Trading Tyreke... Unthinkable?

[funkykingston]

Here's the catch 22 with trading Tyreke. He had a fantastic ROY campaign followed by a dismal sophomore season. To move him now would be selling low and the team would be better served by waiting until next year when (hopefully) he has a return to form and is playing well again in which case he has higher trade value. But if he comes back and plays the way he is capable of then why trade him at all unless it's for a clearly superior young talent?

The only real reason to trade Tyreke at all is if the team feels he'll never live up to his (very high) potential. And I have no idea whether they feel that way or not. Unfortunately if they do it means this rebuild basically starts over again.

Long story short, I hope this team isn't trading Tyreke because I hope they really feel he can be the cornerstone of a great team.

 

[funkykingston]

wow winning some games that didn't count for anything impressive

The Kings added Dalembert, Cousins and Thornton and the team actually won one fewer game in 2010-2011 than they did the year before (24-58 vs 25-57) which is a disappointment by any standard. So I'll agree there.

There are a lot of excuses that can be made from Tyreke's plantar fasciitis to Cousin's growing pains, to Dalembert's injury, to needing Thorton's shooting and scoring and only having it for the home stretch. Muddled lineups/rotations were also a factor and that falls on Westphal. But however you slice it a more talented team finished with a worse record.

But here's where I don't understand your post. They played their best basketball down the stretch. Would you rather have that or have had the team play their best basketball to start the season and finish horribly? Those games DID count for something. They were an indication that the team was making strides.

 

[Tetsujin]

The Kings added Dalembert, Cousins and Thornton and the team actually won one fewer game in 2010-2011 than they did the year before (24-58 vs 25-57) which is a disappointment by any standard. So I'll agree there.

There are a lot of excuses that can be made from Tyreke's plantar fasciitis to Cousin's growing pains, to Dalembert's injury, to needing Thorton's shooting and scoring and only having it for the home stretch. Muddled lineups/rotations were also a factor and that falls on Westphal. But however you slice it a more talented team finished with a worse record.

But here's where I don't understand your post. They played their best basketball down the stretch. Would you rather have that or have had the team play their best basketball to start the season and finish horribly? Those games DID count for something. They were an indication that the team was making strides.

But Omri was relegated to garbage time.

 

[cuad]

I'm a little worried about Tyreke getting fat because it's clearly responsible for his foot/ankle problems. he needs to lose weight. and I think management needs to play him at full time SG because he can't shoot or pass.

but hell no, he's still untradeable, and if Marcus Thornton can accept a 6th man high scoring bench guy role, we'd be set for years.

 

[Dime Dropper]

I'm a little worried about Tyreke getting fat because it's clearly responsible for his foot/ankle problems. he needs to lose weight. and I think management needs to play him at full time SG because he can't shoot or pass.

but hell no, he's still untradeable, and if Marcus Thornton can accept a 6th man high scoring bench guy role, we'd be set for years.

Tyreke is nowhere near fat, but you're right that his conditioning needs to be better. In college he was alot more ripped, and over the last year or so he put on a little extra weight. Nothing too significant as he's still in great shape, but he does need to get into tip-top shape, and I think that will help him. Reke can definitely pass. He's not Steve Nash, but he has good passing ability. His shot will become reliable IF he puts in the time and effort. There is no need to move him to SG. Having Thornton come off the bench at this point makes zero sense. And Evans deserves a chance to grow into the PG position. He's a mismatch every single night.

 

[rainmaker]

I'm a little worried about Tyreke getting fat because it's clearly responsible for his foot/ankle problems. he needs to lose weight. and I think management needs to play him at full time SG because he can't shoot or pass.

but hell no, he's still untradeable, and if Marcus Thornton can accept a 6th man high scoring bench guy role, we'd be set for years.

His conditioning really needs improvement. When you see him bust his a** on defense, you realize how many games he takes off on that end. I have a huge problem with him not fighting to get through screens, and always going under. I also think he settles for jumpers when he gets tired at the end of games. But he was injured, and couldn't work on his conditioning. Let's hope he learns and shows up to camp in the best shape of his young career.

Now, he can't pass? Really? He struggles big time to run the offense, but he can pass, and he can create. He's set up numerous teammates, numerous times. He doesn't pass enough on the breaks, but there's a difference between being able to pass, and being willing to pass. The latter is his problem. He's not willing enough to pass enough when he should. Part of that is being uncomfortable running an team, and offense. That's one reason I don't mind seeing a pg next to him. At the same time, he can still learn how to run an offense, and experience will help.

In no way can you say Reke can't pass, or he isn't talented enough to do so. He's shown that ability repeatedly. It's a matter of learning when to pass, when to shoot. Something tells me if we didn't surround him with the worst shooters in the league, you might feel differently. His ast numbers would have been higher, and he would have had 5-10 10+ ast games. But he'd created, and dished, only to have the other guys miss their open shots at a higher rate than just about any other team in the league.

 

[Agent23]

wow winning some games that didn't count for anything impressive
team looks horrible , no comment on your stupid second answer

i just think that with tyreke cousins dalambert casspi beno cicsco thorthon and etc you can do more then he did last year

Ok? You said weak end of the year lineup. I said the lineup that was winning games at the end of the year. If you said weak lineups all year long, I can understand because team didn't do so hot in the beginning of the year. No one can understand what your intention was if you can't understand what you said in the first place. Don't cry about the Omri commet. Its closer to the truth than you would like to admit. BTW, I don't like Coach Westphal much but he will suffice while the kiddies are growing up. This team is rebuilding, they weren't going to the NBA Finals this year. They won't be playoff bound for at least another year.

 

[Tetsujin]

Ok? You said weak end of the year lineup. I said the lineup that was winning games at the end of the year. If you said weak lineups all year long, I can understand because team didn't do so hot in the beginning of the year. No one can understand what your intention was if you can't understand what you said in the first place. Don't cry about the Omri commet. Its closer to the truth than you would like to admit. BTW, I don't like Coach Westphal much but he will suffice while the kiddies are growing up. This team is rebuilding, they weren't going to the NBA Finals this year. They won't be playoff bound for at least another year.

This. No one really remembers Doug Collins was the guy who shaped the Bulls into a contender (although having some guys named Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen may have played a small role in that). Or that Del Harris and Kurt Rambis coached the Lakers before Phil Jackson did. Did their teams become dynasties while they were the coach? No. Were they necessary cogs in the wheel going from A to B? Yes.

 

[est.1999]

I'm a little worried about Tyreke getting fat because it's clearly responsible for his foot/ankle problems. he needs to lose weight. and I think management needs to play him at full time SG because he can't shoot or pass.

but hell no, he's still untradeable, and if Marcus Thornton can accept a 6th man high scoring bench guy role, we'd be set for years.

I find that hilarious. You say move him to SG because he can't "shoot"? How's that make any sense?

 

[rainmaker]

i think we should trade out coach for not being able to create really anything with his roster in 2 years. unless you guys are fine with the weak end of the year lineup

You apparently can't analyze more than a box score, if that. You can't comprehend where our roster was, is, and is going. You apparently think a roster with 3 of its 4 best players in their 1st or 2nd year should be a playoff power. You have the inability seperate our play in the last 6 weeks, and post Thornton trade, from the rest of the season. You fail to recognize that a team doesn't just go from "meaningless wins" to a playoff powerhouse in a blink of an eye. There is a process there, which takes years, to get from point A to point B(I'm sure this is over your head).

I don't know which is worse, your comprehension of basketball, or Omri's ballhandling.

 

[Asaf]

BTW, I don't like Coach Westphal much but he will suffice while the kiddies are growing up. This team is rebuilding, they weren't going to the NBA Finals this year. They won't be playoff bound for at least another year.

This is an argument that comes up often on this board and I just don't get it. The criticism of Westphal is not that he can't win with a veteran team. He actually made it to the NBA finals with a veteran team. The big question regarding Westphal is whether or not he is able to develop young talent and turn it into veteran, winning talent. There is ample evidence that the answer to that question is no (or as Christina Bosh likes to put it, HELL NO). This assumption that our young talent is just going to miraculously develop into elite NBA veteran talent without adequate coaching is purely false.

 

[Tetsujin]

This is an argument that comes up often on this board and I just don't get it. The criticism of Westphal is not that he can't win with a veteran team. He actually made it to the NBA finals with a veteran team. The big question regarding Westphal is whether or not he is able to develop young talent and turn it into veteran, winning talent. There is ample evidence that the answer to that question is no (or as Christina Bosh likes to put it, HELL NO). This assumption that our young talent is just going to miraculously develop into elite NBA veteran talent without adequate coaching is purely false.

Ample evidence being what? Tyreke's leg giving out? Donte coming back after a summer of taking work out lessons from Shaq? Demarcus having maturity issues that he acknowledged himself that he needed to work on?

Or maybe you're referring to his days with the Suns, when he failed to develop such stalwarts as Skeeter Henry and Malcolm Mackey.

Or maybe you're focusing upon his tenure in Seattle, where he had enough trust in his second round pick (some guy named Rashard Lewis) to let him play increasingly valuable minutes despite the fact he was dealing with an increasingly unstable Vin Baker and the always lovely Glove as role models? Maybe you're disappointed int he fact that he couldn't develop the other Barry brother (poor Drew Barry didn't know what hit him), or the fact that in his two full years there he didn't have a first round pick to develop.

Is there outstanding evidence one way or the other about Westphal's prowess in developing talent? No. Is that the case with just about any coach whatsoever? Yes.

Is there any coach out there on the market that would be markedly better than Westphal when it comes to developing talent? Not particularly.

Look, I'm as much of an advocate for hiring Adleman as the next guy but his style is all but condusive to actually developing players not in his tight 8-9 man rotation (Gerald Wallace, Hell, even Hedo, Kevin Martin sitting on the bench until he finally had no choice but to play him [most of his development, btw, can be attributed to his work with some guy named Coachie], actually playing Mateen during garbage time rather than keeping him on the bench to improve his towel waving skills).

Let him finish out his contract and see how things progress from there.


I'm pretty sure the OKC success story may have a bit more to do with the fact that they have some guys named Kevin Durant and Russell Westbrook on their team more than the fact that Scotty Brooks is among the better coaches in the NBA (why did we pass on him for Theus again?).

 

[Asaf]

Ample evidence being what? Tyreke's leg giving out? Donte coming back after a summer of taking work out lessons from Shaq? Demarcus having maturity issues that he acknowledged himself that he needed to work on?

Or maybe you're referring to his days with the Suns, when he failed to develop such stalwarts as Skeeter Henry and Malcolm Mackey.

Or maybe you're focusing upon his tenure in Seattle, where he had enough trust in his second round pick (some guy named Rashard Lewis) to let him play increasingly valuable minutes despite the fact he was dealing with an increasingly unstable Vin Baker and the always lovely Glove as role models? Maybe you're disappointed int he fact that he couldn't develop the other Barry brother (poor Drew Barry didn't know what hit him), or the fact that in his two full years there he didn't have a first round pick to develop.

Is there outstanding evidence one way or the other about Westphal's prowess in developing talent? No. Is that the case with just about any coach whatsoever? Yes.

Is there any coach out there on the market that would be markedly better than Westphal when it comes to developing talent? Not particularly.

Look, I'm as much of an advocate for hiring Adleman as the next guy but his style is all but condusive to actually developing players not in his tight 8-9 man rotation (Gerald Wallace, Hell, even Hedo, Kevin Martin sitting on the bench until he finally had no choice but to play him [most of his development, btw, can be attributed to his work with some guy named Coachie], actually playing Mateen during garbage time rather than keeping him on the bench to improve his towel waving skills).

Let him finish out his contract and see how things progress from there.


I'm pretty sure the OKC success story may have a bit more to do with the fact that they have some guys named Kevin Durant and Russell Westbrook on their team more than the fact that Scotty Brooks is among the better coaches in the NBA (why did we pass on him for Theus again?).

I can come up with even more excuses for Westphal, but the bottom line is that he had a bunch of youngsters to develop here in the last two years and not one of them has made even the natural improvement you expect a young guy to make during that timespan (ok, MAYBE Cousins did, but that was mainly due to the chip on his shoulder and his immense talent and ability to learn. Unless you want to credit Westphal for his double standards in handling Cousins as some kind of genius move). Tyreke (you can make excuses for him too, like the injuries, but learning to pass on the break has nothing to do with plantar fasciitis), Omri, JT, Donte, and even Spencer Hawes and Jon Brockman - not one of these guys made a significant leap in ability during Westphal's tenure.

As for your OKC comment, of course you need talent to succeed. Brooks wouldn't have been able to do much with last season's cavs, for example. But it wasn't until Brooks took over and started properly utilizing the talents of Durant and Westbrook that OKC started having success and these players became legit stars.

You're implying that it doesn't matter what coach we have right now, and it only starts to matter when we compete for the title. I disagree, and furthermore I think that if we don't get the right coach, it will take a long long time for us to even be in the position to contend for that title and consider a new coach.

 

[Sptsjunkie]

I'm a little worried about Tyreke getting fat because it's clearly responsible for his foot/ankle problems. he needs to lose weight. and I think management needs to play him at full time SG because he can't shoot or pass.

but hell no, he's still untradeable, and if Marcus Thornton can accept a 6th man high scoring bench guy role, we'd be set for years.

You may be mixing up the causal relationship here. Reke was in great shape and then he hurt his ankle pretty badly in the Team USA tryouts, which affected his conditioning coming into the season.

 

[Spike]

and even Spencer Hawes and Jon Brockman - not one of these guys made a significant leap in ability during Westphal's tenure.

Philly should get rid of Doug Collins - he couldn't do anything with Spencer Hawes, either. Unless you want to argue that Westphal did so poorly that nobody could resurrect Hawes' career.

Seriously, having an injury will impact your ability to finish at the basket with teammates because you can't play with people and get to know their tendencies. Examples have already been given about how Evans has been a solid distributor. I can remember a blown finishes at the rim by Omri and Donte (both late round players) as well.

Did musical chairs at the beginning of the season hurt as well? Yeah, but considering most people on this very site had their own idea of a different starting five, it's hard to reason why there wasn't cohesion. Again, look at the progress that was made when the rotation was steady. Clearly there was growth towards the end of the year.

 

[Asaf]

Doug Collins

Why would you think Doug Collins is responsible for Shaq's retirement?

(see, I can take things out of context and build unrelated arguments around them too...)

 

[Uncia03]

I'm hoping that most can agree that Westphal's biggest issue last year was his rotations. We had an easy schedule, and if he'd just stuck to a consistent rotation the team would have had better success. Coming down the stretch Westphal solidified the rotation and the team played great ball while fighting through an incredibly tough second-half schedule. We had consistent starters with Thorton bringing the shooting we needed from the off-guard spot, JT played fantastic as he knew his role as a 3rd big, Beno was that steady veteran presence off the bench, everything just clicked.

So...if we pick up a veteran SF, I'm perfectly fine with Westphal next year provided that he starts the season with a Tyreke/Thorton/SF/Cousins/Dalembert line-up.
Say what you will of Westphal (and I was calling for his head in the middle of the season) but the team did not quit playing for him. So if he can play a consistent rotation then I'm willing to run with him for another year, and since he comes so cheaply, I think the Maloofs are willing as well.

The last thing I want is to bring in another coach and have him mess with the rotation and do something like start the year with Beno as primary guard, Tyreke as shooting guard, Garcia as the SF, JT as PF, and Cousins at Center. You know, a coach coming in and messing with the line-up and rotations, would really hurt what we had going for us heading into the end of last season.

The young guys need consistency, and I'm hoping that Westphal will provide that, and if he does then I'll support him, and if he plays with the line-up then I'll be calling for his head again.

 

[Tetsujin]

I'm hoping that most can agree that Westphal's biggest issue last year was his rotations. We had an easy schedule, and if he'd just stuck to a consistent rotation the team would have had better success. Coming down the stretch Westphal solidified the rotation and the team played great ball while fighting through an incredibly tough second-half schedule. We had consistent starters with Thorton bringing the shooting we needed from the off-guard spot, JT played fantastic as he knew his role as a 3rd big, Beno was that steady veteran presence off the bench, everything just clicked.

So...if we pick up a veteran SF, I'm perfectly fine with Westphal next year provided that he starts the season with a Tyreke/Thorton/SF/Cousins/Dalembert line-up.
Say what you will of Westphal (and I was calling for his head in the middle of the season) but the team did not quit playing for him. So if he can play a consistent rotation then I'm willing to run with him for another year, and since he comes so cheaply, I think the Maloofs are willing as well.

The last thing I want is to bring in another coach and have him mess with the rotation and do something like start the year with Beno as primary guard, Tyreke as shooting guard, Garcia as the SF, JT as PF, and Cousins at Center. You know, a coach coming in and messing with the line-up and rotations, would really hurt what we had going for us heading into the end of last season.

The young guys need consistency, and I'm hoping that Westphal will provide that, and if he does then I'll support him, and if he plays with the line-up then I'll be calling for his head again.

This. You put this far more eloquently then I ever could have.

 

[Tetsujin]

You're implying that it doesn't matter what coach we have right now, and it only starts to matter when we compete for the title. I disagree, and furthermore I think that if we don't get the right coach, it will take a long long time for us to even be in the position to contend for that title and consider a new coach.

I never said that it doesn't matter what coach we have now. I'm simply saying that given the Maloofs propencity for hiring choices that tend upset the applecart (Mussleman, Theus, Levine), it probably wouldn't be conducive to the team to get a new coach at this point in time when team chemistry is of utmost importance. So why not wait out the year and see what happens?

I've also yet to have heard you make a suggestion as to who would be a good, conceivable option to replace Westphal. It's easy to say "Oh, we need a new guy" but harder to find a new guy that is leaps and bounds better than the old guy he ousted. (We learned this the hard way a few years back, if you can remember)

 

[Asaf]

I never said that it doesn't matter what coach we have now. I'm simply saying that given the Maloofs propencity for hiring choices that tend upset the applecart (Mussleman, Theus, Levine), it probably wouldn't be conducive to the team to get a new coach at this point in time when team chemistry is of utmost importance. So why not wait out the year and see what happens?

I've also yet to have heard you make a suggestion as to who would be a good, conceivable option to replace Westphal. It's easy to say "Oh, we need a new guy" but harder to find a new guy that is leaps and bounds better than the old guy he ousted. (We learned this the hard way a few years back, if you can remember)

That's a whole different story. I'm not sure there's a perfect coach out there, and practically speaking it might be a problem for the maloofs to hire a new coach with a pending lockout and pay two coaches to not work. So no, I don't have the answer to that. Still, my original point wasn't that we need to replace Westphal at all cost and without regard to who will replace him, but I was simply saying that I disagree with the attitude that "Westphal will do until we are good enough to really need a good coach". We need a good coach now. I don't know if there's one out there, but that's what we need.