Bobcats want Miller? (ESPN)

[captain bill]

you found a franchise player in this draft?! thats excellent news, who is it?

i considered putting a specific name in there but then i thought better of it.

only point is that maybe petrie works his magic and finds some great player to complete this team. i sure as heck don't know who it is, but i'm sure there's at least one potential all-star/franchise player to pull this team together.

 

[Kingster]

I never wanted Wallace to leave, but I just keep coming back to the fact that the guy is injury prone with a big contract. That scares the hell out of me. You could have a big contract with a guy out indefinitely. Sound familiar? I guess it all depends on what other possible trades are out there for Miller, and also whether the Bobcats would sweeten the deal. Obviously, Petrie wants more, otherwise the deal would have happened by now.

 

[Smills91]

This is why it was so idiotic to sign Garcia to his extension. It was fairly likely that a trade like this would come up during the season. Now we're going to pass on a no-freaking-brainer Brad Miller for Gerald Wallace trade because we have too many wings??

Let's repeat. Brad Miller, 32 year old washed up center, for Gerald Wallace, 26 year old high flying small forward.

Now it's complicated because of Garcia's extension. Dumb dumb dumb.

Couldn't disagree with you more. Garcia IMO is the most 'untouchable' Kings on the roster after Hawes. Why? Because the guy is the hear and soul leader of the roster. Not only that he plays the 1,2, and 3 positions effectively at both ends of the court, plays well as a starter and a reserve all while bring an infectious energy and swagger to the team. He's an integral part of creating a winning atmosphere as well as being an incredibly talented wing player who finds a way to fit in with whatever role he's asked to perform.

 

[wonjaeyou]

Couldn't disagree with you more. Garcia IMO is the most 'untouchable' Kings on the roster after Hawes. Why? Because the guy is the hear and soul leader of the roster. Not only that he plays the 1,2, and 3 positions effectively at both ends of the court, plays well as a starter and a reserve all while bring an infectious energy and swagger to the team. He's an integral part of creating a winning atmosphere as well as being an incredibly talented wing player who finds a way to fit in with whatever role he's asked to perform.

I totally agree with you. Garcia IMO is untouchable(for now, I should say) not because of his skill set, but because of his effort, energy, winning mentality, and cheap salary for his skill set. As Smills91 said, he can play 1,2,3 position and play it well. He might not be the Special player in Kings roster, but I believe that he is the one piece that can help the team to win the Championship. And For now Kings don't have any player who is Special (maybe excpet Hawes, Thompson,and Greene. They might be special who knows) so he is one player that is untouchabe in Kings roster (for now).

 

[nbrans]

Couldn't disagree with you more. Garcia IMO is the most 'untouchable' Kings on the roster after Hawes. Why? Because the guy is the hear and soul leader of the roster. Not only that he plays the 1,2, and 3 positions effectively at both ends of the court, plays well as a starter and a reserve all while bring an infectious energy and swagger to the team. He's an integral part of creating a winning atmosphere as well as being an incredibly talented wing player who finds a way to fit in with whatever role he's asked to perform.

Look, I know you're a Louisville guy and you have a soft spot for Garcia. But this is copmletely insane. More untouchable than Martin? Give me a freaking break.

Garcia is a dime a dozen in terms of production on the floor. The Nets pulled Jarvis Hayes off the scrap heap and got the same level of production. There are guys like Garcia all over the league and on the fringes of the league.

The only thing that separates Garcia from the rest is that he has a good character. But give me someone who can play any day. His attitude hasn't translated to wins, and his mental lapses negate so many of his positive attributes.

Great guy. Untouchable? That's just insane.

 

[Prince_XY]

Look, I know you're a Louisville guy and you have a soft spot for Garcia. But this is copmletely insane. More untouchable than Martin? Give me a freaking break.

Garcia is a dime a dozen in terms of production on the floor. The Nets pulled Jarvis Hayes off the scrap heap and got the same level of production. There are guys like Garcia all over the league and on the fringes of the league.

The only thing that separates Garcia from the rest is that he has a good character. But give me someone who can play any day. His attitude hasn't translated to wins, and his mental lapses negate so many of his positive attributes.

Great guy. Untouchable? That's just insane.

You're so mean.

 

[CaAllDay]

Hawes is prolly the only player who is unattainable for other teams anyone else we shud listen. K mart is he ever coming back its oddly quiet on that front. Why is everyone so down on salmons the only guy actually producing on a game to game basis. Miller for gooden i can c that, not thrilled about it but an expiring deal thats a plus boozer is a player i could see the kings playing for. Maybe Denver will get tired of softy melo, Martin and anyone not named spencer hawes for a player who is described as soft by many with off the court problems sound familiar. We lose to Yao ming okay, we lose to cp3 okay we played and had a shot, but what happened in portland is unacceptable.

 

[TheRaven]

Why is everyone so down on salmons the only guy actually producing on a game to game basis.

I don't think anyone is "down on Salmons."

There is just a realization he is probably our most valuable trading chip right now. There are teams out there in contention for the playoffs right now that could use him as their 2nd/3rd option, and may be willing to give up young talent in order to make it happen.

Yes, Salmons is on a good contract. Yes, he isn't exceptionally old or anything. So do we HAVE to trade him away? Of course not. But if you can get a combination of contracts and young players that you believe is better for the long-term growth of rebuilding organization, you at least consider it. You don't have to agree with that line of thought, but it isn't hard to understand why people may believe that a Salmons trade (along with a Miller trade) makes sense.

Maybe Denver will get tired of softy melo, Martin and anyone not named spencer hawes for a player who is described as soft by many with off the court problems sound familiar.

I wouldn't count on that. Carmello has actually shown a lot of improvement in his overall game so far this season. It seems like his role in the Olympics really sort of jump-started his overall game, because he is playing a lot better defensively and seems to giving a lot more effort.

 

[CaAllDay]

Salmons is the only person out there ballin, lets wait til people get desperate for him b4 we get ahead of ourselves.

The melo thing i was just floating out there, he is a b level player he is not up there with the elite players.

 

[Aenadin]

no ones actually bashing on salmons... its just some people want him to be TRADED while his value is high for a young prospect...

these people are those whose priority is for the future of the team and rebuilding and not on the win now mode.. salmons needs to be on a playoff team simply put

 

[Smills91]

Look, I know you're a Louisville guy and you have a soft spot for Garcia. But this is copmletely insane. More untouchable than Martin? Give me a freaking break.

Garcia is a dime a dozen in terms of production on the floor. The Nets pulled Jarvis Hayes off the scrap heap and got the same level of production. There are guys like Garcia all over the league and on the fringes of the league.

The only thing that separates Garcia from the rest is that he has a good character. But give me someone who can play any day. His attitude hasn't translated to wins, and his mental lapses negate so many of his positive attributes.

Great guy. Untouchable? That's just insane.

Actually I moved to Louisville when Garcia came to Sacramento, so I'm not in the tank for him for that reason. I'm in the tank for him, because guys that can produce at a high level in ANY role are RARE, VERY rare. In fact, I'd say those type of guys are as rare as the SUPERSTARS in the league. I'm not saying he's untouchable, of course he can be dealt, but what I said was after Hawes, he's the next most untouchable on the Kings roster. That I'm sticking to. The only way I'd personally deal Garcia for is if a superstar player is somehow returning in some sort of mixture. (Don't misunderstand, I'm not saying he's netting a superstar by himself - just that unless we get a superstar back, we shouldn't deal him, with other assets).

I'm not sure what mental lapses you're referring to either? As a rookie or 2nd year guy? Because in the games I've seen him play this year, he's been absolutely making phenomenal decisions with the ball. Sure EVERYONE makes a mistake, but he's done a good job of pushing or pulling back at the right times for the vast majority of the time.

 

[Aenadin]

Actually I moved to Louisville when Garcia came to Sacramento, so I'm not in the tank for him for that reason. I'm in the tank for him, because guys that can produce at a high level in ANY role are RARE, VERY rare. In fact, I'd say those type of guys are as rare as the SUPERSTARS in the league. I'm not saying he's untouchable, of course he can be dealt, but what I said was after Hawes, he's the next most untouchable on the Kings roster. That I'm sticking to. The only way I'd personally deal Garcia for is if a superstar player is somehow returning in some sort of mixture. (Don't misunderstand, I'm not saying he's netting a superstar by himself - just that unless we get a superstar back, we shouldn't deal him, with other assets).

I'm not sure what mental lapses you're referring to either? As a rookie or 2nd year guy? Because in the games I've seen him play this year, he's been absolutely making phenomenal decisions with the ball. Sure EVERYONE makes a mistake, but he's done a good job of pushing or pulling back at the right times for the vast majority of the time.

i agree with what you said..

IMO hes more untouchable than martin.....

Scoring is the easiest part of the game...

but having the intangibles like garcia?! thats something you dont want to lose... im pretty sure any team would want garcia right now.. i always wondered how people would react with garcia if he was only 23-22 years old right now...

 

[Sptsjunkie]

no ones actually bashing on salmons... its just some people want him to be TRADED while his value is high for a young prospect...

these people are those whose priority is for the future of the team and rebuilding and not on the win now mode.. salmons needs to be on a playoff team simply put

Adding to this is that Salmons is 29. He can contribute at a high level to a contender right now; however, since we are probably 2 years away from contending for a playoff spot, that means Salmons will be 31-32 by the time we are very competitive. Sending hom to a contender now for young players, picks, and cap flexibility is a win for all sides as we build for the future while letting John compete for a winner while he can still play at a very high level on both sides of the court.

 

[Kingster]

Look, I know you're a Louisville guy and you have a soft spot for Garcia. But this is copmletely insane. More untouchable than Martin? Give me a freaking break.

Garcia is a dime a dozen in terms of production on the floor. The Nets pulled Jarvis Hayes off the scrap heap and got the same level of production. There are guys like Garcia all over the league and on the fringes of the league.

The only thing that separates Garcia from the rest is that he has a good character. But give me someone who can play any day. His attitude hasn't translated to wins, and his mental lapses negate so many of his positive attributes.

Great guy. Untouchable? That's just insane.

There's a middle ground with the value of Garcia. Look at it this way - he's the anti-Artest. If Artest's value was severely depreciated because of his character risks, then Garcia is just the opposite. You have to factor in his leadership into his market value. That means that when you trade him you'd better get MORE than what just his talent would indicate. Leadership in the NBA is a scarce commodity, so it's not something to sniff at.

 

[AriesMar27]

garcia is no better or worse than half of the small forwards in the league... replace him with vujacic, walton, pavlovic, kleiza, barnes, pietrus or whomever and it doesnt change the number of wins at the end of the day...

every fan of every team says the same thing about their back up/fringe starter sf... i like garcia but he isnt untouchable. if the lakers wanted to trade ariza or walton for garcia i would do it. especially for ariza....

 

[bruinfanatic]

trade

Miller/Beno for Wallace/Felton
Salmons for Bargnani and #1 Pick
Let's do it. We get defense we don't have with Wallace. Bargnani gives us another 4-5.
Felton is just here til we get a better point guard.
Next year we pick up a point guard with one of our 3 #1 picks and two more big men to replace Williams and Moore.

PG Felton/Brown/Jackson
SG Martin/Garcia
SF Wallace/Greene
PF Thompson/Bargnani
C Hawes/Bargnani

 

[Sptsjunkie]

garcia is no better or worse than half of the small forwards in the league... replace him with vujacic, walton, pavlovic, kleiza, barnes, pietrus or whomever and it doesnt change the number of wins at the end of the day...

every fan of every team says the same thing about their back up/fringe starter sf... i like garcia but he isnt untouchable. if the lakers wanted to trade ariza or walton for garcia i would do it. especially for ariza....

I certainly wouldn't call Garcia untouchable, but he is heads and tails above the rest of the players you put on that list. He is a good man defender, good team defender, 40%+ 3 point shooter, can create and pass a bit and is fearless and a team leader. He's precisely the kind of bench player who you find on a championship team.

 

[Kings Faithful]

I certainly wouldn't call Garcia untouchable, but he is heads and tails above the rest of the players you put on that list. He is a good man defender, good team defender, 40%+ 3 point shooter, can create and pass a bit and is fearless and a team leader. He's precisely the kind of bench player who you find on a championship team.

A better comparison would have been like a James Posey...

 

[Sptsjunkie]

A better comparison would have been like a James Posey...

I like the Posey comparison. Garcia has not proven to be as clutch as Posey yet, but already is more of a leader.

 

[nbrans]

I like the Posey comparison. Garcia has not proven to be as clutch as Posey yet, but already is more of a leader.

Sorry to derail this thread, but I really didn't realize there are so many irrational Garcia fans around here. Admittedly I haven't seen many games this season, so maybe he has made some vast improvement I'm unaware of. But we're still talking about a guy who leaves three point shooters wide open, makes boneheaded decisions, is an inconsistent shooter, and isn't great at creating his own shot. Maybe all this has been cured in the offseason -- somehow I doubt it.

Like I said earlier -- great guy. But he's a dime a dozen on the floor. He's not a game changer or a difference maker. Maybe he's a leader, but how many wins do we have since he's come back from injury? Not many, by my count. Posey has championships with multiple teams and has been a true difference maker. Garcia hasn't shown anything close to that.

12 points, 42% shooting, 32% from the floor. There are a whoooole lot of guys in the league who could put up those numbers.

 

[Kingster]

Sorry to derail this thread, but I really didn't realize there are so many irrational Garcia fans around here. Admittedly I haven't seen many games this season, so maybe he has made some vast improvement I'm unaware of. But we're still talking about a guy who leaves three point shooters wide open, makes boneheaded decisions, is an inconsistent shooter, and isn't great at creating his own shot. Maybe all this has been cured in the offseason -- somehow I doubt it.

Like I said earlier -- great guy. But he's a dime a dozen on the floor. He's not a game changer or a difference maker. Maybe he's a leader, but how many wins do we have since he's come back from injury? Not many, by my count. Posey has championships with multiple teams and has been a true difference maker. Garcia hasn't shown anything close to that.

12 points, 42% shooting, 32% from the floor. There are a whoooole lot of guys in the league who could put up those numbers.

Garcia is a guy who has made big shots, so he is a difference maker. And he makes plays on the defensive end of the floor as well. I think he's been making good decisions this year with the ball. Right now, I think he's still about 80% coming off the injury. The Posey comparison is silly because you are comparing a relatively young player to an older player. Obviously the older guy has "proven" more because he's had a lot more time to "prove" it, right? That same argument can be made for any veteran player that's played for any NBA championship team, while comparing the player to young player not playing for an NBA championship team. The younger player, no matter how talented, will always have more to "prove" just because he is in fact younger.

 

[Kingster]

Back to Wallace, after sleeping on it a couple of nights I'm even more against it. WALLACE IS INJURY PRONE. Do you want a guy with a long term contract who is injury prone? Miller you can get rid of in a couple of years, no matter what. With Wallace he could set us back for four freaking years. He isn't worth it.

 

[Jerryaki]

Obviously the older guy has "proven" more because he's had a lot more time to "prove" it, right? That same argument can be made for any veteran player that's played for any NBA championship team, while comparing the player to young player not playing for an NBA championship team. The younger player, no matter how talented, will always have more to "prove" just because he is in fact younger.

but by that same argument, you can't call him a difference-maker because he hasn't had the chance yet to make the difference.

when he actually gets to the playoffs and affects the outcome of a series, let's call him a difference-maker then. these little games here and there in the regular season don't really mean a whole lot in the grand scheme of a season.

 

[Sptsjunkie]

Sorry to derail this thread, but I really didn't realize there are so many irrational Garcia fans around here. Admittedly I haven't seen many games this season, so maybe he has made some vast improvement I'm unaware of. But we're still talking about a guy who leaves three point shooters wide open, makes boneheaded decisions, is an inconsistent shooter, and isn't great at creating his own shot. Maybe all this has been cured in the offseason -- somehow I doubt it.

Like I said earlier -- great guy. But he's a dime a dozen on the floor. He's not a game changer or a difference maker. Maybe he's a leader, but how many wins do we have since he's come back from injury? Not many, by my count. Posey has championships with multiple teams and has been a true difference maker. Garcia hasn't shown anything close to that.

12 points, 42% shooting, 32% from the floor. There are a whoooole lot of guys in the league who could put up those numbers.

First, the statistics you post are misleading. Garcia has only played 12 games since coming off an injury. The first two games back he played 15 minutes a game and shot 23%. Last season he averaged 12 points a game and shot 46% from the field and 39% from the three point line, along with a block and a steal a game. This year in 10 games in December (subtracting those first two games) he is averaging 16 points a game shooting 44% from the field and 36% from 3 point range with a block and a steal.

Second, no one said Garcia's career accomplishments were tantamount to Posey's. We simply said they had similar skill sets. I mean just because you say a player has a similar game to Robert Horry, doesn't mean you're predicting they will win 6 rings and hit myriad game winning shots. With that says, look at Posey at age 27 (statitically his best season btw) - he averaged 13.7 points shooting 48% from the floor and 38.5% from the three point line, while getting 1 steal and less than a block a game with a worse A/T ratio than Garcia for the Memphis Grizzlies who were worse than us. And I though Posey was very underrated back then too.

Overall, neither player is a "game changer," but I think their games are similar and they are the type of roll players who help teams win championships (strong D, team players, good shooters) and would take either 10 times out of 10 over Jarvis Hayes, Sasha Pavlovic, Sasha Vujacic or any of the other players some other posters had compared Garcia to.

 

[Sptsjunkie]

but by that same argument, you can't call him a difference-maker because he hasn't had the chance yet to make the difference.

when he actually gets to the playoffs and affects the outcome of a series, let's call him a difference-maker then. these little games here and there in the regular season don't really mean a whole lot in the grand scheme of a season.

True, but I think the point Kinster was trying to make that got a bit lost was more about opportunity. At age 27, Posey was putting up similar numbers to Garcia on a 20 win Grizzlies team. A big difference between the two is that Posey left Vancouver and was fortunate enough to play for two contenders where he showcased his value in big moments. We can't say that Garcia will necessarily come through in the same clutch moments like Posey did. However, their demeanor, playing style, etc. are very similar. Hopefully, at some point, Garcia gets his opportunity to shine on a contender as well. And hopefully the Kings are that contender

 

[Jerryaki]

I mean just because you say a player has a similar game to Robert Horry, doesn't mean you're predicting they will win 6 rings and hit myriad game winning shots.

oh man, it all just came rushing back to me... x 6

True, but I think the point Kinster was trying to make that got a bit lost was more about opportunity.

i got that, but he can't use "opportunity" to downplay one player (posey) and simultaneously bolster another (garcia).

 

[Kingster]

oh man, it all just came rushing back to me... x 6



i got that, but he can't use "opportunity" to downplay one player (posey) and simultaneously bolster another (garcia).

Sure I can. Garcia's made big shots. He's made big defensive plays. We've seen that in his relatively short history as a King. History is an important factor in evaluating a player, whether you are talking about Posey or Garcia, but you obviously can't expect Garcia (younger) to have as much history as Posey (older).

 

[nbrans]

Overall, neither player is a "game changer," but I think their games are similar and they are the type of roll players who help teams win championships (strong D, team players, good shooters) and would take either 10 times out of 10 over Jarvis Hayes, Sasha Pavlovic, Sasha Vujacic or any of the other players some other posters had compared Garcia to.

Don't get me wrong, I'd take him over those guys too. But they're not making $5 million a year like Garcia will next season, and clear through until he's 31, except of course for Posey, who has proven his worth again and again, and Walton/Vujacic, who are wildly overpaid.

Garcia is fine. He's just not a guy you sign up a year ahead of time, messing up the deals Petrie COULD have made for players who are far better, like Wallace. He's not a guy you pay $5 million when there are similar players on rookie contracts now and in the future.

And I may have to hurt someone if I see the words Garcia and "untouchable" in the same sentence again.

 

[Jerryaki]

Sure I can. Garcia's made big shots. He's made big defensive plays. We've seen that in his relatively short history as a King. History is an important factor in evaluating a player, whether you are talking about Posey or Garcia, but you obviously can't expect Garcia (younger) to have as much history as Posey (older).

in the post-season? cuz that's where i feel the game-changer/difference-maker tag is actually warranted. and actually, to me, the guys who are difference-makers, the true untouchables, are the guys who are franchise players; whole defenses are keyed in to stop them, and whole offenses are buillt largely around them. that is not garcia. hitting a game winner or making a stop here and there does not mean you are a "game changer."

and if you're really going to dive into history, wasn't garcia running around like an over-eager chicken for like the first 2.5 years of his career, and only started to settle down part way through last season????

i'm with nbrans on this one, calling garcia untouc...you know, that word, is overestimating his worth.

 

[Sptsjunkie]

Don't get me wrong, I'd take him over those guys too. But they're not making $5 million a year like Garcia will next season, and clear through until he's 31, except of course for Posey, who has proven his worth again and again, and Walton/Vujacic, who are wildly overpaid.

Garcia is fine. He's just not a guy you sign up a year ahead of time, messing up the deals Petrie COULD have made for players who are far better, like Wallace. He's not a guy you pay $5 million when there are similar players on rookie contracts now and in the future.

And I may have to hurt someone if I see the words Garcia and "untouchable" in the same sentence again.

I agree on that part. My original post on this issue, said it was wrong to call Garcia untouchable. First off, there are 0 players on this team that are untouchable. There are maybe 4 players in the league who are untoucable and even 3 of them might still get traded for LeBron. I love Garcia, but would ship him out in a second if the right deal comes along.

With that said. I liked the Garcia contract. Reasonable money for a player who can really help us or who can be good trade bait for another team. It was the Udrih contract that I was not a fan of.