All these threads about tyreke and Thornton and cuz needs to play better around rim get on my nerves. These guys are contributing. Let's talk about the ones that aren't. Hickson hayes Garcia outlaw and salmons rest get a break because of playing time. Every time Hayes touches the ball on offense or when a ball bounces off hicksons antamanthium hands I want to suck on the business end of .45. Outlaw please just go away and pretend this never happens. Cisco just dress in a suit and be motivational speaker because your game has turned to rubbish. Now salmons he knows his role he just hasn't accepted it. He needs to be on bench only he won't accept that either donte continues to out play him with 1/4 of the min. Shout out to jimmer. You got drafted to shoot so freakin shoot nobody expects you to be Stockton. Air balling wide open shots really?
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I wondered how long it would take for this thread to rise. No reasonable person can expect this team to win with our "big three" (who aren't that big of a big three yet, but that's a discussion for another thread) reliably contributing 60 points a game without any help from the bench.
Seriously. There needs to be more bench support. Smart can't afford to keep any of them on the bench for a reasonable amount of time without having things go down the crapper, so what you get are tired legs and mental mistakes over the long haul.
My thoughts:
1. Salmons needs to be benched - Donte needs to start.
I don't know how this can't be any more clear to Smart. Donte brings defense, and hustle. I'm OK with the points not being there if he's making things easier for his teammates on the opposite end of the floor and taking his shots within the motions of the offense. It's not his style to just dribble-dribble-dribble-shoot anyway, so that's all good.
2. Better veteran presence - bring in better vets.
Garcia and Hayes are good examples of what vets can do. They calm things down. They give an extra set of directions at practices. Unfortunately, our vets should both be in a Mateen role at the end of the bench, but this is what we have to deal with. AK47 would have been great, because the pressure to contribute goes to a player that knows how to do that effectively within his abilities. We have players that don't quite yet know how to do that, which brings me to...
4. Kids.
We're still the youngest team in the league. How is that possible? What you're seeing is what growth looks like. Maybe you didn't pay attention to the Thunder the past few years, and I can understand. It was pretty ugly for a while, but with a good coach and well defined roles, things are looking way, way up for them. We're behind the learning curve, and I'm placing that all on Westphal. He could have given more structure, he could have defined roles, but he didn't. He let them "learn on their own." You can't do that in the NBA with a roster full of one-and-dones. This isn't Syracuse - you can't just accumulate talent and roll over most of the competition.
That's all for now. I have other ideas that don't really fit here.
Seriously. There needs to be more bench support. Smart can't afford to keep any of them on the bench for a reasonable amount of time without having things go down the crapper, so what you get are tired legs and mental mistakes over the long haul.
My thoughts:
1. Salmons needs to be benched - Donte needs to start.
I don't know how this can't be any more clear to Smart. Donte brings defense, and hustle. I'm OK with the points not being there if he's making things easier for his teammates on the opposite end of the floor and taking his shots within the motions of the offense. It's not his style to just dribble-dribble-dribble-shoot anyway, so that's all good.
2. Better veteran presence - bring in better vets.
Garcia and Hayes are good examples of what vets can do. They calm things down. They give an extra set of directions at practices. Unfortunately, our vets should both be in a Mateen role at the end of the bench, but this is what we have to deal with. AK47 would have been great, because the pressure to contribute goes to a player that knows how to do that effectively within his abilities. We have players that don't quite yet know how to do that, which brings me to...
4. Kids.
We're still the youngest team in the league. How is that possible? What you're seeing is what growth looks like. Maybe you didn't pay attention to the Thunder the past few years, and I can understand. It was pretty ugly for a while, but with a good coach and well defined roles, things are looking way, way up for them. We're behind the learning curve, and I'm placing that all on Westphal. He could have given more structure, he could have defined roles, but he didn't. He let them "learn on their own." You can't do that in the NBA with a roster full of one-and-dones. This isn't Syracuse - you can't just accumulate talent and roll over most of the competition.
That's all for now. I have other ideas that don't really fit here.
Garcia and Salmons should have been gone already. Salmons should have been traded as soon as we got him. It looks to be one of the worst trades Petrie ever made. Hickson has been a dissapointment. Jimmer is a rookie and gets a pass. Donte is the best of the bunch and hopefully can get more playing time, but still can't claim to be a legit starter in this league. With the exception of maybe Donte and Jimmer, they all are incidental to the Kings future. Who would have guessed that of ALL the moves in the off-season, the best move was drafting IT, the 60th pick in the draft?
PS The Cousins thread wasn't meant to be a diss on Cousins; just an open-ended question of how he can better convert under the basket. Not every question is a criticism. It may just be a question.
PS The Cousins thread wasn't meant to be a diss on Cousins; just an open-ended question of how he can better convert under the basket. Not every question is a criticism. It may just be a question.
More than Donte needs to change in the starting line up. Should be IT, Evans, Donte, JJ, Cuz with Cuz, Evans, IT, Donte, JJ being the shot selection order. That gives a bench of Jimmer, Thornton, (Outlaw, Garcia, Salmons), Hayes, JT. It's not about the starters, it's about the bench.
We lose too much rebounding when Hayes and JJ are in together. IT and Jimmer should not be on the court together unless it's caused by foul trouble.
We lose too much rebounding when Hayes and JJ are in together. IT and Jimmer should not be on the court together unless it's caused by foul trouble.
Well, so in an 8-10 man rotation you are saying everybody must contribute. There is a simple novelty to this concept that I like. It's a basketball team.
We have three very important players on the team but they personally have not claimed to be the WHOLE team. It is the fans that are demanding maybe something more than these three can offer. In fact, when these three players are out of the game, the opposition feeds on us. We are being beaten by the other team's benches and playing our "big three" large numbers of minutes in a compressed schedule might be a failed strategy because of end of stint tiredness. We don't get blown out in the first period. It's what happens after that where it gets ugly.
Look at the shooting stats. There is only one player shooting a percentage that one would expect from a man at his position and that is JT. Otherwise we have Tyreke and MT at about 40% and Jimmer, Hayes, IT, JJ, Garcia, Salmons around in the 35-38% range. Outlaw's latest statistical outburst has raised his percentage to just a tickle under 30%. We complain about our big three because that's all we have. If they don't perform, we suck. Perhaps our demands of them are misplaced or far too high because of multiple explanations.
It is unclear to me if the fault is that of these three players, the over enthusiastic expectations of fans, team dynamics, or simply the strange demands this season is placing on them. Certainly the disaster under PW at the begining of the season dug a statistical ditch or at least an aesthetic ditch that we are still trying to recover from. Certainly the opposition knows how to prepare for Tyreke but they also know how to prepare for Cousins and Thornton. The others require no special attention as they are limited in their skills.
Does this all mean that if we criticize and criticize and criticize that the team will improve? It is possible the answer is "yes" if something was demanded of the entire team. It seems that Smart has little confidence in the bench and is trying to avoid playing them. Perhaps "excuse" and "fact" are the same thing.
Perhaps the big three are playing at their best and the fault for thinking they can be better lies with us. Perhaps Tyreke will never be an All Star. Same for Thornton. Is it their fault or do they have the same excuse that the rest of the team has and it is simply that they are not that good and we need to adjust to that.
At the beginning of the season some posters were happy because our team was so deep. Ooops!
We have three very important players on the team but they personally have not claimed to be the WHOLE team. It is the fans that are demanding maybe something more than these three can offer. In fact, when these three players are out of the game, the opposition feeds on us. We are being beaten by the other team's benches and playing our "big three" large numbers of minutes in a compressed schedule might be a failed strategy because of end of stint tiredness. We don't get blown out in the first period. It's what happens after that where it gets ugly.
Look at the shooting stats. There is only one player shooting a percentage that one would expect from a man at his position and that is JT. Otherwise we have Tyreke and MT at about 40% and Jimmer, Hayes, IT, JJ, Garcia, Salmons around in the 35-38% range. Outlaw's latest statistical outburst has raised his percentage to just a tickle under 30%. We complain about our big three because that's all we have. If they don't perform, we suck. Perhaps our demands of them are misplaced or far too high because of multiple explanations.
It is unclear to me if the fault is that of these three players, the over enthusiastic expectations of fans, team dynamics, or simply the strange demands this season is placing on them. Certainly the disaster under PW at the begining of the season dug a statistical ditch or at least an aesthetic ditch that we are still trying to recover from. Certainly the opposition knows how to prepare for Tyreke but they also know how to prepare for Cousins and Thornton. The others require no special attention as they are limited in their skills.
Does this all mean that if we criticize and criticize and criticize that the team will improve? It is possible the answer is "yes" if something was demanded of the entire team. It seems that Smart has little confidence in the bench and is trying to avoid playing them. Perhaps "excuse" and "fact" are the same thing.
Perhaps the big three are playing at their best and the fault for thinking they can be better lies with us. Perhaps Tyreke will never be an All Star. Same for Thornton. Is it their fault or do they have the same excuse that the rest of the team has and it is simply that they are not that good and we need to adjust to that.
At the beginning of the season some posters were happy because our team was so deep. Ooops!
Tyreke and Thornton DO need to play better. I don't get the mindset that cuts the best players on the team slack but goes after the role players tooth and nail. The best players have to be and should be held to a higher standard because if they don't play well, you simply cannot win. They have to set the tone for the team. This is basic basketball/team sports philosophy here...
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I agree to some extent, except with JJ. I want him gone, and the last place I want him is in the starting lineup. Cousins and JT work well together. If its not broke, don't fix it. You don't put JT on the bench just to try and fix the poor rebounding of Hayes and JJ. JJ isn't a very good shooter. He has terrible hands. He forces too many shots. And he's for the most part, a rebounder of convience. Frankly, fundamenatlly, he's a mess. He appears to be a gifted athlete thats done nothing with it. Has anyone ever seen him use a post move other than a pump fake.
Right now I'd trade him to any team desperate for height, and get the most I can for him. I agree with my son. JJ would be a decent to good player on a team that constantly runs and has a point guard like Nash. But in a half court set, he flat out stinks. At least twice last night when on the floor with Cousins, he failed to rotate under the basket when Cousins rotated out to stop the pick and roll. Both times resulted in a Chandler dunk behind Cousins.
Right now I'd trade him to any team desperate for height, and get the most I can for him. I agree with my son. JJ would be a decent to good player on a team that constantly runs and has a point guard like Nash. But in a half court set, he flat out stinks. At least twice last night when on the floor with Cousins, he failed to rotate under the basket when Cousins rotated out to stop the pick and roll. Both times resulted in a Chandler dunk behind Cousins.
Probably Outlaws best game so far. Question is, can he consistently repeat that performance. I don't have the answer, but I know I liked Outlaw when he was at Portland. Until last night, he didn't seem like the same player. The NBA is all about consistency. Which, if were honest, is lacking on the current Kings team. Last night aside, Cousins has probably been the most consistent player on the team night after night. Recently, Donte has been decent to good. After that, I can't think of anyone that I go into a game thinking, I know were going to get this from him tonight. I might throw JT into the consistent group, at least on effort, and results in some area of his game.
The problem is, JT and Greene aren't going to win any games for you. They'll help keep you in games, but the winning has to come from Evans, Thornton, Salmons (Ugg) and Cousins. And out of that group, Cousins is the only one that consistently shows up most nights. And even when the others don't show up, he can singlehandedly keep you in the game. But when they don't show up, and he has a bad night, its all over.
The problem is, JT and Greene aren't going to win any games for you. They'll help keep you in games, but the winning has to come from Evans, Thornton, Salmons (Ugg) and Cousins. And out of that group, Cousins is the only one that consistently shows up most nights. And even when the others don't show up, he can singlehandedly keep you in the game. But when they don't show up, and he has a bad night, its all over.
Yep. If we can get the Portland Outlaw, then this team will be better, no doubt. I've given up on Salmons entirely. He's chosen this year to retire from what I can see. A couple of games he shows up; the rest he's MIA. They can play anybody in there other than Salmons and I'd be happy, or at least happier.
Another name to add to your list of where the winning has to come from is IT. He has shown an ability to have a big impact on games. It's a no-brainer to substitute his name for Salmons in your list at this point, and I'd at least put him in the Evans/Thornton category. Personally, I like watching him play better than either one of those guys. He's more versatile and comes to play evey night.
Another name to add to your list of where the winning has to come from is IT. He has shown an ability to have a big impact on games. It's a no-brainer to substitute his name for Salmons in your list at this point, and I'd at least put him in the Evans/Thornton category. Personally, I like watching him play better than either one of those guys. He's more versatile and comes to play evey night.
Salmons is perplexing. I would settle for the black hole who can still score mode of the past and I thought he was coming around to that but poof! it's gone. I suppose I could pick on him or get mad at him but I am just perplexed. What's wrong with him? Somebody can correct me if I am wrong but this is one bad year out of a lot of black hole who can shoot years isn't it? It can't be that he suddenly forgot how to shoot yet he can't shoot. I don't get it.
ROTD, agree with your post. Last night's difficulties started and stopped with our top three. Their hearts and minds could not persuade their bodies to do it. Are they in shape? Don't know but last night's perfor]mance seemed to indicate that they aren't.
When our top three are on we can play with anyone. When they're not we are in trouble.
When our top three are on we can play with anyone. When they're not we are in trouble.
I've heard that Salmons is physically over the hill. But he's 32. And that's pretty darned young to be over the hill in the NBA, unless he has some malady like arthitis that would speed up the aging process for a basketball player. I guess it's possible he's lost a step, but it sure seems young for that to happen. Then there's the view that becasue he was out of shape coming into the season that he hasn't been able to find a rhythm. That theory doesn't hold much water because the season is now 1/2 way over. Then there's the theory that Salmons never did want to be in Sacto. After all, the mind wants to do what the mind wants to do. If the guy really, really doesn't want to be here he can try all he wants to get "it" back, but his body is not going to be a willing accomplice. Who knows? Only the Salmons knows...
Gee, someone caught what I was saying. His shot is off. That's curious. He should hit 75% of the wide open 16 ft shots and he doesn't. I keep waiting for him to break loose and become that same old guy I never liked before. I thought he was looking good until a week ago. A whole good week and now back to this year's ugliness. He seems demoralized and lost and that's kind of the way I see Jimmer. Neither knows what they should be doing and therefore aren't playing their game in the way that is natural to them. We need him and I know everyone wants some one else but I have to believe that Smart thinks Salmons is our best SF. THAT'S scary.
Anyone, Donte should get a few more minutes and that will settle that big unknown.
Anyone, Donte should get a few more minutes and that will settle that big unknown.
That's why I'd start Donte. He doesn't need shots, has defensive bright spots but more importantly it lets Salmons be a scorer off the bench. Black hole or not, John could score at one point and his role with the starters is a jumbled mess. Just give him permission to score off the bench. If that doesn't work, send Puddleglum back to whatever gloomy place he came from.
Being the kind of player Salmons is, he's probably never going to feel completely comfortable with Reke and Thornton in the backcourt. By that i mean, Reke and Thornton's going to be taking a lot of shots. Then you have Cousins taking shots. There's not going to be a lot of shots for Salmons to take, but i get the feeling that he wants to take them.
As for the players not contributing, they're mostly role players: Garcia, Hayes, Hickson, Travis, and Greene. They can't be expected to be playing a great individual game because that's not what they do, they play a role in the team. But i think a fault here is that they're not getting put to use as much as much as and in the way that they should be. You have Garcia who is a spot up shooter, Hickson whos an athletic big, Hayes who shouldnt ever be creating his own shot, Green and Travis who can hit 3's and make dunks. They need to be put to work, and it's on our 3 main guys and our "PGs" IT and Jimmer to make that happen.
There's a point in there somewhere. I guess consistent playmaking is the key. Once that happens, i suspect our guys are going to look a lot better than they're looking right now.
As for the players not contributing, they're mostly role players: Garcia, Hayes, Hickson, Travis, and Greene. They can't be expected to be playing a great individual game because that's not what they do, they play a role in the team. But i think a fault here is that they're not getting put to use as much as much as and in the way that they should be. You have Garcia who is a spot up shooter, Hickson whos an athletic big, Hayes who shouldnt ever be creating his own shot, Green and Travis who can hit 3's and make dunks. They need to be put to work, and it's on our 3 main guys and our "PGs" IT and Jimmer to make that happen.
There's a point in there somewhere. I guess consistent playmaking is the key. Once that happens, i suspect our guys are going to look a lot better than they're looking right now.