The Lockout has arrived.

rainmaker

Hall of Famer
#1
@TrueHoop RT @KBerg_CBS: BREAKING: Owners have informed players they are locking out. #NBA #lockout

@STEIN_LINE_HQ RT @KBerg_CBS: BREAKING: Owners have informed players they are locking out. #NBA #lockout

Matt Bonner of the Spurs emerged from labor meeting: "We tried to avoid the lockout. Unfortunately, we did not reach a deal."
 

pdxKingsFan

So Ordinary That It's Truly Quite Extraordinary
Staff member
#2
What I don't get, the NFL has been intractable for months and yet no work stoppage has been announced, the NBA just wrapped up their season and draft and now we're already proclaiming the start to the season is in jeopardy?

Don't get me wrong as I think a work stoppage is extremely likely if the owners insist on a hard cap lower than the current rate, but I think this may just be gamesmanship.
 

Glenn

Hall of Famer
#3
Can a team make a trade during a lockout? I don't know why they couldn't but in case trades are stopped, the Kings trade was timely if not very clever.
 
#5
What I don't get, the NFL has been intractable for months and yet no work stoppage has been announced, the NBA just wrapped up their season and draft and now we're already proclaiming the start to the season is in jeopardy?

Don't get me wrong as I think a work stoppage is extremely likely if the owners insist on a hard cap lower than the current rate, but I think this may just be gamesmanship.
I don't think it's gamesmanship. Maybe if there appeared to be any reasonable chance of working a deal in short order, but it's always seemed like a longshot. After the free agent spending spree last summer, this was a foregone conclusion. I blame the owners for driving it to this point with their lack of discipline, but I do think the system needs serious overhaul and the players are going to have to make major concessions. It would be in their best interests to just do a deal now, even if they're giving back a lot, because they're going to give back a lot regardless. At least they'd still have a full season.
 

Warhawk

Give blood and save a life!
Staff member
#7
Can a team make a trade during a lockout? I don't know why they couldn't but in case trades are stopped, the Kings trade was timely if not very clever.
I thought I read that trades had to be completed prior to the lockout or they would have to wait for the new CBA to be completed. So yes, they were pushing to get the trade done before the lockout happened.
 
#8
What I don't get, the NFL has been intractable for months and yet no work stoppage has been announced, the NBA just wrapped up their season and draft and now we're already proclaiming the start to the season is in jeopardy?

Don't get me wrong as I think a work stoppage is extremely likely if the owners insist on a hard cap lower than the current rate, but I think this may just be gamesmanship.
Uh, the NFL is in a work stoppage. No mini camps, players arent able to workout at the team headquaters, etc. Same situation as the NBA.

Teams are not allowed to sign, trade or do anything with players.
 
#9
I thought I read that trades had to be completed prior to the lockout or they would have to wait for the new CBA to be completed. So yes, they were pushing to get the trade done before the lockout happened.
yep. Trades can still be made up until midnight eastern time when the CBA expires.
 

pdxKingsFan

So Ordinary That It's Truly Quite Extraordinary
Staff member
#10
Uh, the NFL is in a work stoppage. No mini camps, players arent able to workout at the team headquaters, etc. Same situation as the NBA.

Teams are not allowed to sign, trade or do anything with players.
You are right they are in the same situation, what I really meant is they seem to be proclaiming public optimism and billing it more as contract negotiations than using the "L" word and insisting that the pre-season and regular season could still start on time if they just get something done in the next two weeks despite the fact that seems highly unlikely and the sell by date has moved once or twice. Whereas the NBA seems to already be sending the message that missing games is already inevitable.

The main thing is that the owners are sending the message that they are playing hardball but could it backfire on them PR wise even though the players in the NBA have been coddled compared to the NFL players?
 
#11
There was a lockout in 2005. No work missed, because it only lasted about a month, and the issues weren't as extreme as they are this time. Everyone was optimistic that a deal would be done in short order, and it was. This time, the rhetoric is different because there are some huge gaps to be bridged, and everyone saw this coming from a mile away. This situation is playing out exactly as people have expected it to for the past couple of years, and this lockout was inevitable. I don't know why it will take missing games to get a deal done; realistically speaking, they could meet two or three times a week for the next month and make as much movement as they'd make meeting occasionally over the course of the next four months. But that's not how these things work. The owners want to put a hurt on the players to get them to capitulate as much as possible, and that doesn't happen until they miss games.

Maybe "inevitable" isn't the right word... Undeniable would probably be a better fit.

As for the PR issue, I think anyone who pays attention can see that there is a serious need for a market correction with NBA player compensation. After the nonsense that went on last summer with free agent signings, something has to give. At the same time, the owners have to take responsibility for this mess, but that doesn't change the fact that significant adjustments need to be made. With the NFL labor situation, I think the owners acted in bad faith with the players, from start to finish. In this case, though, the owners are trying to make very necessary adjustments. You might label the changes they've requested as draconian; they're certainly extreme. But they aren't far off from what the NBA needs in order to continue to grow. Can't keep paying Brendan Haywood-type players $55 million just because they're 7 feet tall with a pulse. Can't be required to pay a max-level ransom for B-level players like Joe Johnson and Chris Bosh. And on and on.

The owners are saying "we gotta do something, and if that means we miss games, so be it." Sucks, but I don't know how much fault there is to be found with that. In this situation, the players will be broken. Unlike the NFLPA's litigation strategy, the NBPA doesn't have the same legal leverage (there's no franchise tag, restricted free agency is far less restricted, etc.) They are going to give up a ton. They might as well do it now, rather than do it later and lose compensation from missed games.
 

rainmaker

Hall of Famer
#12
From TrueHoop, good summary of where things stand, and why we might still be playing on Oct:

1.Huge point: The starting point of these negotiations was not "will the next deal be better for the players or the owners?" The starting point was "how much better will this deal be for the owners?" In other words, the players always accepted the future won't be quite as rich as the past. With that in mind, in 2010-11, players' paychecks totaled about 1.99 billion dollars after the 8 percent escrows were held back. After months of doom and gloom, and talk of big rollbacks of salaries, the league has now essentially offered to pay players $2 billion next season. I know, I know, that offer comes with plenty of unpleasantness for players in the future. But next year's salaries have got to be a, if not the, key issue among the current players who vote. With that in mind, I disagree with the assessment that the two sides are worlds apart. Just for fun, let's say the league offered to pay players $2.2 billion next season. Would a majority of players really prefer staying home to that?

2.The union looked at all of the owners' various proposals and declared that they had real religion on hard salary caps and guaranteed contracts. The league has moved a lot on both issues. It has moved all the way to the players' position on guaranteed contracts, and the "flex cap" somewhere north of $62 million being tossed around now is a far cry from the hard cap of $45 million that was in the mix in March. Meanwhile, the players were nice enough to open negotiations with a vague but meaningful offer to take less money. The things both parties have given up meant a lot, and are, to me, another reason to expect the lights to be on this fall.

3.The idea that owners want new kinds of cost certainty is a bit of a myth. They have it right now. NBA contracts are literally a zero-sum game. Pretend that this past season every NBA owner had gone Cuban and signed up a roster where five guys made more than $7 million a season. In that world, the overall income for each team's players would have been a little more than $72 million. Now, pretend that the opposite happened, and that every owner had instead Maloofed their way to tiny salaries, not offering any max deals and loading up on Pooh Jeters and the like. Know how much each team's players would make in that world, all together? The exact same $72 million or so. The existing deal gives players precisely 57 percent of basketball-related income no matter what all the contracts say. The league has had perfect cost certainty since 1998. All that fluctuates is which owners and players spend and receive what percentages of all that.

4.The motivation behind a team-by-team hard cap is not to give owners a sense of how much players will cost. It's to give owners a sense of how much competing will cost. Now that we don't have the high-payroll, low-wins Knicks to kick around anymore, it's fairly clear that spending more on salaries correlates decently with winning (although the Bulls are an exception). The Mavericks spent the most and won. Teams that spent very little (Timberwolves, Clippers, Cavaliers, Kings) generally did poorly. Competitive owners like Mark Cuban -- who has faced steep losses in recent years -- are left in a tough position: win or be profitable? With a hard cap, Cuban's losses would be controlled or eliminated even as he goes all-out to beat the competition. This is a big decision for the owners to make. Cuban can save money right now by standing down in the never-ending arms race of signing all the best players. Is it worth a lockout to save him, and owners like him, from themselves?

5.The league even has something like a team-by-team hard cap right now. The many constraints on pay (a maximum of 15 players, the rookie scale, the midlevel exception, maximum contracts, etc.) make it possible to spend only so much. If you have $200 million a year to blow on salaries, you simply would not be able to get it done under the current CBA, no matter how hard Isiah Thomas might have tried. I don't know what that maximum number is -- certainly it's more than $100 million -- but it's worth noting that in giving in to a host of salary limitations in the past, the union has effectively already agreed to a very high hard cap. What's on the table now is not the idea of putting a totally new cap in place. What's on the table is bringing the existing de facto cap down.

6.Chris Sheridan pointed this out on Twitter, and he's dead right: Both sides are being fairly nice to each other. That means something -- from combatants like this, who are so well-versed in nastiness. I can't speak for hardline owners, but it'd be tough to convince me that players and league officials don't really want a deal.

7.The story is that a hard cap would increase parity, and therefore TV ratings. But the best available evidence is that if it did do that, it would do so only a little bit.

8.Another thing that's happening in these talks: The NBA is shifting a bit, from a league whose primary audience buys tickets, to a league whose primary audience watches on television. Television revenues have the potential to get so big that, like in the NFL, ticket revenue stops being make-or-break.

9.The league and its owners are spending more than they anticipated on things like marketing (to sell tickets in a bad economy), paying coaches and GMs (who are making a lot), and expanding the game to China, Europe, India and Africa. Those are all smart things to spend on. But here's the kicker: When those things come with revenue, under the existing CBA, the league has to give players 57 percent of that revenue. So in theory the league could spend $100 million in China and make $120 million in revenues. Then the league would have to give players 57 percent of that $120 million in income, meaning that its fledgling overseas marketing efforts, even while technically in the black, would in fact leave owners something like $50 million in the hole. Makes it hard for the NBA to grow aggressively. That was a mistake the league made in the last CBA that it would like to fix now. Redefining "basketball-related income" is seen as nothing but taking money from players, but it's also a reasonable attempt to give owners incentives to do what's best for the league, including investing in China. Meanwhile, there are other kinds of income that the owners should share as they do in the current CBA: In a few years most owners expect to have a far bigger national TV deal. That income comes with very little added cost, and it makes all kinds of sense for owners to share that generously with players.

10.Owners have tricky ways of making their businesses look like they're doing far worse than they really are. They get tax advantages. They get public money. They get a high profile (Mark Cuban on David Letterman, Mikhail Prokhorov ascending in Russian politics) that benefits their other businesses in untold ways. They get to do sweetheart deals with other businesses they own, whether that's the local cable channel, a jet charter company or the parking lot outside the stadium. It's tempting to assume, through all that, that owners who cry of financial pain are simply lying. And no doubt, in some cases, they are. It would take a hundred accountants, lawyers and economists a year to really calculate the profits and losses of most teams. There is one great equalizer, though, and that's selling the team. Whatever the total, real-world benefit of owning a team is, it's pretty much lost when you sell it. And so, if owning a team is so great, nobody would ever sell, and certainly nobody would ever sell at a loss. And yet sources insist that the Bobcats, Hornets and Nets -- and, depending who you ask now, the Sixers, Pistons and Hawks -- have all sold or are selling at "take this thing off my hands" prices. No small number of owners marinated in the benefits of ownership, weighed it against the costs, and wanted out. So, no, I'm not asking you to take the NBA's word for it that 22 of 30 NBA teams lost money last year. The math is undoubtedly more complex. But I am certain that plenty of NBA owners are not loving the current setup, and therefore it's not strange that the owners are driving a hard bargain, especially as a huge chunk of today's owners bought their teams in a good economy for hundreds of millions. They're like the people on your block who paid a fortune for their house -- they have far less wiggle room than the little old couple next door that bought for $30,000 in the 1960s. These owners are prepared to drive hard bargains.

11.Public money for stadiums has become scarce, and I have to believe that's part of the owners' pleas for financial relief from players. Huge moneymaking buildings for free or cheap have been no small part of what makes owning a team a no-brainer. Now teams in need of stadiums -- like the Kings and whatever team may one day relocate to Seattle -- face tough economics. Getting either deal done requires some kind of miracle. And in that context, if you ever fantasized about a world where taxpayers didn't contribute so much to buildings -- even if it meant players earned a little less -- well, your time is now.
 
#13
You are right they are in the same situation, what I really meant is they seem to be proclaiming public optimism and billing it more as contract negotiations than using the "L" word and insisting that the pre-season and regular season could still start on time if they just get something done in the next two weeks despite the fact that seems highly unlikely and the sell by date has moved once or twice. Whereas the NBA seems to already be sending the message that missing games is already inevitable.

The main thing is that the owners are sending the message that they are playing hardball but could it backfire on them PR wise even though the players in the NBA have been coddled compared to the NFL players?
NFL training camps normally start in a few weeks thats why there is more positive talk. Lets see what the NBA is saying at the end of September.
 
#14
3.The idea that owners want new kinds of cost certainty is a bit of a myth. They have it right now. NBA contracts are literally a zero-sum game. Pretend that this past season every NBA owner had gone Cuban and signed up a roster where five guys made more than $7 million a season. In that world, the overall income for each team's players would have been a little more than $72 million. Now, pretend that the opposite happened, and that every owner had instead Maloofed their way to tiny salaries, not offering any max deals and loading up on Pooh Jeters and the like. Know how much each team's players would make in that world, all together? The exact same $72 million or so. The existing deal gives players precisely 57 percent of basketball-related income no matter what all the contracts say. The league has had perfect cost certainty since 1998. All that fluctuates is which owners and players spend and receive what percentages of all that.
This is not entirely correct. While the players are guaranteed a minimum amount every year, one way or the other, because teams can go over the cap in the NBA, there is no max on the amount of money the players can receive in a given year. So, if every team spent only to the cap last sesaon, total player compensation would be about $1.74 billion. As it stands, total player compensation was about $2.027 billion. Had every team "Maloofed" their way through the season, total player compensation would have been $1.44 billion, at minimum levels. We're talking about a potential difference of almost $600 million in one season.

The only number that's tied to the cap and must be met is 75% of the salary cap, because that's the minimum player compensation, according to the CBA. As it stands, player compensation was 116% of what it would have been had every team simply spent up to the cap, and 155% of what it would have been had every team simply spent up to the minimum.
 
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#16
This is not entirely correct. While the players are guaranteed a minimum amount every year, one way or the other, because teams can go over the cap in the NBA, there is no max on the amount of money the players can receive in a given year. So, if every team spent only to the cap last sesaon, total player compensation would be about $1.74 billion. As it stands, total player compensation was about $2.027 billion. Had every team "Maloofed" their way through the season, total player compensation would have been $1.44 billion, at minimum levels. We're talking about a potential difference of almost $600 million in one season.

The only number that's tied to the cap and must be met is 75% of the salary cap, because that's the minimum player compensation, according to the CBA. As it stands, player compensation was 116% of what it would have been had every team simply spent up to the cap, and 155% of what it would have been had every team simply spent up to the minimum.
Actually, I think its correct. The NBA has to pay the players 57%. Even if every team had minimum contracts the players would then split the diffence of that 57% on top of their contract terms.

Now every player has to put a part of their salary in an escrow account. So if the players contracts total more than 57% the owners get the money difference from the escrow account until the 57% is achieved.
 

pdxKingsFan

So Ordinary That It's Truly Quite Extraordinary
Staff member
#17
There was a lockout in 2005. No work missed, because it only lasted about a month, and the issues weren't as extreme as they are this time. Everyone was optimistic that a deal would be done in short order, and it was. This time, the rhetoric is different because there are some huge gaps to be bridged, and everyone saw this coming from a mile away. This situation is playing out exactly as people have expected it to for the past couple of years, and this lockout was inevitable. I don't know why it will take missing games to get a deal done; realistically speaking, they could meet two or three times a week for the next month and make as much movement as they'd make meeting occasionally over the course of the next four months. But that's not how these things work. The owners want to put a hurt on the players to get them to capitulate as much as possible, and that doesn't happen until they miss games.

Maybe "inevitable" isn't the right word... Undeniable would probably be a better fit.
2005 feels like so long ago, and you are right that there was some time from the end of the CBA until the new one was ratified that no business took place. But I still seem to recall them using the "L" word more in a threatening manner than just declaring "It has begun".

I agree with everything you said after, I just think its funny how both the NFL and the NBA are playing out so differently. The NFL had broken the players union years ago, if they ever had any teeth and yet have still managed to win the early PR war. The NBA I think is complicated because both sides share blame. You can't blame the players for taking more money than they deserve if the owners are dumb enough to offer. But I agree that the changes are needed or else we'll wind up with a 5 or 6 team league. Still I won't be surprised to see the players win the early PR war in this one.
 
#18
Actually, I think its correct. The NBA has to pay the players 57%. Even if every team had minimum contracts the players would then split the diffence of that 57% on top of their contract terms.

Now every player has to put a part of their salary in an escrow account. So if the players contracts total more than 57% the owners get the money difference from the escrow account until the 57% is achieved.
I don't understand what you're saying here. First of all, the NBA does NOT have to pay the players 57%. They only have to pay them 75% of that.

Are you saying the players give the teams a rebate if total player compensation goes above 57%? Because that's not true. It's actually the opposite; if teams don't reach the minimum salary (75% of the cap), the players get a rebate.

By the way, the 57% number includes more than just player salaries. If we're talking about just player salaries, then the number we need to be focusing on is the salary cap, which changes every season based on revenue. For the past season it was $58 million. Multiply by 30 teams, and you have a total of $1.74 billion in player compensation. But teams are not required to spend up to the cap, they are only required to spend up to 75% of the cap, or $43.5 million. Multiply by 30 teams again, and you have a total minimum player compensation of $1.305 billion. The salary cap does not dictate how much players are compensated in total per season. Because there's no hard cap, it's merely a guideline. And that guideline is what's based on the 57%. In reality, it's not a true indication of how much the players are actually compensated every year, because teams frequently spend over the cap. Again, last season, total player compensation (based on team payrolls) was $2.027 billion. 116% of what it would have been had every team spent up to the $58 million cap.

My point is simply that the statement "the league has had perfect cost certainty since 1998. All that fluctuates is which owners and players spend and receive what percentages of all that" is entirely inaccurate, both in principle and in practice.
 

hrdboild

Moloch in whom I dream Angels!
Staff member
#19
I think most of the blame for the lockout in this case rests on the owners. The players have been making concessions for months already but the owners have got a few key points they're unwilling to budge on (hard cap, no guaranteed contracts, reduction in overall salary) that are completely unrealistic. The hard cap could probably be negotiated in a way that it doesn't dramatically reduce player salaries. But for that to happen it's not going to be any lower than it already is. Partially guaranteed contracts to account for serious injuries or dramatic declines in performance (ie incentive based) could be negotiated as well.

But the overall salary reduction? This is where the owners positions has no basis in reality. How can you ask the players to reduce their overall share of the profits when league revenue continues to increase? If 20 out of 30 teams are really losing money every year than the problem with the league's financial model is the lack of revenue sharing, not the ridiculous contracts teams are giving out just because they can. No one forced Atlanta to bid against themselves and give Joe Johnson a $120 million contract. If they're having trouble turning a profit now as a result maybe they should fire their GM and hire a better one?
 
#20
I think most of the blame for the lockout in this case rests on the owners. The players have been making concessions for months already but the owners have got a few key points they're unwilling to budge on (hard cap, no guaranteed contracts, reduction in overall salary) that are completely unrealistic. The hard cap could probably be negotiated in a way that it doesn't dramatically reduce player salaries. But for that to happen it's not going to be any lower than it already is. Partially guaranteed contracts to account for serious injuries or dramatic declines in performance (ie incentive based) could be negotiated as well.

But the overall salary reduction? This is where the owners positions has no basis in reality. How can you ask the players to reduce their overall share of the profits when league revenue continues to increase? If 20 out of 30 teams are really losing money every year than the problem with the league's financial model is the lack of revenue sharing, not the ridiculous contracts teams are giving out just because they can. No one forced Atlanta to bid against themselves and give Joe Johnson a $120 million contract. If they're having trouble turning a profit now as a result maybe they should fire their GM and hire a better one?
Atlanta gave Joe Johnson a huge deal because that has, over time, become the cost of doing business in the NBA. There needs to be a major market correction, because what's become obvious is that the owners can't/won't reduce spending on their own. The problem is that the cap, while somewhat restrictive, isn't restrictive enough. It's certainly not prohibitive. To be honest, if teams were only spending 57% on player compensation, there probably wouldn't be any issues here. But because the cap isn't restrictive, player compensation exceeds the amount allotted for it.

There's no doubt the blame rests on the owners' shoulders. If you offered me $55 million to hold down the end of the bench, I'd take it in a heartbeat, knowing full well I'm being overpaid. So would anyone else. But that's really not the issue. We can assign blame all we want, but bottom line is that there is obviously a problem (several, actually), and it needs to be fixed, one way or the other. The prevailing proposal from the owners would allow for a $62 million cap, which is $4 million higher than the allotted amount now. The problem is that most teams are over the cap, so it would actually represent a $5.6 million drawback from 2010-11.

There are also small vs. big market issues that the CBA should address, as it pertains to teams being able to offer more to star players, or else get compensation for them, etc.

Separate from all this is the revenue sharing, which the NBA already does to an extent. For instance, teams don't share gate receipts. So when a big ticket team comes to Sacramento and the arena sells out, the Kings get all that revenue, which is partially attributable to the team that's visiting. What small market owners want is shared media revenue, more like the NFL, which I don't think is going to happen. This is something the owners must figure out among themselves.

I understand the players' side, but I also understand and to an extent agree with what the owners are trying to do.
 
#21
I don't understand what you're saying here. First of all, the NBA does NOT have to pay the players 57%. They only have to pay them 75% of that.

Are you saying the players give the teams a rebate if total player compensation goes above 57%? Because that's not true. It's actually the opposite; if teams don't reach the minimum salary (75% of the cap), the players get a rebate.

By the way, the 57% number includes more than just player salaries. If we're talking about just player salaries, then the number we need to be focusing on is the salary cap, which changes every season based on revenue. For the past season it was $58 million. Multiply by 30 teams, and you have a total of $1.74 billion in player compensation. But teams are not required to spend up to the cap, they are only required to spend up to 75% of the cap, or $43.5 million. Multiply by 30 teams again, and you have a total minimum player compensation of $1.305 billion. The salary cap does not dictate how much players are compensated in total per season. Because there's no hard cap, it's merely a guideline. And that guideline is what's based on the 57%. In reality, it's not a true indication of how much the players are actually compensated every year, because teams frequently spend over the cap. Again, last season, total player compensation (based on team payrolls) was $2.027 billion. 116% of what it would have been had every team spent up to the $58 million cap.

My point is simply that the statement "the league has had perfect cost certainty since 1998. All that fluctuates is which owners and players spend and receive what percentages of all that" is entirely inaccurate, both in principle and in practice.
The players get 57% if BRI (basketball related income). Whether that is via contracts or contracts + other revenue.

So to make the numbers easy lets say the 57% of BRI is $2 billion. The players get that $2 billion not more not less. So if the contracts were all $1 mil per player at 15 players per team x 30 teams thats $450 million. So the 450 players would then split the $1.55 billion and get $3.44 million over their $1 mil contract.

Right now the players pay a % of their check into an escrow account. At the end of the year the contracts are added to determine what % of BRI they add up. If the % is less than 57% they get the money from the escrow account until it equals 57%. If the players are below 57% the owners pay the players the difference.

From Larry coons twitter

LarryCoon Larry Coon
Yes. They cut a check. RT @spmcis: what would happen when the salaries are under 57%? Should owners pay the difference to the players?
LarryCoon Larry Coon
A very rough estimate of the amount of escrow funds players will be entitled to this year: $37 million. Owners: $137 million.
 

hrdboild

Moloch in whom I dream Angels!
Staff member
#22
Atlanta gave Joe Johnson a huge deal because that has, over time, become the cost of doing business in the NBA. There needs to be a major market correction, because what's become obvious is that the owners can't/won't reduce spending on their own. The problem is that the cap, while somewhat restrictive, isn't restrictive enough. It's certainly not prohibitive. To be honest, if teams were only spending 57% on player compensation, there probably wouldn't be any issues here. But because the cap isn't restrictive, player compensation exceeds the amount allotted for it.

There's no doubt the blame rests on the owners' shoulders. If you offered me $55 million to hold down the end of the bench, I'd take it in a heartbeat, knowing full well I'm being overpaid. So would anyone else. But that's really not the issue. We can assign blame all we want, but bottom line is that there is obviously a problem (several, actually), and it needs to be fixed, one way or the other. The prevailing proposal from the owners would allow for a $62 million cap, which is $4 million higher than the allotted amount now. The problem is that most teams are over the cap, so it would actually represent a $5.6 million drawback from 2010-11.

There are also small vs. big market issues that the CBA should address, as it pertains to teams being able to offer more to star players, or else get compensation for them, etc.

Separate from all this is the revenue sharing, which the NBA already does to an extent. For instance, teams don't share gate receipts. So when a big ticket team comes to Sacramento and the arena sells out, the Kings get all that revenue, which is partially attributable to the team that's visiting. What small market owners want is shared media revenue, more like the NFL, which I don't think is going to happen. This is something the owners must figure out among themselves.

I understand the players' side, but I also understand and to an extent agree with what the owners are trying to do.
There needs to be some change, agreed. Probably even big changes. But that doesn't mean the players should have to pay for the owners inability to police themselves. From what I've read about the negotiations, the players are willing to make whatever concessions are needed to arrive at a functioning system, within reason. Asking for a 33% reduction in player salary, or whatever that number is, is not reasonable.

What the owners need to get sorted out is a way to ensure that the league doesn't become 10 profitable big market teams which are competing for the championship and then 20 perennial also-rans struggling to get by. I think Billy Hunter was right that revenue sharing is a bigger problem in terms of economic viability for most teams than player salaries. Media markets are dictating profits now and there's no way to get the Sacramentos of the league into the same ballpark as the Los Angeleses without a more expanded form of revenue sharing. If the owners can sort that out among themselves there wouldn't be a need for a lockout in the first place. Obviously that's not in the best interest of the few teams who are making a killing under the current system so they're going to deflect responsibility onto the players for as long as they can get away with it.
 
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pdxKingsFan

So Ordinary That It's Truly Quite Extraordinary
Staff member
#23
I think both sides are to blame but I'm not sympathetic to the players at all here. They can take a pay cut and lower their future expectations from 7 million for the next 5 years to 5 for the next 4, they are still coming out way ahead of the rest of us schmucks right now.

I mean think of it this way, your boss drives the business into the ground and has to shut down shop. You don't get to keep your job do you? So it's not working, figure out a way to make it work.
 

hrdboild

Moloch in whom I dream Angels!
Staff member
#24
I think both sides are to blame but I'm not sympathetic to the players at all here. They can take a pay cut and lower their future expectations from 7 million for the next 5 years to 5 for the next 4, they are still coming out way ahead of the rest of us schmucks right now.

I mean think of it this way, your boss drives the business into the ground and has to shut down shop. You don't get to keep your job do you? So it's not working, figure out a way to make it work.
Yes but they don't set the market value for their services. If Jerry Buss can sign a $200 million television contract because enough people in LA want to pay to watch Kobe Bryant, should Jerry Buss be getting the lion's share of that revenue or should Kobe Bryant? The players are the ones providing the product that everyone pays to see. If overall revenue is going up, then both sides should be making more money. If your employer is making more money this year than they made 5 years ago, would you voluntarily "take one for the team" and accept a pay cut?

What do I get about the owner's position is that the current system doesn't really account for market risk. In the event of a recession, like the one we had, most player contracts aren't going to change because they're locked in. So it's the owners that pay the price for decreasing ticket sales. But apparently the players are willing to put a clause in the new CBA which guarantees a certain profit margin for the owners. That was in the last player's proposal and the owners still voted for a lockout.
 

Warhawk

Give blood and save a life!
Staff member
#26
Yeah when it comes time to resign all of this talent the Kings are stockpiling a few years down the road and they can't do it because of a hard cap, that's going to be a big help.
It will when every other team is also pushing the max to sign their own players as well. Everyone will be in the same boat. Now, some teams can vastly overspend to do whatever they want.
 
#27
It will when every other team is also pushing the max to sign their own players as well. Everyone will be in the same boat. Now, some teams can vastly overspend to do whatever they want.
Every team won't be in the same boat, though. The teams with the smallest salaries and least talented rosters will be in prime position to steal some of our best players in a few years and there won't be a damn thing we can do to stop it. That's when not being able to overpay a little will bite us in the butt. No way the Kings will be able to retain Evans/Cousins/Jimmer/Hickson/Thornton long term under a hard cap. Kiss at least two of them goodbye and say hello to parity and mediocrity.
 
#28
Do people who think a hard-cap is such a great idea and some kind of small market savior realize that the early 2000s Kings most likely couldn't have existed under a hard cap? Is that really what you want? To neuter your own team by putting a leash on your owners spending?
 

pdxKingsFan

So Ordinary That It's Truly Quite Extraordinary
Staff member
#29
If your employer is making more money this year than they made 5 years ago, would you voluntarily "take one for the team" and accept a pay cut?
I snipped this because really it all does boil down to profit and risk and with the exception of LA how many teams are really making more than they did 5 years ago? We know that many teams' revenues are down over the past few years. So the next contract players are going to have to suck it up.

As for players providing the product, the same can often be said for the low-level workers in any corporation, except that the players if they all took a 25% pay cut across the board tomorrow would all still be living lifestyles most of us only dream of. On the flip side if the league or their team loses money five years in a row the players will still get paid. If they can do it all they can start their own league. The NHL players thought about that for about 5 minutes too.
 

Warhawk

Give blood and save a life!
Staff member
#30
Every team won't be in the same boat, though. The teams with the smallest salaries and least talented rosters will be in prime position to steal some of our best players in a few years and there won't be a damn thing we can do to stop it. That's when not being able to overpay a little will bite us in the butt. No way the Kings will be able to retain Evans/Cousins/Jimmer/Hickson/Thornton long term under a hard cap. Kiss at least two of them goodbye and say hello to parity and mediocrity.
Do people who think a hard-cap is such a great idea and some kind of small market savior realize that the early 2000s Kings most likely couldn't have existed under a hard cap? Is that really what you want? To neuter your own team by putting a leash on your owners spending?
Fact is, the 2002 Kings era is gone. MSE will not be spending that kind of $$$ anytime soon. I would rather Sacramento be on even footing with other cities financially than being outspent every year. We may lose some players, but, then again, so will everyone else. A hard cap and revenue sharing would do wonders to make smaller market teams not so dependent on luck (winning the lottery - Cleveland, San Antonio, Seattle/OKC, etc.) to be able to be competitive. We were lucky MSE had the cash to spend earlier. That isn't the case anymore. And I don't think we can rely on it in the future.