Former Chemist employed at the Railyard wants you to know...

[GreenKing]

http://www.sacbee.com/content/news/story/14300534p-15165311c.html

"Witches brew: Manuel Morante has been watching the Kings arena tax giveaway gambit with interest -- especially the part about building a $500 million basketball palace at the old Southern Pacific railyard. Manuel worked in the yards as a chemist 40 years ago. And Manuel thinks Sacramentans should understand the huge challenges of building in the toxic wasteland. "They threw everything into the ground out there," he said. "You can't begin to know what's there. They made acetylene. They had plating shops. I had co-workers who had been there since 1928, and they told me many stories about what went on. Of course they told me about steam engines being buried, and about contaminates that are too numerous to name. God only knows." The preliminary agreement among the Maloofs, city and county kills the deal if railyard costs are too high. …"


Who wants to put money down that the cost of cleaning the site up will skyrocket out of controll?

 

[D-Mass]

Who wants to put money down that the cost of cleaning the site up will skyrocket out of controll?

I suppose that's why this was mentioned:

The preliminary agreement among the Maloofs, city and county kills the deal if railyard costs are too high. …

We know it's dirty and we know it should be cleaned up. What's the alternative...don't clean it up at all?

 

[VF21]

I'll just add the piece was taken from R.E. Graswich's column this morning. Although, with the phrase "arena tax giveaway" in it, you could probably guess.

 

[Kingsgurl]

You know, when I read stuff like that, I'm even MORE for cleaning it up. Who wants crap like that sitting around?

 

[VF21]

You know, when I read stuff like that, I'm even MORE for cleaning it up. Who wants crap like that sitting around?

Graswich?

 

[ShatteredVision]

It's not like they're not going to hire environmental engineers to survey the site before they do anything on it, or anything.

 

[Kingsgurl]

Since it came from Graswich, I'm actually surprised he didn't surmise that the whole thing is really a nefarious plot by the 'billionaire play boy Magoofs' to save on their annual expenditure on glowstick giveaways by having the season ticket holders glow. I'd expect something like that from him. Maybe he is saving that for next weeks column.

And bringing up environmental engineers really detracts from the fear mongering.

 

[JB_kings]

Thank you Mr Morante. I guess nobody would have ever known that there were toxins on this site at one time. Well actually they do know and have been in the process of cleaning them up for years. You know GreenKing weve done this dance before. So I'll try not to repeat myself. UP is on the hook for the cleanup. They have the piles left to haul off to Utah via rail car and cleanup to be done under the active tracks. There is only one active track where the arena site is planned at the north end. That track is needed to move off the contaminated piles and then it's gone. The property is in escrow and the toxic cleanup insurance will take care of any of the "surprises". I can go over in depth the details of the groundwater plumes and the recycling/filtering that is being done. But only if you promise to actually read and respond.
The clause in the agreement about the alternate site was to protect the negotiating position when it came time to purchase the land from Thomas Ent. When you have an agreement that says you must buy acreage at a certain location, it's tough to drive a fair deal to purchase the land.

 

[Ryle]

Of course this was neglected to be mentioned but the clean up of the site is in no way part of this deal. Union Pacific is responsible for every cent of the clean up and that was spelled out on numerous occasions...most recently by Roger Dickinson on the radio.

Again, nothing to see here.....move along Mr. Graswich and find some other lies to spew.

 

[RoyalDiva]

Garlic fries with acetylene......yummmm

 

[VF21]

Thank you Mr Morante. I guess nobody would have ever known that there were toxins on this site at one time. Well actually they do know and have been in the process of cleaning them up for years. You know GreenKing weve done this dance before. So I'll try not to repeat myself. UP is on the hook for the cleanup. They have the piles left to haul off to Utah via rail car and cleanup to be done under the active tracks. There is only one active track where the arena site is planned at the north end. That track is needed to move off the contaminated piles and then it's gone. The property is in escrow and the toxic cleanup insurance will take care of any of the "surprises". I can go over in depth the details of the groundwater plumes and the recycling/filtering that is being done. But only if you promise to actually read and respond.

The clause in the agreement about the alternate site was to protect the negotiating position when it came time to purchase the land from Thomas Ent. When you have an agreement that says you must buy acreage at a certain location, it's tough to drive a fair deal to purchase the land.

The problem is primarily with R.E. Graswich, who continues to spout misleading opinions and outright lies. It's one thing for people to argue the pros and cons of the ballot measure, whether they want a state-of-the-art entertainment facility in Sacramento, and what that venue will cost. It's a totally different type of thing when a columnist for a local newspaper goes out of his way to rant and rave at every opportunity, simply because he doesn't like the ownership of the team.

In a way, though, I guess we should look at it as a bonus. IF the strongest arguments the oppostion can come up with are those being posited by R.E. Graswich and Dave Jones, a reasonably simple campaign of just putting the real facts out there for one and all should be enough to disprove the nay-sayers and convince at least 50% + 1 of the voters in Sacramento County of the benefits to all of them.

I'm still keeping my fingers crossed and I'm still more than willing to do whatever I can, even from 2 hours away from Sacramento County.

Worst case scenario? As Kingsgurl pointed out, just think of the money the Maloofs will save on glowsticks.

 

[Thinker?]

JB has it right. If you poluted it, you are legally on the hook to clean it up. The cleanup cost is UP's to pay.

 

[kennadog]

This kind of ridiculous tactics just makes me mad. Everyone knows what happened at the site. Its a Superfund site for god's sake!!! So what else is new?

This guy worked there 40 years ago!! What the h*ll does he know about the site today? Show me scientific, factual reports that say this site is hazardous and should NEVER be built on.

How many times to they have to repeat that cleanup has been underway for some time, parts of the site are already clean, and they believe that by the time construction starts on a arena in a couple of years that area will have been given a clean bill of health for developing?

Graswich has just reduced this to the level of witch hunt. Good grief.

EDIT: Sorry JBKings, I should have read your better response first. Oh well, had to vent.

By the way, everyone says the railyards will be developed with or without an arena. If an arena can't be developed there because the site is toxic, nothing else will be built there, either. Lenders will flat out not finance development if this is true. Its too much of a risk for them, too. I know, because I work in housing development financing.

Finally, this is NOT a very good argument against an arena. If the land can't be developed, an arena can be built elesewhere.

Have I said what a stupid idiot Graswich is?

 

[VF21]

Graswich has just reduced this to the level of witch hunt. Good grief.

...Have I said what a stupid idiot Graswich is?

Some things bear repeating.

 

[GreenKing]

JB has it right. If you poluted it, you are legally on the hook to clean it up. The cleanup cost is UP's to pay.

A snowball has a better chance in hell than that happening.

 

[Kingsgurl]

Where do you get this stuff, GreenKing. They have NO CHOICE in the matter.

 

[JB_kings]

A snowball has a better chance in hell than that happening.

Thanks for the overwhelming evidence in support of your argument.
So far the only conclusive thing that you have stated is that the area around the railyard smells. Being the open minded person that I am, I decided to drive down there last Saturday. I can state with a clear conscience that in fact, the area smells no better or worse than anywhere else in downtown. And in my opinion, does not "stink".
So in summary, our poll totals are:

Railyard stinks - 1
Railyard doesn't stink - 1

Let's call it a tie.

 

[kennadog]

A snowball has a better chance in hell than that happening.

And your irrefutable evidence of this comment is??? I have been involved in development on a similar site. The cost for the clean-up was born in full by a major oil company.

 

[kennadog]

Railyard stinks - 1
Railyard doesn't stink - 1

Let's call it a tie.

I'm so relieved....I was terrifed for awhile there.

 

[1kingzfan]

More Education: Sacramento Railyard Cleanup Status Reports

OK, now that Graswiich and one member here has raised the concern about the cleanup of the Railyard site and the fear about exposure to potential remaining contamination, I did a little reserach and offer the following links for members, if they care to educate themselves about the TRUE status of the cleanup and the huge amount of cleanup activities already completed.

The links below are from the California Department of Toxic Substances Control website. The Railyard property has been subdivided into several sub-sites (AKA "operable units") that each had different activities and potential different sources of contaminants. If you scan these and the chronologically-listed activities, you can easily capture what has already been done and what is planned to be done, even if you're not technically-oriented.

Someone needs to help here by showing exactly where the new arena is planned to be, and thus which Railyard sub-sites are the key ones to look at in terms of cleanup. I would guess that no more than 3 or 4 of these sub-sites affect arena construction. There is a detailed report, future schedule, and a map for each sub-site.

I could not readily find a good, concise summary of everything at the Railyard site (for those of you who do not want to read about each sub-site), so if someone can find that somewhere and post it, that would be great.

The only thing I'll add is that, having worked in this state as an civil/environmental engineer since 1994, the regulators tend to be overly conservative, when it comes to blessing off sites as being cleaned up. The process of figuring what happened in the past, what is there now, addressing risks to the public based on future land use, and how it is actually cleaned up is long, involved process...one that has been ongoing at the Railyard site since 1988.

Those that are waving the "toxic flag" before you now are merely trying to stir up the masses, when they could do a lot better service to all by starting with the FACTUAL status of each site (like we are doing here) and only then discussing specific concerns that are rooted in fact, not fear-mongering.

Battery Shop Yard
http://www.envirostor.dtsc.ca.gov/public/profile_report.asp?global_id=34360065

Sacramento Station
http://www.envirostor.dtsc.ca.gov/public/profile_report.asp?global_id=34400006

Sand Piles
http://www.envirostor.dtsc.ca.gov/public/profile_report.asp?global_id=34320031

Car Shop 9
http://www.envirostor.dtsc.ca.gov/public/profile_report.asp?global_id=34400009

Central Corridor
http://www.envirostor.dtsc.ca.gov/public/profile_report.asp?global_id=34400010

Central Shops
http://www.envirostor.dtsc.ca.gov/public/profile_report.asp?global_id=34400004

Lagoon
http://www.envirostor.dtsc.ca.gov/public/profile_report.asp?global_id=34400008

Manufactured Gas Plant
http://www.envirostor.dtsc.ca.gov/public/profile_report.asp?global_id=70000034

Northern Shops
http://www.envirostor.dtsc.ca.gov/public/profile_report.asp?global_id=34400007

Ponds and Ditch
http://www.envirostor.dtsc.ca.gov/public/profile_report.asp?global_id=34400005

Redevelopment
http://www.envirostor.dtsc.ca.gov/public/profile_report.asp?global_id=34400011

 

[JB_kings]

Just south of the water treatment plant. At the north end of the railyards. Reading the maps from the above links. The arena site is located between the Northern Shops and the Lagoon.

 

[DocHolliday]

- The ground is contaminated.

- We all know the ground is contaminated

-All the contaminants have been sitting in the ground effecting who knows what in the downtown and surrounding areas for all these years.

-Doing nothing will continue to let all the contaminants sit and fester and seep.

- I don't care if it takes all 1.2 billion of the tax to clean the ground and build the arena. It would be better than letting all the contaminants continue to stay in the ground.

- Have you hugged a tree today GreenKing? If not you should go do so.​

 

[kennadog]

I'd rather they finish the clean-up work so the area can be developed. If it just can't be cleaned up, an arena can be built elsewhere. That's not my preference for Sacramento. The fact is, if an arena can't be built there, nothing can be built there. That would be sad for the city I love.

 

[quick dog]

Millions of dollars have been spent cleaning up that RR site for more than a decade, probably two decades. The fact is that building huge concrete structures over questionable industrial land is a pretty good option for final remediation. If the Regional Water Quality Control Board (RWQCB) is satisfield that ground water contaminants are being extracted or contained at the site, then the other potential contamination issues are pretty marginal at this stage.

By the way, there are other sources of ground water contamination in the general area, including chemicals and solvents from the old State Printer's building. State sources of contamination sometimes get overlooked by the RWQCB, and I guess no one is talking about industrial chemical contaminants in the ARCO Arena area.

If the City builds an arena, a large parking garage, and other large concrete structures at the old Sacramenti SPRR yard, no one will be at risk from residual chemical contaminants in the ground. To imply that citizens and fans will be at risk here is just a worn-out environmental obstructionist tactic.

 

[1kingzfan]

The fact is that building huge concrete structures over questionable industrial land is a pretty good option for final remediation.

If the City builds an arena, a large parking garage, and other large concrete structures at the old Sacramento SPRR yard, no one will be at risk from residual chemical contaminants in the ground. To imply that citizens and fans will be at risk here is just a worn-out environmental obstructionist tactic.

Actually, QuickDog, the links posted above for the two Railyard sub-sites in play, the Northern Shops and Lagoon, indicate that the final remedial action plans call for excavation and removal of soils with off-site treatment in both areas. The projected removal volumes are 180,000 cubic yards at the NS sub-site and 120,000 cubic yards at the Lagoon sub-site. Deed restrictions and surface capping were earlier considered but were later rejected.

Therefore, and I know you know this business very well too, I see the residual public risks as minimal to none from occupying the site with paving, a parking garage, and an arena building. The surface and near-surface contamination sources will have been removed by the time construction begins. The construction worker exposure scenario probably drove the risk evaluation for cleanup alternatives.

Naturally, area groundwater has been affected at depth, and so active remediation will continue to claen up the water and control the spread of the contaminant plume, likely to go on for many years with zero public health affects for arena goers.

I'm just not sure if the DTSC website info is up to date, so when I get a chance, I'll try to find out if those removal projects at the key two sub-sites have actually reached near starting, are completed, or are at something in between.

 

[kennadog]

Well, I haven't seen GreenKing respond to any of the factual information. So I take it as somebody whose against the arena and using environmental scare tactics to oppose it. In my experience, this is a very common anti-project ploy.

 

[Kingzrool]

- -All the contaminants have been sitting in the ground effecting who knows what in the downtown and surrounding areas for all these years.

-Doing nothing will continue to let all the contaminants sit and fester and seep.​

​

Any real "environmentalist" would be tickled pink to see a cleanup of this level happen, no matter who foots the bill (but especially if it is a big corporation). Obviously work is being done, but a major financial motivator would certainly speed up the process - tell me again how this is bad???

 

[BigWaxer]

So I take it as somebody whose against the arena and using environmental scare tactics to oppose it. In my experience, this is a very common anti-project ploy

Well to be honest Kenna it's also a very PRO tactic... I have heard some of the same on the pro side..."sacto will be back to a cowtown without the arena"

Just being fair... it happens on both sides of any issue.

 

[Warhawk]

Well to be honest Kenna it's also a very PRO tactic... I have heard some of the same on the pro side..."sacto will be back to a cowtown without the arena"

Just being fair... it happens on both sides of any issue.

Uh, saying Sac will be a cow-town again without an arena isn't an "environmental scare tactic". An exaggeration, perhaps, but it's hard to wave the scepter of "environmental unfrienliness" to make a project move forward.

 

[kennadog]

Well to be honest Kenna it's also a very PRO tactic... I have heard some of the same on the pro side..."sacto will be back to a cowtown without the arena"

Just being fair... it happens on both sides of any issue.

Not from me. I think Sacramento is still a cowtown with an arena. (In case the emoties don't work, I'd better say I'm joking.)

I know what you meant BW. Exaggeration can happen on both sides. What bothers me about raising the toxics issue, is that a lot of people, who don't know much about environmental clean-ups, just have a very negative, visceral reaction to it.

Probably the same people who use all kinds of "anti-bacterial" agents all over their houses. (joke)