Amick on K-Mart

rainmaker

rainmaker

Hall of Famer
#1
#1
http://www.sacbee.com/sports/story/2039010.html

I thought I would start this thread on Kevin since it seems Kings fans are split down the middle on whether they would like to keep him or not. Does this article change your mind at all? It seems Kevin's ankle was really bothering him the majority of the season, and he didn't get any credit for scoring 25ppg while playing "on one leg" in his words, but instead was often attacked for not playing defense.
 
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rhythmless

Starter
#3
#3
He's not "blind" to the haters. He addresses them, using his scoring as how good he is. I would like to see some admission of his lack of defense, whether through lack of fucus or injury. He only talks about his scoring.
 
Bricklayer

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#4
#4
rainmaker said:
http://www.sacbee.com/sports/story/2039010.html

I thought I would start this thread on Kevin since it seems Kings fans are split down the middle on whether they would like to keep him or not. Does this article change your mind at all? It seems Kevin's ankle was really bothering him the majority of the season, and he didn't get any credit for scoring 25ppg while playing "on one leg" in his words, but instead was often attacked for not playing defense.
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Still making excuses -- right in character. And still throwing out his offensive numbers in the ultimate clulessness about what the complaints are focused on.

At least he's putting in the offseason work now -- that is always a good sign, as is using somebody like Kobe as a model (although my opinion of Thorpe has sunk the more I hear him talk and I do wonder exactly what he is focusing on). Unfortunately there are relatively few skills we are asking him to work on -- the ability to dribble would be handy, but he's got most of what he needs. What is being asked of him is frankly heart and toughness, leadership and a willingness to sacrifice his precious empty offense for the sake of victory. Those things you don't pick up in the gym. So we'll see. Last year Kevin was that completely worthless teammate we've all had on the pickup courts -- the guy with offensive game who plays no defense at all and leaks out every single possession screaming at his rebounders to outlet him the ball so he can cherry pick another hoop. As one of those rebounders -- that guy can bite me. I'll pull it down wrap it up and sit on it before I reward selfish one dimensional prima donnaism.
 
VF21

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#5
#5
Bricklayer said:
Still making excuses -- right in character. And still throwing out his offensive numbers in the ultimate clulessness about what the complaints are focused on.

At least he's putting in the offseason work now -- that is always a good sign, as is using somebody like Kobe as a model (although my opinion of Thorpe has sunk the more I hear him talk and I do wonder exactly what he is focusing on). Unfortunately there are relatively few skills we are asking him to work on -- the ability to dribble would be handy, but he's got most of what he needs. What is being asked of him is frankly heart and toughness, leadership and a willingness to sacrifice his precious empty offense for the sake of victory. Those things you don't pick up in the gym. So we'll see. Last year Kevin was that completely worthless teammate we've all had on the pickup courts -- the guy with offensive game who plays no defense at all and leaks out every single possession screaming at his rebounders to outlet him the ball so he can cherry pick another hoop. As one of those rebounders -- that guy can bite me. I'll pull it down wrap it up and sit on it before I reward selfish one dimensional prima donnaism.
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Oh good grief - So now it's going to be attacks on Kev's character?!?! He's responding to direct questions. I know you don't like him and never have but at some point this just becomes ludicrous. He did have a myriad of problems with his ankle last year; it was pretty well documented.

And I'm sorry but I think your assessment of Kevin as "that completely worthless teammate" is way over the line.

I know...I'm too protective, too much a Martin homer, blah, blah, blah. Whatever. I'm just tired of the blanket condemnation of him no matter what he does or tries to do. He didn't get much help last year at all, he was playing hurt most of the year, and still he's the target of this stuff?

Yes, Martin's game may have its flaws; Kevin may have flaws, too. He's human - just like every other player on the team. He's also one of the few bright spots of the past few years, even though you were pretty much convinced he'd never amount to anything in this league.

I liked the article; I thought it was actually pretty fair, and I take Martin at his word that's he working hard to come back this year stronger than ever, healthy and looking forward to working with Evans.
 
Bricklayer

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#6
#6
VF21 said:
I know...I'm too protective, too much a Martin homer, blah, blah, blah. Whatever. I'm just tired of the blanket condemnation of him no matter what he does or tries to do. He didn't get much help last year at all, he was playing hurt most of the year, and still he's the target of this stuff?
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You about covered it.

And as alone as Keivn may have beem, it was his teammates that didn't get any help either...from Kevin.

But hey, I still flopped up 24ppg in a 17 win season! I'm a warrior! Not my fault!

The condemnation will stop, when Kevin Martin, losing prima donna scorer who's teams have lost and lost some more since he moved into the startiing lineup as a "star", becomes Kevin Martin, complete basketball player and teammate willing to sacrifice his stats for the team. Not before. And yes, this is about character. Are you about your numbers? Or are you about winning. Everytime Kevin opens his mouth he says he is about his numbers and his comfort. Not in a million zillion years would a guy like Manu Ginobili or pick your winner throw out his scoring stats as an excuse in a 17win season. Maybe Kobe, but then again, that kind of says it all about the sot of comparisons you obviously do not want to invite (work ethic yes, as a teammate no).

P.S. As an aside I should note that I have not entirely given up on Kevin in this respect. I don't think he is a bad guy, unless the money/kissing up has spoiled him, but I do think he has been allowed to skate far far too long on his scoring numbers without even being called to serious task for the rest. He was given a huge contract and annointed this team's "franchise player" without ever having proven anything or having any of the game for it (the franchise player stuff -- the contract was within range for his abilities). His agent was hired as part of the Kings front office. And in general was put in a position where he acheived wealth, golden boy status, security, and obsequious media cowtowing without ever having done anything but work on his offensive numbers.
 
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S

sdballer

Starter
#7
#7
Bricklayer said:
You about covered it.

And as alone as Keivn may have beem, it was his teammates that didn't get any help either...from Kevin.

But hey, I still flopped up 24ppg in a 17 win season! I'm a warrior! Not my fault!

The condemnation will stop, when Kevin Martin, losing prima donna scorer who's teams have lost and lost some more since he moved into the startiing lineup as a "star", becomes Kevin Martin, complete basketball player and teammate willing to sacrifice his stats for the team. Not before. And yes, this is about character. Are you about your numbers? Or are you about winning. Everytime Kevin opens his mouth he says he is about his numbers and his comfort. Not in a million zillion years would a guy like Manu Ginobili or pick your winner throw out his scoring stats as an excuse in a 17win season. Maybe Kobe, but then again, that kind of says it all about the sot of comparisons you obviously do not want to invite (work ethic yes, as a teammate no).

P.S. As an aside I should note that I have not entirely given up on Kevin in this respect. I don't think he is a bad guy, unless the money/kissing up has spoiled him, but I do think he has been alloed to skate far far too long on his scoring numbers without even being called to serious task for the rest.
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Nailed it!

Great scorer. And at this point, that's about it. I think his "I'm along for the ride, get me some players, etc. etc." attitude is getting old. He's paid too much to not own up to his flaws and to address where he needs to step up.
 
kupman

kupman

Starter
#8
#8
There were many, many things wrong with last year's team and Kevin's play is waaaaay down on the priority list of things that needs to corrected. In fact, if everybody played as "bad" as Kmart did this season I am pretty sure we would have won more than 17 games.
 
Jechtsphere

Jechtsphere

Starter
#9
#9
I love Kevin as much as anyone but If he showed half as much passion for defense and making his teammates better as he does for offense he'd already be a better player.

I take it your not a fan of Martin's flops Brick? :p
 
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sdballer

Starter
#10
#10
kupman said:
There were many, many things wrong with last year's team and Kevin's play is waaaaay down on the priority list of things that needs to corrected. In fact, if everybody played as "bad" as Kmart did this season I am pretty sure we would have won more than 17 games.
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Not sure about that. When your star player doesn't defend, takes plays off and is a generally selfish player, that rubs off and you end up with a team of players that perform the same way. Maybe with less talent and worse "numbers", but the same end result. I almost think you have a better chance of winning with a bunch of less talented John Brockman types than with a large group of more talented "numbers" guys.
 
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PoundForPound

Guest
#11
#11
I think Bricklayer nailed it. Though some Martin fans aren't able to see past their admiration for him. We won seventeen games. Now is not the time to be "bragging" about your scoring.
 
Gliesian

Gliesian

Bench
#12
#12
Kevin probably thought he was the only one that could make a basket on the team. To some degree, he was right; however, if you're going down in a ball of fire, you might as well hold hands. We all realize Kevin's shortcomings, but let's not forget just how good of a scorer he is. Keep him!
 
kingsnation

kingsnation

All-Star
#13
#13
Bricklayer said:
The condemnation will stop, when Kevin Martin, losing prima donna scorer who's teams have lost and lost some more since he moved into the startiing lineup as a "star"...
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These teams that have "lost and lost," have also featured a mentally broken-down Ron Artest, 3 Head Coaches (if you want to call them that,) A black hole named Salmons, A heartless Brad Miller, 2 Young bigs who are just learning AND.... Beno.

Kevin could drop 50 ppg, and we would've still sucked.

Surround MJ with the aforementioned team and he might've ended with 25 wins??
 
R

rhythmless

Starter
#14
#14
The article blatantly shows kmart making excuses. Winner's don't have excuses. The NBA is about results, just like the real world. He seems to rest on his 25ppg and free throw line numbers while deflecting the criticism that he is not a complete player.

A star in the making addresses ONLY his shortcomings. A star in the making takes each offseason to add one or two things they did not have in the postseason. Kmart has said he is working on his game this offseason. Unless he comes in with a renewed commitment to defense, and looks for his teammates, I will say he has peaked as a 25ppg scorer who does little else. There is no excuse to not hone your most glaring weaknesses, unless you feel you don't care to or you don't need to. Pick one. Either will tell you that he is not, nor will ever be, a star.

I hope he can prove me wrong.
 
Andre87

Andre87

Bench
#15
#15
"People can say what (they) want; that's fine with me," said Martin, who averaged 24.6 points per game on 42 percent shooting in his fifth season. "(But) I could go to the mirror and look at myself. I'm out there playing on one leg, averaging 25 (points per game) on one leg, and you can say what you want.
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man that really sounded immature and kobe-ish Kevin, shame on you!:rolleyes:
 
TTown Kings

TTown Kings

Bench
#16
#16
If his ankle was good enough for him to be able to score 25 a game I see no reason why he should be using it as any excuse for playing bad D. If he scored on a bad ankle then he should also be able to defend on a bad ankle. Scoring 25 points a game is great as long as you're not giving up 30 on the other end.
 
Bricklayer

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#17
#17
kingsnation said:
Surround MJ with the aforementioned team and he might've ended with 25 wins??
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You are obviously not old enoguh to have watched MJ. Or his early teams. He took a team with a rotation of Charles Oakley (as a rookie) John Paxon, Gene Banks, Brad Sellers and Dave Corzine to a 40 win season and the playoffs. Oh, and they had the immortal Granville Waiters too. Barring the season where he played 18 games, no team he was on ever won less than 38 games.

But Kevin does not have to be MJ to escape the criticism. Just leave it all out on the floor and quit hidign behind empty offensive numbers as excuses or validation. Jerry Stackhouse once averaged 29.8pts for a 32 win Detroit team as well. That's not what its about (and Stack was actually a somewhat more complete player at the time too, outpointguarding his pointguard and leading his team in assists at 5.1).
 
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kingsnation

kingsnation

All-Star
#18
#18
Bricklayer said:
Barring the season where he played 18 games, no team he was on ever won less than 38 games.
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Exactly why I say that this Kings team would've been the first not to. ;)

However, in all seriousness.. take any other superstar in the league and we would probably still be a lottery team.

The holes in Kevin's game seem much bigger because of his surrounding cast.
 
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Kevin_Martin_23

Kevin_Martin_23

G-League
#19
#19
good grief bricklayer, quit hating. everytime i see that you posted, i think to myself, "hmmm, what is he being sarcastic about now? or, what has he found to hate or complain about?" and im sorry that kmart isnt MJ. oh well. go kings
 
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swisshh

Starter
#20
#20
The question of eventually trading him is more complex than just asking whether or not he was hurt last year.

1. His trade value is high and the FO has routinely traded players at their low value, which has set progress back.
2. Fans never questioned his ability to score. They question his ability to contribute in more than just one way.
3. Fans question this because this team needs a lot more than scoring, mainly it needs passing, defense and rebounding.
4. Tyreke Evans plays the same position or will be playing the same position eventually. And Tyreke brings more to the table than Kevin, which is why KMart suddenly finds himself in trade discussions.
 
allrightythen

allrightythen

Starter
#22
#22
swisshh said:
The question of eventually trading him is more complex than just asking whether or not he was hurt last year.

1. His trade value is high and the FO has routinely traded players at their low value, which has set progress back.
2. Fans never questioned his ability to score. They question his ability to contribute in more than just one way.
3. Fans question this because this team needs a lot more than scoring, mainly it needs passing, defense and rebounding.
4. Tyreke Evans plays the same position or will be playing the same position eventually. And Tyreke brings more to the table than Kevin, which is why KMart suddenly finds himself in trade discussions.
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I think the hope is that Tyreke is a PG now and in the future meaning they don't want him and Kevin playing the same position.
 
W

wonjaeyou

G-League
#23
#23
allrightythen said:
I think the hope is that Tyreke is a PG now and in the future meaning they don't want him and Kevin playing the same position.
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I don't think Tyreke can be a legit PG in this league. But he offers a lot more stuff than Kevin in SG position. It means Kevin should be traded at som epoint. Unless he shows he can play D and be a go-to guy to lead the team. Winning 17 games won't cut it.
 
allrightythen

allrightythen

Starter
#26
#26
I have no problems with anything Kevin said. There is no reason for him to acknowledge his doubters. He has never tried to make himself out to be a franchise player but being the highest paid many here have criticized him as such.

I do believe that offense is easier than defense when trying to play with an ankle injury. In my experience it is easier to adjust or compensate for an injury when you know where you're going and have a plan as opposed to trying to react to an opponent.

"Its all about winning" and "..it's just a point of getting the team on the same page and getting back there to winning.." Nope, winning doesn't matter at all to him, he just wants to pad his stats and take home his paycheck.:rolleyes:
 
Bricklayer

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#27
#27
Kevin_Martin_23 said:
good grief bricklayer, quit hating. everytime i see that you posted, i think to myself, "hmmm, what is he being sarcastic about now? or, what has he found to hate or complain about?" and im sorry that kmart isnt MJ. oh well. go kings
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you would have found me fundamentally unamused as the captain rearranged the deck chairs on the Titanic too and rather prone to pointing out the rising water instead. When confronted by these occasional barbs I often wonder what exactly is the value of a fandom so blind that one cannot distinguish between a 17 win team and a 60 win team? In some ways I think it is quite related to the syndrome that got the team itself in so much trouble -- the refusal to admit or acknowledge that we were slipping and needed to change. In the case of the team that was cowardice.

A little lesson probably applicable to life in general: you don't get to a position as bad as this franchise has gotten to by accident. And you don't improve that position unless you CHANGE how you got there in the first place. Kevin is more than welcome to change, but he has shown few signs, and what he doesn't realize is that he is essentially a nothing. An empty nonentity in the NBA. No All Star votes, no All NBA, no Olympic team recruitment, no playoffs, no TV time. And there never will be until he starts playing like a winner, not a pretty boy. Consider the barbs from the fans a favor to Kevin -- we are trying to get him to wake up and smell the coffee before his legacy is cast in stone. Or in his case, in mud. Soft squishy mud.

But you know Kevin is cute, and softspoken. So he is worthy of a screenname, and that about covers it. Kevin's fans are Peja's fans, and for all the same reasons. And long after he is gone I would imagine that I will still be here to welcome the next group of fanboys/girls fiercely protecting whoever the next soft one dimensional cutie pie of the moment may be. Maybe the next one will be named Mark, or Zac or Biff. Being the mean guy is cool.
 
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iowamcnabb

iowamcnabb

Hall of Famer
#28
#28
I think a little too much is being made of Kevin's character. Its pretty obvious he is a sensitive guy who doesn't handle criticism well. As a defense mechanism, he drops offensive stats. He is what he is. As mentioned a few times, he would be one of the best #2 options in the nba but he isn't suited for the star role. Cut him some slack and watch what happens if all of our other up and comers develop. :)
 
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PoundForPound

Guest
#29
#29
iowamcnabb said:
I think a little too much is being made of Kevin's character. Its pretty obvious he is a sensitive guy who doesn't handle criticism well. As a defense mechanism, he drops offensive stats. He is what he is. As mentioned a few times, he would be one of the best #2 options in the nba but he isn't suited for the star role. Cut him some slack and watch what happens if all of our other up and comers develop. :)
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This is where I'm getting at. Haven't we been doing that too much???
 
Heuge

Heuge

Starter
#30
#30
Bricklayer said:
But you know Kevin is cute, and softspoken. So he is worthy of a screenname, and that about covers it. Kevin's fans are Peja's fans, and for all the same reasons. And long after he is gone I would imagine that I will still be here to welcome the next group of fanboys/girls fiercely protecting whoever the next soft one dimensional cutie pie of the moment may be. Maybe the next one will be named Mark, or Zac or Biff. Being the mean guy is cool.
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Awesome...Made my day. Props to the meanie!
 
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