Teague vs. Rubio

[HighTopKicks]

Because Kevin Martin can't do it, Francisco/Nocioni (our $13 million small forward tandem) can't do it, and Jason Thompson and Spencer Hawes can't do it.

Sure, we can trade those guys to open up a spot for a scorer, but there's not a player on the team who can get a bucket when the team needs it. Might as well be the PG.

I'm surprised you didn' add Donte to the list. I've got to give it to you, you seldom is every give up. But, I think your logic is flawed.

If all of our core players are incapable of making a last min. shot dished to them by a pure PG, then it doesn't matter who we draft because we obviously need everything. I'm not going to go through the youth learning together senerio although I could. Let's just say, if our starting point doesn't pass to a wide open player, and takes it to the basket himself, then it won't be long before the other teams figure out that we only have one scorer and double or triple team him. Checkmate

 

[Kingster]

That's great! And look who Rubio would be passing to: Martin, Garcia, Hawes, Thompson, Nocioni.

What are they first and foremost? Scorers! Glad were in agreement.

I see both sides of the argument, but I feel that for OUR personnel to be effective, we desperately need a PURE point guard, a pass first point guard.

The fact that Hawes and Thompson are both excellent passers decreases the need for a pass first point guard. Think Bibby, then double his quickness and jumping ability and you have Teague. Bibby wasn't exactly the greatest passer and penetrator in the league, (certainly not a great defender) and he didn't need to be with two excellent passers in Vlade and Webber.

 

[Gary]

The fact that Hawes and Thompson are both excellent passers decreases the need for a pass first point guard. Think Bibby, then double his quickness and jumping ability and you have Teague. Bibby wasn't exactly the greatest passer and penetrator in the league, (certainly not a great defender) and he didn't need to be with two excellent passers in Vlade and Webber.

Bibby is an excellent passer. He was put into the Princeton offense which requires everyone to be unselfish. Most of the time Bibby brought the ball up and handed off to Webber or Divac and Bibby would run to the corner, or slice inside depending on the screen. But as a play maker Bibby is pretty good.

Teague will control the ball too much. It could turn out like Salmons where Teague has the ball and keeps it while all the other players stand around.

I would rather have the team as a whole be involved in the offense than a singe guy looking to score. It becomes too predictible when you have a scoring PG. He would basically hog the offense and make the rest of the players look bad.

The Kings need to utilize Hawes, and Thompson's passing ability by bringing in a PG that's going to help with the flow of the offense rather than hog the ball looking for his own shot first like a shooting PG. If we bring in a pass first PG and get the others involved then there could be no limit to what the Kings could accomplish..

If we brought in a shoot first PG then you already know what's going to happen.

 

[Aenadin]

we can argue all day that hawes and thompson have good passing skills but the question is would they even equate to the skill of Webber and Divac tandem? if it does then good if we draft teague and even better when we draft rubio cause now we have a three man passing system for martin and another wing to feed off.. and if they dont pan out as good as those two then we have a project point guard in teague.. and not so much an impact on rubio since we KNOW he can play the point.. plus imagine parts of euro supporting the kings! we know rubio has a lot of fanbase in Euro

if the maloofs want some media coverage of their team and better marketability go for rubio im pretty sure rubio kings uni would sell right off... and not only that skill wise he is already pretty good

kind of makes me wonder how the kings would have fared if bodiroga played with the kings alongside peja and divac before

 

[Sarunas]

I'm surprised you didn' add Donte to the list. I've got to give it to you, you seldom is every give up. But, I think your logic is flawed.

If all of our core players are incapable of making a last min. shot dished to them by a pure PG, then it doesn't matter who we draft because we obviously need everything. I'm not going to go through the youth learning together senerio although I could. Let's just say, if our starting point doesn't pass to a wide open player, and takes it to the basket himself, then it won't be long before the other teams figure out that we only have one scorer and double or triple team him. Checkmate

I think we need to re-read what nbrans originally said:

"I'd want someone who can get their own shot off. Every single time and twice on Sundays. Driving and dishing doesn't work in the last 15 seconds unless the guy who is passing is a threat to score."

He isnt saying that all our guys are incapable of making a last min shot, or that teague wouldnt pass the ball to an open guy in the last 15 seconds..he is saying that in crunch time situations, the defense locks down on teams when they have 1 main facilitator, making it much harder for that pg to dish the ball and find someone for a good look at a shot in those last seconds. When that is the case I would want a guy who can create a shot for himself if nothing else opens up. That is much better than a guy that everyone on the floor knows is going to pass it in those last seconds. It also makes the defense much more honest in that situation when the PG is a threat to score or dish it, thus making driving and dishing in the last 15 seconds work well, as nbrans said.

I admit I havent seen rubio a ton, so I'm not gonna bash him, as I havent seen enough to give a fair analysis, but he doesnt have great qucikness, and I havent seen anything that shows me he would be a threat to score consistently if there was nowhere to dish the ball.

 

[Sarunas]

On Teague, I really like him too. I've said this alot, but I wish we could see him play some more PG. He is really quick and athletic and can shoot. Shows signs of being a good passer, too. He is the type of player who could surprise everybody and be another CP3 or he could turn out to be an undersized combo journey guy. I still like him alot, and would have no problem seeing him as a King.

I don't get this Ricky vs Teague. It doesn't have to be either or. I like Rubio a little more, but I love both. You don't have to dump on one to like the other.

In bold...that is the reason you draft him. Lottery picks should be used on guys with star potential. At this point everyone is a risk, so you might as well go for the guy with the highest ceiling.

 

[kingzallday]

So, you don't think his handles and his length can create a shot for him? Come on man. He is 6'4 which is Above average height for a PG. If he can improve his shot on being released alot quicker, I think he will be a threat for the so called last second shot. I also think Rubio is the type of guy who wants to take the last shot, not has to.

 

[Sarunas]

So, you don't think his handles and his length can create a shot for him? Come on man. He is 6'4 which is Above average height for a PG. If he can improve his shot on being released alot quicker, I think he will be a threat for the so called last second shot. I also think Rubio is the type of guy who wants to take the last shot, not has to.

I'm sure his handles and length could create a shot for himself, but aside from that, I dont know what kind of tools he has to create himself a shot. If you've seen him play you've seen he isnt lightning quick to get to the rim, and hes not a great shooter. Id rather take the guy who has quickness and very good shooting right now, who is only 2'' shorter, than a guy who i'd hope would eventually develop those two assets. Like i said everything is a gamble right now, nothing is known for sure.

 

[kingzallday]

He isn't lightning quick, but does he get there? Yes and he finishes because the guy has great length. He is a decent shooter, but it's mostly due to his form. If he tweeks it up some then we have ourselves a great player. I also think Rubio will be a better 1 on 1 defender because of his length, he also interrupts alot of passes with his pesky defense. But, all in all we just won't know until the future who will be the better player.

 

[Aenadin]

He isn't lightning quick, but does he get there? Yes and he finishes because the guy has great length. He is a decent shooter, but it's mostly due to his form. If he tweeks it up some then we have ourselves a great player. I also think Rubio will be a better 1 on 1 defender because of his length, he also interrupts alot of passes with his pesky defense. But, all in all we just won't know until the future who will be the better player.

dont forget he knows how to flop... to him flopping is like an art form....

i dont approve of flopping but its a very cerebral way to play.. use your opposing defense or offense's force against them

 

[HighTopKicks]

I think we need to re-read what nbrans originally said:

"I'd want someone who can get their own shot off. Every single time and twice on Sundays. Driving and dishing doesn't work in the last 15 seconds unless the guy who is passing is a threat to score."

He isnt saying that all our guys are incapable of making a last min shot, or that teague wouldnt pass the ball to an open guy in the last 15 seconds..he is saying that in crunch time situations, the defense locks down on teams when they have 1 main facilitator, making it much harder for that pg to dish the ball and find someone for a good look at a shot in those last seconds. When that is the case I would want a guy who can create a shot for himself if nothing else opens up. That is much better than a guy that everyone on the floor knows is going to pass it in those last seconds. It also makes the defense much more honest in that situation when the PG is a threat to score or dish it, thus making driving and dishing in the last 15 seconds work well, as nbrans said.

I admit I havent seen rubio a ton, so I'm not gonna bash him, as I havent seen enough to give a fair analysis, but he doesnt have great qucikness, and I havent seen anything that shows me he would be a threat to score consistently if there was nowhere to dish the ball.

You want the defense to try and shut down one player, because if he's good enough, it will require a double team and that makes someone open. I'd rather take my chances with the best playmaker finding a way to score then having some combo guard that is good at alot of things, but great at nothing. We've tried it nbrans way may times before with moderate success but no championship. I think it's time to try what's behind door #1.

No one has very said that any player in the draft is a sure SuperStar, so I find it hard to believe that nbrans has anointed any player to be the only one who is capable of taking the ball in his hands and being our finisher all by his self. As far as I know, bb is supposed to be a team game, so if only one player (an untested college player) is capable of scoring in the final minute of a game, maybe the Maloofs should just pack it all in and turn the arena into a daycare center.

 

[nbrans]

You want the defense to try and shut down one player, because if he's good enough, it will require a double team and that makes someone open. I'd rather take my chances with the best playmaker finding a way to score then having some combo guard that is good at alot of things, but great at nothing. We've tried it nbrans way may times before with moderate success but no championship. I think it's time to try what's behind door #1.

No one has very said that any player in the draft is a sure SuperStar, so I find it hard to believe that nbrans has anointed any player to be the only one who is capable of taking the ball in his hands and being our finisher all by his self. As far as I know, bb is supposed to be a team game, so if only one player (an untested college player) is capable of scoring in the final minute of a game, maybe the Maloofs should just pack it all in and turn the arena into a daycare center.

I don't even know what this means.

All I've said is that the Kings lack someone who can get a good shot in crunch time. They have, in fact, lacked this for the last 10 years and it was one of the major Achilles heels of the golden era Kings. The best teams have someone you can throw the ball to and get a shot when the defense tightens up. Not someone who you can throw the ball to so he can dribble around and try and find a shot for someone else when everyone knows he's passing, but rather someone who can get a shot himself or dish off to an open man.

Teague has that ability. No doubt he has plenty of shortcomings that we can all sit around debating. I'm not anointing him anything other than the player I personally want the Kings to draft. You're welcome to your own opinion.

 

[rainmaker]

Teague has that ability. No doubt he has plenty of shortcomings that we can all sit around debating. I'm not anointing him anything other than the player I personally want the Kings to draft. You're welcome to your own opinion.

I don't think Teague has that ability. He can be a good scorer but I don't see him getting clear-outs on offense in the last 5min of a game and being asked to take over.

 

[Sarunas]

I don't think Teague has that ability. He can be a good scorer but I don't see him getting clear-outs on offense in the last 5min of a game and being asked to take over.

I think teague has that ability, I've made this comparison many times, but teague reminds me a ton of tony parker. I'm not guaranteeing he becomes tony parker, but if he does become something like that, I'd trust a guy like tony parker getting me buckets down the stretch if his teammates arent open for looks.

 

[Sarunas]

You want the defense to try and shut down one player, because if he's good enough, it will require a double team and that makes someone open. I'd rather take my chances with the best playmaker finding a way to score then having some combo guard that is good at alot of things, but great at nothing. We've tried it nbrans way may times before with moderate success but no championship. I think it's time to try what's behind door #1.

No one has very said that any player in the draft is a sure SuperStar, so I find it hard to believe that nbrans has anointed any player to be the only one who is capable of taking the ball in his hands and being our finisher all by his self. As far as I know, bb is supposed to be a team game, so if only one player (an untested college player) is capable of scoring in the final minute of a game, maybe the Maloofs should just pack it all in and turn the arena into a daycare center.

I dont think anyone is trying to say teague is the ONLY guy who would be able to score for us in the final minute of a game. But if it comes down to a point where we need a bucket, and the other four guys cant get good looks to score for us in those final minutes, or cant get open, I would prefer a guy who can get us that bucket on his own, instead of having a very unproven scoring option out there with the defense knowing he is going to try and dish it off to someone else. I feel teague has proved himself as more of a guy who can get that bucket, and its pretty clear we dont currently have players who can create for themselves if dishing to their other 4 options are shut off. teague could fill that void for us.

Once again, I havent seen a ton of Rubio, so I'm not gonna say that eventually he cant be a guy that can make his own shots, but from what ive seen of teague, I know he has all the tools and then some to be a very potent offensive player when his team needs him to get buckets. I'm not against rubio, but ive seen a lot of teague and just reallly like what i see potential wise.

 

[rainmaker]

I think teague has that ability, I've made this comparison many times, but teague reminds me a ton of tony parker. I'm not guaranteeing he becomes tony parker, but if he does become something like that, I'd trust a guy like tony parker getting me buckets down the stretch if his teammates arent open for looks.

If you're right that would be great. But Parker had Popovich, who knows who we will have next year. Not to say that Parker wouldn't be great with out Pop, but Pop had a lot to do with his development.

 

[Gary]

I'm sure his handles and length could create a shot for himself, but aside from that, I dont know what kind of tools he has to create himself a shot. If you've seen him play you've seen he isnt lightning quick to get to the rim, and hes not a great shooter. Id rather take the guy who has quickness and very good shooting right now, who is only 2'' shorter, than a guy who i'd hope would eventually develop those two assets. Like i said everything is a gamble right now, nothing is known for sure.

So then you would take Martin out of the game in order to put Teague in? What if the defense locks down on Teague.. Will he be able to get the ball up the court by himself let alone create a shot for himself?

Do you think that under pressure that a pure PG wouldn't be better at finding an open man than a SG? I dunno.. I am still not sold on Teague.. Not as a PG at least.

 

[FakeInjury]

neither please.

 

[Oprostaj]

The whole point about a guy needed to keep the defense honest is true. Then, what is the hope for Teauge. Eddie House? The guy is a LIGHTS OUT shooter. One of the best in the leauge from long range. He runs the point, is quick, not a phenomenal defender. Why is Boston signing Marbury? If you apply any pressure to House, he's done. It doesn't matter if a guy can create a shot for himself if he doesn't have the instincts to iniate the offense. Do you think that the game will get easier for Teauge at the next level. He will all of a sudden be able to develop Magic like skills and turn the scoring ability off and passing on when the situation calls for it? It's much easier for the defense to trap the guy they KNOW wants to shoot, then to defend a PG who can drive and dish to 4 other guys. Again... Teauge can pass, but is not a PG. He has to be able to contribute without dominating the ball, and he has not shown an ability to do that.

He will be a very good player in a good situation. With us, he will be forced to do what is not his strenght. It will expose him, and will give him the bust label. You can't be an ok passer in college, and develop PG instinct and passing like ability at the next level. It doesn't happen. You can become a good passer, like for example Turkoglu... or Ginobili while focusing primarily on scoring, but neither one of those two are called upon to initiate the offense. We would not be utilizing his strenghts if we drafted him. We would have a great And 1 backcourt, but I don't think that's what we're going for.

 

[nbrans]

The whole point about a guy needed to keep the defense honest is true. Then, what is the hope for Teauge. Eddie House?

No. The best case hope is a better-shooting Tony Parker or Devin Harris, or a not-as-good-passing Chris Paul.

 

[Oprostaj]

No. The best case hope is a better-shooting Tony Parker or Devin Harris, or a not-as-good-passing Chris Paul.

Those are truly, truly high expectations. Harris is probably the best young PG out there right now that's not a "star". Parker is a finals MVP for god's sake. That's not best case scenario, that's wishfull thinking. Teauge has not shown nearly enough to uttered in the same breath as those two PGs. If that's the case, I can say the best case for Rubio is a slightly worse shooting Pete Maravich. White, not blazingly quick, amazing handles (nobody can deny this, the ball is glued to his hands). Holy jesus, why aren't we signing him now?

I digress... I haven't eaten yet I'm sorry - work is crazy. I just think that already saying Teauge has the ability to be a better shooting T Parker is crazy. He is not that good of a passer, and has not shown an ability to affect the game in that way. As of right now, I think his ceiling is a more athletic Ben Gordon. Sorry, like you said, everybody has their own opinion.

 

[nbrans]

Those are truly, truly high expectations. Harris is probably the best young PG out there right now that's not a "star". Parker is a finals MVP for god's sake. That's not best case scenario, that's wishfull thinking. Teauge has not shown nearly enough to uttered in the same breath as those two PGs. If that's the case, I can say the best case for Rubio is a slightly worse shooting Pete Maravich. White, not blazingly quick, amazing handles (nobody can deny this, the ball is glued to his hands). Holy jesus, why aren't we signing him now?

I digress... I haven't eaten yet I'm sorry - work is crazy. I just think that already saying Teauge has the ability to be a better shooting T Parker is crazy. He is not that good of a passer, and has not shown an ability to affect the game in that way. As of right now, I think his ceiling is a more athletic Ben Gordon. Sorry, like you said, everybody has their own opinion.

They're not expectations, they're best case scenarios. There's a huge difference.

Teague's college stats as a sophomore:
20.3 ppg, 3.5 rebounds, 3.7 assists, 51% FG, 51% 3P, 83% FT

Harris's college stats as a junior:
19.5 ppg, 4.3 rebounds, 4.4 assists, 46% FG, 37% 3P, 79% FT

 

[hammystyle]

No. The best case hope is a better-shooting Tony Parker or Devin Harris, or a not-as-good-passing Chris Paul.

That is quite a best-case.

I haven't seen enough, is Teague really a true shooter? DX mentioned this and it seemed a little odd to me too in terms of sample size. He's shooting 51% (which is incredible) but is only taking a couple a game. I've heard they run a helter skelter offense, so is it a case of him knocking down quick release pull up three's off a high screen like a Steph Curry would or just making open stand still shots that are kicked out to him? As a comparison Ty Lawson, who I've seen many times and is absolutely not a pure shooter, has made two more 3's at a 49% rate. He just knocks down the open 3's that come, but it'll be different for him in the NBA.

Teague also gets to the line at an incredible rate, so he's an efficient scorer no matter what, but I don't know if its true to sell him as a great shooter. Devin Harris also made 43% on 3's.

 

[Gary]

Quincy Douby's Junior stats...

25.4 ppg, 4.3 rebounds, 3.1 assists, 46.2% FG, 40.1% 3P, 81% FT

 

[nbrans]

Quincy Douby's Junior stats...

25.4 ppg, 4.3 rebounds, 3.1 assists, 46.2% FG, 40.1% 3P, 81% FT

Like I said, Douby was awesome in college. There are no guarantees with the draft, but Teague is already a far superior athlete, dribbler and passer.

Honestly people are making such bizarre comparisons. If you watch the games you won't see someone who looks like Ben Gordon or Quincy Douby. I'm not being delusional here. He may not turn out like everyone hopes, but at least watch the games rather than just reading DraftExpress. They're not any smarter than you and me. They're not even real scouts.

 

[Arby's Roast Beef]

They're not even real scouts.

Huh?

 

[nbrans]

Huh?

Jonathan Givony's background is: dude with computer. I like the site and everything but they're not unfallable basketball geniuses. Their mocks are usually accurate because they're in touch with scouts and do their research, but their player evaluations are extremely spotty. For instance, they recently said that Jrue Holiday can get his shot whenever he wants. Um. Really?

 

[Gary]

I think comparing college stats with a successful NBA players college stats is kind of redundant though. That's why I posted up Douby's..

I have seen Teague, and he reminds me a lot of Ben Gordon, but I wouldn't want Ben Gordon running the point either.

 

[nbrans]

I think comparing college stats with a successful NBA players college stats is kind of redundant though. That's why I posted up Douby's.

I agree that stats are imperfect comparisons, but oprostj was saying that Teague hadn't done anything to justify comparisons to good NBA PGs. I'd say putting up those numbers as a sophomore is doing something. So is dismantling Ty Lawson.

But hey -- you all see what you see.

 

[Oprostaj]

I think comparing college stats with a successful NBA players college stats is kind of redundant though. That's why I posted up Douby's..

I have seen Teague, and he reminds me a lot of Ben Gordon, but I wouldn't want Ben Gordon running the point either.

I know I'm not going crazy then... Yes you do have to watch the games. Then nbrans, why are you posting and comparing stats? Nobody is saying Teauge will not be good. He is just not the PG answer here. He's a scorer. It's a mentality you can't just turn on and off (unless you are one of the greats) and he has not shown he can run a team with his passing ablity. I think that's the major concecuss.