Draft Combine Measurements !!!!
- Thread starter Peter_Gibbons
- Start date
Here's an article from Alan Stein a renoun trainer. Interesting insights..
http://blog.strongerteam.com/
http://blog.strongerteam.com/
Looking at the measurements confirmed something I saw on video: Aminu doesn't have much hops - but his massive wingspan allows him to dunk at will. But on video I noted that he really doesn't elevate that much - unlike Josh Smith, who's head typically grazes the rafters.
Not sure how big a deal this is, but certainly lowers Aminu's stock in the "freak athlete/upside" arena...Wes Johnson, please stand up.
Not sure how big a deal this is, but certainly lowers Aminu's stock in the "freak athlete/upside" arena...Wes Johnson, please stand up.
Agreed about Aminu on the athleticism but really I think all that does is serve to educate us on the source of his abilities. At times he seems to soar over the rest to grab rebounds etc but it must come from his quickness, long arms and good fundamentals.
Regarding the tests and measurements- the system may be flawed but it's what we have. To guys like us perhaps those numbers reveal nothing, but to a GM or scout that has particular concerns about a player it can possibly be quite valuable information.
Another thing- I keep seeing many here say they trust their eyes over measurements but so many prospects were forgotten about after the measurements were released.
IDK but I'll be honest with you- I think very few here are using the information correctly.
Regarding the tests and measurements- the system may be flawed but it's what we have. To guys like us perhaps those numbers reveal nothing, but to a GM or scout that has particular concerns about a player it can possibly be quite valuable information.
Another thing- I keep seeing many here say they trust their eyes over measurements but so many prospects were forgotten about after the measurements were released.
IDK but I'll be honest with you- I think very few here are using the information correctly.
Well of course you're talking to me so Cole Aldrich is the first to come to mind. We all watched him over the course of his career come off strong as an ox, I mean 300 pounders couldn't back him down. He weighs in at 237 and he's off the radar of many as being too small and weak to play the position despite what we've seen with out own eyes. It was a shock that he weighed that little and that he was only 6'9" because of what we had seen.
Since seeing that example I've seen others but I did not make a note of it because I didn't think I would need the info later but I can stay alert on it from now on. It's funny but we have to make our own minds up on a combination of all the data, and maybe it's me but often times what we see is in stark contrast to what is measured out, or when any two bits of information don't seem to coincide, it's my opinion that often times the wrong direction is supported.
It' just a difference of opinion and really I should just avoid this site until draft day- we're just rambling here. I love the team like you guys do though and it's hard to walk away lol. I wasn't on this board last year at this time though I read it sometimes- that made it a lot easier to wait for draft night. Damn you KF!
Since seeing that example I've seen others but I did not make a note of it because I didn't think I would need the info later but I can stay alert on it from now on. It's funny but we have to make our own minds up on a combination of all the data, and maybe it's me but often times what we see is in stark contrast to what is measured out, or when any two bits of information don't seem to coincide, it's my opinion that often times the wrong direction is supported.
It' just a difference of opinion and really I should just avoid this site until draft day- we're just rambling here. I love the team like you guys do though and it's hard to walk away lol. I wasn't on this board last year at this time though I read it sometimes- that made it a lot easier to wait for draft night. Damn you KF!
That's not really comparable to what I was saying though. Height, length, reach, weight, body fat, etc. are much more reliable measurements than athletic tests. They tell exactly what they're meant to tell. I mean, you might get little variances here and there if you measured those things multiple times, but I think you'll get large variances if you did the same thing with athletic tests. Athletic tests (especially the way they administer them) ignore way too many variables.
Actually those tests are similar. Height weight etc can be just as misleading as the rest- they paint a physical picture of the player but how it's used is not in the discussion. I know that we were speaking of different things though.
Also I know that we have had this discussion before, and despite the example I site being a player you may have felt that way about it was not you I was thinking about when I wrote that.
Increasingly I see guys show the numbers, then compare to what they've seen and prefer the numbers. I just don't get it.
You're talking about how much importance are attached about their height, weight, and length, that's an entirely different discussion.
If athletic tests accurately measured athleticism that was most important to in-game play, then I would place a lot of importance onto them, but they don't do that. Even if you ignore how poor (by design) these tests are at showing how good their in-game athleticism, you still have a big issue with all the variances. Damion James' max vertical was 4 inches less this year than it was last year. There are too many variables that will affect the results for these results to have that much meaning. Height, weight, length, etc. are much more consistently quantifiable.
If athletic tests accurately measured athleticism that was most important to in-game play, then I would place a lot of importance onto them, but they don't do that. Even if you ignore how poor (by design) these tests are at showing how good their in-game athleticism, you still have a big issue with all the variances. Damion James' max vertical was 4 inches less this year than it was last year. There are too many variables that will affect the results for these results to have that much meaning. Height, weight, length, etc. are much more consistently quantifiable.
Last edited:
Actually that's the discussion I am having. I didn't quote anyone to start this so this was my intention to begin with- I was not responding to anyone.
My position is that height weight etc amount to information that can be just a misused as the rest. I'm not arguing whether or not those stats are concrete- you've mistaken me for entering your conversation I think.
I won't consider someone because their vert measured higher than I expected, nor will I flip out about weight or height if I have seen that it is not an issue. An example of that is Wesley Johnson: I was concerned about what I viewed to be low weight for his position but after considering his style of play and watching his game more I came to the conclusion that it was a non-issue. Now I'm all about Wesley Johnson.
Some super surprising things @ the athleticism tests
- Ed Davis vert = 36 while Favors is only 35.5 and Udoh was way behind at 33.5
- Luke Babbit came in at 37.5 beating WESLEY JOHNSON who recorded at a 37 and Gordan Hayward came in 34.5 while Aminu(who was considered a "super athlete") came in at 33.5
Babbit's stock has to be sky rocketing..measured well..proved his athletic and can shoot lights out
setting himself up as a top 10 pick
- Ed Davis vert = 36 while Favors is only 35.5 and Udoh was way behind at 33.5
- Luke Babbit came in at 37.5 beating WESLEY JOHNSON who recorded at a 37 and Gordan Hayward came in 34.5 while Aminu(who was considered a "super athlete") came in at 33.5
Babbit's stock has to be sky rocketing..measured well..proved his athletic and can shoot lights out
setting himself up as a top 10 pick
David Thompson was one of my favorite players. Probably could have been a HOF player if he hadn't gotten injured. Great hops and lightning quick. Just a great player.
As far as the measurements and agility drills go. I think they're interesting and can sometimes confirm our suspicions about one thing or another. But unless someone is listed at 6'10" and turns out to be 6'7", I don't think they really play that much into a teams decisions.
You don't watch a player for 3 or 4 years from highschool and into college, and throw it all out the window over an inch here or a slow agility drill there. I do think the individual workouts can be influencial because you have the opportunity to pit players you might have rated somewhat equal against one another. Such as last year when Tyreke made such a big impression against Jennings, Curry and company.
We've had this discussion before and I suspect there will always be disagreement between the the skill camp and the athletic camp. Naturally you want the best of both worlds if possible. If you get one of those, then you've got a player. Remember, in every draft class, the measuring stick for every player are the other players in his draft class. Because thats who they've been competing against. The higher the overall quality of the draft class, the better your chances of getting a good player.
One of my mind games is to take a player I really like and project him into a past draft. Would he go higher, or perhaps lower. For instance. Last years draft was deep in point guards, and weak in big men. After Griffin, there was no solid all around big man. Monroe dropped out, and I think at one time he was projected around 8th or perhaps a little higher. So the fact that he's been projected as high as 4th on some boards, and in a class deep in bigs, tells me that he's more highly thought of this year. Rightly or wrongly. By the same token, a player like Jerome Jordan, who last year was on the bubble between the bottom of the first round and the top of the second round, must have showed little improvement to be projected in the middle of the second round this year. Again, rightly or wrongly.
Its far from an exact science..
As far as the measurements and agility drills go. I think they're interesting and can sometimes confirm our suspicions about one thing or another. But unless someone is listed at 6'10" and turns out to be 6'7", I don't think they really play that much into a teams decisions.
You don't watch a player for 3 or 4 years from highschool and into college, and throw it all out the window over an inch here or a slow agility drill there. I do think the individual workouts can be influencial because you have the opportunity to pit players you might have rated somewhat equal against one another. Such as last year when Tyreke made such a big impression against Jennings, Curry and company.
We've had this discussion before and I suspect there will always be disagreement between the the skill camp and the athletic camp. Naturally you want the best of both worlds if possible. If you get one of those, then you've got a player. Remember, in every draft class, the measuring stick for every player are the other players in his draft class. Because thats who they've been competing against. The higher the overall quality of the draft class, the better your chances of getting a good player.
One of my mind games is to take a player I really like and project him into a past draft. Would he go higher, or perhaps lower. For instance. Last years draft was deep in point guards, and weak in big men. After Griffin, there was no solid all around big man. Monroe dropped out, and I think at one time he was projected around 8th or perhaps a little higher. So the fact that he's been projected as high as 4th on some boards, and in a class deep in bigs, tells me that he's more highly thought of this year. Rightly or wrongly. By the same token, a player like Jerome Jordan, who last year was on the bubble between the bottom of the first round and the top of the second round, must have showed little improvement to be projected in the middle of the second round this year. Again, rightly or wrongly.
Its far from an exact science..
Just goes to show you. Don't go on memory.. Especially if your my age. Got to thinking about Thompson and looked up his stats. Yep, there he was in the HOF. Thats what I get for not checking. My gut was telling me he was, but my brain, which is useless at times, was telling me that his career was too short to reach the HOF. Anyway, he was a great player, even if his career was shortlived..
Don't ignore the No Step Vertical Leap. Wesley Johnson was number 1, and Derrick Favors was tied for second 1/2 inch behind that. A lot of times that measurement is a better indication of how athletic a player will appear during games because you don't often have a chance to get a running start at the basket. Especially when rebounding, blocking shots, or catching the ball under the basket.
Also, it was pointed out somewhere (NBAdraft.net message board maybe, I forget) that the guys who were measured the past two years all came out 3 or 4 inches shorter this year in the Vertical Leap tests than they did last year so that should be a consideration when looking at these numbers as well.
Also, it was pointed out somewhere (NBAdraft.net message board maybe, I forget) that the guys who were measured the past two years all came out 3 or 4 inches shorter this year in the Vertical Leap tests than they did last year so that should be a consideration when looking at these numbers as well.
Last edited:
The combine is what it is. Just another set of figures you can look at. What it isn't, is reactionary. I've always beleived that how you react during a game, how you jump, or how quickly you move is almost always going to be superior to how you jump, move, etc during a combine.
When I played baseball I was a centerfielder. During one game our third baseman was injured. Since I had played the infield before, they moved me into play third. I hated playing third by the way. The next inning a batter for the other team hit a scorching linedrive headed toward left field. I leaped into the air and managed to snag it in the webbing of my glove. Later I was showed a picture someone had snapped of my catch. My feet looked to be a good 40 or so inches off the ground.
Now I had a pretty good vertical, but I can guarantee you that I didn't have a 40 inch vertical. At least not when I was trying. But when the adrenaline is flowing in the heat of battle, the imposed limits of our own mind can be overcome. If one were to go by the results of the combine alone, then Durant wouldn't have been drafted as high as he was. He was slow, weak, and couldn't jump. I wonder what happened there?
So take the stats for what their worth. Another small bit if information to be added to the rest of what you know. Also remember when judging a player that there's a difference between fast and quick. One is about speed and other is about reflex action. Webber didn't have the greatest vertical, but he got the ball through the basket quicker than anyone I ever saw.
This is something I think a lot of people forget about when looking at combine #s. When I was in HS I played PF on defense and PG on offense. I stand 6 feet, but played for a small school. I always wanted to dunk a basketball, but can't palm a ball which makes it more difficult. I was able to jump up and get both palms on the rim (no-step) when trying to jump my highest. However, I was told by many people that during games I often got my elbows above the rim when going for rebounds ofter boxing out. I could NEVER come close outside of a game.
If Monroe moves up, my bet is because they are looking at the fact that he's not really bad at anything and has no red flags. He may not be great at some things, but he is a multi-dimensional player with a good BB IQ. Monroe is the kind of guy that you aren't going to strike out on. Some of these other guys are going to major whiffs, and that's how you get fired as a GM. That doesn't make me ga-ga about Monroe however. He just doesn't make enough of an impact on the game for me.
Regarding athletic/skill thing, I've been waffling on that. The thing I look at more than anything is the player's impact on the game. If the player can do that with raw athleticism, great, I love him, especially if it looks like he can develop his skills. The player just can't be athletic and have no impact on the game though. If the player has an impact because of his skill and a certain level of athleticism, I can like that player too, as long as I don't believe he's going to get overwhelmed by NBA athleticism (Hayward fits the bill for me with that situation).
Regarding the work outs, I think Reynolds has it exactly right. Some things you can't see in a player because the player is not asked by the coach to do that particular thing. You can't judge what you don't see. So the Kings are looking specifically at drills to see how players do in those things they haven't seen on the floor.
Regarding athletic/skill thing, I've been waffling on that. The thing I look at more than anything is the player's impact on the game. If the player can do that with raw athleticism, great, I love him, especially if it looks like he can develop his skills. The player just can't be athletic and have no impact on the game though. If the player has an impact because of his skill and a certain level of athleticism, I can like that player too, as long as I don't believe he's going to get overwhelmed by NBA athleticism (Hayward fits the bill for me with that situation).
Regarding the work outs, I think Reynolds has it exactly right. Some things you can't see in a player because the player is not asked by the coach to do that particular thing. You can't judge what you don't see. So the Kings are looking specifically at drills to see how players do in those things they haven't seen on the floor.