Why is Kevin Martin playing so poorly?

[Bricklayer]

It's making me wonder, and I know some will be upset by me saying this, but for all the talk about trading Artest this season, I starting to wonder if Martin is the guy that we trade in the offseason. I know he has that big five year deal that kicks in starting next year, but he's a good young player and we can probably still get value for him.

Ok, but he is a good young player. So what exactly is the value that we are going to get that is better than a good young player? Another good young player?

If you can move Kevin for a superstar or even a potential superstar, then yes, he should be on the table. But even if he is only the #2 or #3 gun on a good team, well, you have to get back something better than that or moving him doesn't accomplish anything.

 

[pd23]

K marts problem is Ron Artest. Martin plays good when the ball is moving and it stops a lot when it gets to Ron and in the 4th Ron tries to take over the game. Martin is like Rip. He needs to run off screens and get the ball, if the ball stops at Ron all the time, why would Martin want to keep running through all those screens if he does not get rewarded.

 

[LPKingsFan]

This is just like the Peja talk when Webber came back in 2004. Martin = Peja. Unfortunately, Ron = Webber - leadership/charisma + extra controversy.

 

[pd23]

This is just like the Peja talk when Webber came back in 2004. Martin = Peja. Unfortunately, Ron = Webber - leadership/charisma + extra controversy.

Webber before the injury was a great passer and caused teams to double him, but after he came back he was not the same player. Peja had a good run but he was there to spread the floor like he is doing now in NO. When Webber came back, he was not the same and didn't get a lot of double teams, so teams focused more on Peja. This is just the way ron plays. Ron didn't get hurt like Webber and doesn't have to adjust to not being one of the best players in the NBA before the injury and no where close after.

 

[LA King Fan II]

Kevin is an effective offensive player. His body is not strong enough to compete at an elite level. Kobe grabbed a rebound next to him last night that showed the complete physical mismatch. In fact everytime Kobe was near him it really made him look overmatched.

Tough fourth quarter, but predictable. No Bibby so who wants the shots. Ever seen more pump fakes than from Miller, Udrigh and Mikki? Artest 1-1, Martin not strong enough to make his own shot = loss to a team that has multiple options and the physicality to dominate a game defensively when it has to.

Martin isn't bad. The problem is Mitch Kupchak > Geoff Petrie in concocting an effective lineup.

 

[GameBall]

Martin isn't bad. The problem is Mitch Kupchak > Geoff Petrie in concocting an effective lineup.

Mitch Kupchak's job is a little easier. He has his superstar in Kobe, it's a storied franchise in a big market with a lot of celebrity fans.

 

[pd23]

Mitch Kupchak's job is a little easier. He has his superstar in Kobe, it's a storied franchise in a big market with a lot of celebrity fans.

I wouldn't say eisier. Before this year people were calling for Mitch's head, it is because he is in a big market and with a storied franchise, but he has a lot more pressure. Kobe even called him out and wanted to be traded. Mitch stuck to his guns and Kept Bynum and didn't trade Kobe. Petrie's job is a bit eaiser because fans don't really bash him and players don't call him out.

 

[Bricklayer]

I wouldn't say eisier. Before this year people were calling for Mitch's head, it is because he is in a big market and with a storied franchise, but he has a lot more pressure. Kobe even called him out and wanted to be traded. Mitch stuck to his guns and Kept Bynum and didn't trade Kobe. Petrie's job is a bit eaiser because fans don't really bash him and players don't call him out.

Mitch's job is easier in a basketball sense because he inherited the absolute hardest piece in basketball to acquire -- the superstar player. Mitch's job has been to surround that player with support players. But he already ahd his centerpiece. That is 1000x easier than trying to find a way to get your own Kobe.

And as an aside, Geoff's criticism free run is considerably over at this point.

 

[pd23]

Mitch's job is easier in a basketball sense because he inherited the absolute hardest piece in basketball to acquire -- the superstar player. Mitch's job has been to surround that player with support players. But he already ahd his centerpiece. That is 1000x easier than trying to find a way to get your own Kobe.

And as an aside, Geoff's criticism free run is considerably over at this point.

True, but if he were to come out and say the Lakers want to get under the Cap in 2 years like Geoff said this year, Mitch would be getting killed and Geoff is getting a free pass because the Fans are ok with waiting.

 

[tyrant]

so petrie shouldve built a better team around mini-mart? doesnt make sense. is that supposed to hide his terrible defense and his adolescent body

 

[Glenn]

so petrie shouldve built a better team around mini-mart? doesnt make sense. is that supposed to hide his terrible defense and his adolescent body

I wouldn't put it the way you just wrote. I think Petrie should construct a team that takes into account the skills and deficits of the parts already in place. Like, should we draft a 7' center with mediocre hops, good moves, excellent range, and minimal strength?

 

[Bricklayer]

so petrie shouldve built a better team around mini-mart? doesnt make sense. is that supposed to hide his terrible defense and his adolescent body

Enough with the potshots about Kevin.

He's skinny, but that's a come a long way since he entered the league, and his body means very little about his game.

 

[tyrant]

building around mini mart isnt the answer. this team has already gone through cuttinos, thomas', songaila's, bonzis, etc. the changes that need to be made should start with the coach, then bring in someone that can anchor that horrible defense.

 

[tyrant]

Enough with the potshots about Kevin.

He's skinny, but that's a come a long way since he entered the league, and his body means very little about his game.

ok my apologies about the last part of my statement.

 

[SacKings7]

building around mini mart isnt the answer. this team has already gone through cuttinos, thomas', songaila's, bonzis, etc. the changes that need to be made should start with the coach, then bring in someone that can anchor that horrible defense.

3 of those players were brought in before KMart was even getting PT, back when Webber/Peja were the stars of this team. And Bonzi's first year was also KMart's breakout year. Now with Bibby gone and Artest likely gone after the season, we should at least try building around KMart. With Artest gone, KMart's FGA should go up, which is a good thing considering his FG%

 

[VF21]

I think a team can be built that will be better suited for Martin, but I don't think anyone is saying he'll be the cornerstone of the team of the future. That's been one of the best parts of Petrie-built teams. When they gell, it's because the players compement each other and work cohesively. With the right team around him, Martin can and I hope will be a very productive player.

 

[tyrant]

youre right about the 1st part. i forgot martin wasnt getting pt at first. but im just saying. so many players have come and gone. building around the guy wearing jordans number isnt a good idea. you've seen him play during crunch time. is that the guy you want leading your team and creating last seconds shots to win games? offense is more than just standing and shooting. if he had half the skill kobe had i would say yes. but he doesnt. if he cant get by you off the dribble he's a cooked turkey. there were so many ways jordan or bird could score. ridiculous. its like you're aiming to be this decent team thatll get into the playoffs and make a little bit of noise at most. i want the gold!!!! and you have to have the best group of players to get it.

 

[SacKings7]

I think we should give him a year to see if he can be the guy. I agree about him standing around in the corner during crunch time, he should be more vocal and demand the ball. But just because Martin isn't a superstar doesn't mean he can't be a GREAT 2nd option on a good team. I definitely want to see him play for the Kings for a long time

 

[=LarryLegend=]

He is a young stud, lets see you play the last 3 years with 3 coaches! people on kingfans.com are quick to turn on someone! anybody remember a young kobe? his playoff airballs, not very good defense. I am not at all comparing the two. but kevin has got alot better since he got drafted. he's a great scorer, let him gell with Beno and Reggie. I think he can be a allstar in this league. hes quick enough, smart enough, skilled enough. i will admit he does need to be the 55mil man. but he is not making that money until next year. all most all (Scorers) take a while to develope their defense. remember flatout teams only need to plan to defend kevin. lets get him some legit help. a big man! a true big man! a power (freaking) forward. kevin is still 1-2 years away from entering into his prime.

 

[Bricklayer]

With Artest gone, KMart's FGA should go up, which is a good thing considering his FG%

Kevin shoot .445.

Ron shoots .451.


Just saying. People have been living on this Kevin shoots 50% myth now for a year and a half, and he did it for about 3 months and largely because teams did not respect him and were barely bothering to guard him. Generally the more shots you take, the lower your percentage goes as most players, and thise really applies to a smart offensive player like Kevin, get all their easy shots first -- the leak outs, open threes, backdoor cuts etc., and then the extra shots are progressively more difficult and challenged. You take away the other offensive weapons aroudn them and the % falls further as defenses key more and more of their defense to stopping them. And of course in the process if you lose a 20ppg scorer and replace them with a 10ppg scorer, you'd better be getting 10 more ppg out of the guy (Kevin) you made that move to benefit.

 

[SacKings7]

Kevin shoot .445.

Ron shoots .451.

Did NOT realize that. Even still, Artest seems to force shots during crunchtime when he obviously should pass. KMart doesn't seem to force a lot of shots from what I've seen.

 

[Superman]

Did NOT realize that. Even still, Artest seems to force shots during crunchtime when he obviously should pass. KMart doesn't seem to force a lot of shots from what I've seen.

Not that I would like to see Kevin forcing shots, but I would rather see him forcing the action then standing around, half-heartedly running around picks, not going strong to the hole, etc. Kevin started this season off getting to the free throw line 10 times a game, which was a sign that he was willing to be a bit more aggressive offensively. He shot 19 or something like that a couple of nights ago, but that aggression was not there last night in the fourth quarter against the Lakers.

Artest was taking poor shots, stagnating the offense, and getting beat on the other end and putting Kobe on the foul line. Maybe he can't do too much about Kobe, but the shots he was taking and all the dribbling completely killed the offense. He did get Beno the open three, but that was partially due to Derek Fisher not believing that Artest would pass out of the double team to the open man.

 

[Warhawk]

And he may be out tonight

From Amick - he got injured in the 3Q of last night's game:

http://kingsfans.com/forums/showthread.php?p=525481#post525481

"He walked off the floor holding his right wrist and hand, which may be sore enough for him to miss a game for the first time since Jan. 10."

 

[Jkbiker]

Well gee, I guess that might have something to do with Kevin having a poor 4th Qtr
in the Laker game if he injured his wrist in the 3rd qtr. May be why he didnt get a lot of passes to him and artest was running the offense. Hmmmmmmm

 

[jcassio]

You know, if Kevin was hurt so bad that he couldn't help his team in the 4th quarter, then why the h doesn't he sit, or go to the locker room for treatment, and let someone else try to help the team? I don't buy the argument that some bozo will make that Kevin must have tried his best to play thru the injury, but by then the game was over. Urgh! It's part of maturing as a person and a player - that he needs to learn to put his team before his ego - especially in the 4th quarter. Same could be said for Ron-Ron, of course, except that I'm pretty sure Ron can play thru pain that would hospitalize most of us. In fact, I'd wager that Ron could have two broken wrists and he'd still think he should be the first option.

 

[VF21]

No one has made that leap yet, jcassio. I think you're anticipating an argument that might not even be mentioned. But if it is, I cannot understand the "he needs to learn to put his team before his ego" comment. Martin's wrist may have been an unlying factor in why he didn't perform with the same zeal as earlier in the game or it may not. But please remember that Kevin was seen by Pete Youngman, who reported to Reggie. If Reggie felt Martin was still able to play and called his number, it wasn't Kevin who arbitrarily put himself in over the objections of others.

Again, I think you're anticipating an argument that quite possibly won't ever surface. I'm honestly more interested in seeing if he'll play tonight.

 

[jcassio]

No one has made that leap yet, jcassio. I think you're anticipating an argument that might not even be mentioned. But if it is, I cannot understand the "he needs to learn to put his team before his ego" comment. Martin's wrist may have been an unlying factor in why he didn't perform with the same zeal as earlier in the game or it may not. But please remember that Kevin was seen by Pete Youngman, who reported to Reggie. If Reggie felt Martin was still able to play and called his number, it wasn't Kevin who arbitrarily put himself in over the objections of others.

You're absolutely right... I'm anticipating the argument before it even happens! Sorry bout that.

I like Kevin and don't want to see him traded. He's developed nicely in his few years here, and there's no reason to think he won't continue to improve. So I guess I'm just reacting to what I see as part of the maturation process for big-money NBA players, in keeping their ego in check and making it about the team. I'm hoping that Kevin does not develop an ego that ends up being a limitation to his growth.

 

[VF21]

This is not a kid with ego problems, believe me. Yes, he's now living the dream but he's not letting it become more important than the strong family values he was raised with. He may go through the normal maturation process in the NBA but I would compare him to someone like Corliss - a good guy - and not an ego with legs.

 

[swisshh]

My only concern with Martin is the uglier atmosphere of the last two years getting to him mentally. Actually, I am also concerned about him thinking he is a primetime player when he is really just a good #2 on a playoff team. Since Bibby nor Artest are a true #1 guy, Martin has been struggling to fill the #1 spot while fighting other secondary players for it. It is like the easy baskets Gasol gets now because he no longer has to be the #1 guy.

I think it would help the team if Petrie stopped acquiring players of the type we already have too much of. Martin, Salmons, Cisco and Douby all do rather similar things. Martin, Salmons, Cisco, Artest and Douby all steal playing time from each other and you can't have all play at once. We finally draft something different last year and it is Brad Miller redux, another nonathletic big man to go with the rest of our nonathletic big men. At least we stopped with the undersized tweener forwards--oh wait, Sheldon Williams. Beno is the only move that addressed a need and made sense in the last few years.

 

[VF21]

My only concern with Martin is the uglier atmosphere of the last two years getting to him mentally. Actually, I am also concerned about him thinking he is a primetime player when he is really just a good #2 on a playoff team. Since Bibby nor Artest are a true #1 guy, Martin has been struggling to fill the #1 spot while fighting other secondary players for it. It is like the easy baskets Gasol gets now because he no longer has to be the #1 guy.

I think it would help the team if Petrie stopped acquiring players of the type we already have too much of. Martin, Salmons, Cisco and Douby all do rather similar things. Martin, Salmons, Cisco, Artest and Douby all steal playing time from each other and you can't have all play at once. We finally draft something different last year and it is Brad Miller redux, another nonathletic big man to go with the rest of our nonathletic big men. At least we stopped with the undersized tweener forwards--oh wait, Sheldon Williams. Beno is the only move that addressed a need and made sense in the last few years.

Did you watch the game? I think Spencer Hawes is going to be just fine.