[PHX/SAS] -- series discussion (merged)

[Superman]

The momentum after the 2nd game in San Antonio.
The Suns played 2 games at home with full squad and 3 away.
Anyway, it's a moot point now, Spurs* advance, but hopefully Suns will get another chance next year.

And went 2-3 in those five games. Had they taken care of home in Games 1 and 2, then they would have been up 3-1 going into Game 5, would have had a big chance to steal Game 6 with Stoudemire and Diaw coming back, and would have still had Game 7 at home.

They lost this series because they aren't composed under pressure (for example, they melted down in the 4th quarter of Game 5, after leading all the way), and they don't play defense. They have serious flaws for a team trying to win a championship, especially when you have to beat a team like San Antonio in order to get there.

 

[sloter]

And went 2-3 in those five games. Had they taken care of home in Games 1 and 2, then they would have been up 3-1 going into Game 5, would have had a big chance to steal Game 6 with Stoudemire and Diaw coming back, and would have still had Game 7 at home.

Do you really need to be explained the meaning of home court advantage?
The Suns had series in their hands before the suspensions were announced.

Your mental pressure argument makes absolutely no sense as the Suns have made nice comebacks in games 1 and 4 (and almost in game 6) and without their #2 and #4 guy they didn't have the talent to compete for all 48 minutes in pivotal game 5. The Suns were lucky to have been as close as they were in that game, Spurs* had many chances to take the game over before throughout the game, they were just missing shots they normally make.

 

[Superman]

Do you really need to be explained the meaning of home court advantage?
The Suns had series in their hands before the suspensions were announced.
They simply did not have enough without their #2 and #4 in pivotal game 5 and that was the key point in the series.

Yes, please. Please, explain to me the meaning of home court advantage. Break it down to me in your revisionist terms, make it easy for me to understand how the Suns had the series in their hands, when the series was TIED after four games.

Because I was under the impression that if you TAKE CARE OF HOME in Games 1 and 2, all you have to do is win one game on the road, and you can end the series in five games. If you fail to win Game 5 at home, you still have a chance to steal one in Game 6, and you still have Game 7 at home.

The Suns did NOT take care of home, and thus didn't have home court advantage after Game 1. Their problems started long before they lost Stoudemire and Diaw for Game 5, and even after that, if they truly were the superior team, they would have had two chances to prove it if they could simply feed off of getting two important players back in Game 6.

We all know how that worked out, of course. And to say that the Suns had the series in their hands going into Game 5 is ridiculous. The Spurs have shown their ability to win playoff games on the road for years now, and that's why they were able to steal Game 1 in Phoenix.

The only reasons Game 5 was the key point in the series are a), the Suns don't know how to close games out, whether at home or on the road, and, b) they can't play efficient defense to counter their offensive dry spells that are inevitable in the playoffs.

And, as I have already mentioned, they still had a chance to steal Game 6, which they should have since they were getting two key players back. If they really were in control of the series, only being tied 2-2 (that's laughable, at best), then they should have been able to win a game on the road, having the personnel advantage with one of San Antonio's big men - and their most clutch player - still suspended for a hip check foul at the end of a playoff game.

The truth is that they weren't ever in control of the series, and neither was San Antonio. They traded games for the first four games of the series, and then, when they should have won Game 5, they choked it away down the stretch. That's why they lost. And that's why they won't win a championship as long as they have to get past more well-rounded teams like San Antonio to do so.

 

[sloter]

Here it is. Just for you. Plain and simple logic.

In a 3 game series, the team which plays two games at home has an advantage. The team who won the last game has a psychological advantage going into the next game, especially if the last victory was on the road and they are coming back home. Hope you can fill in the rest on your own.

 

[Superman]

Do you really need to be explained the meaning of home court advantage?
The Suns had series in their hands before the suspensions were announced.

Your mental pressure argument makes absolutely no sense as the Suns have made nice comebacks in games 1 and 4 (and almost in game 6) and without their #2 and #4 guy they didn't have the talent to compete for all 48 minutes in pivotal game 5. The Suns were lucky to have been as close as they were in that game, Spurs* had many chances to take the game over before throughout the game, they were just missing shots they normally make.

They lost Game 1, so they didn't make a comeback. And, if I remember correctly, that was a close game throughout.

And when you lead by as many as 16 in the first half, at home, against a team that only scored 30 points in two quarters, you should at least be able to win that game, shorthanded or not. But the reality is that they choked the game away down the stretch, and their inability to get key stops in big games - at home or on the road - cost them the game. Simple as that. They had several chances to put the game away, but it came down to needing one stop on a big possession, and they couldn't get it.

So you have a nice time trying to rewrite history. While you're at it, work on the WCF from 2002. Maybe the Kings would have a championship.

 

[Superman]

Here it is. Just for you. Plain and simple logic.

In a 3 game series, the team which plays two games at home has an advantage. The team who won the last game has a psychological advantage going into the next game, especially if the last victory was on the road and they are coming back home. Hope you can fill in the rest on your own.

So the Suns do fine with mental pressure, but they couldn't win Game 6 because San Antonio had the "psychological advantage"?

Thanks. Now I'm certain. You don't know what the hell you're talking about.

 

[sloter]

The truth is that they weren't ever in control of the series, and neither was San Antonio. They traded games for the first four games of the series, and then, when they should have won Game 5, they choked it away down the stretch. That's why they lost. And that's why they won't win a championship as long as they have to get past more well-rounded teams like San Antonio to do so.

Again, your comment about this game is as if you didn't watch the game. The Spurs were continuously cutting the lead since the 1st quarter and it was a surprise that the Suns were able to hold on as long as they did. They rode high energy in the beginning to get the big lead, but it was only a matter of time before the Spurs were going to break open (similar to what they did in 3rd quarter of game 6). That didn't happen in game 5 because they missed easy shots the whole game, and not because the Suns played an amazing game and then all the sudden froze in the last quarter. They just didn't have enough talent in that game.

 

[sloter]

So the Suns do fine with mental pressure, but they couldn't win Game 6 because San Antonio had the "psychological advantage"?

Thanks. Now I'm certain. You don't know what the hell you're talking about.

No, but because the Spurs had home court advantage.
And if you count that as psychologically weak, then I guess just about every team in the league has that problem.

 

[Superman]

Again, your comment about this game is as if you didn't watch the game. The Spurs were continuously cutting the lead since the 1st quarter and it was a surprise that the Suns were able to hold on as long as they did. They rode high energy in the beginning to get the big lead, but it was only a matter of time before the Spurs were going to break open (similar to what they did in 3rd quarter of game 6). That didn't happen in game 5 because they missed easy shots the whole game, and not because the Suns played an amazing game and then all the sudden froze in the last quarter. They just didn't have enough talent in that game.

Oh I watched the game alright.

I watched Shawn Marion score 20 and grab 11 rebounds in the first half, and then disappear in the second half. Leandro Barbosa played like a 3rd grader. Kurt Thomas and Steve Nash are the only ones who played with any heart, and Thomas was outmatched and Nash can't do it alone. Had they played half as good after the break as they did before it, they would have defied the odds and won Game 5.

Instead, they gave it away to a team with superior fortitude that was able to bounce back from a 33 point first half and score 55 points in the second to win the game in a raucous arena that booed them everytime they touched the ball. That's mental toughness, and that's what the Suns lacked in the second half of Game 5 (after showing tremendous heart in the first half, I might add) and in Game 6, which I had penciled them in as winning, since they were getting an All-Star and former MIP back.

Nash questioned their heart and toughness himself after Game 1, and it was a fair criticism. They don't have enough to be champions.

 

[sloter]

Oh I watched the game alright.

I watched Shawn Marion score 20 and grab 11 rebounds in the first half, and then disappear in the second half. Leandro Barbosa played like a 3rd grader. Kurt Thomas and Steve Nash are the only ones who played with any heart, and Thomas was outmatched and Nash can't do it alone. Had they played half as good after the break as they did before it, they would have defied the odds and won Game 5.

Exactly my point, its easier to stop a team which has 3 dangerous players instead of 5.

 

[Superman]

No, but because the Spurs had home court advantage.
And if you count that as psychologically weak, then I guess just about every team in the league has that problem.

The Suns had chances to win the series, but couldn't pull it off. Even if Game 5, seriously under-manned, they got outplayed down the stretch and gave the game away in the fourth quarter. And, watching the final possessions of that game, they were unable to get stops down the stretch, which has been the case for them late in games for three years now, especially in the playoffs.

That's what's stood between them and a championship for three years now. That's what almost cost them their first round matchup against the Lakers last year, and until they give some attention to how pathetic their defense is, especially late in games, they won't win a title. Plain and simple.

 

[Superman]

Exactly my point, its easier to stop a team which has 3 dangerous players instead of 5.

But they did plenty of stopping in Games 1, 3 and 6.

 

[sloter]

...until they give some attention to how pathetic their defense is, especially late in games, they won't win a title. Plain and simple.

Individually, Suns have 3 of the best defenders in the league at their positions in Thomas, Marion and Bell and overall they are probably a top 10 in the league defensively. Last year they did not have Thomas OR Amare against the Lakers, so it was expected that they would have problems stopping anyone on the inside.

 

[VF21]

The Suns had chances to win the series, but couldn't pull it off. Even if Game 5, seriously under-manned, they got outplayed down the stretch and gave the game away in the fourth quarter. And, watching the final possessions of that game, they were unable to get stops down the stretch, which has been the case for them late in games for three years now, especially in the playoffs.

That's what's stood between them and a championship for three years now. That's what almost cost them their first round matchup against the Lakers last year, and until they give some attention to how pathetic their defense is, especially late in games, they won't win a title. Plain and simple.

Right on, Supes.

Watching the Suns is a lot of fun, and I really hoped they'd make it to the NBA Finals to see the contrast between their style and the Pistons, whom I of course am also rooting for, but they're fatally flawed. And I think you've done an excellent job of identifying that fatal weakness, just as the Spurs did an excellent job of exploiting it.

 

[Superman]

Individually, Suns have 3 of the best defenders in the league at their positions in Thomas, Marion and Bell and overall they are probably a top 10 in the league defensively. Last year they did not have Thomas OR Amare against the Lakers, so it was expected that they would have problems stopping anyone on the inside.

Huh?

You're outdoing yourself here.

Opponents ppg: 102.9, 8th most in the NBA
Opponents overall FG%: .457, 14th overall in the NBA
Opponents 3p FG%: .363, 22nd overall in the NBA
Rebounding differential: -2.34, 24th in the NBA
50 100 point games given up, tied for 3rd in the NBA

How are they a top 10 defensive team? They may have good individual defenders in Bell and Marion (you'll have to excuse me if I don't consider Kurt Thomas to be one of the best defensive forwards in the NBA), but their team defense is putrid. The only thing they do a good job of is forcing turnovers, which is probably a more direct result of their potent offense than of their good defense.

Excuse me while I laugh that off.

 

[Kstat]

The Suns are a terrible defensive team. Game 6 displayed that in spades.

I lost track of how many wide open looks the Spurs got.

 

[sloter]

Huh?

You're outdoing yourself here.

Opponents ppg: 102.9, 8th most in the NBA
Opponents overall FG%: .457, 14th overall in the NBA
Opponents 3p FG%: .363, 22nd overall in the NBA
Rebounding differential: -2.34, 24th in the NBA
50 100 point games given up, tied for 3rd in the NBA

How are they a top 10 defensive team? They may have good individual defenders in Bell and Marion (you'll have to excuse me if I don't consider Kurt Thomas to be one of the best defensive forwards in the NBA), but their team defense is putrid. The only thing they do a good job of is forcing turnovers, which is probably a more direct result of their potent offense than of their good defense.

Excuse me while I laugh that off.

You can completely disregard the total defensive numbers as the number of possessions that they play is by far the highest in the league. It's almost a matter of general education not to take those into account when you consider the pace that Suns force. The rest of their numbers may be skewed because they don't commit very many fouls in order to get back on the offense quickly and the fact that Amare did not play at full form until midway in the season.

Suns being in top 10 is an exaggeration, but so is calling their defense pathetic.

 

[Kstat]

It's pathetic against any team that can move the ball and score with balance.

I don't need stats to tell me that. Every time the Suns play a balanced team they get shredded.

 

[Superman]

You can completely disregard the total defensive numbers as the number of possessions that they play is by far the highest in the league. It's almost a matter of general education not to take those into account when you consider the pace that Suns force. The rest of their numbers may be skewed because they don't commit very many fouls in order to get back on the offense quickly and the fact that Amare did not play at full form until midway in the season.

Suns being in top 10 is an exaggeration, but so is calling their defense pathetic.

I guess you didn't look at the numbers I posted. Defensive FG% is the absolute best way to guage a defense's effectiveness, and the Suns are in the bottom of all playoff teams in that category. They get outrebounded routinely, which is why I posted the rebounded differential, where they are near the bottom of the entire League. They are also near the bottom of the League in 3p FG% and adjusted FG%.

I didn't bother to look up points per possession, but my assumption is that they're in the lower third of the League in that category as well.

They're arguably the worst defensive team of the 16 that made the playoffs, with nods to the Lakers and Nuggets in that regard. The Suns are pathetic on defensively, especially against a team with a low post threat, and that weakness has been clearly defined for the past three seasons in the playoffs. That is NOT an exaggeration.

Neither was you calling them a top ten defense. It was just incorrect.

 

[Arkitect]

The Suns were at full strength for 5 of the 6 games they played and still managed to lose 4 of them, so I don't think you can use the suspensions as an excuse. The Spurs are the better team. Phoenix can't defend the post game and they can't defend the three point line. The Spurs are more experienced, more balanced, and play better defense than the Suns. Is it really that surprising that the Suns got beat? As has been true for the history of the NBA, teams that play good defense win championships. Until the Suns play better team D, they aren't going to win it all.

 

[Gargamel]

Is that bitterness in your voice that I hear? Why on Earth would that be?

Me bitter? The team I wanted to win did.

 

[BMiller52]

Phoenix needs to make a trade for KG. He'd give them the size they need. He could fit in there because he has a great mid range J, can pass extremely well, and he's really athletic. He'd give them another option that won't wilt like Marion does. Nash and Amare played well but the Spurs wouldn't leave Bell open and everyone else played like garbage. He'd be able to get them 4-5 more buckets with his post game alone. The high/low combo between Amare and KG would be amazing. He's one of the only players who can play good defense against Duncan and challenge his shot because he has the ultimate combo of athleticism, height, strength, and length. All Kurt Thomas had was strength. Not enough to beat SA. Phoenix also needs his shotblocking. A package of Marion to a 3rd team like boston(who then sends MN Ratliff's 10 million dollar expiring contract and some young players like Green), ATL's pick(probably 4th or 5th), and Barbosa would get it done. Then they could sign Steve Blake with the MLE to be their new back up PG and they could trade Diaw to wherever.

Even though I think the Suns had some unfair stuff happen to them through out the series, when it really counted in an elimination game the Spurs played better. Even though I hate them I got to give props to them for that. The reffing was decent in game 6, they just played better. With that said, GO PISTONS when they eventually meet in the finals.

 

[4cwebb]

How are they a top 10 defensive team? They may have good individual defenders in Bell and Marion (you'll have to excuse me if I don't consider Kurt Thomas to be one of the best defensive forwards in the NBA), but their team defense is putrid. The only thing they do a good job of is forcing turnovers, which is probably a more direct result of their potent offense than of their good defense.

Agreed. And in Game 6, neither Bell nor Marion were able to shut down their primary assignments --- Ginobli went for 33 and Parker (who Marion was trying to guard) went for 30.

I think the Spurs really just have a mental edge over the Suns as a result of the WCF pasting they put on the Suns a couple of years ago. PHX knows that they are up against it when they face the Spurs, and they play like it, from the head coach on down.

 

[vytzka]

Me bitter? The team I wanted to win did.

In the first round?

Accept my apologies if I'm wrong but your bashing the Suns sounded to me a bit more like bitter ranting than argumented criticism, so just wanted to check if your opinion would have been the same if not for their (last two even) first round series.

 

[Gargamel]

In the first round?

Accept my apologies if I'm wrong but your bashing the Suns sounded to me a bit more like bitter ranting than argumented criticism, so just wanted to check if your opinion would have been the same if not for their (last two even) first round series.

I can't be all that biased if Superman's opinions of them aren't much different than mine.

 

[vytzka]

I can't be all that biased if Superman's opinions of them aren't much different than mine.

Well, he phrased all that somewhat differently but yeah, let's just say I've been reading too much into it

 

[Gargamel]

Well, he phrased all that somewhat differently but yeah, let's just say I've been reading too much into it

I don't like Phx, don't get me wrong, but I can't truly be bitter until LA is even a close match w/ them. It's hard to be bitter when a series is a foregone conclusion before Gm1. The only thing I can be bitter about was LA's freefall that caused them to face Phx in the first place. The last time I've had the luxury of being bitter was the 2004 Finals and a -60 FTA disparity.

 

[Superman]

I don't like Phx, don't get me wrong, but I can't truly be bitter until LA is even a close match w/ them. It's hard to be bitter when a series is a foregone conclusion before Gm1. The only thing I can be bitter about was LA's freefall that caused them to face Phx in the first place. The last time I've had the luxury of being bitter was the 2004 Finals and a -60 FTA disparity.

The Pistons were more physical, but they were more aggressive. The Lakers settled for jumpers all series long.

Get over it, Gargy.



(All said in a spirit of fun, of course.)