I don't cut Kevin slack because of all of last off-season and him talking about stepping up and becoming the leader of the team. That never really came to fruition when the team looked at him for it, sure he had some injury problems but you lead by example. We saw the end result of that, a leaderless ball club that was lost on the court. I'm willing to give kevin more chances, but as far as I can tell he's work on becoming a more explosive scorer again instead of working on his defense as far as the article actually tells us
Amick on K-Mart
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And his surrounding cast look worse because the game he plays doesn't consistently make them better.
I can see both sides of this argument, and in the past, I've leaned towards hanging onto Kevin. His D was atrocious, but then there were those 40+ point games.
Following the draft, I think he's kind of redundant, and trade bait.
I can see both sides of this argument, and in the past, I've leaned towards hanging onto Kevin. His D was atrocious, but then there were those 40+ point games.
Following the draft, I think he's kind of redundant, and trade bait.
Brickie makes some good points. Let's face it, Kevin Martin is pretty soft. He's like Peja, a guy who could shoot and score but can't do much else. And more importantly, can't lead a team and win games for you. At most he's going to be sidekick star, not the main attraction. Hopefully he'll be the sidekick star to Tyreke. With that said, I think maybe we're expecting too much from Kevin??? afterall, he's done pretty good for being a late first round pick, and has done better than anyone would have ever expected.
Again, we assume alot. Tyreke is not a star yet. He's not even a starting PG yet, no matter what Joe says. And, Kevin is certainly not redundent. Especially since no one has stepped up to relieve Tyreke of his PG responsibilities.
No one likes to be bad mouthed in the Press or on the internet. And, most people don't have the skills to handle an interview well, especially when their dealing with subjects where they are emotionally involved. No one has said that Kevin isn't working on his weaker skills. There's no reason to believe that his defense won't be better or even above average this year.
IMHO, in his rookies season, Evans will not be the leading scorer on the team. He's good enough, but the team needs his playmaking more than his scoring and that's what Westphal will ask for. So, that's what Tyreke is going to give. He may end up be the crunch time guy & the finisher but Martin will be the leading scorer because that's what the team needs from him. No way the Kings trade Martin any time soon, at least until they see what the combo can do or unless Martin asks for a trade.
No one likes to be bad mouthed in the Press or on the internet. And, most people don't have the skills to handle an interview well, especially when their dealing with subjects where they are emotionally involved. No one has said that Kevin isn't working on his weaker skills. There's no reason to believe that his defense won't be better or even above average this year.
IMHO, in his rookies season, Evans will not be the leading scorer on the team. He's good enough, but the team needs his playmaking more than his scoring and that's what Westphal will ask for. So, that's what Tyreke is going to give. He may end up be the crunch time guy & the finisher but Martin will be the leading scorer because that's what the team needs from him. No way the Kings trade Martin any time soon, at least until they see what the combo can do or unless Martin asks for a trade.
In a perfect world, we'd probably do something like play them together for a couple of months, to showcase the fully healed Kevin, then trade him for someone like, oh, let's say Deron Williams. I'm not advocating this particular trade, or saying that it's possible. Just an example off the top of my head.
The Kings become better overall, I think, and defense improves with the replacement of the weakest link. We can play a motion offense, or a more classical offense, or switch between. We get some leadership, too. If our kids developed to their full potentials, we'd be one good defensive PF/C away from having a very dangerous team.
In an imperfect world, Geoff would let caution get the better of him, the Maloofs would worry that trading Kevin would be unpopular with a lot of fans, and nothing would get done.
The Kings become better overall, I think, and defense improves with the replacement of the weakest link. We can play a motion offense, or a more classical offense, or switch between. We get some leadership, too. If our kids developed to their full potentials, we'd be one good defensive PF/C away from having a very dangerous team.
In an imperfect world, Geoff would let caution get the better of him, the Maloofs would worry that trading Kevin would be unpopular with a lot of fans, and nothing would get done.
The Peja analogy is tried and true, but this thread makes me wonder if Kevin will be this year's Salmons; the consistent positive contributions spun around into examples of selfishness and inability to adapt. Kevin didn't take a leadership role to motivate the team to greatness, so now we make him our leader of failure.
you can't blame it all on kevin on our 17 win season, and on the other hand, i dont think he has "it" he doesnt have that superstar attribute. i think tyreke has more "it" than kevin. kevin will play this season out and if petrie is smart, trade in 2010. where every1 is hungry for "stars". kevin martin for wilson chandler anyone?
p.s. i blame last season on beno and natt.
p.s. i blame last season on beno and natt.
Wow... comparing Kevin to Salmons in selfishness is ridiculous. Kevin is no where near as selfish as Salmons and in those games where he is, its because no one else can get it done... What is the best player on our team supposed when the rest of our players consist of backups and bench players? I'm not saying Spencer and Jason are going to stay that way, but you can't tell me they would start on a championship team right now. They aren't ready for that.
Note that Paul Westphal coached two of the highest scoring PGs of all time in Kevin Johnson and Gary Payton. He may believe in the traditional PG trait of being the primary ballhandler, but there is no evidence at all that he is going to be insisting on or looking for a true pass first mentality. His pro PGs have also been his best offensive players.
90's Michael Jordan by himself would never be able to beat an NBA team.
Your post is "wrong". I'm not trying to lump you into a category here, but people seem to think that 1 player will make a team. Superstar can be a ridiculous word that equates to magician and savior. Martin needs a good team around him.
Your post is "wrong". I'm not trying to lump you into a category here, but people seem to think that 1 player will make a team. Superstar can be a ridiculous word that equates to magician and savior. Martin needs a good team around him.
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ugh... the entire team is soft, singling out martin gains us nothing unless we trade him for a superstar and evans becomes a worthwhile starting sg.... i proposed a martin/nocioni for tmac trade in a thread earlier in the month that wasnt very popular. it doesnt address our toughness issue but it would get rid of martin and nocioni for a huge expiring contract.
now that i think about it... i would rather keep martin and find a real number 1 option for the team. but i wont go any further because i dont want to turn this into a trade thread.
martin isnt a franchise player, but no one else on our team is either.... we need a superstar on this team, if we had one we wouldnt be having this argument. we all know martin would be the 2nd best number 2 option in the league after pau gasol. though he could be number 1 on the lakers and it wouldnt change anything. well, kobe would have a hissyfit like a little girl but the lakers would still win 60+ games.... but what other big name players are out there that arent sg's? lebron doesnt count, he's untouchable...
now that i think about it... i would rather keep martin and find a real number 1 option for the team. but i wont go any further because i dont want to turn this into a trade thread.
martin isnt a franchise player, but no one else on our team is either.... we need a superstar on this team, if we had one we wouldnt be having this argument. we all know martin would be the 2nd best number 2 option in the league after pau gasol. though he could be number 1 on the lakers and it wouldnt change anything. well, kobe would have a hissyfit like a little girl but the lakers would still win 60+ games.... but what other big name players are out there that arent sg's? lebron doesnt count, he's untouchable...
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I've read enough of this forum over the years to know by now that this Bricklayer cat (1) knows about 1/4 of what he thinks he does and (2) will never admit he is wrong about much of anything, especially about Kevin Martin.
I'm interested to know how it's Kevin Martin's fault that the roster has been and may still be among the worst in the league. Trade Kevin Martin for ANY player in the league not named Kobe Bryant, Dwight Howard, LeBron James, Tim Duncan, or Dwyane Wade and last season's roster doesn't win many, if any, more games. Anybody that doesn't believe or understand that is totally clueless.
Most are simply expecting more out of Kevin than what he is. He is NOT one of those players listed above. Thing is, neither is 98% of the rest of the league. People need to accept Kevin for what he is, a very, very, very good player. And the Kings need more players like him. If they had 2 or 3 players as good as Martin, they wouldn't be in the mess they are in now.
I'm interested to know how it's Kevin Martin's fault that the roster has been and may still be among the worst in the league. Trade Kevin Martin for ANY player in the league not named Kobe Bryant, Dwight Howard, LeBron James, Tim Duncan, or Dwyane Wade and last season's roster doesn't win many, if any, more games. Anybody that doesn't believe or understand that is totally clueless.
Most are simply expecting more out of Kevin than what he is. He is NOT one of those players listed above. Thing is, neither is 98% of the rest of the league. People need to accept Kevin for what he is, a very, very, very good player. And the Kings need more players like him. If they had 2 or 3 players as good as Martin, they wouldn't be in the mess they are in now.
No in this case his post is "right". But not even on the whole superstar level thing -- mentioning Kevin in the same paragraph with the word superstar without a long long string of negative modifiers is silly, but that's not the point. Its the style of game. Perimeter superstars control the game and create offense for everybody else. To do this they have to have the ball in their hands a ton. A handy shorthand for "superstar class" perimeter players is the 3rd column -- assists. Does not mean every player with good assist totals is a superstar. But it does mean that every superstar on the perimeter has good assist totals. Its a quick and dirty way of seeing who is controlling the ball and the team -- superstar perimeter guys typically go 5+ in assists. Spot shooters, off the ball movers, pure scorers, can NEVER be superstars, no matter how good they are it. Control and create, and their presence has to resonate and reflect through the entire team.
Brandon Roy is better than Kevin anyway -- he more skills, in a bigger variety of areas. Not a GM in the league who wouldn't take him over Kevin. Bu where the gap becomes huge and could nto be more stark is on a "superstar" scale. There Roy clearly looks like a superstar -- he is not IMO, but he looks like one. He can be fairly compared to them -- his game is superstaresque. He dominates the ball, controls the game, creates for others. He's maybe the least of the superstar class players, but he plays like one. Kevin ont he other hand is on an entirely different track. The one dimesnional #2 option track. Peja is an obvious comparison. But so for that matter would a James Worthy or Kevin McHale have been -- except those guys made themselves valauable by being tremendous defenders as well.
Brandon Roy is better than Kevin anyway -- he more skills, in a bigger variety of areas. Not a GM in the league who wouldn't take him over Kevin. Bu where the gap becomes huge and could nto be more stark is on a "superstar" scale. There Roy clearly looks like a superstar -- he is not IMO, but he looks like one. He can be fairly compared to them -- his game is superstaresque. He dominates the ball, controls the game, creates for others. He's maybe the least of the superstar class players, but he plays like one. Kevin ont he other hand is on an entirely different track. The one dimesnional #2 option track. Peja is an obvious comparison. But so for that matter would a James Worthy or Kevin McHale have been -- except those guys made themselves valauable by being tremendous defenders as well.
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I don't blame Kevin for the worst record in the league. I just don't like how people think Kevin is untouchable and how he is going to be leader in this team. He will never ever be a leader in this team nor the best player(not a go-to guy, chucking at 4th quarter, playing no defense) unless we suck like this for the rest of Kevin Martin's career.
He will be a good 2-3rd option though...
He will be a good 2-3rd option though...
No one thinks Kevin is a super star... no one has claimed that. No one has said that he can "lead" our team into the promise land... what we are saying is that he can definitely help us get their. If we end up trading him for a star one of two things can happen... 1. the super star is old and fading, like a McGrady or Vince Carter. 2. we end up giving up too much in the trade.
Why would we give up K-Mart for a superstar when we can wait an extra year or two and get one in free agency? Why do we have to be contenders now? I don't get it.
Why would we give up K-Mart for a superstar when we can wait an extra year or two and get one in free agency? Why do we have to be contenders now? I don't get it.
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no superstar in their right mind would come here and i dont blame them.... thats why teams over pay for good but not great players like joe johnson and rashard lewis. we were luck to sign kevin at market value.... no one would pay martin more than what we paid him, look at ben gordon and i suspect that roys contract will be similar.
if evans is good enough of a player at sg i wouldnt mind a total salary dump which i why i started the martin for mcgrady thread.... there are so many expiring contracts this season we could essentially put a team over the top just so that we would be free of a contract like beno thanx to martin.
if evans is good enough of a player at sg i wouldnt mind a total salary dump which i why i started the martin for mcgrady thread.... there are so many expiring contracts this season we could essentially put a team over the top just so that we would be free of a contract like beno thanx to martin.
Bullseye !
Martin has been around for 5 years and I'm beginning to lose hope of seeing him one day playing defense. It's been 5 long years ! If the guy is not a chameleon or pretending to be a champion in character, after 5 years of criticisms on his defense, at least we could have seen a lot of improvement in his defense.
I'm sure glad we picked Evans, instead of Rubio. I think this is one of the benefits of having a more rounded and multitalented player ( Evans ), than another one-dimensional player Rubio. If Evans does not turn out to be the upgrade at PG, maybe he could be the answer in upgrading the SG position of the team.
Martin has been around for 5 years and I'm beginning to lose hope of seeing him one day playing defense. It's been 5 long years ! If the guy is not a chameleon or pretending to be a champion in character, after 5 years of criticisms on his defense, at least we could have seen a lot of improvement in his defense.
I'm sure glad we picked Evans, instead of Rubio. I think this is one of the benefits of having a more rounded and multitalented player ( Evans ), than another one-dimensional player Rubio. If Evans does not turn out to be the upgrade at PG, maybe he could be the answer in upgrading the SG position of the team.
Oops, did not know I had hit send. I finished up/edited that post this morning to be clearer methinks:
No in this case his post is "right". But not even on the whole superstar level thing -- mentioning Kevin in the same paragraph with the word superstar without a long long string of negative modifiers is silly, but that's not the point. Its the style of game. Perimeter superstars control the game and create offense for everybody else. To do this they have to have the ball in their hands a ton. A handy shorthand for "superstar class" perimeter players is the 3rd column -- assists. Does not mean every player with good assist totals is a superstar. But it does mean that every superstar on the perimeter has good assist totals. Its a quick and dirty way of seeing who is controlling the ball and the team -- superstar perimeter guys typically go 5+ in assists. Spot shooters, off the ball movers, pure scorers, can NEVER be superstars, no matter how good they are at it. Superstars control and create, and their presence has to resonate and reflect through the entire team.
Brandon Roy is better than Kevin anyway -- he more skills, in a bigger variety of areas. Not a GM in the league who wouldn't take him over Kevin. But where the gap becomes huge and could not be more stark is on a "superstar" scale. There Roy clearly looks like a superstar -- he is not IMO, but he looks like one. He can be fairly compared to them -- his game is superstaresque. He dominates the ball, controls the game, creates for others. He's maybe the least of the superstar class players, but he plays like one. Kevin ont he other hand is on an entirely different track. The one dimesnional #2 option track. Peja is an obvious comparison. But so for that matter would a James Worthy or Kevin McHale have been -- except those guys made themselves valauable by being tremendous defenders as well.
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The Risk of Trying
Sheesh, I can't believe all the negativity towards Kevin! To paraphrase the 2003 Bibby, 'Everyone has a right to their opinion. Here's mine:'
I give Kevin props for coming out on a bad wheel night after night, playing as he was able to play and doing what he thought would help his team. Whether or not it did seems to be a component of this debate, but Kevin didn't have to try. He could have rode the bench (ala Shaq and his pinkie toe), avoided a lot of humiliation, and kept his golden boy status intact as he waited for the next year...he didn't. He chose to fight alongside his teammates.
He contributed as best he thought he could - moving laterally was a problem but he could still run - and that extended to trying to step up as the team's leader. By all accounts, this was not the best fit for his personality, but he has enough of the necessary leadership ingredients that he was willing to try.
I think people are confusing the results with the player. If Kevin's contributions weren't 'actually' helping the team, I blame the head cases..er.."coaches" who were supposed to be able to see these things and make the necessary adjustments. Part of their job is selecting which best intentions - Artest had loads of em! - will actually be helpful to the larger effort.
When you come out and play with an injury, suck it up and don't b*tch about it, people will only see what's wrong and not have the information to put it in the proper context. When you try things you might fail at on a big public stage it's a risk - one that carries significant financial consequences in Kevin's case - but I'll back the well-intentioned risk-takers almost every time. They have a way of growing better and stronger with each attempt.
MizzouKing
Sheesh, I can't believe all the negativity towards Kevin! To paraphrase the 2003 Bibby, 'Everyone has a right to their opinion. Here's mine:'
I give Kevin props for coming out on a bad wheel night after night, playing as he was able to play and doing what he thought would help his team. Whether or not it did seems to be a component of this debate, but Kevin didn't have to try. He could have rode the bench (ala Shaq and his pinkie toe), avoided a lot of humiliation, and kept his golden boy status intact as he waited for the next year...he didn't. He chose to fight alongside his teammates.
He contributed as best he thought he could - moving laterally was a problem but he could still run - and that extended to trying to step up as the team's leader. By all accounts, this was not the best fit for his personality, but he has enough of the necessary leadership ingredients that he was willing to try.
I think people are confusing the results with the player. If Kevin's contributions weren't 'actually' helping the team, I blame the head cases..er.."coaches" who were supposed to be able to see these things and make the necessary adjustments. Part of their job is selecting which best intentions - Artest had loads of em! - will actually be helpful to the larger effort.
When you come out and play with an injury, suck it up and don't b*tch about it, people will only see what's wrong and not have the information to put it in the proper context. When you try things you might fail at on a big public stage it's a risk - one that carries significant financial consequences in Kevin's case - but I'll back the well-intentioned risk-takers almost every time. They have a way of growing better and stronger with each attempt.
MizzouKing
I agree that Martin is reasonably paid right now, at $50mil over 5 years? And if memory serves, that is the same number that Bricklayer was insisting we should throw at both Tyson Chandler and Nene over the past couple of years.
Why would we even consider that McGrady trade? Regardless of what you think of Kevin, there's not more than a handful of players in the league who will be free agents in the next year or two who are better players, one dimensional or not, and I would imagine the competition for those players will be intense.
IMHO, comparing K-Mart to either Ben Gordon OR Brandon Roy is ridiculous, for opposite reasons...
Why would we even consider that McGrady trade? Regardless of what you think of Kevin, there's not more than a handful of players in the league who will be free agents in the next year or two who are better players, one dimensional or not, and I would imagine the competition for those players will be intense.
IMHO, comparing K-Mart to either Ben Gordon OR Brandon Roy is ridiculous, for opposite reasons...
