Outside shooting

J

jtt

G-League
#1
#1
It's frustrating that since Pedrag and Bibby we can't find a shooter. We tried to draft them. Garcia and Douby were both spectacular outside shooters in college with unlimited range. Yet they can't seem to shoot once they got to the pro. How can you explain that?
Curiously, guys who play with Nash in Phoenix all seem to shoot really well from 3 pt but they can't seem to shoot too well playing somewhere else. It seems that alot of it is mental. Good outside shooting is contagious. I think that that is why we should always have Donte and Beno in the game. They are good shooters and can really elevate the other guys.
 
Bricklayer

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#2
#2
jtt said:
It's frustrating that since Pedrag and Bibby we can't find a shooter. We tried to draft them. Garcia and Douby were both spectacular outside shooters in college with unlimited range. Yet they can't seem to shoot once they got to the pro. How can you explain that?
Curiously, guys who play with Nash in Phoenix all seem to shoot really well from 3 pt but they can't seem to shoot too well playing somewhere else. It seems that alot of it is mental. Good outside shooting is contagious. I think that that is why we should always have Donte and Beno in the game. They are good shooters and can really elevate the other guys.
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a) not sure where this Cisco can't shoot stuff got started, but he's been nearly 40% from 3 each of the past three seasons.

b) and...er...Kevin Martin ring a bell? Fact is it was only a couple of seasons ago we were one of the better shooting teams in the league. Then we finally, and I do mean FINALLY, realized just how irrelevant a distinction that is and went radically in a different direction. That is the only reason for what I imagine will be a temporary dearth of pure shooters. We finally figured out that they are the roleplayers you add last around the stars rather than the stars themselves.
 
NME

NME

Starter
#3
#3
If Bibby counts as a shooter by hitting high-30's from three and mid-40's overall, then Beno, Omri, Donte and Cisco all qualify as shooters.
 
J

jtt

G-League
#4
#4
Bricklayer said:
a) not sure where this Cisco can't shoot stuff got started, but he's been nearly 40% from 3 each of the past three seasons.

b) and...er...Kevin Martin ring a bell? Fact is it was only a couple of seasons ago we were one of the better shooting teams in the league. Then we finally, and I do mean FINALLY, realized just how irrelevant a distinction that is and went radically in a different direction. That is the only reason for what I imagine will be a temporary dearth of pure shooters. We finally figured out that they are the roleplayers you add last around the stars rather than the stars themselves.
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If you round up then everybody shoots the same. Cisco: .370, Kmart: .380. Those are ok. Not good enough to scare anybody or stretch the defense.
Examples of shooters: Nash: .432, Korver:.410, Miller: .405 (shot .480 last year).
 
NME

NME

Starter
#5
#5
You say you like Donte and Beno, and they both shot .377 from three last year. Bibby only hit 40% from three once in 12 seasons.
 
Fear the Putin

Fear the Putin

Starter
#7
#7
Garcia can shoot. I think you've just forgotten his shooting ability since you haven't seen him at 100% for more than a year.

There are a limited amount of pure shooters who are also superstars. Kobe is one of them. Carmello can be put in that class. Nash, Dirk as well.

I think you need two have 2 great shooters on the floor to actually force the defense to stretch.
 
J

jtt

G-League
#8
#8
NME said:
You say you like Donte and Beno, and they both shot .377 from three last year. Bibby only hit 40% from three once in 12 seasons.
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I think the point here is that we don't have good, consistent shooters. Beno and Donte are not great shooters but they are one of the better ones last year. The rest are just inconsistent and streaky. I think the goal is to build a championship team so we need to find a great shooter especially when the game is on the line. The thing with Bibby was that he is clutch from outside when the game is on the line and he is not streaky.
 
Bricklayer

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#9
#9
Two years ago Kevin shot .415 from 3pt land, Cisco shot .398, and Salmons shot .418. We won 17 games.

This year the Lakers had exactly three players shoot better than .355 from 3pt land. One of them was Farmar, who shot .376 as the 8th man. The other two were Josh Powel and Luke Walton, who took 17 and 16 threes respectively in garbagetime. The Lakers won the title.
 
Tetsujin

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
#10
#10
jtt said:
It's frustrating that since Pedrag and Bibby we can't find a shooter. We tried to draft them. Garcia and Douby were both spectacular outside shooters in college with unlimited range. Yet they can't seem to shoot once they got to the pro. How can you explain that?
Curiously, guys who play with Nash in Phoenix all seem to shoot really well from 3 pt but they can't seem to shoot too well playing somewhere else. It seems that alot of it is mental. Good outside shooting is contagious. I think that that is why we should always have Donte and Beno in the game. They are good shooters and can really elevate the other guys.
Click to expand...
So first you say we aren't athletic enough and now you say that we can't shoot. It seems to me you're just trying to find things to complain about. What's next? A diatribe about the diminishing sizes of drink cups at Arco Arena?
 
King Baller

King Baller

All-Star
#11
#11
Bibby was clutch! But did not shoot for average.

Cisco is a good outside shooter. Omri was good the first half of last season, second half, not so much. Donte is an OK shooter. Beno is deadly on the little mid-range pullup and can hit the 3.

The thing is to have players that require double teams so you kick to an open shooter. 1, 2 even 3 passes around the 3 point line until a guy has a wide open shot.

Tyreke is going to attract multiple defenders even more than last year. Teams were mobbing Cousins in Summer league. Their team mates will have open looks, they gotta knock them down!

I would be OK giving Morrison or Douby a shot. As well as a couple of Summer league guys. You might get lucky on a reclaimation project or on a young guy.

KB
 
J

jtt

G-League
#12
#12
Tetsujin said:
So first you say we aren't athletic enough and now you say that we can't shoot. It seems to me you're just trying to find things to complain about. What's next? A diatribe about the diminishing sizes of drink cups at Arco Arena?
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How many games did we play last year where we had better 3pt shooting than our opponent?
 
Tetsujin

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
#13
#13
jtt said:
How many games did we play last year where we had better 3pt shooting than our opponent?
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Our 3pt%:.349
Opp %: .357

Out opponents outshot us from the arc by *gasp* .8%.

By comparison
The Boston Celtics 3pt%: .348
Their Opp %: .342

The mighty Cs actually shot worse from the three point line than us. Their opponents shot worse than then so it can be argued that we need to do a better job of defending the arc. Or maybe, just maybe, three point shooting isn't all that important.
 
NME

NME

Starter
#14
#14
Tetsujin said:
So first you say we aren't athletic enough and now you say that we can't shoot. It seems to me you're just trying to find things to complain about. What's next? A diatribe about the diminishing sizes of drink cups at Arco Arena?
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If we can put together a team that bombs from long range, jumps out of the gym, and serves dollar beers in bucket-sized cups, we'll be on our way.
 
Tetsujin

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
#17
#17
eflat said:
Care to look up similar stats on free-throws? That probably hurt us more than 3's.
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Our FT%: .726
Opp FT%:.774

Nearly a 5% difference, so yes there was a bigger gap there but not too large of a margin (It was a smaller margin than I expected). I think that our major problem was our revolving door style of interior defense (something that I think is harder to put in a stat) is what really killed us the most.
 
J

jtt

G-League
#18
#18
NME said:
If we can put together a team that bombs from long range, jumps out of the gym, and serves dollar beers in bucket-sized cups, we'll be on our way.
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I think that's what they're trying to do in Miami.
I have faith in Petrie. I sense a big shooter coming to town soon. Doesn't hurt to dream.
 
Chupacabra

Chupacabra

Starter
#19
#19
I think it should also be understood that our team doesnt have a hard time scoring points. Not even last year. I understand the importance of a shooter on this team, but unless we're struggling to score points then how much sense does it make to worry about shooting?
 
ParniValjak

ParniValjak

All-Star
#20
#20
It would be nice to add another deep shooter to the mix but IMHO I think with Cisco, Greene, Omri and even Beno, we have enough players that can strech the defence with thier shooting.

Cisco is a 40% 3PT shooter and Greene can easily reach that level as well. Casspi and Beno might be a couple of percent worse but they can still punich you from long range. We don't have a lights out shooter like we had in Peja but overall we have some good shooter on the roster. It would be nice if we could add another couple in the backcourt.
 
J

jtt

G-League
#21
#21
Čarolija said:
It would be nice to add another deep shooter to the mix but IMHO I think with Cisco, Greene, Omri and even Beno, we have enough players that can strech the defence with thier shooting.

Cisco is a 40% 3PT shooter and Greene can easily reach that level as well. Casspi and Beno might be a couple of percent worse but they can still punich you from long range. We don't have a lights out shooter like we had in Peja but overall we have some good shooter on the roster. It would be nice if we could add another couple in the backcourt.
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Cisco is at .370 but he has the ability to shoot the deep ball for sure. It's mental. He's turning 30 this year and hopefully can focus to shoot like he can. We drafted him for shooting. He's going to get a lot of playing time. If he gets injured again like he always does then we're going to need a backup 2 who can shoot.
 
chasen4r1

chasen4r1

Starter
#22
#22
jtt said:
Cisco is at .370 but he has the ability to shoot the deep ball for sure. It's mental. He's turning 30 this year and hopefully can focus to shoot like he can. We drafted him for shooting. He's going to get a lot of playing time. If he gets injured again like he always does then we're going to need a backup 2 who can shoot.
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Where did get that idea?

05-06 = 67 Games
06-07 = 79 Games
07-08 = 79 Games
08-09 = 65 Games
09-10 = 25 Games

Except for last years freak accident, he's been fairly reliable. I wouldn't say he's always injured.
If you factor out last season.. Cisco actually played in 88% of our teams games.
 
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J

jtt

G-League
#23
#23
chasen4r1 said:
Where did get that idea?

05-06 = 67 Games
06-07 = 79 Games
07-08 = 79 Games
08-09 = 65 Games
09-10 = 25 Games

Except for last years freak accident, he's been fairly reliable. I wouldn't say he's always injured.
If you factor out last season.. Cisco actually played in 88% of our teams games.
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Trend isn't good is it? Is it aging?
 
chasen4r1

chasen4r1

Starter
#24
#24
I think it's a little premature to say theres a trend. His rookie year, Garcia missed 15 games, which isn't the best. He bounced back the next two seasons though, playing 79 in each. He went from two 79 game seasons (only missing four games in two years) to a 65 game season. Yes, that season his games played went back down, but so far I see no trend.

Now we enter the 09-10 season. At the beginning of the season, his exercise ball exploded and his weights crushed his arm. I'd like to think of that as an exception. Doesn't matter how old or young you are, that freak accident can happen to anybody and can seriously injure anybody. We will never know how many games Francisco would have been able to play last year had his exercise ball not exploded. We should probably wait till this season is all said and done before we start noticing this trend you speak of.
 
J

jtt

G-League
#27
#27
chasen4r1 said:
Where did get that idea?

05-06 = 67 Games
06-07 = 79 Games
07-08 = 79 Games
08-09 = 65 Games
09-10 = 25 Games

Except for last years freak accident, he's been fairly reliable. I wouldn't say he's always injured.
If you factor out last season.. Cisco actually played in 88% of our teams games.
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If you do the math right, he actually played 78% not 88%. In the last 2 seasons he only played half the games. That's not reliable in my book. You can say it was a freak accident or whatever but the end result is the same. Maybe he has bad luck? What's going to happen to him this coming season? He'll get hit by lightning?
 
J

jtt

G-League
#28
#28
Cisco has had several freak accidents on the court and off the court. I'm not going to try to explain why. Missing half of the games in last 2 seasons and hitting 30 years old does not bode well for Cisco. I wish him the best but you can't manage a team with hope. You got to manage your risk. Right now, not have a capable 2 backup with shooting range is a big risk. If we have another terrible season the coming year because Cisco gets hurt again, and we have no capable backup at the 2, having the "freak accident" excuse is not going to do anybody any good.
 
Spike

Spike

Subsidiary Intermediary
Staff member
#29
#29
Hold on there - half the games? There are 82 games in a season.

65/82 = 79%
25/82 = 30%

Why not just lump ALL of his seasons together vs. potential games played? (77%) Because you know things don't change from one off-season to the next. Especially with regard to weight training, coaching changes, or other such silly stuff. But don't let the math get in the way of a good argument.
 
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