Dont Blame MUSS !

[nbrans]

Honestly folks calling this team a transition team is just as dis ingenious as calling New York a transition team... For the Kings to become a premier team they need to aquire tallent. They do NOT have the cap space to buy it. That leaves trades or the draft and 12th picks will not push this team to the next leval. As for trades sure Im game but I don't see the kind of trade that will bring a franchise type player to Sac in the crds mainly beceause we lack the requisit tallent to trade FOR him.

This is absolutely untrue. At the bare minimum the Kings have room to use their exceptions to acquire more talent. If Bibby opts out there's some serious room. If someone else is traded for an expiring (always possible) there's more room yet.

But really, I'm just seriously tired of the negativity. People act like it's easy to just go out there and get a dominant big man. Or that it's easy to just blow everything up, trade everyone of value and rebuild through the draft. People act like the future is hopeless, nevermind that we have a 23 year old star in the making and our rookie went for 21 points the other night. The cap space isn't blown. The Kings players have value. The trading deadline is appraoching, and after that one of the best drafts in years. The future, unlike for the Knicks, is bright.

 

[rumpled]

Totally agree with the original post, its silly to call for his head like this roster is supposed to be taking us places. Do we really even want a replacement coach, what would be the point...the slight chance we could get a 1st round exit and miss the lottery? If he's not bad, we're still a team missing the playoffs and trying to develop for the future. If he's bad, we get a better pick...I'm willing to wait and see.

I really have no problem with his approach, taking players out, etc. I think the guy knows how to coach and fans just have a problem with a fresh face in here playing jerry sloan with their players. It's actually quite useful to experiment with the lineups and find out what we have in the young players.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Musselman

 

[Vlade4GM]

This is absolutely untrue. At the bare minimum the Kings have room to use their exceptions to acquire more talent. If Bibby opts out there's some serious room. If someone else is traded for an expiring (always possible) there's more room yet.

But really, I'm just seriously tired of the negativity. People act like it's easy to just go out there and get a dominant big man. Or that it's easy to just blow everything up, trade everyone of value and rebuild through the draft. People act like the future is hopeless, nevermind that we have a 23 year old star in the making and our rookie went for 21 points the other night. The cap space isn't blown. The Kings players have value. The trading deadline is appraoching, and after that one of the best drafts in years. The future, unlike for the Knicks, is bright.

nothings easy!!! who cares if it's easy or not, still doesn't change the fact that we have to rebuild to ever get back to contender status? martin is good but he's no franchise player you can build around. he's a complimentary player on a contender. this roster will never compete.

 

[nbrans]

nothings easy!!! who cares if it's easy or not, still doesn't change the fact that we have to rebuild to ever get back to contender status? martin is good but he's no franchise player you can build around. he's a complimentary player on a contender. this roster will never compete.

We are rebuilding. But that doesn't mean you just give your talent away for the sake of rebuilding. The teams that do that suck for years -- I would like to see the team lose more to get in better draft position, but I also don't want every player traded away for 2 cents on the dollar. I think the model is more Miami/Phoenix (bad for a few years but still talented, get good draft picks, get good players, reemerge) than Atlanta/Portland.

Change is going to be incremental, nothing is going to happen all at once. Contrary to popular opinion, Petrie is not an idiot. He's been making good moves. It just takes a while.

 

[Bricklayer]

Totally agree with the original post, its silly to call for his head like this roster is supposed to be taking us places. Do we really even want a replacement coach, what would be the point...the slight chance we could get a 1st round exit and miss the lottery? If he's not bad, we're still a team missing the playoffs and trying to develop for the future. If he's bad, we get a better pick...I'm willing to wait and see.

I really have no problem with his approach, taking players out, etc. I think the guy knows how to coach and fans just have a problem with a fresh face in here playing jerry sloan with their players. It's actually quite useful to experiment with the lineups and find out what we have in the young players.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Musselman

Jerry Sloan has earned that right in a 1000 ways that Eric Musselman has not. And that is absolutley critical. Its not a philosophical point, its a basic a one about human nature. You will take a lot more **** from someone who's been to the mountain and has perceived authority than you will from a snot nosed kid.

In any case, Eric Musselman will not be fired this season, should not be fired this season (actually I suppose if we dropped 20 in a row or something some Maloof might snap, but otherwise...). But his long term future is in doubt now on several fronts. Was in doubt before he arrived. Is in more doubt now. He's already thrown out all the hooks needed to have an excuse to toss him. He's already struggled to mesh, control, or form chemistry with his players. Prolonged mediocrity, or regression, will find him in an untenable position with few if any supporters willing to go out on a limb for him. He's never won anything at the NBA level, and simply may not be an NBA coach. Heck, even his vastly overrated father never did anything in the NBA besides get his teams to fight hard while losing. Muss should still enter next season as coach UNLESS somebody really sexy hits the markets and the Maloofs go into stars in their eyes mode and try to nab him. Of course given that they fired Rick, and did not pursue Nellie, not sure who could really qualify. But next season all bets will be off. If Muss does not get adequate results, whatever those may be in the Maloofs' eyes, relatively early in that season, then he will be in constant danger of being canned at any time with only Geoff's sit on your *** philosophy milking him along toward a second summer. That is Muss's future outlook. He desperately needs to either mature in a hurry or have Geoff bail him out, or more realistically, both.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Whining about whining is still whining.

G³ wins the thread.

 

[6th]

G³ wins the thread.

So much so that I just added the quote to my signature line.

 

[Vlade4GM]

Whining about whining is still whining.

i totally agree, but i wasn't whining about the whining, just merely said i think it's more productive to discuss what should be done and not who's to blame. that's just my prefence, i like solutions that's all. i'm not trying to tell anyone how to think or talk, just expressing my opinion, take it or leave it.

 

[LilMissDiva]

Totally agree with the original post, its silly to call for his head like this roster is supposed to be taking us places. Do we really even want a replacement coach, what would be the point...the slight chance we could get a 1st round exit and miss the lottery? If he's not bad, we're still a team missing the playoffs and trying to develop for the future. If he's bad, we get a better pick...I'm willing to wait and see.

I really have no problem with his approach, taking players out, etc. I think the guy knows how to coach and fans just have a problem with a fresh face in here playing jerry sloan with their players. It's actually quite useful to experiment with the lineups and find out what we have in the young players.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Musselman

I completey agree with you.

 

[Vlade4GM]

We are rebuilding. But that doesn't mean you just give your talent away for the sake of rebuilding. The teams that do that suck for years -- I would like to see the team lose more to get in better draft position, but I also don't want every player traded away for 2 cents on the dollar. I think the model is more Miami/Phoenix (bad for a few years but still talented, get good draft picks, get good players, reemerge) than Atlanta/Portland.

Change is going to be incremental, nothing is going to happen all at once. Contrary to popular opinion, Petrie is not an idiot. He's been making good moves. It just takes a while.

i'm talking about trading miller, bibby and artest. that isn't exactly selling out the team because bibby is on his way out regardless, miller just simply does not fit in, and artest is our only real trading chip that can get us something significant in return. also, it's only a matter of time before artest starts getting restless with the losing. these aren't guys we can build around. we need to start over and that starts with draft picks and losing, not ok-good vets, a .500 record, and MLE's.

do i think petrie is good enough to pull this off, i'm not sure, but i'd like some indication that he's going to do something like that.

 

[HndsmCelt]

We are rebuilding. But that doesn't mean you just give your talent away for the sake of rebuilding. The teams that do that suck for years -- I would like to see the team lose more to get in better draft position, but I also don't want every player traded away for 2 cents on the dollar. I think the model is more Miami/Phoenix (bad for a few years but still talented, get good draft picks, get good players, reemerge) than Atlanta/Portland.

Change is going to be incremental, nothing is going to happen all at once. Contrary to popular opinion, Petrie is not an idiot. He's been making good moves. It just takes a while.

Well you are part right. The Kings changes have been increemntal and all mesaurably in a down hill fashon. The incremenatl changes are are a CLEAR sign of team that ARE in rebuild and transition mode. Just look at Kings history if you don't want to look at other teams. From the aqusition of Webber and J Will untill the peek they were measurablly better each seaons in terms of stats and performance in the post season... no look at the stats and post season performance since the move to replace Webber with moveable parts.

You are dead on about quaitly bigmen not growing on trees but what have wee seen that indicates the Kings even went after any this post season or are interested in trading for one now? What are the doing to position them selves to get one in the upcomming off season? How many years of 6'7" Centers and PF's are you wiling to watch before you take it as a sign that the managment LIKES Hobbit ball?

Complain about negativity all you wnat but there IS a difference between honest realistic assment and being negative OR being a optimist. I don't think of my self as negative at all but since the end of last season I have seen NOTHING that gave me any reason to belive this team was improving and LOTS of evidence that they are in decline.

 

[nbrans]

You are dead on about quaitly bigmen not growing on trees but what have wee seen that indicates the Kings even went after any this post season or are interested in trading for one now? What are the doing to position them selves to get one in the upcomming off season? How many years of 6'7" Centers and PF's are you wiling to watch before you take it as a sign that the managment LIKES Hobbit ball?

Complain about negativity all you wnat but there IS a difference between honest realistic assment and being negative OR being a optimist. I don't think of my self as negative at all but since the end of last season I have seen NOTHING that gave me any reason to belive this team was improving and LOTS of evidence that they are in decline.

First off, we know at least from the Sacramento Bee that GP went after Chris Wilcox, and there were some rumors that he also pursued Przybilla, the two main free agent bigs available in the offseason. He came up empty, but your assertion that he's not trying isn't correct. None of us are privvy to the trade offers and things like that, but one can reasonably assume that if he went offer Wilcox and Przybilla there were other pursuits as well, which, sadly, did not pay off.

And GP is on the record about the attempt to build some cap room going into the offseason. But short of Anderson Verejao or Darko, there's not much available in the offseason. Luckily there's still the draft, which is practically entirely comprised of big men. So who cares if there isn't measurable improvement from before -- this team needs to be bad anyway.

This is an incomplete team, but it's still a team with a lot of talent. SAR was a good pickup at his price, and he has trade value. Salmons has been a very good pickup. Martin was drafted. The Bonzi disaster was avoided. Douby has at least shown he can put up 20 points. Price has shown flashes. Peja for Artest was a godsend. I mean, what bad deals are you really talking about? The only bad deals are the ones that didn't happen -- and you can't blame Petrie for failing to make the impossible happen.

Everyone under the sun knows the Kings need size. I fail to believe, especially given the published reports about Wilcox and the rumors about Przybilla, that Petrie somehow doesn't know this.

 

[Sluggah]

How?? All Barkley kept saying was we were to small. Thats not Muss's fault that is GP's fault you can't coach and play what you don't have. GP put together this front line of short soft PF/C and Muss gets the blame and because Charles said what we have been saying for 2 years he all of a sudden "out coached Muss on national TV"

i would agree we are too small and that is not muss's fault.

but barkley was also questioning why we weren't taking timeouts and certain times, why we weren't fouling on certain plays, why we were running corner threes for cold players just off the bench, why we weren't trying to get martin more involved to help out bibby.

*shrug*

it was stuff like that, that i felt myself agreeing with. and in general, i don't enjoy agreeing with charles barkley.

but hey. theres a reason i'm not coaching the nba. or barkley for that matter.

 

[AriesMar27]

i doubt petrie tried all that hard to get a good bigman.... when we needed a back up pg and center, petrie sat on his butt and watched the magic trade garbage pieces to detroit for darko and arroyo....

but hey.... we do have kenny thomas....

that artest/peja trade isnt looking so sweet this season outside of the fact that peja is injured.... artest needs to be traded...

and muss is completely to blame for his bad coaching.....

 

[VF21]

i doubt petrie tried all that hard to get a good bigman.... when we needed a back up pg and center, petrie sat on his butt and watched the magic trade garbage pieces to detroit for darko and arroyo....

but hey.... we do have kenny thomas....

that artest/peja trade isnt looking so sweet this season outside of the fact that peja is injured.... artest needs to be traded...

and muss is completely to blame for his bad coaching.....

Yes, Muss is to blame for some horrendous coaching decisions. That doesn't change regardless of what Petrie may or may not have given him to work with. It's not an absolute...

The Artest/Peja trade is looking incredibly good, as a matter of fact, and I wasn't even for it. Peja signed a humongous contract that we would not have offered and he would have walked - probably for nothing.

If people could pillorize Adelman, who had a record that will stand the test of time, I think there is certainly room to criticize a coach who called a critical play out of a time out for a rookie who had been riding the bench all game.

 

[nbrans]

i doubt petrie tried all that hard to get a good bigman.... when we needed a back up pg and center, petrie sat on his butt and watched the magic trade garbage pieces to detroit for darko and arroyo....

but hey.... we do have kenny thomas....

that artest/peja trade isnt looking so sweet this season outside of the fact that peja is injured.... artest needs to be traded...

and muss is completely to blame for his bad coaching.....

Detroit got expiring contracts and a first for Darko and Arroyo -- they wanted to clear cap room to sign Ben Wallace. Bonzi (the Kings only expiring last year) and a first might have gotten it done, and in hindsight it probably would have been the right move. Of course, at that time Bonzi was considered part of the future and Kings fans probably would have crucified Petrie for it at the time -- you can see the debate here: http://www.kingsfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10573&highlight=bonzi+darko

Of course, the Kings would now be facing the prospect of overpaying Darko in the offseason or watching him walk, and I question how much he'd really be helping. Certainly it would be nice to have a shotblocking seven footer, but Darko's really not that good.

 

[rumpled]

i would agree we are too small and that is not muss's fault.

but barkley was also questioning why we weren't taking timeouts and certain times, why we weren't fouling on certain plays, why we were running corner threes for cold players just off the bench, why we weren't trying to get martin more involved to help out bibby.

This is actually true and sort of made me wonder if we were really trying too hard to win the game. The Douby play you mentioned and all the shots for Cisco...well, as I recall everyone complained Adelman didn't have a flexible enough rotation. It's starting to work a bit actually. So its horrible coaching because of Muss' player rotations...yet we were getting crushed vs LA and almost pulled one out despite of them...hmmm.

Anyway if he could coach seven feet he'd be taller.

 

[Bricklayer]

well, as I recall everyone complained Adelman didn't have a flexible enough rotation.

I'm getting tired of that. A vocal minority whined incessantly about that, but often without any perspective or comprehension of what they were arguing for. Yanking guys in and out is generally a chump strategy. Either your guys all suck too much to earn the big minutes, or you are too stupid to recognize it if they do. A coach who DOESN'T utilize a consistent, predictable rotation if given the tools to do so is a flat out fool. And of course particualrly in Rick's case as we had one of the most well defined 6-8 man talent cores in the league.

Don't attribute foolishness to the fanbase as a whole just because a certian group was very loud and are now reaping what they sowed.

 

[AriesMar27]

This is actually true and sort of made me wonder if we were really trying too hard to win the game. The Douby play you mentioned and all the shots for Cisco...well, as I recall everyone complained Adelman didn't have a flexible enough rotation. It's starting to work a bit actually. So its horrible coaching because of Muss' player rotations...yet we were getting crushed vs LA and almost pulled one out despite of them...hmmm.

Anyway if he could coach seven feet he'd be taller.

thats not really true.... when we had players worth bringing in adelman used them.... and more importantly, half of the ones that werent used were usually injured... who was webbers back up? or divac(pre brad)? bobby backed up bibby and doug....

 

[BigWaxer]

It's getting really, really insufferable on this message board. People keep bashing Musselman, bashing Petrie, bashing the players...

This is a team in transition. If you expected more out of this team than what you're seeing then it's YOUR fault for getting your hopes up. We're less than two years into a rebuilding project, and it takes time. Rome wasn't built in a day.

Every time the team loses I think "Whew, one step closer to a better draft pick." Try it sometime.

I have said the same thing as well and agree with all that.

It's human/sports fan nature to bash on everyone when things are not going well. Right now its all about expectations. I was thinking about 35 games to start and thats what we are headed for.

This team could not win with many coaches. Nelli as much as I do not like him, may have been the only available coach to maximize our small size.

Players missing free throws is not the coaches fault. Funny thing is most the people argueing against Muss here were saying what I just did above to defend RA.

I look at it more like, Muss is gone in 2 years... for one reason, we still will not have the talent to win and he will get blamed.

Don't bye the crazy sub'n arguement. Guy is trying anything he can to get this group of bad players to play together.

And if we had Darko... HAHAHAH j/k

 

[jcassio]

Certainly it would be nice to have a shotblocking seven footer, but Darko's really not that good.

Are you kidding? Darko's the second coming! Haven't you heard??
I mean, at the very least, he's Vlade-the-second.
Course, he can't pass to save his life, and he only gets 6" off the ground, but that's 4" better than Miller...

 

[Vlade4GM]

darko would be a very good complimentary acquisition, but he's not worth 10 million a year. that's just way too much for potential, teams get burned paying that much on potential (like with hilario and dalembert).

 

[ezekielbear]

I just want to see a direction. That's all.

If we're going to rebuild, hey, that's fine. But, do it right.

If you're going to compete and make moves to do so in the playoffs, that's fine, but, do so.

Being a lower lotto team/cheap playoff team is the biggest waste of all, I've always felt like that.

Your pick isn't anything great, and, you play an extra 4-5 games a season. If you're on the up and up, or working on something and you're in that position, that's fine.

But, when it seems like you're there and going down, with some contracts that limit you, it's a bad feeling.

I think the majority just want to see a direction here. Rebuilding on the fly without high draft picks/cap space, is really hard.

 

[kupman]

Okay, I will not blame Muss. However, at this point I am sure as heck not going to give him any credit either.

 

[filipporich]

I just want to see a direction. That's all.

If we're going to rebuild, hey, that's fine. But, do it right.

If you're going to compete and make moves to do so in the playoffs, that's fine, but, do so.

Being a lower lotto team/cheap playoff team is the biggest waste of all, I've always felt like that.

Your pick isn't anything great, and, you play an extra 4-5 games a season. If you're on the up and up, or working on something and you're in that position, that's fine.

But, when it seems like you're there and going down, with some contracts that limit you, it's a bad feeling.

I think the majority just want to see a direction here. Rebuilding on the fly without high draft picks/cap space, is really hard.

That's the point!

 

[Wuster]

Let's see....Muss would be a great coach if he only had real talent and atheleticism at the 4 and 5 and a better point guard than MB. Well, who wouldn't look a lot better as a coach if they have that? A team like that would win with a merely good coach, likely. To me a great coach creates the best team possible out of the talent he's given.

Right KD... I could coach a team like that, too. And you're also right about the great coaches. Almost blasphemy to say it on KinsFans, but Phil Jackson comes to mind. Look at this year's Lakers for a good example.

 

[HndsmCelt]

First off, we know at least from the Sacramento Bee that GP went after Chris Wilcox, and there were some rumors that he also pursued Przybilla, the two main free agent bigs available in the offseason. He came up empty, but your assertion that he's not trying isn't correct. None of us are privvy to the trade offers and things like that, but one can reasonably assume that if he went offer Wilcox and Przybilla there were other pursuits as well, which, sadly, did not pay off.

And GP is on the record about the attempt to build some cap room going into the offseason. But short of Anderson Verejao or Darko, there's not much available in the offseason. Luckily there's still the draft, which is practically entirely comprised of big men. So who cares if there isn't measurable improvement from before -- this team needs to be bad anyway.

This is an incomplete team, but it's still a team with a lot of talent. SAR was a good pickup at his price, and he has trade value. Salmons has been a very good pickup. Martin was drafted. The Bonzi disaster was avoided. Douby has at least shown he can put up 20 points. Price has shown flashes. Peja for Artest was a godsend. I mean, what bad deals are you really talking about? The only bad deals are the ones that didn't happen -- and you can't blame Petrie for failing to make the impossible happen.

Everyone under the sun knows the Kings need size. I fail to believe, especially given the published reports about Wilcox and the rumors about Przybilla, that Petrie somehow doesn't know this.

Well it is near pointless to argue about if the Willcox stories have much merit and if they do how hard GP tried to get him ect. None of know what transpired that did NOT result in an offiseaon that prety much resulted in leting Bonzi walk, ginving most of that sallery to Salmons for then next few years and picking up Mo Taylor on the cheap. All else is specualtion.

I'll grant you that quality big men are EXTREEMLY hard to get and that this years FA offerings hold little promise in that regard, so we ARE left with trading for an existing big (possible bu unlikely) or drafting. And yes this years draft is full of 7 footers (Yeah!) but givne that quaetly of drafts is normally at best specualtion the incentive really is to hedge the bet in 2 ways. First try to draft as high as possible and second try to trade for an existing big that other teams may not be sold on. Darko is one example of jsut that situation. There are several re4asons why big guys that have the ablity to impact teams pose risks, either huge contracts, injuries, age (see Mutumbo and Mourning).

At this point moving a few of our moveable pieces for more expiring contracts COULD help back fill a hole made later by moving one or more of the biger names (and contracts) for picks. Then if posible and necessary trading multiple picks to move up in the draft.

Conviently moves to shed players at this point would also very likely result in even worse performance for THIS season AND more PT for the younger players we would like to see develop. At this point the Kings have nothign to Loose by loosing big and nothign really to gain by wining.