So 10th pick or worse, who do you pick? (merged)

#61
Meh, Will have to disagree. I have seen enough of Noah to know his rebounding will translate, and leadership ability.

Honestly how many people have seen Yi play more than a handfull of games? It's 90% hype with this guy against an inferior league. :rolleyes:

I agree with you about Yi but I don't think Noah will be that good. He's gotten outrebounded by smaller guys(Julian Wright outrebounded him 10-4 in an NCAA game, in another Al Thornton outrebounded him 9-4) and whenever he goes against an NBA calibre big man he seems to get dominated. He just doesn't seem to play well against future NBA big men. And his ego is too big IMO.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#62
Honestly how many people have seen LeBron play more than a handfull of games? It's 90% hype with this guy against an inferior league. :rolleyes:

I edited your statement there just to point out that you could say that about jsut about anyone. And I think we may be kidding ourselves if we think college at this point is that much better than a league like the CBL which has former college stars (Chris Porter) and NBAers (Wang Zhi Zhi) playing in it.
 
#63
I agree with you about Yi but I don't think Noah will be that good. He's gotten outrebounded by smaller guys(Julian Wright outrebounded him 10-4 in an NCAA game, in another Al Thornton outrebounded him 9-4) and whenever he goes against an NBA calibre big man he seems to get dominated. He just doesn't seem to play well against future NBA big men. And his ego is too big IMO.
Well he also plays next to Horford who is a very good rebounder. Damn, I wish we could get him.
 
#64
I agree with you about Yi but I don't think Noah will be that good. He's gotten outrebounded by smaller guys(Julian Wright outrebounded him 10-4 in an NCAA game, in another Al Thornton outrebounded him 9-4) and whenever he goes against an NBA calibre big man he seems to get dominated. He just doesn't seem to play well against future NBA big men. And his ego is too big IMO.
How exactly do you know that his ego is too big? I have heard from more than one columnist that he is a tremendous team leader. If Noah is available when we pick it is a no brainer. The guy can do it all but shoot and that is something he can improve on.
 
#65
Meh, Will have to disagree. I have seen enough of Noah to know his rebounding will translate, and leadership ability.

Honestly how many people have seen Yi play more than a handfull of games? It's 90% hype with this guy against an inferior league. :rolleyes:
How many have you seen?
 
#66
I edited your statement there just to point out that you could say that about jsut about anyone. And I think we may be kidding ourselves if we think college at this point is that much better than a league like the CBL which has former college stars (Chris Porter) and NBAers (Wang Zhi Zhi) playing in it.
College is much more strong and athletic than the Chinese league, I think most scouts would agree it's a more difficult competition.
 
#67
College is much more strong and athletic than the Chinese league, I think most scouts would agree it's a more difficult competition.
personally, my impression of college ball is that it is chock full of strong and athletic players, not so great on the skills and/or talent.

the CBL and euroleague, i feel, have players working in a team concept, with a high premium on skills.

so it's kind of a wash. the NCAA may be stronger and more athletic (maybe) than the CBL, but the international leagues have players who can play precisely because they don't rely on their athleticism.
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
#68
Cisco. I called that one a month before he drafted him.

This Geoff as mystery man thing is kind of old news. Not really. He's quiet, but you can only live so long on picking Peja Stojakovic -- its a different era and there are no more darkhorse countries where guys aren't scouted anymore.
Ahh. So what does your crystal ball show you this time?
 

Warhawk

Give blood and save a life!
Staff member
#69
Ahh. So what does your crystal ball show you this time?
I think this time is harder with the higher pick, as one or two strange picks higher up could drastically change things.

Cisco was a low enough pick that we generally knew what would fall our way.
 
#70
How many have you seen?
Of Noah I have seen probally.... hrmmm... 30 games from sophomore/junior seasons.

Yi I have seen only a couple of youtube videos.. heh. I agree with what Brick says about Lebron, but only to a certain extent. You cannot compare LeBron to Yi. LeBron was a "sure thing", or as much of one as you can be. Yi is some guy that is from China we don't know much about. If we take Yi it would be someone that we are taking a chance on. More so than Noah in my opinion.
 
#71
Of Noah I have seen probally.... hrmmm... 30 games from sophomore/junior seasons.

Yi I have seen only a couple of youtube videos.. heh. I agree with what Brick says about Lebron, but only to a certain extent. You cannot compare LeBron to Yi. LeBron was a "sure thing", or as much of one as you can be. Yi is some guy that is from China we don't know much about. If we take Yi it would be someone that we are taking a chance on. More so than Noah in my opinion.
I don't think anyone here has claimed Yi wasn't a "chance". Just like all prospects it's hard to project how their skills and abilities will translate to the NBA which is a huge step from any other level of competition, but Yi has still been scouted quite a bit and his skills and abilities are well known. How it will translate is the real question, he's a high risk high reward pick but that doesn't mean he isn't worth picking. Picks like that can blow up in your face or they can pay off big time (see Amare and Gasol). We really need a lot more upside than what Noah has to offer and he is not that much more of a sure thing than Yi is, he isn't that athletic, he's thin and he can't really do much scoring wise other than tip ins and put backs. He's not going to be the physical presence he was in college.
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
#72
I don't think anyone here has claimed Yi wasn't a "chance". Just like all prospects it's hard to project how their skills and abilities will translate to the NBA which is a huge step from any other level of competition, but Yi has still been scouted quite a bit and his skills and abilities are well known. How it will translate is the real question, he's a high risk high reward pick but that doesn't mean he isn't worth picking. Picks like that can blow up in your face or they can pay off big time (see Amare and Gasol). We really need a lot more upside than what Noah has to offer and he is not that much more of a sure thing than Yi is, he isn't that athletic, he's thin and he can't really do much scoring wise other than tip ins and put backs. He's not going to be the physical presence he was in college.
Based on Petrie's record, he's not into high risk, high gain. Sometimes, I wish he'd swing for the fences, but that's not his style. He's going to look for someone with the fewest negatives. Also, his track record indicates he'd rather not go after a big man because they typically take longer to develop than the smaller guys. My crystal ball is still telling me he's not picking a center.
 

Entity

Hall of Famer
#73
Thing is, assuming Oden comes out, that means:

Oden
Durant
Wright
Horford

likely 1-4

leaving

Noah
Jianlin
Hibbert
Hawes

and that's 8 guys right there. If we are #10 we are screwed as far as having our pick of the litter, but all we need is one or two teams to reach on a Brewer or Julian Wright or somesuch and we could/should have at least one of those bigs listed above fall to us. Not sure who, and maybe every team jsut takes its big and goes home leaving us to sift through the leftover SFs and such, but its not out of line to think that somebody will slip a few slots and be there for us. Just so many available this year.
With that in mind lets look at the team that would be in front of us. Is their biggest need in the frontcourt or the backcourt?

Memphis- Oden
Boston- Durant
Millwalkee- Wright
Phx- has Marion and Amare may want to stick with tweeners
Seattle have 5 frontcourt players under contract for next season may want to start thinking about future after Lewis and Allen with the 2/3 spots
Chicago Who knows about these guys
Portland ridding 1 with Magloire still have Randolph, Pryz, and Aldridge may want a SF
Minn has best big man in league still looking for the 1,2, or 3 to make this team work
Charolette probably losing Wallace to FA so will need a 2/3 have Okafor and May

I think we have a good chance with the 10th pick of getting 1 of the back 4 of that group.
 
#74
Based on Petrie's record, he's not into high risk, high gain. Sometimes, I wish he'd swing for the fences, but that's not his style. He's going to look for someone with the fewest negatives. Also, his track record indicates he'd rather not go after a big man because they typically take longer to develop than the smaller guys. My crystal ball is still telling me he's not picking a center.
I don't know if I agree -- Jason Williams was the definition of high risk, high reward. Everyone knew Paul Pierce was the safe bet at the time, and while in the long run Pierce might have been the better pick, Jason Williams helped set the tone for the running/unselfish/passing teams that ended up outliving his stay in Sacramento. It also shows Petrie's willing to draft for need, because at the time the Kings badly needed a point guard.
 
#75
I don't know if I agree -- Jason Williams was the definition of high risk, high reward. Everyone knew Paul Pierce was the safe bet at the time, and while in the long run Pierce might have been the better pick, Jason Williams helped set the tone for the running/unselfish/passing teams that ended up outliving his stay in Sacramento. It also shows Petrie's willing to draft for need, because at the time the Kings badly needed a point guard.
I'm gonna have to go ahead and call you crazy for saying "might have been", Pierce would've been a vastly superior pick to Williams ending in much more team success. Having an inside outside tandem in Pierce/Webber would've been huge and championship caliber. Williams while fun to watch and fit in the running/passing team was still only an ok-solid pg in his career.
 
#76
How exactly do you know that his ego is too big? I have heard from more than one columnist that he is a tremendous team leader. If Noah is available when we pick it is a no brainer. The guy can do it all but shoot and that is something he can improve on.
I kinda tend to agree here. Petrie's draft history has shown that he's drawn towards winners and players that produce at a HIGH level regardless of the competition. Martin/Douby/Ja. Williams/Price/Peja/Hedo/Ju. Williams/Corliss

Really Gerald Wallace was an atypical pick. Gilbert Arenas seemed to have fit the mold better, but we all know that story by now. Petrie picks winners and he picks players that have shown they can produce at a high level.
 
#77
I'm gonna have to go ahead and call you crazy for saying "might have been", Pierce would've been a vastly superior pick to Williams ending in much more team success. Having an inside outside tandem in Pierce/Webber would've been huge and championship caliber. Williams while fun to watch and fit in the running/passing team was still only an ok-solid pg in his career.

That may be true(I REALLY wanted Pierce that draft), but Jason Williams single handedly made the Kings and IMO the NBA relevant again. I think he can single-handedly be thanked for taking NBA out of the dreaded DARK AGES(Heat-Knicks"Van Gundy vs. Riley") of basketball. Jason Williams is the reason the Suns/Warriors/Raptors/Celtics play the style of basketball they do.
 
#78
if......

if Roy Hibbert and Jeff Green do not declare i would take Josh McRoberts over Spencer Hawes and Tiago Splitter.

period. if those 2 dont come out the people we are looking at are going to be moving up in the draft. i really think McRoberts would fit us well. i know alot of people dont like him. but i think that would be a way to go.

where well artest and bibby play next year?? draft day trades maybe????????
 
#79
I'm gonna have to go ahead and call you crazy for saying "might have been", Pierce would've been a vastly superior pick to Williams ending in much more team success. Having an inside outside tandem in Pierce/Webber would've been huge and championship caliber. Williams while fun to watch and fit in the running/passing team was still only an ok-solid pg in his career.
That's a semantic thing. I meant "Pierce might have been" as in "Pierce was" -- I was acknowledging that Pierce would have been the better long term pick.

At the same time, Jason Williams' role in creating the contending Kings, including the fact that Petrie turned him into Bibby, can't be ignored.
 
#80
Of Noah I have seen probally.... hrmmm... 30 games from sophomore/junior seasons.

Yi I have seen only a couple of youtube videos.. heh. I agree with what Brick says about Lebron, but only to a certain extent. You cannot compare LeBron to Yi. LeBron was a "sure thing", or as much of one as you can be. Yi is some guy that is from China we don't know much about. If we take Yi it would be someone that we are taking a chance on. More so than Noah in my opinion.
But just because we might not know much about Yi it doesn't mean that the scouts and the GM don't. I would say they would know as much about Yi as the do about Noah and if they pick Yi before Noah it would suggest that they think he is a better player.

Don't think that just because we don't know much about the kid that the scouts don't either. They would have scouted him for some time now and are very aware what he is about. I very much doubt they go by the youtube clips ;)
 
#81
Of Noah I have seen probally.... hrmmm... 30 games from sophomore/junior seasons.

Yi I have seen only a couple of youtube videos.. heh. I agree with what Brick says about Lebron, but only to a certain extent. You cannot compare LeBron to Yi. LeBron was a "sure thing", or as much of one as you can be. Yi is some guy that is from China we don't know much about. If we take Yi it would be someone that we are taking a chance on. More so than Noah in my opinion.
What makes you think that LeBron was a sure thing?

You never know, players with that much hype coming into the NBA could easily just fold.
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
#82
I don't know if I agree -- Jason Williams was the definition of high risk, high reward. Everyone knew Paul Pierce was the safe bet at the time, and while in the long run Pierce might have been the better pick, Jason Williams helped set the tone for the running/unselfish/passing teams that ended up outliving his stay in Sacramento. It also shows Petrie's willing to draft for need, because at the time the Kings badly needed a point guard.
That's the best counter argument, but I think it's the exception to the rule. In fact, that's one year where Petrie didn't abide by his "best available player" rule. It wasn't a great pick, especially when Pierce and Nowitski were to be had. I wonder if Petrie ever does that again.
 
#83
That's the best counter argument, but I think it's the exception to the rule. In fact, that's one year where Petrie didn't abide by his "best available player" rule. It wasn't a great pick, especially when Pierce and Nowitski were to be had. I wonder if Petrie ever does that again.
I am not sure that many rated Pedja as a safe pick when Petrie drafted him.
 
#84
That's the best counter argument, but I think it's the exception to the rule. In fact, that's one year where Petrie didn't abide by his "best available player" rule.
Oh, come on now. You're making his picks sound predictable, and they are somewhat, but not in that way. For example, when was the last time he picked a big in the first round? Answer: Unless you consider Gerald Wallace to be a PF, then he never has. He has picked guys who weren't the best in most years, the only question is whether it was intentional.

Picks: SF Corliss, SF Peja, swingman Tariq, PG Jason, nobody (traded away pick), swingman Hedo, SG/F Gerald, nobody (traded away), nobody (traded away), SG Kevin, swingman Francisco, SG Quincy.

I think he picks for a style of basketball, and avoids anyone that might bomb. But that doesn't mean that every reasonable person must agree that his choice is the best available.
 
#85
I think the last 3 picks will be the best picks available at their positions at the time of the pick... Martin was drafted at a spot in the draft where thre were a bunch of nobodys surrounding him.

Cisco the same.... We all know if Cisco gets the SF job next year (if Artest is gone) that he will flourish. I got a good feeling that his confidence has soared in these last few weeks.

As for Douby. Give it a year or two. So Petrie has done well in the draft. Oh yah.. Look at Wallace and who was drafted near him. Petrie is the master of the mid/high first round picking.
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
#86
Oh, come on now. You're making his picks sound predictable, and they are somewhat, but not in that way. For example, when was the last time he picked a big in the first round? Answer: Unless you consider Gerald Wallace to be a PF, then he never has. He has picked guys who weren't the best in most years, the only question is whether it was intentional.

Picks: SF Corliss, SF Peja, swingman Tariq, PG Jason, nobody (traded away pick), swingman Hedo, SG/F Gerald, nobody (traded away), nobody (traded away), SG Kevin, swingman Francisco, SG Quincy.

I think he picks for a style of basketball, and avoids anyone that might bomb. But that doesn't mean that every reasonable person must agree that his choice is the best available.
Petrie is predictable. He's given enough interviews and done enough drafts that certain themes come through. I don't see what your language on bigs has to do with him not being predictable. For the most part he's picked low in the draft when quality bigs aren't available - so they were the best player available. And because for the most part he picks best player regardless of position, he's gone small. That's pretty predictable. He's stated before that he goes for best player available. It's hard enough getting it right on quality, much less on the subset of quality within a need category. His interview after the Jason Williams interview indicated he didn't abide by his own rule. If one were predicting, one would predict that he would abide by the rule more than disregard it. And if your last point means that his pick may not in fact be the best player available - in hindsight - well, that's just silly. Of course his pick might not be the best player available in hindsight.
 
#88
The more I think about it the more I think Petrie will pick up Hawes (if still available) or maybe Conley.

We need a big and Hawes is the sort of player that Petrie likes. Not athletic, skilled big man with high basketball IQ.

If Yi is still there (unlikely) then I think we will pick him.
 
#89
Do you think a "safe pick" for Petrie means what is safe for others? Of course not. It's what he perceives to be safe.
Errso what exactly is your argument here?! You say Petrie is predictable yet he pulled the Pedja pick out of nowhere much to the dismay of the disgruntled fans. Many at the time saw it as a risky pick. Every pick is a risky pick. There is no such a thing as a safe pick.

Even the safest of prospects can do a knee and end their careers. There is certainly no such a thing as a safe pick where Petrie has been picking. Its pretty much a crap shoot and he has managed to end up picking very good to servicable players with his picks.
 
#90
Petrie is predictable... He's stated before that he goes for best player available... Of course his pick might not be the best player available in hindsight.
Right. He doesn't always pick what will turn out to be the best player, but he tries to. However, finding rookies for a team is half art, half opinion, there is nothing very objective about it. In Petrie's case it is almost a trademark style, very likely going back to his days as a player in Portland. He was a very skilled ball handler and shooter, and played a very smart game. They weren't a big and athletic team, but they made up for it with ball movement.

There's nothing weird about expecting that he should shape teams in his image. People learn from their life experiences and put those experiences to use later on.

Those are the glasses that Geoff is wearing when he is looking at draft candidates. Everybody's perceptions are going to be affected by who they are and where they've been, and he is no exception. His perception of the best player will not be universally accepted at the time, nor will it necessarily be afterwards. Which is OK. A GM needs to have a vision of what he is trying to create. But the (objectively) best player available won't always fit that vision.

Are we disagreeing about anything, or not?

Gary:
I think the last 3 picks will be the best picks available at their positions at the time of the pick... Martin was drafted at a spot in the draft where thre were a bunch of nobodys surrounding him.

Cisco the same.... We all know if Cisco gets the SF job next year (if Artest is gone) that he will flourish. I got a good feeling that his confidence has soared in these last few weeks.

As for Douby. Give it a year or two. So Petrie has done well in the draft. Oh yah.. Look at Wallace and who was drafted near him. Petrie is the master of the mid/high first round picking.
OK, the guys drafted after Wallace included Sam Dalembert, Tony Parker, Gilbert Arenas, Bobby Simmons and Mehmet Okur. Doesn't seem all that masterful to me. Kevin Martin was the almost the last decent guy available in a bad draft year (Varejao and Nocioni being exceptions), and is looking like a great choice. Garcia was picked over over David Lee, Linas Kleiza, Luther Head, Monta Ellis and a bunch of other players who are arguably at least as good. It's too early to be sure of much with regards to Douby, but so far he's not looking superior to guys like Williams or Rondo.

It's instructive to see what other teams have done with lousy draft positions. Nearly all have picked a loser to two, but some have done very well. Spurs picks since '99, for example, have included Ginobili, Tony Parker, John Salmons (who they immediately traded for Speedy Claxton) and Leandro Barbosa, and all their picks were at 26-28. Since '99 the Lakers got Devean George plus 6 current members of their team at 23-29.

Petrie has done a better than average job of finding bargains late in the first round. He hasn't usually picked the best, but he has never, ever picked the worst, and there's a lot to be said for that. On the other hand, that's not so hard to do if you're disregarding team needs.

He has never found a keeper in the second round, but I doubt that he puts much effort into it. He's seemed willing to trade away 2nd round picks at the drop of a hat, so he probably doesn't put much faith in them.

I don't expect him to pick the guy, at #10, who will be considered in retrospect to be the deal of the 2007 draft. He will pick a skilled guy who won't bomb. He is very good at doing that, but he's human, and shouldn't be teflon-coated.
 
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