Allen Iverson thread - DAY TWO

By the way...perusing the Warriors board they had lifted some trade that Ezekielbear(sp......posts here as well so he may swing by) saying that the deal on the table is:

Bibby, Cisco, Thomas and Vitaly plus a #1

for

Iverson, Dalembert and Ollie

It also says that the Sixers have set a 6PM ET deadline for teams to try and beat that deal.

Just reporting more rumors :D
I really don't think that a deal could be meant with the sixers unless a deal would include a promsing young guy. If the kings really want Iverson they will have to offer Martin in the place of Cisco. And maybe sar for thomas but i think cisco for martin should be enough for the sixers to swallow.
 
True. However, take a look at their starting lineup and find me good shooters. You can't. He is averaging 7.3 assists this year on a team without many shooters. We have just ended an era where our team philosophy revolved around shooters. And we still have many of those pieces. Miller and Martin would be the primary beneficiaries of Allen's passes, however few they may be. I stated earlier that Allen could average a double-double with us because of that fact.
It's hard to be a "good shooter" when you rarely get the ball in a position to get a good shot.

For example, let's just look at John Salmons. Last year with AI he averaged .420 FG% with 7.5 points. This year, with about the same minutes, he's shooting .467 FG% with 9.1 points.

Last year, Salmons was a bust.

So the point is, how would we know if Philly has any quality shooters or not?
 
I really don't think that a deal could be meant with the sixers unless a deal would include a promsing young guy. If the kings really want Iverson they will have to offer Martin in the place of Cisco. And maybe sar for thomas but i think cisco for martin should be enough for the sixers to swallow.
Ssshhhh. Don't give 'em any ideas. :rolleyes:

I think with the depth of the draft that Cisco + a #1 should do it.
 
If that trade rumor is true, I really hope it happens. Bibby does not have a future with the team, Potapenko is deep bench and expendable, Garcia is decent but there really isn't a place for him to grow on the team like he needs, and ditching KT's contract is a dream. AI of course is great with a questionable personality. Dalembert is very overpaid, but still young, currently has skills the team could really use, and should only get better with time. Ollie is a salary throw in, no big gain or loss there.


For Philly, they get a good PG with the option of coming off the books who will mesh with CWebb and the coaching staff, a talented young guard, a decent but overpriced and whinny forward, a pick, and a bench big man that will come off the books. They will free up a large chunk of salary after the season, have a young prospect, a mid-late first rounder, and a player with a contract not as heavy as Dalembert. That should definitely get them on track to rebuild.

And why would Martin have to be included? I think people are way overvaluing Iverson. He is an incredible player, though his effect on a team is very questionable and he is demanding a trade, meaning that right now Philly is paying him a lot of money to do nothing. They need to move him fast, which hurts them. At the same time, getting rid of AI means that they are going to rebuild the team. If that is so, then Dalembert is probably on the block as well as he has a lot of money coming to him but is not the sort of guy they want to build a team around. They want to clear their salaries (including getting Webber out of there) as best they can and move on. I don't think they would mind Dalembert staying, but getting rid of his contract during a house cleaning wouldn't be a bad idea.
 
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Ssshhhh. Don't give 'em any ideas. :rolleyes:

I think with the depth of the draft that Cisco + a #1 should do it.
I would be shocked if they took a deal like that, I love cisco but he looks like he is going to be a role player at best. Come on I really don't think cap space and a pick in the mid to late first round is the best offer the sixer have gotten, I think they could do much better. If they add martin and maybe sar to the deal it would be some what fair.
 
And why would Martin have to be included? I think people are way overvaluing Iverson. He is an incredible player, though his effect on a team is very questionable and he is demanding a trade, meaning that right now Philly is paying him a lot of money to do nothing. They need to move him fast, which hurts them. At the same time, getting rid of AI means that they are going to rebuild the team. If that is so, then Dalembert is probably on the block as well as he has a lot of money coming to him but is not the sort of guy they want to build a team around. They want to clear their salaries (including getting Webber out of there) as best they can and move on. I don't think they would mind Dalembert staying, but getting rid of his contract during a house cleaning wouldn't be a bad idea.
Iverson is lock to go to the hall, to not get a player for the future would be just dumb for the sixers. And look at want the other teams are offering for iverson: Boston is offering their young guys, chicago is offer their young guys, minn is offering foye, clips is offering livingtson, ind is offering Granger. If other teams can't find a way not to trade their young guys what makes you think that the kings could?
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
I still think that some of you are getting way too carried away about what it would take to get a deal done.

You need to remember that the Sixers have to get rid of Iverson right now. That doesn't mean they're going into full rebuilding mode in December. What it means is they'll most likely get the best possible deal to carry them through the year.

With Bibby having an option at the end of the year, and our expiring contracts, it's only logical that we're in contention. To think we have to add draft picks, etc. seems excessive.

And I wouldn't get too excited about ANY of the propositions that have been posted so far. They're all nothing more than someone's edcuated (or not) guess about what combination might be best. Anyone with access to realGM trade checker can do it. And saying it comes from an inside source is questionable at best. As Joe Maloof made clear, they're not talking. And I'm pretty sure the Sixers are the same way. Yes, there may be hints but the only people who know what's really going on are Geoff Petrie and Billy King.
 
I would be shocked if they took a deal like that, I love cisco but he looks like he is going to be a role player at best. Come on I really don't think cap space and a pick in the mid to late first round is the best offer the sixer have gotten, I think they could do much better. If they add martin and maybe sar to the deal it would be some what fair.
Maybe not fair but Philly isn't exactly dealing from a point of strength right now. They shouldn't have announced that they will be trading him before it actually happens. It's not just cap relief considering they could re-sign Bibby if they want to.
 
I would be shocked if they took a deal like that, I love cisco but he looks like he is going to be a role player at best. Come on I really don't think cap space and a pick in the mid to late first round is the best offer the sixer have gotten, I think they could do much better. If they add martin and maybe sar to the deal it would be some what fair.
See, I’m looking at the deal as Bibby for AI.

Is there another PG out there better than Bibby that cost about 8 million less?

AI wants out, and here is an opportunity for the 76’ers to grab a solid PG in Bibby who has played with a major core player they have before, Webber.

Everybody else caught up in this mess is simply to make the other team HAPPIER; Cisco + salary coming off the books (Corliss or Pot) for the 76’ers, and us a big man (Hunter or SD).

My .02
 
Bibby is special because he'll make Webb better than any other PG they could get. That's why Sac is going to be in the final running for AI.

I could give up Cisco, but KM, forget it. No deal.
 
I still think that some of you are getting way too carried away about what it would take to get a deal done.

You need to remember that the Sixers have to get rid of Iverson right now. That doesn't mean they're going into full rebuilding mode in December. What it means is they'll most likely get the best possible deal to carry them through the year.

With Bibby having an option at the end of the year, and our expiring contracts, it's only logical that we're in contention. To think we have to add draft picks, etc. seems excessive.

And I wouldn't get too excited about ANY of the propositions that have been posted so far. They're all nothing more than someone's edcuated (or not) guess about what combination might be best. Anyone with access to realGM trade checker can do it. And saying it comes from an inside source is questionable at best. As Joe Maloof made clear, they're not talking. And I'm pretty sure the Sixers are the same way. Yes, there may be hints but the only people who know what's really going on are Geoff Petrie and Billy King.
I disagree here, i they will be fulling rebuilding. I think that they will trade iverson for an up and coming young player, exp contexts and then look to suck up the rest of the season and enter the Oden sweepstakes.
 
And why would Martin have to be included? I think people are way overvaluing Iverson. He is an incredible player, though his effect on a team is very questionable and he is demanding a trade, meaning that right now Philly is paying him a lot of money to do nothing. They need to move him fast, which hurts them. At the same time, getting rid of AI means that they are going to rebuild the team. If that is so, then Dalembert is probably on the block as well as he has a lot of money coming to him but is not the sort of guy they want to build a team around. They want to clear their salaries (including getting Webber out of there) as best they can and move on. I don't think they would mind Dalembert staying, but getting rid of his contract during a house cleaning wouldn't be a bad idea.


I think people are highly UNDERVALUING Bibby...
Mike Bibby is one of the best shooting point gaurds in the league. A franchise player... i would love to see AI in purple but i also would be really sad to see Bibby go.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
I disagree here, i they will be fulling rebuilding. I think that they will trade iverson for an up and coming young player, exp contexts and then look to suck up the rest of the season and enter the Oden sweepstakes.
Yeah, I know you disagree but you can't really point to anything to support it except your own feelings. Hey, you think they're gonna go for lots of youth. If they do, they aren't going to deal with the Kings. If they do deal with the Kings, I think they'll go with the proven player for now and sort it out at the end of the season.

I guess we'll see what happens eventually, won't we? Both scenarios are equally possible and both have some merit. The difference is that you generally don't try for a total rebuild on the fly in December.
 
Maybe not fair but Philly isn't exactly dealing from a point of strength right now. They shouldn't have announced that they will be trading him before it actually happens. It's not just cap relief considering they could re-sign Bibby if they want to.
I disagree, by announing that they are trading Iverson they start a biding war between teams. This way other teams have to put up what the sixers want to win.

And i really don't think that the sixers would want to resign bibby, who is 28 and looking for big money at a long term deal.
 
I disagree, by announing that they are trading Iverson they start a biding war between teams. This way other teams have to put up what the sixers want to win.

And i really don't think that the sixers would want to resign bibby, who is 28 and looking for big money at a long term deal.
I personally don't think any team in the EAST should be rebuilding in December; a couple below .500 teams will make the playoffs. The EAST will rebuild during the off-season.
 
Bibby is special because he'll make Webb better than any other PG they could get. That's why Sac is going to be in the final running for AI.

I could give up Cisco, but KM, forget it. No deal.
that's definitely a plus for philly, but its hardly a deal-maker. they'll be looking forward to unloading webber's contract when it expires after next season, so getting bibby to complement webber's game is hardly forward thinking. they'd take bibby cuz he's a good PG. he may not be the most natural PG in the nba, but they're trading a future hall of famer, and bibby's somewhere between being in his prime and being a seasoned veteran. not too old. not too young. steady, relatively consistent, not much of a risk. the only deal i've seen that could be more appealing in the short term is maggette and livingston for iverson. if i'm philly, i jump on that deal. livingston is gonna be worth something someday, and has great height at the PG psition. maggette is no slouch, either, when he's healthy. and you could play him at the SG for an ultra-strong swingman combo with iggy. this lineup doesn't look too bad to me:

PG: shaun livingston
SG: corey maggette
SF: andre iguodala
PF: chris webber
C: samuel dalembert

but who knows? should be resolved soon, though...so we won't have to wait to long to find out...
 
We can agree to disagree as that goes against every principle of negotiation...

Anyway, just relistening to the Bucher interview this morning and he indicates that Philly is looking for a decent player(possibly all star), some cap relief and a pick.
 
^I've read that the Clippers won't give up Livingston.

Which is crazy, on the one hand, because in my opinion he's not very good at all (except, of course, against the Kings), but then, I think AI/Brand/Cassel is not a good mix, so I don't really blame them for not trying too hard to get AI.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
Anyway, just relistening to the Bucher interview this morning and he indicates that Philly is looking for a decent player(possibly all star), some cap relief and a pick.
I would never use anything Ric Bucher says to prove my point, BUT a decent player, cap relief and possibly a pick sounds pretty much like what I've been trying to say all along.

:p
 
Yeah, I know you disagree but you can't really point to anything to support it except your own feelings. Hey, you think they're gonna go for lots of youth. If they do, they aren't going to deal with the Kings. If they do deal with the Kings, I think they'll go with the proven player for now and sort it out at the end of the season.

I guess we'll see what happens eventually, won't we? Both scenarios are equally possible and both have some merit. The difference is that you generally don't try for a total rebuild on the fly in December.
The proof is there. The sixers tryed to trade Iverson to the bobcats who are fulled with young guys. They tryed to deal with Boston who is only offering their young ones. Chi town only has young guys to offer. The sixers have been after Foye since the draft. And its been reported that the sixer are interested in livingstson. And with the sixers going nowhere fast going young would make the most sense.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
Dude, fine. You keep quoting vague rumors and acting as though you think they're cast in concrete.

Please read my comment again. I'm not interested in arguing this with you any longer. We'll see what happens.
 
I disagree here, i they will be fulling rebuilding. I think that they will trade iverson for an up and coming young player, exp contexts and then look to suck up the rest of the season and enter the Oden sweepstakes.
I think they will take the best offer on the table as soon as possible and move on. Remember, they have to trade him and it is not like he is in his mid 20's. Trading A.I. 5 years ago might have brought back a greater return, but there is always talk about aging stars and then you add the whole volitile teammate thing which all adds up to a lower return for philly.
 
I think they will take the best offer on the table as soon as possible and move on. Remember, they have to trade him and it is not like he is in his mid 20's. Trading A.I. 5 years ago might have brought back a greater return, but there is always talk about aging stars and then you add the whole volitile teammate thing which all adds up to a lower return for philly.
this is something i can agree with completely. iverson's just sittin' around, waiting to be traded. philly isn't gonna wait for the teams who are "sleeping on it." they want to be washed clean of iverson, by all accounts. they want this debacle to be over with. they'll take the best available offer, and as soon as possible. its not like there's a shortage of interest in iverson. the hesitant teams will probably get passed over in negotiations, cuz philly doesn't want to wait around. i'd bet the trigger on an iverson deal gets pulled no later than tomorrow...but don't quote me on that. ;)
 
The proof is there. The sixers tryed to trade Iverson to the bobcats who are fulled with young guys. They tryed to deal with Boston who is only offering their young ones. Chi town only has young guys to offer. The sixers have been after Foye since the draft. And its been reported that the sixer are interested in livingstson. And with the sixers going nowhere fast going young would make the most sense.

Sounds like you haven't read anything in these threads over the last 48 hours. They don't want to send him to an east coast team. Which puts Boston and Chicago at the bottom of the maybe list. Then teams like the Bobcats and others have already made it public that they are out. Which leaves us, GS, and LAC, because it makes no sense to put A.I. next to Kobe. Too much ego, not enough basketballs.

Then you look at the fact that the Clipps aren't neccessarily ready to give up Livingston...they must over-value him. Plus the fact that both teams would be left with holes at one position and a logjam at others. GS is willing but we can offer more so it seems as though we are in the frontrunning.

You need to go back and actually read what has been said before you come in acting like you know what is up. Luckily for you I just gave you a decent, but modest summary.
 
I personally don't think any team in the EAST should be rebuilding in December; a couple below .500 teams will make the playoffs. The EAST will rebuild during the off-season.
Even if the sixers make the playoffs that would just mean first round exist because the only way the sixers go to the playoffs is if they win the divison.
 
Sounds like you haven't read anything in these threads over the last 48 hours. They don't want to send him to an east coast team. Which puts Boston and Chicago at the bottom of the maybe list. Then teams like the Bobcats and others have already made it public that they are out. Which leaves us, GS, and LAC, because it makes no sense to put A.I. next to Kobe. Too much ego, not enough basketballs.

Then you look at the fact that the Clipps aren't neccessarily ready to give up Livingston...they must over-value him. Plus the fact that both teams would be left with holes at one position and a logjam at others. GS is willing but we can offer more so it seems as though we are in the frontrunning.

You need to go back and actually read what has been said before you come in acting like you know what is up. Luckily for you I just gave you a decent, but modest summary.
last i heard, GS was willing to part with baron davis in a trade, and davis alone is more than we can offer. it is, of course, up to philly to decide whether they wanna take on the risk of davis' health, or play it relatively safe with a guy like mike bibby.
 
Then you look at the fact that the Clipps aren't neccessarily ready to give up Livingston...they must over-value him.
And if the Rise Guys' source was correct, the Kings aren't ready to give up Martin, which is supposedly what the Sixers want at this point, along with Bibby and Cisco. So far all the rumors suggest the Sixers want a promising young player(s) in return.
 
And if the Rise Guys' source was correct, the Kings aren't ready to give up Martin, which is supposedly what the Sixers want at this point, along with Bibby and Cisco. So far all the rumors suggest the Sixers want a promising young player(s) in return.
And I want a Ferrari Modena 360 for my Honda Accord but it just isn't going to happen.:p
 
Sounds like you haven't read anything in these threads over the last 48 hours. They don't want to send him to an east coast team. Which puts Boston and Chicago at the bottom of the maybe list. Then teams like the Bobcats and others have already made it public that they are out. Which leaves us, GS, and LAC, because it makes no sense to put A.I. next to Kobe. Too much ego, not enough basketballs.

Then you look at the fact that the Clipps aren't neccessarily ready to give up Livingston...they must over-value him. Plus the fact that both teams would be left with holes at one position and a logjam at others. GS is willing but we can offer more so it seems as though we are in the frontrunning.

You need to go back and actually read what has been said before you come in acting like you know what is up. Luckily for you I just gave you a decent, but modest summary.
Come on you could believe all the rumors you want and come up with solution but this is still a wide open race. If predicting a trade was as easy as looking at rumors everybody would know were iverson was heading by now or any other player.
 
I shudder to post anything by Sam Smith, but here's something to pass the time:

Ask Sam Smith
The Tribune's pro basketball reporter answers reader questions each week during the season

December 12, 2006, 2:23 PM CST


Sorry if my English is bad but I haven't written English for a long time. But my question is who do you think will take AI (Allen Iverson)? Would it make sense for Chicago to trade Ben Gordon, Michael Sweetney and possibly, Adrian Griffin or someone else that doesn't do much for the team? --Guðjón Hilmarsson, Iceland

The majority of the questions I've gotten in the past few days have been about the Bulls trading for Iverson. I decided to answer this one at length because I have to have sympathy for someone who lives in a worse climate that I do, and there aren't many. And you probably can't get across the country and find Phoenix or L.A. Heck, we admire you. Most Americans can't write English. So here goes: No way, AI! What is infinity in reverse? That's the chance of the Bulls pursuing Iverson. Though we'd love to see him at practice--Yes, Practice!--with Scott Skiles. The main rumor has him going to Sacramento and you'd pay to watch Iverson and Ron Artest on the same team. The Trib's sports editor, Dan McGrath, worked in Sacramento and we were commenting the other night on Eric Musselman wanting to return to coaching in the NBA in the worst way, and this would be the definition of the worst way. This is the product of two goofy, fun loving brothers owning a basketball team and making the personnel decisions.

It's been no secret from the beginning that Mike Bibby and Artest have not gotten along and it's starting to come apart with Artest demanding the ball and getting pretty open about his lack of respect for Bibby. The feeling seems mutual. I wouldn't be surprised if Bibby would like to get out and has a free-agent option hanging over the team, though I can't see anyone paying him the $13.5 million he's due next season if he doesn't exercise the option to leave. But it's not that a lot of NBA deals work or make sense, anyway, so you never can be truly surprised. The truism I've always found in NBA trades is the team knows it hates its guy and figures it can't hate the other team's guy as much. This usually changes after a short time. One possible holdup is the Dec. 15 date for some free agents to be dealt. Another is I'd guess the 76ers would like to reroute Bibby somewhere, likely with Chris Webber, who blew off another shootaround and would love to be gone, though likely not as much as the 76ers would like him out. Regarding the Kings, though, you'd then almost have to trade for Stephen Jackson. I can dream, can't I?


Just last week, I wrote a story rating Iverson among the top five little men of all time in the NBA. I admire what he has accomplished as a player at his size. His scoring ability with teams sizing him up and going after him has been amazing. But he's a coach killer and team destroyer because of his work habits or lack of them. You can't have your best player not practicing. Everyone watches what the best player does. That alone is reason why the Bulls never would touch him. For the Bulls, he plays 180 degrees (360 degrees if you ask the players) from the way they play. The Bulls rely on ball movement and player movement in addition to aggressive man defense with help. Iverson holds the ball, over dribbles and plays the lanes to try to get steals. He is the opposite of everything they believe in and preach and would take away from the development of their players.

In fact, to me there's almost no place he fits. Sacramento would be laughable. Which, of course, is why it's probably the leading contender. Though Artest defends, he probably has the worst shot selection in the league, except maybe for Iverson. There would never have been anything like this. You'd have to have the Kings play with a red-white-and-blue ball. The Bobcats, Pacers, Celtics, Warriors and Clippers have been mentioned, but the destinations that make the most sense are Denver and Minnesota. Denver would be a mistake as well, though you know George Karl loves the Iverson kind of player. Karl loves the competitor with an edge, but also loves to engage those kinds of players. His insistence on bringing Anthony Mason to the Bucks ruined that team. While Denver is an entertaining team, the last thing they need is more offense. Yes, Carmelo Anthony needs help, but more on defense. I'm not sure Anthony would do well with Iverson taking so many shots and adding Iverson would create an even worse defensive team, if that is even possible. And it's hard to see Iverson deferring to Anthony, whom Iverson helped lead astray on the 2004 Olympic team. Anthony has been trying to resurrect his reputation since. The talk is the 76ers are interested in a Denver deal as they'd love to put Iverson where he'll fail as they now fault him for their mess, but are believed to be trying to find a taker for Andre Miller in a three-way deal.

Iverson needs to play with a better player, if that is possible, and the only one is Kevin Garnett, who, by the way, is lobbying for Iverson and it would be hard to see Minnesota rejecting that. Iverson really can be a playmaker, though the only time I've ever seen him even try was the occasional All Star game with the fancy pass, and, more significantly, the 2003 USA team in Puerto Rico. That team was filled with veteran stars, many who got out before the 2004 Olympics, and Iverson was terrific. He tried, worked at it and sacrificed on offense because he respected those players. He'll respect Garnett, and Garnett will work his backside off to grab all Iverson's missed shots and get them back to him, a one-man version of what the 76ers had going when they went to the Finals in 2001. I believe that's the only place Iverson will defer and then be available to finish the games, which Garnett doesn't care to do, perhaps the lone hole in his game. It would be an intriguing pairing and perhaps save Iverson's legacy. It's best for Iverson, but who knows if the 76ers will agree if it's best for them. We should see soon, though there are not many teams strong enough to truly take on Iverson's personality and game.

I wish I could have written this as a column for the newspaper, but we are devoting much of our space this week to apologies from all our writers to Rex Grossman and to anecdotes on when Devin Hester first learned to run and how it felt.

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune...msmith,1,3127584.story?coll=cs-home-headlines