2009 NBA Playoffs Thread
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This is the danger zone for the Rockets, and if they lose this series they will be somewhat unjustly accused of choking again. But they are dead evenly matched with the Blazers, and when they got their 3-1 lead, it was a "weak" 3-1, where they only had one more home game. They've got a rookie PG with very shaky control of the game, have all kinds of trouble scoring -- going into a madhouse in Portland for a Game 7 would be a brutal test for them.
Spurs are the one consistent high level team that I have never had even an ounce of dislike for. Perhaps Pistons might be on that list too, call me weird, but I have much more respect for the defensive teams than I do for mostly offense teams. Teams that beat the Lakers earn a lot of my respect too.
Lakers hate them, Suns didn't like them, Mav's didn't like them. Celtics... well now I'm starting to not like them. Cavs, not consistently high level yet, but I didn't like them the day they got Lebron.
Lakers hate them, Suns didn't like them, Mav's didn't like them. Celtics... well now I'm starting to not like them. Cavs, not consistently high level yet, but I didn't like them the day they got Lebron.
I hate the Spurs. Its a relatively newfound hate, like the last 10 years or so, since they got Tim Duncan and Pop took over. Being an Arizona hoops fan all my life I tolerated them because of Sean Elliot and back when they had Rodman I even kind of liked them.
But during this recent period they seem to be like cockroaches. They are ugly and when the rest of the NBA collapses around them they are the last ones standing. During this stretch I rarely felt like they were the best team in the NBA any given season though they've definitely been the most consistent. They just lack a certain aura.
But during this recent period they seem to be like cockroaches. They are ugly and when the rest of the NBA collapses around them they are the last ones standing. During this stretch I rarely felt like they were the best team in the NBA any given season though they've definitely been the most consistent. They just lack a certain aura.
With all due respect, pdx, I spit on your "aura." The Spurs have been a great team, and Tim Duncan is one of the best to ever do it. You say that "During this stretch I rarely felt like they were the best team in the NBA any given season though they've definitely been the most consistent, " to which I say that being consistently one of the top three teams in the NBA over a ten-year stretch is, in itself, as good a measure of greatness as there is, "aura" be damned.
Yeah, I don't really get the dislike of the Spurs, or Tim Duncan, or Pop. Ginobili's flopping? Sure. Bruce Bowen's dirty antics? Definitely. But Duncan? Class act, all the way. Pop? One of the best coaches in the game. Tony Parker has developed into one of the best players in basketball, as demonstrated by the one he dominated Game 2. I like the young guys like Roger Mason and Udoka (though I don't watch the Spurs all that often).
They did get a little petulant last season, and Pop's Hack-a-Whoever really destroyed an entire series last year for me, but overall the Spurs are a top notch organization, in my opinion. Can't muster more than an ounce of dislike for them.
They did get a little petulant last season, and Pop's Hack-a-Whoever really destroyed an entire series last year for me, but overall the Spurs are a top notch organization, in my opinion. Can't muster more than an ounce of dislike for them.
You can't be any less of a Vinny fan than I am, but I thought that was a great play that they drew up. It's Miller fault for not executing (three times in a row, no less: missed the layup, missed the first free throw, couldn't shoot a reboundable shot on the second free throw). But you design a play that draws the defense to your best players, and you give the most forgettable player on the floor a clear path to drive the lane, that's a good play, because either he gets a high percentage shot or gets fouled. (Had the refs called a flagrant, seeing as how Rondo raked him across the face, it would have been an even better play, but I'm glad they didn't overreact on the call.) But you still wound up with an 85% free throw shooter on the line, which is not a bad situation to be in.
One thing that's for sure is that Ben Gordon wasn't going to get a good look. That's why I liked the playcall.
One thing that's for sure is that Ben Gordon wasn't going to get a good look. That's why I liked the playcall.
Yeah, that's bothering me too. There were a couple of plays in the third quarter were they got him the ball low on the left block, where he can turn away from the double team and shoot his turnaround, and of course he did and knocked it down. But instead of pounding it down there to him over and over again in order to get the defense doubling early and create some shots and lanes for the perimeter players, these guys seem intent on forcing the action themselves. Von Wafer is a liability for the Rockets, and if you don't believe me, think back to the way Jannero Pargo singlehandedly lost the deciding game for the Hornets against the Spurs last season.
Rick Adelman has got to have stretches of each quarter, at least once or twice, where he goes to Yao low on the left block four or five times in a row, just like they did in the first quarter of game one, because he's the only guy on that team that can dominate the post. Scola is nice with his back to the basket, too, but he's not going to force a double team. Pound the ball into Yao over and over again, and let him go to work.
And on the other end of the floor, LaMarcus Aldridge could wind up being one of the best post-up players in the NBA in a couple of years. He has an unstoppable turn around jumpshot, a drop-step that can get him past anyone, and he can finish at the rim. Portland is going to be really good.
Rick Adelman has got to have stretches of each quarter, at least once or twice, where he goes to Yao low on the left block four or five times in a row, just like they did in the first quarter of game one, because he's the only guy on that team that can dominate the post. Scola is nice with his back to the basket, too, but he's not going to force a double team. Pound the ball into Yao over and over again, and let him go to work.
And on the other end of the floor, LaMarcus Aldridge could wind up being one of the best post-up players in the NBA in a couple of years. He has an unstoppable turn around jumpshot, a drop-step that can get him past anyone, and he can finish at the rim. Portland is going to be really good.
Maybe in my half drunken stupor I might not have clarified that I have no problem with the play - it was in actuallity phenomenal, which right there means Vinny did not draw it up; I have a problem with the personel utilized. If Brad is in there you tell him to shoot oterwise he's not going to play the remainder of the series. The whole point of having a good shooting big man out there is to SHOOT. It's one thing if it was a misdirection play near the basket.
Another thing - you cannot tell me you wanted Miller at the end of the game knowing he had a chance to go the line. The man could be 100-100 from the stripe and I would not want him. There are players you know want to be there, and players you know don't want to be there. All you had to do was look at Miller's body language - he would rather have been in Guantanamo Bay than at the line. If the play called for driving to the basket, why not Noah? He's much faster, stronger, and I strongly believe he would have finished that play and had a chance for +1.
I'm ticked because the Celtics were down and out. Without their "leader" they would have crumbled in Chicago. This just gives them incentive. I am also taking bets - Celtics will call for Pierce ISO on top of key 10 times next game, he will hit 8 of 10 and Bulls will defend him the same way ever time.
I don't know. I'd rather see the hard drive to the basket, because either you get the bucket or you get the foul. That's the way it worked out, and in reality, we all know that Miller would much rather stand 20 feet away from the bucket and shoot a wide open jumper than go strong to the hole, so I have to give him credit for that. The hard foul put him on the line, and he couldn't convert, but the play was awesome. You essentially ran a flea-flicker, and your receiver didn't catch the ball in the end zone.
Miller isn't the guy I would have wanted on the line, but Gordon wasn't getting to the line because he was bottled up. Same with Rose and Hinrich. Noah isn't a reliable free throw shooter, and I'm not 100% sure he would have made it to the basket without getting called for travelling or an offensive foul or something. I'm not a big Noah fan. But regardless, you put an 85% free throw shooter on the line with a chance to tie the game. Good play.
I woudn't run a double team at him either. Not from there. Maybe down on the block, but not at the top of the key. It's too easy to swing the ball around and get an open three pointer.
Miller isn't the guy I would have wanted on the line, but Gordon wasn't getting to the line because he was bottled up. Same with Rose and Hinrich. Noah isn't a reliable free throw shooter, and I'm not 100% sure he would have made it to the basket without getting called for travelling or an offensive foul or something. I'm not a big Noah fan. But regardless, you put an 85% free throw shooter on the line with a chance to tie the game. Good play.
I woudn't run a double team at him either. Not from there. Maybe down on the block, but not at the top of the key. It's too easy to swing the ball around and get an open three pointer.
Everything you say is correct, but it doesn't change the fact that they just aren't compelling to me and when they play I'd rather watch hockey or something else whereas a team like the Lakers makes a deep playoff run I'll keep watching to root against them long after my team is out. If the Spurs go on a long stretch of missing the playoffs I'll be a happier man.
Anybody but miller, and YES to the drive to the basket. But Miller was hitting jumpshots the entire day, even a swish for a 3. In the case of Brad Miller, I don't care if conventional wisdom says to go to the hoop for the foul, you tell him to shoot. Watch the play. He was so wide open he would have easily had time to adjust, set and shoot. At this stage in his career, I trust him more with shooting than dribbling to the basket. Again... he might be a 85% FT shooter but percentages do not matter at end of games. You have to want to be there at the end. It's one of those intangibles that John Hollinger wouldn't know if it sat in his lap and called him 'mama'
I'm not saying Gordon, Rose or Hinrich... they are too obvious. WHy is Noah unreliable? He was hitting his FTs on the day. He's not a jumpshooter but he's a very good FT shooter. Plus, I would rather have him than Miller. Why? It's Brad freaking miller man. Again... And the whole not trusting Noah in getting to the basket...? That's bush leauge. You're not asking him to do And1 moves. It's one dribble then two steps to the basket. I don't doubt he would be able to do it.
What does Pierce have to do in order to switch up the defense? Perform open heart surgery while turning around and falling away? Maybe do his taxes? Find a cure for the swine flu? THEY RAN IT 3 TIMES IN A ROW AND IT WORKED ALL 3 TIMES. Salmons is not a defensive specialist, and he can't guard Pierce. Pierce would have had a MONSTER game had he not missed a couple of layups and WIDE open jumpshots. Here's a novel idea. Trap over halfcourt. Make Glen Davis or Tony Allen beat you. If Pierce has it top of the key isolated, you can't have a good defense. It has to start before. Vinny was praying, and it wasn't answered this time.
I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm attacking you. I just found the whole situation so badly coached (besides the play, which was genius - I'm just so pissed that the last guy I wanted to be on the line ended up being there)
I'm not saying Gordon, Rose or Hinrich... they are too obvious. WHy is Noah unreliable? He was hitting his FTs on the day. He's not a jumpshooter but he's a very good FT shooter. Plus, I would rather have him than Miller. Why? It's Brad freaking miller man. Again... And the whole not trusting Noah in getting to the basket...? That's bush leauge. You're not asking him to do And1 moves. It's one dribble then two steps to the basket. I don't doubt he would be able to do it.
What does Pierce have to do in order to switch up the defense? Perform open heart surgery while turning around and falling away? Maybe do his taxes? Find a cure for the swine flu? THEY RAN IT 3 TIMES IN A ROW AND IT WORKED ALL 3 TIMES. Salmons is not a defensive specialist, and he can't guard Pierce. Pierce would have had a MONSTER game had he not missed a couple of layups and WIDE open jumpshots. Here's a novel idea. Trap over halfcourt. Make Glen Davis or Tony Allen beat you. If Pierce has it top of the key isolated, you can't have a good defense. It has to start before. Vinny was praying, and it wasn't answered this time.
I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm attacking you. I just found the whole situation so badly coached (besides the play, which was genius - I'm just so pissed that the last guy I wanted to be on the line ended up being there)
Doesn't anyone appreciate Norse mythology any more? Of course I'm talking about Oden:
Oden = Odin = All-Father. You only need to be slightly geeky to figure that out...
Oden = Odin = All-Father. You only need to be slightly geeky to figure that out...
And yes, Oden has been doing well, when he's on the floor. He's having the same trouble as Andrew Bynum though, and can't stay out of foul trouble. Of course, in all fairness, it's hard to expect a rookie to go toes with Yao Ming and not pick up fouls.
I'll concede that, but I'm not upset that he drove to the hole and got the foul. Had he bricked the open jumper, I would have questioned the play, but I like that he took it hard to the rim and got the foul. And again, it could have easily been a flagrant, had it not been 2 seconds left in overtime.
It's not bush league at all. I would rather put the game in Brad Miller's hand than Joakim Noah's. And maybe I'm a nutcase, but that's the way I'd go.
I'd have addressed letting him catch the ball right there, but I wouldn't have ran a double team at him in that situation. Trap over halfcourt makes sense, but like I said, I'm not a Vinny fan, so I'm certainly not trying to defend him.
And if you think it sounds like you're attacking me, then you don't know much about the history of this board. Trust me, this is a tame conversation.
It's not bush league at all. I would rather put the game in Brad Miller's hand than Joakim Noah's. And maybe I'm a nutcase, but that's the way I'd go.
I'd have addressed letting him catch the ball right there, but I wouldn't have ran a double team at him in that situation. Trap over halfcourt makes sense, but like I said, I'm not a Vinny fan, so I'm certainly not trying to defend him.
And if you think it sounds like you're attacking me, then you don't know much about the history of this board. Trust me, this is a tame conversation.
Regardless of Miller's failures at the line, that call was a joke. Rondo is BEHIND Miller and slaps him in the back of the head and its a "play on the ball"
Just an absolute joke of a call, especially when Howard gets a technical for elbowing someone at the end of the Magic game but Rondo gets nothing. Just a stupid call by the refs. Yes calling flagrants at the end of the game sucks, but that was clear as day.
Just an absolute joke of a call, especially when Howard gets a technical for elbowing someone at the end of the Magic game but Rondo gets nothing. Just a stupid call by the refs. Yes calling flagrants at the end of the game sucks, but that was clear as day.
Had it been a big man hitting a guard like that, it would have been called.
I'm really on the fence about that play. At any other point in the game, it probably would have been called, and we'd all be fine with that. But on the last play of the game, do you want the refs making a call that essentially gives the Bulls the game (free throws pending)?
On the other hand, if Rondo is going to make such a dumb mistake at such a critical juncture, then his team has to pay the price. And if it costs them the game, then that's his fault.
I'm torn. But considering the fact that it was pretty clearly a flagrant foul, it's not good that it wasn't called. The NFL is on a crusade to take objectivity out of their officiating (got rid of the minor/major face mask distinction, got rid of the force out rule, etc.), and for good reason. The refs should just make the calls as they happen. Of course, the NBA is more subjective by nature, especially on foul calls. And if the League office reviews the play and hits Rondo with a flagrant, then they'd be admitting that the refs blew it and cost the Bulls the game, so don't expect that to happen.
It sucks for the Bulls, but I understand why the refs didn't call the flagrant.
I'm really on the fence about that play. At any other point in the game, it probably would have been called, and we'd all be fine with that. But on the last play of the game, do you want the refs making a call that essentially gives the Bulls the game (free throws pending)?
On the other hand, if Rondo is going to make such a dumb mistake at such a critical juncture, then his team has to pay the price. And if it costs them the game, then that's his fault.
I'm torn. But considering the fact that it was pretty clearly a flagrant foul, it's not good that it wasn't called. The NFL is on a crusade to take objectivity out of their officiating (got rid of the minor/major face mask distinction, got rid of the force out rule, etc.), and for good reason. The refs should just make the calls as they happen. Of course, the NBA is more subjective by nature, especially on foul calls. And if the League office reviews the play and hits Rondo with a flagrant, then they'd be admitting that the refs blew it and cost the Bulls the game, so don't expect that to happen.
It sucks for the Bulls, but I understand why the refs didn't call the flagrant.
I understand why they didn't call it too, but the rules say it was a flagrant. Boston already blew the play defensively by giving up an open layup. Nobody was going to react in time to defend that play so Rondo did the only thing he could do, grab Miller's face and prevent the easy layup. I don't fault Rondo for making the foul, it was a smart play. But it was a flagrant and the refs should have called it no matter what the Boston fans thought about it. That wouldn't be giving away the game, it would be giving Chicago a chance to win the game if they made a free throw and a basket on an inbounds play with 2 seconds to go. All that would have to happen for Chicago to win that game on that call. As it was they gave Chicago a chance to tie and they missed. But the important thing is to get the call right, no matter how much time is on the clock. Calling the game differently with 2 seconds left in overtime of a playoff game is exactly why everybody thinks the refs in NBA games are manipulating the outcome.
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Nobody wants the game to be decided by refs, but I would rather call that than chalk it up to "let them play it out". Bill Simmons has a column that states the rules change at the last 15 seconds of the game. I agree to an extent. Rondo made a stupid and dangerous play. This was a no brainer, even though I understand the human aspect of the game. The refs are as nervous as the players, probably even more so. Hard to blow the whistle there. I'm all for letting players battle it out, and the hand checks and bumps should be left alone, but something like this where the clear cut intent was to hit the guy across the face is just plain stupid. This is not about the refs controlling the game. THis is about Rondo playing the price for the atrocious defense his team has played.
NBA says play "stands as called"
The league office ruled Wednesday that the referees acted properly when they did not assess a flagrant foul against the Boston guard after he whacked Chicago's Brad Miller in the mouth with two seconds remaining in Game 5 of the Boston Celtics-Chicago Bulls series Tuesday night.
A league spokesman said the play "stands as called," meaning there will be no further penalty against Rondo. League officials had the option of upgrading the foul to a flagrant-category 1 or a flagrant-category 2 -- the latter of which occasionally can come with an accompanying suspension, if NBA officials deem the foul particularly egregious.
What a game – the Bulls vs. Celtics. I was hoping the Bulls would pull out the win and they could have won it at the end of the 4th. There was too much standing around and dribbling – waiting and then forcing up a shot. Even though Ben Gordon was hot, if he or another quick player just drove to the basket that would have been a better situation.
I’m not surprised that Rondo didn’t get a flagrant – last second of the game, you’d rather see the players decide it, than a ref “giving” the game away. But when the play is so blatant and hurtful like that, then I’d assume that they would be fair and give a technical. Plus, Rondo wasn’t even going for the ball. I’m sure they’ll try this tactic again – seeing how there was no extra penalty.
Either way, Brad had a chance where he could have tied the game and sent it into another overtime. Unfortunately he let down a whole lot of people and I’m sure it was really hard on him.
Would someone please shut this guy [KG] up and send them home.
I’m not surprised that Rondo didn’t get a flagrant – last second of the game, you’d rather see the players decide it, than a ref “giving” the game away. But when the play is so blatant and hurtful like that, then I’d assume that they would be fair and give a technical. Plus, Rondo wasn’t even going for the ball. I’m sure they’ll try this tactic again – seeing how there was no extra penalty.
Either way, Brad had a chance where he could have tied the game and sent it into another overtime. Unfortunately he let down a whole lot of people and I’m sure it was really hard on him.
Would someone please shut this guy [KG] up and send them home.