knows how to defend him now and he hasn't been able to adjust. If he had been able to make a jump similarly to the development Cousins has shown this season, we wouldn't be having this discussion. That's all on Tyreke. He still fades back on his jumper, still can't hit it consistently, and still over-dribbles. Admittedly, his jumper has looked better in recent weeks since working with the new shooting coach, but that's the only improvement I've seen the past year and a half.
I'm not going to question his work ethic as I have no idea what he does or doesn't do during the off-season or whether he is a hard worker during the season. I'm only judging by what I've seen on the court and he is far, far behind what I expected him to be. I really thought the kid would make a jump like Derrick Rose. He has that kind of talent, IMO. Perhaps I'm expecting too much of him, but that's what I saw coming out of college and during his rookie season.
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he KNOWS where his teammates are when he draws a crowd, does he always pass it to them? no because he is an all time great scorer, but his court awareness is elite, and has always averaged between 5 and 6 assists. Tyreke is not good enough to ignore teammates, and sometimes he doesn't even see them, just puts his head down and attacks the rim and hopes for the best. Tyreke does make plays for his teammates at times, but for someone that has no offensive game outside of 4 ft, he would need to be an elite playmaker to offset his lack of offensive arsenal(What Rondo has).
Tyreke's ceiling if he gets a mid range jumphsot is Russel Westbrook with less explosion but slightly better playmaking. If tyreke doesn't learn to shoot, he is John Salmons with no jumpshot. I want Tyreke to suceed, but some of you defend him like he is an elite player already. At this point he is all potential now going into his fourth NBA season. When you see no improvement over that time, its warranted to criticize. If in 2 years Cousins still has no semblance of a post game, and still has dunce fouls, i will criticize him too.
Tyreke's ceiling if he gets a mid range jumphsot is Russel Westbrook with less explosion but slightly better playmaking. If tyreke doesn't learn to shoot, he is John Salmons with no jumpshot. I want Tyreke to suceed, but some of you defend him like he is an elite player already. At this point he is all potential now going into his fourth NBA season. When you see no improvement over that time, its warranted to criticize. If in 2 years Cousins still has no semblance of a post game, and still has dunce fouls, i will criticize him too.
The only reason Kobe passes the ball is because if he shot it every time down the floor than the other team would play 5 on 1 instead of just 3 on 1. If you're trying to argue that Tyreke is guilty of ignoring his teammates while he drives to the basket, why would you even bring up a guy who is notorious for ignoring his teammates so he can play hero ball in the fourth quarter? His career assist average is 4.7 which is right about where Tyreke is at this season playing SF for half the season and barely touching the ball. And he's had 15 years to work on his game. In his third season Kobe was playing with the greatest center of our generation and he would routinely freeze him out to shoot contested air-balls.
And John Salmons? You're going to go there? Look, I've never said that Tyreke doesn't need to improve. I'm not defending him as if his lack of performance this year is entirely on the coaching staff. But I think it's been pretty obvious this season that Tyreke has not been put in a position to succeed and his frustration over that has been at least as much of an impediment as his still shaky jumpshot. A guy like Donte Greene is all potential. Hassan Whiteside is all potential. Despite his faults, Tyreke has been pretty damn productive. In fact, the ironic thing about the whole 20-5-5 mark is that it seems to have elevated expectations to such a degree that some Kings fans won't be happy with Tyreke until he becomes the next Oscar Robertson.
Lets say he has regressed since his rookie season for whatever reason, does that mean he already hit his peak as an athlete at age 20? Does that mean he won't ever get better? Maybe he'll never be the player you and others imagined him turning out to be, but the big O himself said we're misusing him this year. Put him in a role that takes advantage of what he can do and even if all he does with it is maintain his current average of 18-5-5 for the next 10 years he'll still be one of the best guards in the league and well worth keeping on the team.
And John Salmons? You're going to go there? Look, I've never said that Tyreke doesn't need to improve. I'm not defending him as if his lack of performance this year is entirely on the coaching staff. But I think it's been pretty obvious this season that Tyreke has not been put in a position to succeed and his frustration over that has been at least as much of an impediment as his still shaky jumpshot. A guy like Donte Greene is all potential. Hassan Whiteside is all potential. Despite his faults, Tyreke has been pretty damn productive. In fact, the ironic thing about the whole 20-5-5 mark is that it seems to have elevated expectations to such a degree that some Kings fans won't be happy with Tyreke until he becomes the next Oscar Robertson.
Lets say he has regressed since his rookie season for whatever reason, does that mean he already hit his peak as an athlete at age 20? Does that mean he won't ever get better? Maybe he'll never be the player you and others imagined him turning out to be, but the big O himself said we're misusing him this year. Put him in a role that takes advantage of what he can do and even if all he does with it is maintain his current average of 18-5-5 for the next 10 years he'll still be one of the best guards in the league and well worth keeping on the team.
Reke can't get his teammates good looks consistently? Right now he gets them too many looks instead of being more aggressive himself. Tunnel vision? Right now IT has considerably worse tunnel visions than Reke, as apparently Reke can play 30 mins next to him, and IT doesn't realize he's out there on the court. IT rarely notices MT as well. Reke passes too much, yet rarely, if ever gets the ball back. If Reke ever wants to shoot again, the biggest key on his part is NOT passing to IT, who has the stickiest fingers on this team.
BTW, his one great season on a terrible team....that team had a higher winning % with far less talent then whatever it is Smart is attempting to do with IT and two other guards in the lineup.
Basically, you've shown you have no clue what you're watching. One, to act like Reke has tunnel vision or doesn't pass is highly ridiculous. He and TWill are the most unselfish members of this team right now. Do I even need to post ast rates? Two, as has been brought up a few times, with Reke at point under Westy, surrounded by far less talent, we were winning at a higher % than this mess with IT at point. It's a fabricated myth that we're better with the ball in IT's hands.
I could just turn this around and ask you why we're better with a tunnel vision, one-speed pg who can't throw the ball in the ocean surrounded by Hawes/JT/Noc/Omri/Beno, than we are with hustlin husky, future HOFer IT, surrounded with more mature Cuz/MT/Reke/JT/TWill.
That should say something. Give the ball to Reke, trade Cuz for Hawes, trade MT for Omri, trade IT for Beno(yes, future HOFer IT for Beno), and bring Westphal back, and we've improved upon where we are now, based off the what we know of the last 3 years. There's nothing wrong with that scenario with you!?
BTW, his one great season on a terrible team....that team had a higher winning % with far less talent then whatever it is Smart is attempting to do with IT and two other guards in the lineup.
Basically, you've shown you have no clue what you're watching. One, to act like Reke has tunnel vision or doesn't pass is highly ridiculous. He and TWill are the most unselfish members of this team right now. Do I even need to post ast rates? Two, as has been brought up a few times, with Reke at point under Westy, surrounded by far less talent, we were winning at a higher % than this mess with IT at point. It's a fabricated myth that we're better with the ball in IT's hands.
I could just turn this around and ask you why we're better with a tunnel vision, one-speed pg who can't throw the ball in the ocean surrounded by Hawes/JT/Noc/Omri/Beno, than we are with hustlin husky, future HOFer IT, surrounded with more mature Cuz/MT/Reke/JT/TWill.
That should say something. Give the ball to Reke, trade Cuz for Hawes, trade MT for Omri, trade IT for Beno(yes, future HOFer IT for Beno), and bring Westphal back, and we've improved upon where we are now, based off the what we know of the last 3 years. There's nothing wrong with that scenario with you!?
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Thank you. It's pretty much how I feel, too. Tyreke Evans is not a player to be tossed out with yesterday's trash.
Passions run very strongly on both sides of the coin, but at the end of the day Evans has tried to do everything asked of him, even though he never knows from day to day what his role is or who he will be working with. He knows there are things he needs to work on but for some to continue to act as though he just refuses to see that is just wrong.
Passions run very strongly on both sides of the coin, but at the end of the day Evans has tried to do everything asked of him, even though he never knows from day to day what his role is or who he will be working with. He knows there are things he needs to work on but for some to continue to act as though he just refuses to see that is just wrong.
This is one of the most ridiculous posts I have ever seen on this forum. IT has considerably worse tunnel vision than Tyreke? Are you serious? Do you even watch Kings games? IT EASILY has the best court vision on the team. He rarely notices Thornton or Tyreke? Come on, man. IT has the stickiest fingers on the team? Dude, what you are saying is absolutely crazy talk. You are more ridiculous than the super anti-Tyreke people of the last few seasons.
Why the hell do people forget that Tyreke was not good at all when he was played at PG this season? At PG, he averaged 16.8 ppg on 41.5% shooting, 5 assists, 4.8 rebounds, and 3 turnovers per game. Those are not good numbers at all, but people seem to have some crazy memory-changing problem where they think Tyreke played amazing when he was at PG. In reality, he was not good. Not good at all.
Why the hell do people forget that Tyreke was not good at all when he was played at PG this season? At PG, he averaged 16.8 ppg on 41.5% shooting, 5 assists, 4.8 rebounds, and 3 turnovers per game. Those are not good numbers at all, but people seem to have some crazy memory-changing problem where they think Tyreke played amazing when he was at PG. In reality, he was not good. Not good at all.
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If I was Tyreke, I would not be happy too. You can argue all you want that he is not a PG and all that, but it is still his best position right now and the team did MUCH better with him starting at PG than Isaiah Thomas. Just look at our record. That's the thing that is so frustrating. You play him out of position and not only does Tyreke does worse, the TEAM also does worse!
The list of all the players Tyreke failed to make better in his first two seasons, along with current wherabouts:
Hilton Armstrong -- out of league
John Brockman -- averaging 1.1pts a game in 6.1min for Milwaulkee
Omri Casspi -- averaging 7.1pts a game on .406 shooting for Cleveland. Lost starting spot.
Samuel Dalembert -- averaging 7.6pts a game as platoon starter for Houston
Joey Dorsey -- out of league
Spencer Hawes -- after hot start, got hurt, currently averaging 9.5pts a game for Philly
Luther Head -- out of league
Darnell Jackson -- out of league
Pooh Jeter -- out of league
Carl Landry -- averaging 12.7pts off the bench for 20win team in New Orelans.
Kevin Martin -- averaging 17ppg on.413 shooting for Houston. Oh, and he's hurt again
Desmond Mason -- out of league
Sean May -- out of league
Dominic McGuire -- averaging 3.3pts in 17.2min in Golden State
Andres Nocioni -- out of league
Sergio Rodriques -- out of league
Jermaine Taylor -- out of league
Garret Temple -- out of league
Kenny Thomas -- out of league
Ime Udoka -- out of league
Beno Udrih -- averaging 5.9pts a game in 17.9min off the bench for Milwaulkee
Antoine Wright -- out of league
Now
1) I am going to start to SHOUT THIS: we were a better team THIS season with Tyreke running the point than we have been since Isaiah took over for all this smallball nonsense.
2) and above is a list of all the guys not currently on the team who Tyreke had to play with in his first two years. WHO EXACTLY WAS HE SUPPOSED TO MAKE BETTER? And how come nobody else could make them any better either?
Hilton Armstrong -- out of league
John Brockman -- averaging 1.1pts a game in 6.1min for Milwaulkee
Omri Casspi -- averaging 7.1pts a game on .406 shooting for Cleveland. Lost starting spot.
Samuel Dalembert -- averaging 7.6pts a game as platoon starter for Houston
Joey Dorsey -- out of league
Spencer Hawes -- after hot start, got hurt, currently averaging 9.5pts a game for Philly
Luther Head -- out of league
Darnell Jackson -- out of league
Pooh Jeter -- out of league
Carl Landry -- averaging 12.7pts off the bench for 20win team in New Orelans.
Kevin Martin -- averaging 17ppg on.413 shooting for Houston. Oh, and he's hurt again
Desmond Mason -- out of league
Sean May -- out of league
Dominic McGuire -- averaging 3.3pts in 17.2min in Golden State
Andres Nocioni -- out of league
Sergio Rodriques -- out of league
Jermaine Taylor -- out of league
Garret Temple -- out of league
Kenny Thomas -- out of league
Ime Udoka -- out of league
Beno Udrih -- averaging 5.9pts a game in 17.9min off the bench for Milwaulkee
Antoine Wright -- out of league
Now
1) I am going to start to SHOUT THIS: we were a better team THIS season with Tyreke running the point than we have been since Isaiah took over for all this smallball nonsense.
2) and above is a list of all the guys not currently on the team who Tyreke had to play with in his first two years. WHO EXACTLY WAS HE SUPPOSED TO MAKE BETTER? And how come nobody else could make them any better either?
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