Tyreke's lack of progression

[Section 101]

The taking a charge argument is absurd. Evans took 8 offensive fouls last year. 5 less than Kobe and the same number as Tony Allen, both of whom were NBA All-defensive guards last year. Evans takes charges at the same rate as every other good guard defender in the league. Of course you are probably just going to ignore my so called stats.

Taking 8 offensive fouls does not equal taking 8 charges. I think he took 2 last year. The offensive foul could have been using the off arm on a drive, pushing off, setting an illegal pick or any number of other things besides a charge. The point is he goes for steals instead of getting in a good defensive position. He gambles and loses more than he wins.

Allen played 1400 minutes last year, Evans played 2100 minutes.

Oh, where did you get the 8 offensive fouls last year info? I looked a few weeks ago and most sites haven't had the stats the past few years.

 

[Section 101]

Frankly taking charges is often a sign that a guy CAN'T defend. Its a give up play. If you have size, and length, and good hands you want to make a play on the ball if you can. If you don't have those things you put your hands down and try to take a charge, but as soon as you commit to that you stop playing defense and depend on the refs. You can't play the ball. You can't move much. Most top defenders rarely resort to it.

So I guess Varejao isn't a top defender.

Yes what you are saying is true when defending your own man, but taking a charge can be an important part of help defense especially for a small against a big who can't get up to defend a shot.

 

[Section 101]

If you have a natural instinct for something, do it. If you don't have a natural instinct, don't do it but try to add it to your game. Evans is not Cousins nor is Cousins like Evans. I can't prove this but I feel fairly confident that the ability to do ANY skill in ANY sport is genetic to some point. It's a strength or a weakness to be made up for with another strength. You just hope that the strengths outway the weaknesses.

This topic of whether Tyreke takes charges or not is a very narrow topic in discussing a player's defensive ability and seems a bit odd.

Oh I agree. But my problems is when you see IT or Jimmer step up to take a charge and Evans in the same position moves out of the way and swats at the ball.

 

[Larry David]

I agree. The difference is Tyreke has actually shown he can be a star in this league.

There is a difference between a guy that can put up numbers, but can't play winning basketball and a star player that can lead a team to wins.

Three years in, Tyreke should be further along if he's going to be a "star." At this point, he looks more like a 2nd guy. I don't need my second guy dominating the ball and killing the flow of the offense.

Over the past three years, they've given him so much rope ... that they can't get it all back to help him become the player he should be. More like a Manu than an DRose. I think Evans will be a great second fiddle for the team that trades for him and makes him a two next to a point that can shoot and pass. I just don't think he will become that player here. Both in terms of the roster and trying to claw back the rope.

 

[kingsboi]

I think what we are seeing now is what Tyreke is going to be, IMO. I'm not saying he's peaked yet but he's just about there unless he makes leaps and bounds improvements in consistency and jumpshooting ability.

 

[Arkitect]

There is a difference between a guy that can put up numbers, but can't play winning basketball and a star player that can lead a team to wins.

Three years in, Tyreke should be further along if he's going to be a "star." At this point, he looks more like a 2nd guy. I don't need my second guy dominating the ball and killing the flow of the offense.

Over the past three years, they've given him so much rope ... that they can't get it all back to help him become the player he should be. More like a Manu than an DRose. I think Evans will be a great second fiddle for the team that trades for him and makes him a two next to a point that can shoot and pass. I just don't think he will become that player here. Both in terms of the roster and trying to claw back the rope.

I think the 2nd guy can certainly be a ball dominant guard. I have felt for a long time that ultimately DMC is going to to be our No.1 guy and Reke is the No. 2. Both of these guys are unique and physically dominant and both are still very young. In general, having a franchise big and ball dominant guard is a winning combination. Shaq/Kobe, Dwade/Shaq, Duncan/Parker, Kobe/Gasol, etc.

Hopefully DMC develops a dominant low post game and Reke develops a jump shot. One of our many, many problems is that our 2 main stars shoot a relatively low percentage. If Reke could shoot better and can hit the 3 consistenly, he could easily be around .46 - .48 FG% wise. And if DMC develops a more reliable low post game, he will be around .50 - . 52 FG%. If/when our two stars are able to increase the rate at which they score points, we will win many games.

Look, you can nitpick on the weaknesses of Tyreke. But it's not like he is a bust here. People can complain all they want about Tyrekes game, but the fact is players like him generally help your team win. If anything, he overachieved his rookie year and set the bar too high for himself. We would have lost more games this year if we did not have Reke. Even though we have had a difficult start to the year, we are currently on pace to win 5 more games than we did last year.

 

[swisshh]

I reached my breaking point with Reke last night.

Maybe he can be a second guy, but if its second to Cousins then the team needs to get a real PG who can feed Cousins. Management keeps acting like a PG doesn't matter. It's two bad things keeping a bad thing going.

And if Reke is going to be a second guy, he needs to fix that shooting form. Tyreke is lucky he was not drafted in a large market or he'd be getting killed for bringing back the same broken shooting form again and again.

Ultimately, I am worried there is just too much he doesn't get. His defense vs Lin was atrocious. It's like his limited offensive understanding informs his defensive mentality. Since Lin wasn't putting up a lot of shots, Reke felt fine to just let him run around, as though he had no clue of the damage it was doing. Given his limited offensive game, I wouldn't be surprised if he truly didn't see the damage it was doing. He said something like "seems everyone Lin passed it to made shots." You know why Reke? Because he was delivering passes on time and in stride. Not splurting out weak kickouts that stumble towards their target.

If I heard management say they were pushing him towards shooting and off the ball movement and making him a shooting guard it would sound like the siren call of angels to me.

Will it happen? Are they smart enough? Have they just choked themselves on their own repeated bull****? I have no faith that they know.

 

[TehSwimGuy]

Tyreke will never be great in the NBA unless he fixes his jumpshot. The fade-away hinders him incredibly. It's why they go on highlight reels, because they're so hard to make. If he fixes it - whole new story.

 

[Arkitect]

I reached my breaking point with Reke last night.

Maybe he can be a second guy, but if its second to Cousins then the team needs to get a real PG who can feed Cousins. Management keeps acting like a PG doesn't matter. It's two bad things keeping a bad thing going.

And if Reke is going to be a second guy, he needs to fix that shooting form. Tyreke is lucky he was not drafted in a large market or he'd be getting killed for bringing back the same broken shooting form again and again.

Ultimately, I am worried there is just too much he doesn't get. His defense vs Lin was atrocious. It's like his limited offensive understanding informs his defensive mentality. Since Lin wasn't putting up a lot of shots, Reke felt fine to just let him run around, as though he had no clue of the damage it was doing. Given his limited offensive game, I wouldn't be surprised if he truly didn't see the damage it was doing. He said something like "seems everyone Lin passed it to made shots." You know why Reke? Because he was delivering passes on time and in stride. Not splurting out weak kickouts that stumble towards their target.

If I heard management say they were pushing him towards shooting and off the ball movement and making him a shooting guard it would sound like the siren call of angels to me.

Will it happen? Are they smart enough? Have they just choked themselves on their own repeated bull****? I have no faith that they know.

You want our ball dominant, excellent at getting to the rim, can't shoot guard to be pushed off the ball and made to shoot? How is that going to help anything? Even if we got a PG who could make pretty passes to Cousins(who btw is already one of the best centers in league without that PG), how is taking our 2nd best guy and not using any of his strengths and all of his weaknesses a good idea?

 

[Larry David]

You want our ball dominant, excellent at getting to the rim, can't shoot guard to be pushed off the ball and made to shoot? How is that going to help anything? Even if we got a PG who could make pretty passes to Cousins(who btw is already one of the best centers in league without that PG), how is taking our 2nd best guy and not using any of his strengths and all of his weaknesses a good idea?

If it's between a team that can't win and seeing if he can become more like Manu or a better Jerry Stackhouse, I know how I vote.

This isn't just how best to use Evans. It's how to win.

 

[Hadlowe]

You want our ball dominant, excellent at getting to the rim, can't shoot guard to be pushed off the ball and made to shoot? How is that going to help anything? Even if we got a PG who could make pretty passes to Cousins(who btw is already one of the best centers in league without that PG), how is taking our 2nd best guy and not using any of his strengths and all of his weaknesses a good idea?

I dislike the idea of Evans as an outside threat. He's an excellent slasher, meaning that he needs to get the ball on cuts to the rim. Rather than adding a jumpshot, a good post-up game would complement his size and strength against smaller guards.

And, yes, a good point guard can make a a half-decent slashing wing look like an all-star.

And Cousins just gets better with a guard distributing him the ball when he's clear to finish. Feeding him in the post is one thing, getting him a wide open look in the post is another thing entirely.

 

[Bricklayer]

I reached my breaking point with Reke last night.

Oh please.

 

[Bricklayer]

If it's between a team that can't win and seeing if he can become more like Manu or a better Jerry Stackhouse, I know how I vote.

This isn't just how best to use Evans. It's how to win.

That's not how to win.

 

[Section 101]

You want our ball dominant, excellent at getting to the rim, can't shoot guard to be pushed off the ball and made to shoot? How is that going to help anything? Even if we got a PG who could make pretty passes to Cousins(who btw is already one of the best centers in league without that PG), how is taking our 2nd best guy and not using any of his strengths and all of his weaknesses a good idea?

Maybe if he actually could score when getting to the rim it would be different. Stop laying up weak stuff and dunk it more. We've seen him do it before, he needs to do it more and initiate some contact instead of shying away from it.

 

[Kingster]

Indeed, I was thinking to myself when Tyreke did not defend that one play the right way -- gee his overall defense is horrible!

Actually I wasn't, but then again Tyreke never stole my girl or pissed in my Wheaties or whatever the hell happened between you two. Tyreke's overall horrible defense oddly is somehow invisible to any known statistical measure for us. You can't find it in raw stats, where he's an upper echelon steals/block/rebound guard, or defensive +/- where we are 3pts points better on defense per 100 possessions with him, or in opponent production, where he's 3rd ont the team, or anywhere else. Its probably that high basketball IQ you always credit him with that allows him to sneakily be horrible without any evidence of it in the stats or noticed by the coaches. Perhaps you should send them a memo and out the sneaky bastard.

Now back in the real world, a place many Kings fans have unfortunately abandoned because they are just in so much pain they can't stand it and all that, what you have is a star player who learned during his rookie season not to pick up cheapie fouls that occasionally limited him. Hence you don't see him scrambling around slapping at every guy who goes by. He plays in "no man's land", osometimes known as good defensive positon, so that he can both close out with his length, or dive back and help inside. And it keeps him wihtin range to help on the boards in wayx he could not if he was stuck out at the three point line. End result is that he rarely gets lit up, and occasionally can really get into guys and disrupt them.

Now last night was not one of his better defensive games. But then again, my fatigue diagnosis plays into that. Didn't look focused early, and he was sluggish. He also leaked out on a couple of plays looking for easy hoops, something he rarely does and that I took as signs that of fatigue/laziness. It wasn't a banner game. And of course he let Landry sneak back door on him, which proves he is horrible.

Yeah, there's too much of that fatigue disease going around. Got a pill for that?.....I'm just shocked that you would use the word "laziness" in referencing Tyreke. Positively abundantly shocked. I guess young guys like Tyreke are intrinsically lazy. Like the adolescent that can't get out of bed in the morning. Ahh, he'll grow out of it. It's inevitable...right?

 

[Bricklayer]

Maybe if he actually could score when getting to the rim it would be different. Stop laying up weak stuff and dunk it more. We've seen him do it before, he needs to do it more and initiate some contact instead of shying away from it.

Editors note: Tyreke is 11th in the league in FGM at the rim, and 4th amongst guards behind Marshon Brooks, Westbrook, and Wade. His 62.4% finshig percentage in there is better than Westbroo'ks 62.2% or Wall's 57.1%, but slightly behind Rose's 63.2%. Put please, as always, let's hold him to an impossible standard.

 

[Arkitect]

Maybe if he actually could score when getting to the rim it would be different. Stop laying up weak stuff and dunk it more. We've seen him do it before, he needs to do it more and initiate some contact instead of shying away from it.

I don't know if has the explosiveness to do it consistently. He is not Blake Griffin in their. But obviously adding a left would help. As would adding a pullup jumper. And probably a little floater. Tyreke has so much more he can add to his game and even adding one thing here or there would have a drastic improvement on him as a player. As I have pointed out in the past everyone who wants to give up on Reke now is foolish and impatient. He needs to add just one or two more things to his game to be unstoppable. And 23 year old players who should be finishing up their senior years in college generally are able to still add something to their games. Would you rather wait and see if he is able to do that on this team or watch him tear up the league on some other team when he adds a little bit to his game?

 

[Larry David]

That's not how to win.

Nor is keeping him as your primary ball handler.

 

[Bricklayer]

Yeah, there's too much of that fatigue disease going around. Got a pill for that?.....I'm just shocked that you would use the word "laziness" in referencing Tyreke. Positively abundantly shocked. I guess young guys like Tyreke are intrinsically lazy. Like the adolescent that can't get out of bed in the morning. Ahh, he'll grow out of it. It's inevitable...right?

These sorts of posts are ridiuclous. I am sure you have never been tired before, and were of course perfectly on task right through your college age years. Most angry guys on the internet seem to have been perfect during those years. Probably explains their intentional obtuseness about the obvious human factors in play aongst their lessers.

Ah, I remember second semester of my senior year in college well, which is where Reke would be if he had stayed. Had myself a hot girlfriend who resembled Sandra Bullock, had intentionally taken a light load of classes, none before 1:00 in the afternoon, and was living in an offcampus frathouse adjunct where we threw big parties every few weeks. The weather was gorgeous, there is this big spring festival/music festival/72 hour party they hold every year at Penn called Spring Fling, and we wandered through it catching bands, hanging out at various bars and people's apartments. Took a trip out to this beautiful little town in the Pennsylvania heartland near where my girl had grown up. Good times. But of course I, like every person that age, was entirely on task at all times, got my proper 8 hours sleep every night, and in general am now an intolerant ******* about any kid who might just act a bit like a kid in some ways and not quite have the organization and focus of a 35yr old yet.

 

[upinsmoke]

Im not saying its Evans fault we suck that blame cleary falls on the front office and the penny-pinching Magoofs. That being said Cuz has proved he can anchor the franchise for years hell he could even be a HOF talent and the team should be structured to maximize his talents does that mean trading Evans? IMO yes

 

[Bricklayer]

Im not saying its Evans fault we suck that blame cleary falls on the front office and the penny-pinching Magoofs. That being said Cuz has proved he can anchor the franchise for years hell he could even be a HOF talent and the team should be structured to maximize his talents does that mean trading Evans? IMO yes

Because so many centers have won without the great slashing wingman right?

Cousins may well end up being our #1. If he is, the #2 you pair with him is proabably going to look an awful lot like Reke.

 

[Glenn]

Because so many centers have won without the great slashing wingman right?

Cousins may well end up being our #1. If he is, the #2 you pair with him is proabably going to look an awful lot like Reke.

Probably. And as almost any idiot can get the ball to a well posted up Cuz, this need for a Jeremy Lin or Rick Rubio doesn't seem so pressing. We need a guy paired with Cuz who can create a duo that is scary to any other team in the league and I thought we had it last year already. I think the man standing next to Cuz may be as important to the team as Tyreke but only to the extent that he better be better than average. JT is OK, Daly was better, Ibaka would be cool, and Dwight would be heaven.

I liked Cuz and Daly especially when you consider this was Cuz's rookie year and Daly came to the team injured and started about half way through the season. Imagine them with a more experienced Cuz and a Daly or similar with a few years playing next to Cuz.

I'm not hijacking the thread but trying to say that the future of the Kings doesn't depend on a quick little PG.

 

[Kings Faithful]

Because so many centers have won without the great slashing wingman right?

Cousins may well end up being our #1. If he is, the #2 you pair with him is proabably going to look an awful lot like Reke.

Which is why they aren't the problem. People who are blaming reke for his shortcomings and accusing him of not being a star because he is too inconsistent need to think about it. Most stars who are consistent night in and night out have teams around them to take off some of the load. We don't have that so teams feel perfectly fine collapsing on Reke everytime he touches the ball...we aside from thorton we don't really have anyone that would make them think twice about doing that. If we took the core team of Cousins, Thorton, Thompson, and Tyreke, throw in a shot blocker and 2 or 3 mike miller/dorell wright/Jason Kapono/Steve Novak/ Kyle Korver/ ect... type players and we would be pretty darn good. Getting rid of Dally was a huge mistake though.

 

[upinsmoke]

Right glen but were talking about Tyreke and whether or not his style of play should be a part of the team going forward. Someone has to be moved Evans or Thornton and i vote Evans.

 

[TehSwimGuy]

I don't know if has the explosiveness to do it consistently. He is not Blake Griffin in their. But obviously adding a left would help. As would adding a pullup jumper. And probably a little floater. Tyreke has so much more he can add to his game and even adding one thing here or there would have a drastic improvement on him as a player. As I have pointed out in the past everyone who wants to give up on Reke now is foolish and impatient. He needs to add just one or two more things to his game to be unstoppable. And 23 year old players who should be finishing up their senior years in college generally are able to still add something to their games. Would you rather wait and see if he is able to do that on this team or watch him tear up the league on some other team when he adds a little bit to his game?

Personally, I'd rather wait and see, but my question is still when is he going to fix his jumpshot? I'm seriously hoping he gets something going, at least over the summer before season starts, because there's no way he doesn't know how much that kills him.

He would improve dramatically with a midrange jumper that was more accurate.

 

[Kingsguy881]

Im not saying its Evans fault we suck that blame cleary falls on the front office and the penny-pinching Magoofs. That being said Cuz has proved he can anchor the franchise for years hell he could even be a HOF talent and the team should be structured to maximize his talents does that mean trading Evans? IMO yes

PASS ME SOME OF THAT ISH!!!!! Gotta be the best smoke ever...

 

[Kingsguy881]

Right glen but were talking about Tyreke and whether or not his style of play should be a part of the team going forward. Someone has to be moved Evans or Thornton and i vote Evans.

<comments removed because of pending infraction they would have caused>

 

[mr. moustache]

I thought Tyreke would be better than he is by now, but honestly, he's the least of our trouble. Starting SF, that position that was our worst last year, still is.

Also, our bench is abysmal.

This last offseason was atrocious.

 

[mac]

Right glen but were talking about Tyreke and whether or not his style of play should be a part of the team going forward. Someone has to be moved Evans or Thornton and i vote Evans.

Whoa hold your horses! I don't disagree about Cousins' talent, but he hasn't done enough to show he's much better than Tyreke. You wanna talk about HOF Center right?

Which HOF Center:
- Has no back to the basket game, and constantly gets his post shots swatted in his face?
- Scores mainly off offensive rebound, 2nd chance opportunities? (which by the way, would go down a lot if our team was any good. If we weren't the worst shooting team in the league Cousins' numbers would easily be down in the rpg and ppg department)
- Goes 1 on 1 dribbling from the free throw line?
- Can't set good screens or finish strong at the basket?
- Commits loads of fouls and turns the ball over a lot?
- Isn't very good on defense?

BUT BUT Cousins is only in his 2nd year under a new head coach! His first coach didn't teach him anything and was horrible! Cousins would only be in his 3rd year in college! What do youngsters know about working hard and stuff? He's been so much better under Smart! Give him some time and he'll prove that he can help us win games!

Hope you get the idea.

 

[Glenn]

Right glen but were talking about Tyreke and whether or not his style of play should be a part of the team going forward. Someone has to be moved Evans or Thornton and i vote Evans.

Totally disagree as my note covered why I didn't think Tyreke's style was hurting us nor was it the most important move this team to be made. I was addressing a team need and not anyone's particular prejudice about what a PG should be like. You must have missed the point.