Barry Bonds thread (merged)

[G_M]

However, the evidence against him cheating with steroids is all circumstantial and I find the abuse he takes in the media and in the public to be, well - abusive.

That's where you are wrong. Bonds admitted taking steroids he just said that he didn't know they were steroids... This is all laughable because Greg Anderson who Bonds hired in the summer of 98 was a known a steroid user and dealer. Bonds took Winstrol and human growth hormone...

Besides doesn't every 34 year old male pack on 15lbs of muscle in a 100 days????

 

[BawLa]

Growing head and feet size is a tell tale sign of HGH and riod (Most use a combo of the 2)use. The guys feet and neck have almost doubled in size. Explain that! Magic? He just works out 24/7?

You completely failed to get the point. My point was that there are a lot of guys that grew dramatically since they became professionals. Does that mean all of them took roids? The point of bringing up Shaq is to draw a direct connection to someone ouside of MLB that was small when he entered the league and got rediculously huge afterword. But no one ever questions if Shaq took roids. Not Shaq. He isn't the type of guy to do that.

Similiarly if someone like Shaq didn't take roids, and got rediculously huge over a short period of time, is it out of the realm of possibility that it could happen to someone else? For Barry Bonds haters the answer is no.



His feet and head almost doubled in size? Are you kidding me? There is no way you can ever provide legitimate support for such a rediculous argument. But it isn't about proof for you is it?

The feet and head of a grown man cannot double in size no matter what they put in their body. Double? Hah. Thanks for the laugh.


Oh and about an hour ago he hit another one to dead center against LA. He just keeps hitting home runs now that he is healthy and people are pitching to him. He just keeps on hitting them. He's almost 43 and keeps on hitting them. Must be the roids he allegedly took years back.

 

[G_M]

Must be the roids he allegedly took years back.

This is crazy!! If you want to cheer for Bonds fine...this is America I guess you can do whatever you want. But please for the love of God do some reading. Read the available grand jury transcripts and read Game of Shadows.

BONDS ADMITTED USING STEROIDS.....

He said that he used the CREAM and the CLEAR which were later determined to be steroids. Bonds said he thought the were flaxseed oil. If you want to believe that fine.

Bonds was pissed that McGwire who was also using roids was getting so much pub and was determined to break his record. Baseball F'd up, buried it's head in the sand during the whole sad episode.

 

[kupman]

good grief...did Bonds admit to using the cream and the clear. Yes he did. He also stated that he used it 1x/home stand. That dosing ain't going do much. Plus, nobody actually knows if that stuff actually works anyway. If you really want to hang your hat on that then you really do not have much to hang your hat on.

Also, your assertions that he took winstrol and HGH is purely conjecture.

Next, even if he did or does test positive for steroids - guess what - the penalties for use are not much.

So in the end, you have a guy that hit more HRs in a single season that any other and will probably hit more in his lifetime than any other. So, in the end, he is probably the greatest HR hitter of all time.

You don't have to like it...but that is the way it is.

sorry

 

[slugking50]

That's my favorite group of guys as well. Before the Candlestick outfield fence was a padded wall, and chain-link. Before bleachers. Before Bonds.

I suppose you tuned out sometime before the outfield bleachers were being installed.

Enjoy the NBA.

No I started tuning out in 1996-1998 when it starting getting appearent that lots of guys were on the juice in baseball an nobody cared because cheating is so acceptable in baseball.

Around 2004, I started only caring about the Giants winning and the Dodgers losing after that point.


With Barrys increased B.S and Sabeans love for senior citizens i started losing my passion for the team.


It's sad because as a kid baseball was my favorite sport....

 

[slugking50]

You completely failed to get the point. My point was that there are a lot of guys that grew dramatically since they became professionals. Does that mean all of them took roids? The point of bringing up Shaq is to draw a direct connection to someone ouside of MLB that was small when he entered the league and got rediculously huge afterword. But no one ever questions if Shaq took roids. Not Shaq. He isn't the type of guy to do that.

Similiarly if someone like Shaq didn't take roids, and got rediculously huge over a short period of time, is it out of the realm of possibility that it could happen to someone else? For Barry Bonds haters the answer is no.



His feet and head almost doubled in size? Are you kidding me? There is no way you can ever provide legitimate support for such a rediculous argument. But it isn't about proof for you is it?

The feet and head of a grown man cannot double in size no matter what they put in their body. Double? Hah. Thanks for the laugh.


Oh and about an hour ago he hit another one to dead center against LA. He just keeps hitting home runs now that he is healthy and people are pitching to him. He just keeps on hitting them. He's almost 43 and keeps on hitting them. Must be the roids he allegedly took years back.

Yeah I bet he stopped because as we know theres a test for HGH.... Oh wait.... I wonder how much bigger his organs are then the average human. 10%-20% i'm guesiin. But Im sure thats all genetics. Right?


Barrys back on the juice. I saw a clip on SC tonight and the man is getting bigger again.

If you look at pictures of Bonds before/after you can see his neck size increase by atleast 50% Increases that arent explainable by working out alone. Double is a slight exaggeration.


Shaq.... Although I cant stand him, I have no idea whether he has taken steriods but I rather doubt it. Ive never seen the signs of a steriod/hgh user with him. Anything is possible.

Im sure there are many that take steriods/hgh in basketball and especially football. I'm sure football probably has the highst percentage.

 

[slugking50]

good grief...did Bonds admit to using the cream and the clear. Yes he did. He also stated that he used it 1x/home stand. That dosing ain't going do much. Plus, nobody actually knows if that stuff actually works anyway. If you really want to hang your hat on that then you really do not have much to hang your hat on.

Also, your assertions that he took winstrol and HGH is purely conjecture.

Next, even if he did or does test positive for steroids - guess what - the penalties for use are not much.

So in the end, you have a guy that hit more HRs in a single season that any other and will probably hit more in his lifetime than any other. So, in the end, he is probably the greatest HR hitter of all time.

You don't have to like it...but that is the way it is.

sorry

http://www.amazon.com/Game-Shadows-...1823160?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1177586222&sr=8-2

 

[G_M]

Also, your assertions that he took winstrol and HGH is purely conjecture.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/06/24/MNGEK7AMTF30.DTL

In this article you have another person asserting that Bonds was given steroids, Winstrol. What would his motivation be to lie about that?

Only in the Barry "bubble" do we have people that believe he didn't use steroids. My four year daughter thinks there is a man on the moon who turns a light on every night so we can see it. Doesn't matter if I explain the dynamics of oxygen or H2O. She believes it and I can't prove there isn't.......

But we all know the truth....

 

[kupman]

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/06/24/MNGEK7AMTF30.DTL

In this article you have another person asserting that Bonds was given steroids, Winstrol. What would his motivation be to lie about that?

Motivation.....how about he is one person among millions of people who hate Barry Bonds and would like to see him burn.

Only in the Barry "bubble" do we have people that believe he didn't use steroids. My four year daughter thinks there is a man on the moon who turns a light on every night so we can see it. Doesn't matter if I explain the dynamics of oxygen or H2O. She believes it and I can't prove there isn't.......

But we all know the truth....

I never said that I do not believe he took steroids. I am not an idiot. I, of course, have strong suspicions that he used drugs. I would even make a bet that he did if I had to. However, I also see the smaller possibility that he is telling the truth so I am not willing to burn him at the stake.

Besides, like I said, even if someone does turn-up a smoking gun at some point, it does not really change much. The penalty for first offense in baseball is not much. He is still the best HR hitter of all-time.

 

[BawLa]

Yeah I bet he stopped because as we know theres a test for HGH.... Oh wait.... I wonder how much bigger his organs are then the average human. 10%-20% i'm guesiin. But Im sure thats all genetics. Right?

There are many sports players at the professional level that have bigger EVERYTHING than the average human. Thats why they are pros and we watch them. And it is genetics. I've studied genetics thoroughly. It is no wonder why a fat mom and a fat dad more than likely produce a fat child. It is no wonder why really skinny guys with a higher basic metabolic rate have trouble putting on weight.

You are aware that black men have generally better genetics when it comes to physical size, speed and strength, right? All you have to do is look at ANY sport where speed, strength and flexibility are roots for success. Look at the NFL - dominated by black men. Look at the NBA - dominated by black men. Look at the summer olympics. I could go on forever.

Just like Chris Rock said, "Once they make a heated hockey rink, we'll dominate that **** too."

Many black ancestors were selectively bred by white slaveowners to be bigger and stronger.

Barrys back on the juice. I saw a clip on SC tonight and the man is getting bigger again.

I won't even dignify your continued baseless speclation with a response.

If you look at pictures of Bonds before/after you can see his neck size increase by atleast 50% Increases that arent explainable by working out alone. Double is a slight exaggeration.

Shaq.... Although I cant stand him, I have no idea whether he has taken steriods but I rather doubt it. Ive never seen the signs of a steriod/hgh user with him. Anything is possible.

Double is a slight exaggeration? That's rich.

So it goes from DOUBLE to 10-20% and then back to 50%. You know why you can't make up your mind, because you're full of IT.

You haven't seen signs that Shaq has taken steroids but you have in Bonds? Why? Becuase the media hasn't told you to look at Shaq? If you actually did what you say, and looked at the before/after you will see that Shaq's and Barry's growth was very similar.

Im sure there are many that take steriods/hgh in basketball and especially football. I'm sure football probably has the highst percentage.

The only thing you are sure of - slugking - is that you don't like Barry Bonds. Hey, what a great nickname for Barry....The SlugKing.

 

[SLAB]

Alright...I'm going to reiterate my question.

Why does the whole steroid issue turn everyone so off of baseball, yet it happens in every other sport, and there no mention of it?

In football you have people like Shawn Merriman, yet there is no huge outcry over how football sucks because doping is so obvious. ..Honestly, and he even TESTED POSITIVE and he's not thrown to the slaughtering range.

I mean, does it have to come down to when Shawn is going to break the sack record when people are finally going to start getting mad? Or does it not matter because it is football, and evrybody loves football no matter what?

What if it was a more prestigious record? If there was a very good player, who magically turned great over one offseason and started breaking all of Jerry Rice's records, would we be having this same talk?

It's amazing how blinded people are, and seem to take it soley out on baseball, even though it is in ALL SPORTS!!!

Another question, would it even be a question if the guy was a media darling?

...

Back to baseball, it just makes me sick how Barry is the sacrificial lamb...I guarantee if Barry was a good boy, and a good interview, and a nice guy it wouldn't even be a question. The media says "The guys been a @$$ to us forever, and ow it's time to get him back," and every single blinded person jumps blindly onto the bandwagon of hate.

I'm not saying "BONDS DIDN'T DO TEH ROIDZZ!1!!" but I am saying that the level of complete hate the guy gets is 100% unjustified, and even if you think it is...It should go all ways...If you don't watch baseball because of steroids, stop watching sports in general because it IS going on and it will STILL BE going on until there is 100% accurate ways of testing.

Get over it.

And get used to it.

 

[BawLa]

This is crazy!! If you want to cheer for Bonds fine...this is America I guess you can do whatever you want. But please for the love of God do some reading. Read the available grand jury transcripts and read Game of Shadows.

BONDS ADMITTED USING STEROIDS.....

He said that he used the CREAM and the CLEAR which were later determined to be steroids. Bonds said he thought the were flaxseed oil. If you want to believe that fine.

I say allegedly to stir up people like you. It obviously worked. Now down to the nitty-gritty.

I am well aware that Barry was unaware that the cream/clear he took was in fact steriods.

This is what I said in the very first post:

Everyone makes mistakes in their lives. Even 'The Great Barry Bonds'. You don't have to respect his mistakes. You should respect him as the best player in the history of baseball.

I also talked about how his - what I belive to be - minor and limited steriod use, is irrelevant in the bigger picture. He's the best player of our time, he's the greatest home-run hitter in the history of the game, and he deserves to be honored at the top.



What I don't understand why the game of shadows authors won't reaveal their sources. It's not like they will get murdered for revealing national security secrets or something. It then becomes more than plausable that these guys fabricated thier facts to make money and they had no qualms about burning Barry at the stake. It is well known that Barry, even since his days with the Pirates, was not exactly what you would call a media savvy guy. He hates the media and they hate him. It then makes sense why the media has singled out Barry as the one bad guy where it is likely that there was widespread use throughout the league. So the media singles him out because he's about to break hallowed records? He clearly has shown, throughout the course of his time in SF, that he consistently puts up 40+ homers/year when he gets at least 400 at-bats. And this is in a pitchers ballpark BTW. In an age where anyone will do and say anything for money is it that unrealistic that the Game of Shadows is illegitimate? Then again, just like you say, this is America, and you can believe whatever you want. I am of the minority, that questions the validity of the sources of which the media draws its "information".

If I wanted to read a fictitious novel I would pick up the Lord of the Rings. Much more interesting to me.

 

[kupman]

Well Slab, I can see that we see things much the same way on this issue.

Alright...I'm going to reiterate my question.

Why does the whole steroid issue turn everyone so off of baseball, yet it happens in every other sport, and there no mention of it?

The above question is a question that I really find interesting...and not in a point my finger 'what are you idiots thinking anyway' kind of way. I think it tells a lot about how we view different sports differently.

That is, the records set in the golden age of baseball are seen as being sacred, while records set in other sports really do not matter to people as much. It really is interesting.

 

[BawLa]

Alright...I'm going to reiterate my question.

Why does the whole steroid issue turn everyone so off of baseball, yet it happens in every other sport, and there no mention of it?

In football you have people like Shawn Merriman, yet there is no huge outcry over how football sucks because doping is so obvious. ..Honestly, and he even TESTED POSITIVE and he's not thrown to the slaughtering range.

I mean, does it have to come down to when Shawn is going to break the sack record when people are finally going to start getting mad? Or does it not matter because it is football, and evrybody loves football no matter what?

What if it was a more prestigious record? If there was a very good player, who magically turned great over one offseason and started breaking all of Jerry Rice's records, would we be having this same talk?

It's amazing how blinded people are, and seem to take it soley out on baseball, even though it is in ALL SPORTS!!!

Another question, would it even be a question if the guy was a media darling?

THANK YOU!!!!!

I said the same thing last year and was amazed at how it was NO BIG DEAL whatsoever.

And Shawne didn't even say that he took them unknowingly. But no biggy right? He's not Barry Bonds.

 

[G_M]

I am well aware that Barry was unaware that the cream/clear he took was in fact steriods.This is what I said in the very first post:


I also talked about how his - what I belive to be - minor and limited steriod use, is irrelevant in the bigger picture. He's the best player of our time, he's the greatest home-run hitter in the history of the game, and he deserves to be honored at the top.If I wanted to read a fictitious novel I would pick up the Lord of the Rings. Much more interesting to me.

Even before he started using steroids Bonds was a great player. To me that's part of the shame of it all.

This whole thing is much like the O.J. trial/outcome. Many people including me believe O.J. killed two people and got away with it. Other people think he was innocent and you really can't argue with them. They think he was framed and set up by the police.

I believe Bonds used large quanities of steroids and probably is still using HGH or whatever other substance he can get away with but since there is no testing we won't know for sure. I also believe without the use of steroids he would not be near the HR record at this point. Bonds was a great player maybe the greatest of our generation.

I place much blame on MLB they knew what was going on from McGwire and Sosa to Caminiti to Canseco. They all knew what was going on and turned away....

 

[kupman]

I also believe without the use of steroids he would not be near the HR record at this point.

I think a lot of people think that way. However, that type of thinking is really a big leap in logic.

If you are interested, you should read this paper. It made me reconsider the way I think about HR hitting in particular and extreme human accomplishments in general.

http://www.arthurdevany.com/webstuff/images/DeVanyHomeRunMS.pdf

 

[pdxKingsFan]

And Shawne didn't even say that he took them unknowingly. But no biggy right? He's not Barry Bonds.

AND he was under serious consideration for defensive MVP in a season he was suspended for steroid use and had hundreds of apologists in the media. It boggles the mind.

 

[Bricklayer]

Oh that;s a load of hooey by Bonds apologists (99.9% of whom live wihtin 100 miles of San Francisso at this point). You will note that football has had testing of steroids for nearly 20 years, and that as soon as Williams was found positive, he was suspended. And if you think there would have been no discussion of the validity of a sack record if he had been caught on the final weekend of the season having already set it you are being ridiculous. And if he gets caught again, his career is in trouble.

Bonds, arrogance and ugliness aside, matters more precisely because he used the roids to cheat from merely great to all time record holder. Williams did no tmake a mockery of his game, precisely because he is a good youong player but largely irrelevant. Not 1 in 10 people who are not fans of the NFL know who he is. He holds no records. Just a guy. If it turned out Jerry Rice had used roids to maintain his play and set the all time records that would be 1000x worse for football than anything Sean Williams can do. Williams slimed himself, perhaps somewhat his team. Bonds is sliming his entire sport. Defiantly, smirkingly. Quite possibly the most damaging figure for a major sport since...I cannot even think who. Maybe Rose. Superstars in sports at some point inevitably are expected to start thinking of the sport as its representative. Bonds is just Terrel Owens -- all about himself, and about to replace a classy player who was 1000x the man he was atop one of the most hallowed records in sports. Its a colossal loss/loss for baseball, and one that they are going to be having to apologize about until somebody in the distant future comes along and mercifully cleanses their record books for them. That's why he matters.

 

[kupman]

Bonds, arrogance and ugliness aside, matters more precisely because he used the roids to cheat from merely great to all time record holder.

This is the kind of flying leaps in logic that I was just talking about. Nobody knows if this is true....pure conjecture.

 

[Bricklayer]

This is the kind of flying leaps in logic that I was just talking about. Nobody knows if this is true....pure conjecture.

No, the flying leap in logic is that Bonds is the first power in history to get dramatically, DRAMATICALLY more powerful as he closed in on 40. Does not happen. Has not happened. Will not ever happen again if they ever get the sport clean. I can pinpoint the beginning of his abuse to within one 12 month period so obvious were the results.

 

[kupman]

No, the flying leap in logic is that Bonds is the first power in history to get dramatically, DRAMATICALLY more powerful as he closed in on 40. Does not happen. Has not happened. Will not ever happen again if they ever get the sport clean. I can pinpoint the beginning of his abuse to within one 12 month period so obvious were the results.

Well, I can see that you have not read the link that I provided above.

But anyway, nobody increased their HR production as DRAMATICALLY as Roger Maris did when he broke the HR record (sideline: people were not very happy with Maris either). Second, strength and power often do not decline significantly before the age of 40. So yes, it does happen. Furthermore, the way it looks right now, he could be hitting HRs into his 50s if he wanted.

 

[BawLa]

Well, I can see that you have not read the link that I provided above.

But anyway, nobody increased their HR production as DRAMATICALLY as Roger Maris did when he broke the HR record (sideline: people were not very happy with Maris either). Second, strength and power often do not decline significantly before the age of 40. So yes, it does happen. Furthermore, the way it looks right now, he could be hitting HRs into his 50s if he wanted.

Thanks for the link. That was an incredible read. And here I was talking about the advantages/disadvantages of the different ballparks.

 

[kupman]

Thanks for the link. That was an incredible read. And here I was talking about the advantages/disadvantages of the different ballparks.

Wow....somebody read it. I have referred many people (from here and other places) to the paper and nobody has actually ever read it. Thanks for taking the time to read it.

I am glad you enjoyed it. It is a paper that made me re-think how I conceptualize extreme human performances. I don't know if the article provides the answer in the steroids/HR issue. However, I think it certainly shows that the issue is not nearly so cut and dry as many would like to think.

Like many things in the word, the deeper you dig and the more that you learn, the more interesting the topic becomes.

 

[BawLa]

Wow....somebody read it. I have referred many people (from here and other places) to the paper and nobody has actually ever read it. Thanks for taking the time to read it.

I am glad you enjoyed it. It is a paper that made me re-think how I conceptualize extreme human performances. I don't know if the article provides the answer in the steroids/HR issue. However, I think it certainly shows that the issue is not nearly so cut and dry as many would like to think.

Like many things in the word, the deeper you dig and the more that you learn, the more interesting the topic becomes.

I really did enjoy. And it also made me see a new angle. If you don't get bogged down with the stats, that is. Unfortunately I think some people might get hung up on the stats and miss the amazing points that he makes -- no -- proves.

 

[slugking50]

There are many sports players at the professional level that have bigger EVERYTHING than the average human. Thats why they are pros and we watch them. And it is genetics. I've studied genetics thoroughly. It is no wonder why a fat mom and a fat dad more than likely produce a fat child. It is no wonder why really skinny guys with a higher basic metabolic rate have trouble putting on weight.

You are aware that black men have generally better genetics when it comes to physical size, speed and strength, right? All you have to do is look at ANY sport where speed, strength and flexibility are roots for success. Look at the NFL - dominated by black men. Look at the NBA - dominated by black men. Look at the summer olympics. I could go on forever.

Just like Chris Rock said, "Once they make a heated hockey rink, we'll dominate that **** too."

Many black ancestors were selectively bred by white slaveowners to be bigger and stronger.



I won't even dignify your continued baseless speclation with a response.



Double is a slight exaggeration? That's rich.

So it goes from DOUBLE to 10-20% and then back to 50%. You know why you can't make up your mind, because you're full of IT.

You haven't seen signs that Shaq has taken steroids but you have in Bonds? Why? Becuase the media hasn't told you to look at Shaq? If you actually did what you say, and looked at the before/after you will see that Shaq's and Barry's growth was very similar.



The only thing you are sure of - slugking - is that you don't like Barry Bonds. Hey, what a great nickname for Barry....The SlugKing.

Such spite. Stanley in Roseville is that you?

Your right. I formed my opinions based on the media and what I am programmed to think. I'm a robot who cannot think rationally and logically for myself without any bias whatsoever.....

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that the physical changes that bonds made are impossible. You cannot gain as much muscle mass as he did without the use of steriods/hgh. It would have been interesting to see Bonds without a shirt on to see just how much "bacne"(A side effect of steriods /hgh use which are huge bulging acne spots that can be several inches in diameter) he had. But i'm sure that can be explained by the boards esteemed geneticist anyway.

Slug: Full of it!!! Full of logic and common sense that is.

 

[BawLa]

And he just keeps on knocking 'em out. At such an impressive rate too, you know, for a 42 year old.

 

[slugking50]

And he just keeps on knocking 'em out. At such an impressive rate too, you know, for a 42 year old.

Amazing what designer steriods and HGH can do.

 

[John Galt]

....you may as well throw a big "EFF YOU" middle finger to the MLB when you watch.

I do.

 

[SLAB]

I do.

Is it just baseball?

Or all of sports?

Because I guarantee there's juicing in every sport.

If it's all, I commend you for having such strong feelings.

If it's only baseball, then I don't get the hypocritical view on it all.

I'm fine with people hating the MLB because of roids...But what about the NFL? Sprinting? Cycling? Swimming? Olympics?

 

[VF21]

I do.

As do I.