Floyd Landis - Tour de France
- Thread starter kennadog
- Start date
I do keep remembering, too, the relentless attempts they made - without success - to tarnish Lance Armstrong. That, too, keeps me with a shred of hope that Landis DIDN'T succumb to whatever demons might possess him to do something to redeem himself. I WANT to believe that he did it with heart, determination and a will to win.
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Mike Eustice<sp?> The ESPN Cycling Analyst was on MSNBC, ESPN , and CNN yesterday saying he believes Landis is innocent. Said that hes known Floyd for over ten years and knows that Floyd doesnt believe in cheating and would never do it. He also said Floyd is asking for a DNA test to see if its really his.
They did make relentless attempts to catch Armstrong. It's just something that comes with winning an unheard of 7 Tour De France, which is probably the most grueling race in the world. Not only that, but he did it after recovering from Testicular cancer when he only was able to win 2 stages in the 3 previous Tour De France before he was diagnosed (and in his mid-20s where the human being is at its peak athletically). I mean, it's just natural for some to question his dominance when it's that significant, even more for someone who like him, wasn't even supposed to make it through his illness, let alone 7 Tour de France titles. But hey, the man came, saw, conquered and now he's one of the best feel-good stories in sports history. He won big, they doubted him, he proved everybody wrong that he wasn't cheating. Amazing career. Amazing champion etc...
Landis on the other hand got caught, plain and simple. I know you really don't want to believe that he cheated, but unfortunately the facts are there. And like you posted before, sure there are arguments by experts that are in favor of Landis, but like i said the proof is right there that he did cheat. Personnally, I don't know what to believe about this whole thing. I just find it weird that his first excuse was that he has naturally a very high testosterone level, and then a few days later claims that it was because of dehydration. Only to get burned by the scientists who did the analysis who proved that it came from an outside source. Chances are he did cheat but wasn't expecting to get caught. And like Pete Rose, Ben Johnson and others who got caught cheating for various reasons, he'll deny it for years to keep the small amount of dignity he has left. And maybe some day he'll write a book about it and get rich off of that.
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chaps - You're entitled to your opinion. Which is fine. And the facts aren't all in yet. I'm not going to find him guilty in my own mind until I've heard and read a little more about the circumstances.
You say "chances are he did cheat but wasn't expecting to get caught." Well that statement right there is one of the main reasons I'm not at all sure this is as cut and dried as they're trying to portray it. If you've heard enough to reach a conclusion, that's fine.
I haven't heard enough, so please forgive me if I don't join you on the apparent rush to judgment bandwagon.
You say "chances are he did cheat but wasn't expecting to get caught." Well that statement right there is one of the main reasons I'm not at all sure this is as cut and dried as they're trying to portray it. If you've heard enough to reach a conclusion, that's fine.
I haven't heard enough, so please forgive me if I don't join you on the apparent rush to judgment bandwagon.
If he's guilty, I wish he would just say so. If he's innocent, I hope they're able to prove it beyond any shadow of a doubt.
Either way, I doubt if I'll be watching cycling again...
Either way, I doubt if I'll be watching cycling again...
I hate to say it, but I think he's guilty at this point. If they prove otherwise, great, but I'm not holding my breathe. If the test was before the stage started as Big Waxer says, I can't see any reason for someone to taint the sample. Everyone considered him out of contention at that point.
On the other hand, I am dumbfounded that he would do it. Cycling has very rigorous testing, so why in the world do you risk losing everything?
As to why atheletes dope? That's not a murky issue. Winning, period. Which also means more money, prestige, etc. And unfortunately, there is a large segment of Americans who say "so what, its the athelete's choice."
My problem with that, is that if it were to be acceptable, then it really becomes not a choice. And I would want my child to think that he/she does have a shot at their athletic dreams based on natural ability and hard work and do not have to risk the ruination of their health.
Competitiveness is a good quality only to a point. Only to the point it helps a person succeed, not to the point they become a cheater and a liar.
If he is innocent, I hope Landis can prove it. Pereiro is a close friend of Landis. If Landis cheated a friend out of his moment of glory in Paris, that would be especially despicable.
On the other hand, I am dumbfounded that he would do it. Cycling has very rigorous testing, so why in the world do you risk losing everything?
As to why atheletes dope? That's not a murky issue. Winning, period. Which also means more money, prestige, etc. And unfortunately, there is a large segment of Americans who say "so what, its the athelete's choice."
My problem with that, is that if it were to be acceptable, then it really becomes not a choice. And I would want my child to think that he/she does have a shot at their athletic dreams based on natural ability and hard work and do not have to risk the ruination of their health.
Competitiveness is a good quality only to a point. Only to the point it helps a person succeed, not to the point they become a cheater and a liar.
If he is innocent, I hope Landis can prove it. Pereiro is a close friend of Landis. If Landis cheated a friend out of his moment of glory in Paris, that would be especially despicable.
The thing is, at this point, I dont see how anyone can find him not guilty. A prestigious race like the Tour de France, wouldnt strip, for the first time EVER in 100+ years of competition, their champion out of his crown based on speculations and allegations. IMO, they had to have something pretty damn solid against him to go as far as taking away his victory. The Tour would look like a bunch of fools if they stripped their champion of his title because he MAY of cheated, without having concrete proof.
Same can be said about his team that fired him when the news broke out. Why didn't they stick beside him if Landis is so innocent? If he did cheat than they did the right thing. If he didn't, talk about kicking a guy while he's down. Anyways VF, I think we're just gonna have to agree to disagree on this one.
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I'm with VF21 on this one, too.
I need to wait a little bit to see what more transpires.
To me, it's awfully fishy that Landis tested negative 8 times during the Tour and then failed a test after the critical stage that gave him back the lead. He knew there was heightened awareness of doping, as a result of Basso and the other guy getting tossed out before the TDF even began, and random testing throughout the race. He knew those tests included testosterone levels. One person reported that drug testing was done on each stage's top 3 and then 3 more selected at random each stage...not sure if that is so, but if it is, Landis knew that if he won that stage, he would be tested.
I have no doubt that the synthetic testosterone was in the samples, and the samples did indeed have the overall levels as advertised.
I have no doubt that the race governing body acted in good faith and fairness to make the decision they did, regardless if some folks think that they could be made to "look like a bunch of fools" if subsequent evidence proves otherwise.
I have no doubt that Phonak made the right judgment call to release Landis, a PR decision, rather than ride with him to the end. Phonak has no earthly idea if Landis is telling the truth, so the smart business decision, in their minds, was to cut him loose and then reinstate him if he is exonerated. Phonak sponsors cyclists to increase name recognition and to sell more of its products. No big whoops there.
And finally, given the maniacal passion Europeans have for the sport of cycling, I have no doubt that someone with the right connections and some big bucks could find a way to taint urine samples. There's much hatred with the US riders for dominating the Tour for so long. It's an intrusion on Euro-turf with many. There's big money here for companies that sponsor the winning rider, and big money for winning riders in endorsements to follow. Don't forget that Lance Armstrong was besieged by doping accusations emanating from France itself.
So, there's plenty of motive here, but was there opportunity and did someone actually act on this?
I find it very unlikely, like most here, that samples were either tainted without Landis' knowledge or that something "natural" could cause the unnatural testosterone levels revealed in the samples, but I feel that we need to give Floyd the benefit of the doubt for at least a little bit longer.
I need to wait a little bit to see what more transpires.
To me, it's awfully fishy that Landis tested negative 8 times during the Tour and then failed a test after the critical stage that gave him back the lead. He knew there was heightened awareness of doping, as a result of Basso and the other guy getting tossed out before the TDF even began, and random testing throughout the race. He knew those tests included testosterone levels. One person reported that drug testing was done on each stage's top 3 and then 3 more selected at random each stage...not sure if that is so, but if it is, Landis knew that if he won that stage, he would be tested.
I have no doubt that the synthetic testosterone was in the samples, and the samples did indeed have the overall levels as advertised.
I have no doubt that the race governing body acted in good faith and fairness to make the decision they did, regardless if some folks think that they could be made to "look like a bunch of fools" if subsequent evidence proves otherwise.
I have no doubt that Phonak made the right judgment call to release Landis, a PR decision, rather than ride with him to the end. Phonak has no earthly idea if Landis is telling the truth, so the smart business decision, in their minds, was to cut him loose and then reinstate him if he is exonerated. Phonak sponsors cyclists to increase name recognition and to sell more of its products. No big whoops there.
And finally, given the maniacal passion Europeans have for the sport of cycling, I have no doubt that someone with the right connections and some big bucks could find a way to taint urine samples. There's much hatred with the US riders for dominating the Tour for so long. It's an intrusion on Euro-turf with many. There's big money here for companies that sponsor the winning rider, and big money for winning riders in endorsements to follow. Don't forget that Lance Armstrong was besieged by doping accusations emanating from France itself.
So, there's plenty of motive here, but was there opportunity and did someone actually act on this?
I find it very unlikely, like most here, that samples were either tainted without Landis' knowledge or that something "natural" could cause the unnatural testosterone levels revealed in the samples, but I feel that we need to give Floyd the benefit of the doubt for at least a little bit longer.
Agree with 1kingzfan. There are a lot of people irate enough to the point of taking action about the fact that non-Europeans have won the Tour the past eight years straight. I would not put sabotage past them. Not saying that it is definitely sabotage, but that another investigation needs to be done to clear this up just in case.
Did you watch any stages, these 2? I don't think so
On the stage where he won the tour he was just incredible, too incredible.
Testosteron isn't EPO, which is along-time drug. Testosteron helps you for 1 or maybe 2 days. And Floyd needed this "push" after the stage where he lost over ! 10 minutes!
And any thoughts of a "sabotage" of Landis are just ridiculous. Doping tests are safe, especially in Europe
When I heard Ullrich doped, I couldn't believe , but he's also guilty
On the stage where he won the tour he was just incredible, too incredible.
Testosteron isn't EPO, which is along-time drug. Testosteron helps you for 1 or maybe 2 days. And Floyd needed this "push" after the stage where he lost over ! 10 minutes!
And any thoughts of a "sabotage" of Landis are just ridiculous. Doping tests are safe, especially in Europe
When I heard Ullrich doped, I couldn't believe , but he's also guilty
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For the Landis-is-Guilty Bandwagoners...
http://www.dailypeloton.com/displayarticle.asp?pk=9843
This opinion piece is kind of long, but if it doesn't place some doubt in your mind about the Landis doping results and accusations, I suspect even his proven innocence wouldn't do it for you either.
EDIT: I posted the entire article below. - VF21
http://www.dailypeloton.com/displayarticle.asp?pk=9843
This opinion piece is kind of long, but if it doesn't place some doubt in your mind about the Landis doping results and accusations, I suspect even his proven innocence wouldn't do it for you either.
EDIT: I posted the entire article below. - VF21
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I got up early and watched BOTH Stages 16 and 17 live.
Now ask yourself why athletes, and entire teams, can play like madmen one night and totally suck the next. Have you watched the Kings over the last couple of years?
Read the opinion piece I just posted above this one and see if it changes your opinion in any way.
Now ask yourself why athletes, and entire teams, can play like madmen one night and totally suck the next. Have you watched the Kings over the last couple of years?
Read the opinion piece I just posted above this one and see if it changes your opinion in any way.
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From Pro Cycling News - about doping
1kingzfan posted a link to this article, but it's buried pretty deep in the Landis thread. I thought it was excellent, and decided I'd put it in its own thread for people to read:
http://www.dailypeloton.com/displayarticle.asp?pk=9843
Can we handle the truth? We are our own worst enemy.
By Guest Contributor - Date: 7/29/2006
This is an open letter of my opinion on the subject of cheating, the constant trampling and indecent and incorrect treatment of our athletes, the realities of the Anti-Doping Agencies, and a call to action. - Ray Cipollini
This is an open letter of my opinion on the subject of cheating, the constant trampling and indecent and incorrect treatment of our athletes, the realities of the Anti-Doping Agencies, and a call to action.
This is just a letter to all, based on my own personal observations and has absolutely NO bearing on my associations with ANY of the numerous organizations or groups to which I belong, or any other individual. I have been involved in amateur and professional cycling for 30 years as a licensed competitor, official, coach, manager, and babysitter/psychologist/bike washer.
There are cheaters in cycling. I’ve said it, and now can never take it back. Every single sport in the world has cheaters, just as every single business or social group has cheaters. Obviously the fight against cheating with drugs in sport will continue, but we can always do more.
However, we have a unique problem within our sport that needs attention as well. We need to stop attacking our own, until we know for a fact that they have cheated. It’s very easy for the media and the bureaucrats to come out with strong statements based on very little fact, when they see that we are doing it to ourselves! Even a murderer is considered an “alleged” murderer until he has been convicted. Perhaps we should withhold judgment until we know what the facts are. We have brought this upon ourselves, and we need to change our mindset. Just because we lost last week’s Cat. 3 parking-lot criterium, it doesn’t mean that the guy that won has a better doctor, pharmacist, or faith healer. Maybe, he’s just better.
We all (fans, participants, sponsors, administrators, officials) want clean and fair competition and a level playing field. Yet, why are we (cycling) the only sport that attacks itself when an athlete is “presumed” to be caught cheating? Why is it that at the first sign of “doping” many so-called cycling fans, participants and officials jump on the headline bandwagon and begin to deride the “accused”, as well as our sport?
I have seen friends of jailed murderers defending that murderer, yet I can hardly find a cyclist that has faith in the word of an accused doper, BEFORE ALL OF THE FACTS ARE EVEN KNOWN. It disgusts me when I read about cycling or ADA leaders making statements regarding the damage caused by a supposed “positive” test, and cycling fans becoming outraged by the latest round of "cheating." The real outrage is that we, as a sport, have allowed this to happen. The real outrage is the suspicion that is endemic to our sport, based on headlines and sometimes little fact. Outrage toward a convicted cheater is completely appropriate, outrage based on an inflammatory disclosure by a testing lab or ADA is not appropriate.
I will buy a steak dinner (or if a vegan, a dinner of their choice) to the first person that can tell me of another Olympic or Professional sport that requires its athletes and teams to:
a) Submit “whereabouts forms” to their ADA that details their physical location for each day of the year so that the surprise testers can find them (forms are usually required 30 days in advance!).
b) Submit to random and unannounced blood tests at 6:00am on the day of important competitions, in addition to all of the usual urine tests.
c) Require their employer/team to obtain periodic (minimum of 4x/year) comprehensive blood and urine tests to establish base-line values of blood, liver, and other metabolic functions. Any test that shows an anomaly is followed up with repeat tests and additional exams. At least 50% of these tests have to be performed at a UCI recognized lab.
d) Suspend the athlete from competition based on a preliminary analysis or screening, prior to any definitive findings. If a professional, the athlete is also suspended without pay from his/her team and the media is notified.
e) Damage or destroy the athlete’s (and his/her team) reputation and economic viability based solely on ACCUSATIONS by WADA or a public agency. There is currently NO recourse for economic damage caused by knee-jerk reactions to the disclosure of private and pre-mature accusations of potential cheating. (Do I even need to highlight the differences in “official legal proceedings” between different countries?)
f) Force the employer/team to disclose private and personal medical information about an athlete all in the “cause” for fair play. What would happen if YOUR employer did that?
g) Allow external forces (public authorities) to determine which athletes and teams are allowed to compete in world-class competitions. A mere accusation is enough to keep riders from Pro Tour competition.
There is a lot of mis-information and ignorance of anti-doping processes and procedures within the cycling community. The existence of an abnormal “A” sample is only the beginning of the process, and is certainly not definitive. How many of us watch the counters on a gas pump to see how much gasoline we put in our tank? It is the same as waiting for a “B” sample to be analyzed (the A and B samples should be identical, as the initial bottle of urine is split into the 2 samples).
We already know that the gas gauge reads “E” when we pull up to the pump, but we watch the counters anyway, just to be sure of our initial observations. There are many, things that can affect a T/E ratio, and an elevated T/E is only an indication that there are more definitive tests that need to be performed. I have seen a T/E ratio of in excess of 20:1 with the Testosterone level unchanged from previous and later blood tests, with no exogenous testosterone or banned substances found.
This screening test was considered for removal about 6 years ago, as it doesn’t actually identify cheating, only that cheating might have occurred. It is the same as a high hematocrit level; without additional analysis and follow-up procedures, the test is essentially meaningless (with the exception that the athlete can be suspended for 2 years anyway). After a finding of a positive “B” sample, the case goes to an “independent expert tribunal” (the athlete is not invited to this party, but can send a letter!) that is appointed by and paid for by the ADA, to determine if a doping violation has taken place. Can we say “conflict of interest?”
Cyclists, just as any other dedicated athlete, eats, sleeps and breathes with the objective of maximizing their capabilities and physical abilities. The only thing that separates a “cheater” from a “non-cheater” is the existence of the WADA list. I suspect that most athletes, regardless of their chosen sport/profession, will do just about anything to improve their performance using whatever methods or foods/drinks/supplements that ARE NOT found on the banned list, and are within their moral and ethical conscience.
Let’s not forget that the Olympic motto is Citius, Altius, Fortius. Why does the cycling community regard cyclists as somehow circumventing the system, when our own athletes are the same as any other athlete? There will always be cheaters in sports, business, and life. We shouldn’t assume the worst of an individual just because of the sport they have chosen to pursue. If an ADA were to ban high-altitude tents next Friday, does that make all of the owners/users of these tents cheaters? Who, outside of the ADA, determines the ethics and ramifications of such a decision?
Why do we have UNCONDITIONAL faith in the ADA, even when there is no way to verify their usually inflammatory and inaccurate statements?
Why is it that I have never seen an ADA or NGB or the media retract an accusation when the athlete was subsequently exonerated?
The ADAs define their own rules, interpret their own rules, create their own science, hide behind closed doors, use “independent experts” that are appointed by and paid for by the ADA, hold the athletes to different standards than they themselves are willing to accept, and have to answer to no one. They would like the general public to believe that they are infallible, and that the athlete has specific rights to mount a defense to a positive test. The fact is that the athlete has virtually no rights, and instead is forced to fight using technicalities in the process, and the ADA (and the ADA approved labs) has an agenda (and the resources) that an individual athlete cannot reasonably defend against. The athlete cannot argue against the positive test result, only the procedures surrounding the test....the ADA has already met their burden of proof, and guess what, you are already guilty.
I believe that the current anti-doping process is completely ***-backwards and tramples on the basic rights of the athletes, for the common good. Although I believe that there MUST be a certain amount of stealth and randomness involved in the process of detecting and identifying the cheaters; the athlete should not be convicted and slaughtered in the media without a minimal amount of consideration and due process.
There should not be ANY public disclosure until a definitive finding is made, and the ADAs MUST be made to allow an open door for their “tribunal” hearings and allow for the presentation of evidence of extenuating circumstances. Currently, the case has to go before an arbitration board (the 4th step in the process) before the athlete’s voice is even heard.
I can relate to you many stories, facts and documents that I have accumulated over the years regarding this topic, some of which are downright frightening. I know a lot more about the health and personal medical histories of athletes, than I care to know about. I also have learned more about the rules, regulations, and methods of the ADAs than I ever wanted to know. I have in my files, evidence of potentially purposeful screwups or collusion by USADA and the Los Angeles lab, which caused an athlete to be suspended.
The same ADA has also suspended an athlete for a “positive” test for the metabolite of a specifically ALLOWABLE allergy medication. Incidentally, the ONLY athlete in the world to be sanctioned for this offense! We also know, through the media, of several athletes that have admitted cheating, even though they were tested many times over many years, and found to be “clean.” To believe that their (the ADAs) s*it doesn’t stink, is to have one’s head buried in the sand. They make mistakes just like everyone else.
It is a fact that the athlete is held to a standard of “strict liability”, in that the athlete is responsible for everything that enters his/her body. Have any of you ever seen a cyclist eat? Factor in that they are in a different hotel each night, possibly a different country, usually fighting off a cold or allergy, and traveling through any number of airports and race locations. It is impossible to know the source of everything that they eat, yet the ADAs stand (hide) behind this standard. When I’ve asked for a list of the over-the-counter supplements that will produce a positive test result, I always receive the same answer: it’s too difficult and expensive to make a list. So the athlete beware!
cont.
1kingzfan posted a link to this article, but it's buried pretty deep in the Landis thread. I thought it was excellent, and decided I'd put it in its own thread for people to read:
http://www.dailypeloton.com/displayarticle.asp?pk=9843
Can we handle the truth? We are our own worst enemy.
By Guest Contributor - Date: 7/29/2006
This is an open letter of my opinion on the subject of cheating, the constant trampling and indecent and incorrect treatment of our athletes, the realities of the Anti-Doping Agencies, and a call to action. - Ray Cipollini
This is an open letter of my opinion on the subject of cheating, the constant trampling and indecent and incorrect treatment of our athletes, the realities of the Anti-Doping Agencies, and a call to action.
This is just a letter to all, based on my own personal observations and has absolutely NO bearing on my associations with ANY of the numerous organizations or groups to which I belong, or any other individual. I have been involved in amateur and professional cycling for 30 years as a licensed competitor, official, coach, manager, and babysitter/psychologist/bike washer.
There are cheaters in cycling. I’ve said it, and now can never take it back. Every single sport in the world has cheaters, just as every single business or social group has cheaters. Obviously the fight against cheating with drugs in sport will continue, but we can always do more.
However, we have a unique problem within our sport that needs attention as well. We need to stop attacking our own, until we know for a fact that they have cheated. It’s very easy for the media and the bureaucrats to come out with strong statements based on very little fact, when they see that we are doing it to ourselves! Even a murderer is considered an “alleged” murderer until he has been convicted. Perhaps we should withhold judgment until we know what the facts are. We have brought this upon ourselves, and we need to change our mindset. Just because we lost last week’s Cat. 3 parking-lot criterium, it doesn’t mean that the guy that won has a better doctor, pharmacist, or faith healer. Maybe, he’s just better.
We all (fans, participants, sponsors, administrators, officials) want clean and fair competition and a level playing field. Yet, why are we (cycling) the only sport that attacks itself when an athlete is “presumed” to be caught cheating? Why is it that at the first sign of “doping” many so-called cycling fans, participants and officials jump on the headline bandwagon and begin to deride the “accused”, as well as our sport?
I have seen friends of jailed murderers defending that murderer, yet I can hardly find a cyclist that has faith in the word of an accused doper, BEFORE ALL OF THE FACTS ARE EVEN KNOWN. It disgusts me when I read about cycling or ADA leaders making statements regarding the damage caused by a supposed “positive” test, and cycling fans becoming outraged by the latest round of "cheating." The real outrage is that we, as a sport, have allowed this to happen. The real outrage is the suspicion that is endemic to our sport, based on headlines and sometimes little fact. Outrage toward a convicted cheater is completely appropriate, outrage based on an inflammatory disclosure by a testing lab or ADA is not appropriate.
I will buy a steak dinner (or if a vegan, a dinner of their choice) to the first person that can tell me of another Olympic or Professional sport that requires its athletes and teams to:
a) Submit “whereabouts forms” to their ADA that details their physical location for each day of the year so that the surprise testers can find them (forms are usually required 30 days in advance!).
b) Submit to random and unannounced blood tests at 6:00am on the day of important competitions, in addition to all of the usual urine tests.
c) Require their employer/team to obtain periodic (minimum of 4x/year) comprehensive blood and urine tests to establish base-line values of blood, liver, and other metabolic functions. Any test that shows an anomaly is followed up with repeat tests and additional exams. At least 50% of these tests have to be performed at a UCI recognized lab.
d) Suspend the athlete from competition based on a preliminary analysis or screening, prior to any definitive findings. If a professional, the athlete is also suspended without pay from his/her team and the media is notified.
e) Damage or destroy the athlete’s (and his/her team) reputation and economic viability based solely on ACCUSATIONS by WADA or a public agency. There is currently NO recourse for economic damage caused by knee-jerk reactions to the disclosure of private and pre-mature accusations of potential cheating. (Do I even need to highlight the differences in “official legal proceedings” between different countries?)
f) Force the employer/team to disclose private and personal medical information about an athlete all in the “cause” for fair play. What would happen if YOUR employer did that?
g) Allow external forces (public authorities) to determine which athletes and teams are allowed to compete in world-class competitions. A mere accusation is enough to keep riders from Pro Tour competition.
There is a lot of mis-information and ignorance of anti-doping processes and procedures within the cycling community. The existence of an abnormal “A” sample is only the beginning of the process, and is certainly not definitive. How many of us watch the counters on a gas pump to see how much gasoline we put in our tank? It is the same as waiting for a “B” sample to be analyzed (the A and B samples should be identical, as the initial bottle of urine is split into the 2 samples).
We already know that the gas gauge reads “E” when we pull up to the pump, but we watch the counters anyway, just to be sure of our initial observations. There are many, things that can affect a T/E ratio, and an elevated T/E is only an indication that there are more definitive tests that need to be performed. I have seen a T/E ratio of in excess of 20:1 with the Testosterone level unchanged from previous and later blood tests, with no exogenous testosterone or banned substances found.
This screening test was considered for removal about 6 years ago, as it doesn’t actually identify cheating, only that cheating might have occurred. It is the same as a high hematocrit level; without additional analysis and follow-up procedures, the test is essentially meaningless (with the exception that the athlete can be suspended for 2 years anyway). After a finding of a positive “B” sample, the case goes to an “independent expert tribunal” (the athlete is not invited to this party, but can send a letter!) that is appointed by and paid for by the ADA, to determine if a doping violation has taken place. Can we say “conflict of interest?”
Cyclists, just as any other dedicated athlete, eats, sleeps and breathes with the objective of maximizing their capabilities and physical abilities. The only thing that separates a “cheater” from a “non-cheater” is the existence of the WADA list. I suspect that most athletes, regardless of their chosen sport/profession, will do just about anything to improve their performance using whatever methods or foods/drinks/supplements that ARE NOT found on the banned list, and are within their moral and ethical conscience.
Let’s not forget that the Olympic motto is Citius, Altius, Fortius. Why does the cycling community regard cyclists as somehow circumventing the system, when our own athletes are the same as any other athlete? There will always be cheaters in sports, business, and life. We shouldn’t assume the worst of an individual just because of the sport they have chosen to pursue. If an ADA were to ban high-altitude tents next Friday, does that make all of the owners/users of these tents cheaters? Who, outside of the ADA, determines the ethics and ramifications of such a decision?
Why do we have UNCONDITIONAL faith in the ADA, even when there is no way to verify their usually inflammatory and inaccurate statements?
Why is it that I have never seen an ADA or NGB or the media retract an accusation when the athlete was subsequently exonerated?
The ADAs define their own rules, interpret their own rules, create their own science, hide behind closed doors, use “independent experts” that are appointed by and paid for by the ADA, hold the athletes to different standards than they themselves are willing to accept, and have to answer to no one. They would like the general public to believe that they are infallible, and that the athlete has specific rights to mount a defense to a positive test. The fact is that the athlete has virtually no rights, and instead is forced to fight using technicalities in the process, and the ADA (and the ADA approved labs) has an agenda (and the resources) that an individual athlete cannot reasonably defend against. The athlete cannot argue against the positive test result, only the procedures surrounding the test....the ADA has already met their burden of proof, and guess what, you are already guilty.
I believe that the current anti-doping process is completely ***-backwards and tramples on the basic rights of the athletes, for the common good. Although I believe that there MUST be a certain amount of stealth and randomness involved in the process of detecting and identifying the cheaters; the athlete should not be convicted and slaughtered in the media without a minimal amount of consideration and due process.
There should not be ANY public disclosure until a definitive finding is made, and the ADAs MUST be made to allow an open door for their “tribunal” hearings and allow for the presentation of evidence of extenuating circumstances. Currently, the case has to go before an arbitration board (the 4th step in the process) before the athlete’s voice is even heard.
I can relate to you many stories, facts and documents that I have accumulated over the years regarding this topic, some of which are downright frightening. I know a lot more about the health and personal medical histories of athletes, than I care to know about. I also have learned more about the rules, regulations, and methods of the ADAs than I ever wanted to know. I have in my files, evidence of potentially purposeful screwups or collusion by USADA and the Los Angeles lab, which caused an athlete to be suspended.
The same ADA has also suspended an athlete for a “positive” test for the metabolite of a specifically ALLOWABLE allergy medication. Incidentally, the ONLY athlete in the world to be sanctioned for this offense! We also know, through the media, of several athletes that have admitted cheating, even though they were tested many times over many years, and found to be “clean.” To believe that their (the ADAs) s*it doesn’t stink, is to have one’s head buried in the sand. They make mistakes just like everyone else.
It is a fact that the athlete is held to a standard of “strict liability”, in that the athlete is responsible for everything that enters his/her body. Have any of you ever seen a cyclist eat? Factor in that they are in a different hotel each night, possibly a different country, usually fighting off a cold or allergy, and traveling through any number of airports and race locations. It is impossible to know the source of everything that they eat, yet the ADAs stand (hide) behind this standard. When I’ve asked for a list of the over-the-counter supplements that will produce a positive test result, I always receive the same answer: it’s too difficult and expensive to make a list. So the athlete beware!
cont.
It’s also true that the ADAs hold the athletes to strict time-frames in which to make responses to accusations, while their own timelines are mere guidelines. This is why it takes such a long time to reach definitive decisions, while the athlete sits at home without a job, hoping and praying that the system is going to work. Unfortunately for many of them, they mistakenly believe that since they have done nothing wrong and have never taken a banned substance, the ADA will determine the truth and they will be cleared. Newsflash: they don’t care about the truth, only in sensational headlines about their effectiveness.
Here’s another goody. The ADAs want everyone to believe that all of the “accredited” labs follow the same procedures, and meet identical international standards. Why is it then that the “B” sample is always tested at the same laboratory that came up with the “abnormal” result with the “A” sample? They refuse to accept that there may be a problem with the lab (either equipment, testing materials, calibrations, personnel, etc.) and won’t allow the athlete to request that the confirmation test (“B”) be carried out in a supposedly identical laboratory. Perhaps I’m a bit paranoid, but the same result should be found in ANY of the accredited labs.
Meanwhile, there is little to no room for “questionable” test results or extenuating circumstances...it’s 2-years minimum for the first offense. An ADA leader stated in a VeloNews interview in December, 2004, that there are less severe sanctions available, and that he would consider extenuating circumstances, “If you have a deliberate, serious doping offense then yes, it’s two years. If it’s inadvertent, it can be cut in half and if there’s no fault whatsoever, it can be less than that... and if you’re captured and held down by a squad of Nazi frogmen and injected with something, there’s nothing.” Try to convince WADA that something like this actually happened....unless you have video of the frogmen without their masks, their names, a sample of the injection, and documents that prove the time & date of your abduction as well as attestation to a chain of custody for all of the items necessary to mount a defense.
Good luck. The mere fact that you have obtained a license in any Olympic sport (read the fine print next year), and an ADA has found a banned substance in your urine, means that you are guilty of a doping infraction. An athlete CANNOT present an argument that contains the words “no fault” or “inadvertent”, period.
I’m not here to defend the cheaters; they should all get thrown out of the sport!
My point is that the ADAs are acting as if they are completely infallible and have no baggage or agenda. They are also acting as policeman, prosecutor, judge, and executioner. In addition, they have the power of the press (they all have media relations departments) and virtually no external oversight. To me this a very dangerous situation, and will become more so as they can now sanction an athlete without direct evidence, and are doing so based on “statistical” and testimonial evidence.
This is similar to McCarthyism, or worse, the Salem Witch hunts. Remember them? That’s when a suspected Witch was held under water until she drowned, proving her innocence. If she floated, she was executed for being a Witch. The current trend of utilizing physiological parameters to declare a “positive” is especially troubling to me, as it suggests that everyone in the world responds identically to everyone else when competing, training, eating, sleeping, and stress levels. I’m not an expert in such things, but I don’t believe that everyone is the same, and I certainly don’t believe that the ADAs know everything about the biological universe. To have blind faith in the statements of the ADAs is downright moronic, and we should all be scared.
The perception within the sports world that cycling has a doping problem that is worse than any other sport, is due to our own ignorance, apathy and actions. We would not be a target (of negative attention) if we actually defended our sport with as much vigor as when we deride it. We have cheaters, just like all other sports. I highly doubt that we are better or worse than any other Olympic or Professional sport. Unfortunately, our openness and willingness to crucify our own athletes before we know all of the facts, helps propagate this perception.
It is interesting to me that 5 of the riders implicated in the “Operation Puerto” affair in Spain have been officially exonerated by the judge, according to several online news sources. Yet, all of the media reports I’ve read in the past few days continue to reference the 9 riders and a team that were thrown off of the Tour....with absolutely NO mention of the fact that it was subsequently determined to be a MISTAKE. How about news of the 150 or so non-cyclists implicated in this affair? Why have we received ALL of the attention? Because we have allowed it for so long that it just seems like more of the same, to the mainstream media and the general public.
I’d like to see the cycling community come together and take action on 2 fronts:
1) We must defend our sport with the same vigor as those that want to attack it with selective “facts” and headlines The writers of the “news” stories are going to focus on the path of least resistance...currently it is cycling. If we remain silent, or worse, critical of our own sport, this is where the headlines will be focused.
For every story published, or water-cooler conversation that touches on a doping violation, we need to DEMAND equal space and EDUCATE that person about all of the athletes that have been harmed by false accusations, as well as the fact that no other sport takes the lead in the fight against cheating. In fact, no other sport (to my knowledge) has the transparency that we have afforded the media, and the public.
We are our own worst enemy when it comes to systemic suspicion of ALL of our athletes. This is a mindset that has to change, and we owe it to ourselves to do it. I applaud the statements recently made by the T-Mobile Company, as they believe that we all must step up to make a difference. If we know for a fact that an athlete is a cheater, then we need to throw the bum out. But, until a case has run its course, none of us will know all of the facts. Its up to us to be sure that we don’t jump to a conclusion prematurely, and that we demand equal treatment of an athlete that has been exonerated, by the media.
I challenge everyone to write or call the heads of their favorite federations and their favorite news writer (or least favorite), to set the record straight when appropriate. If we only see the information propagated by the ADAs, we’ll never learn the truth and neither will the fans.
The vast majority of our athletes are honest, extremely hard-working, the finest athletic specimens on the planet, and they are required to compete in the harshest conditions in the most difficult sport in the world. If we don’t offer them the respect that they deserve, then who will? We must educate and defend, until we know for certain that an athlete has cheated.
2) As a part of our action, we must also know unequivocally who is a cheater and who is not. It is unacceptable that some are characterized as cheats when it is obvious that they are not, just as it is unacceptable that the ADAs cannot find reliable testing and fact-finding methods that are 100% reliable. If we (cycling) are going to tolerate the media and the public having access to “adverse” findings, then the ADAs better be damn well sure that they have found a cheater. Nor should we tolerate a process that offers the athlete no recourse when he/she has been wronged (the Astana-Wurth team should have been allowed in the Tour based on recent news reports. I also offer a recent Giro that had its Pink Jersey banned mid-race for a pre-existing infraction, that resulted in the loss of a start in the Tour as well as economic loss to the rider and his teammates.
After the rider was exonerated, no one even murmured an apology!). Where was the outrage? If an ADA or accredited laboratory states that they have the science to tell the difference between 2 types of blood cells, then they better be prepared to determine if a high T/E ratio was caused by exogenous testosterone or some other external factor, BEFORE they go public.
Their proceedings must also be more expedient and transparent. If their decisions are based on sound scientific testing, and they have allowed the athlete to attend their proceedings and rebut their findings, then they should not be afraid to allow inspection by external organizations. In addition, if the athlete is to be suspended from competition during the proceedings, it is the athlete that should determine the speed of the process. Unless, of course, the ADA is prepared to compensate all parties involved if no cheating is found.
It is time for us to take back our sport from the cheaters, and those that wish to falsely characterize all of our athletes as cheaters.
To me its pretty simple; I want to know with 100% certainty that cheating has occurred, I want to know about it quickly, and I want to know that the ADA is 100% interested in determining the truth, not creating a sensational headline. Until we reach this goal, we are at the mercy of the tide of public opinion, which is based solely on the effectiveness of the ADA’s spin masters.
Currently, there is too much doubt in the system to determine what has actually occurred, and this is unacceptable. There is also too much premature disclosure of findings, and serves no purpose but to inflame and create false impressions. Too often I see athletes that are, in my opinion, sanctioned needlessly, and at the same time I see athletes that I had a lot of respect for, admit that they cheated or caught a second time. Since no one except the athlete knows for certain, the truth of the scope of cheating is probably somewhere in the middle. Throughout all of it however, the innocent are cast with the same brush stroke as the guilty. Unfortunately, it’s the innocent that are hurt by it, not the cheaters, since obviously they don't care.
Personally, I would like to see harsher penalties for drug cheats. But, I would also like to see a “conviction” that leaves no doubts, and is open to critical review. We need to have complete fairness in the process, and that includes when and how the media and public receives this information. If we continue to allow ourselves to be persecuted by inflammatory statements, and not complete facts, it is a disservice to all who enjoy cycling as the beautiful sport that it is.
Ray Cipollini
I want to state for the record that I concur with what Ray Cippollini has written. It's time for a change. - Vaughn Trevi Publisher www.dailypeloton.com Thanks to Ray Cippolini Navigators Insurance Pro Cycling Team.
Here’s another goody. The ADAs want everyone to believe that all of the “accredited” labs follow the same procedures, and meet identical international standards. Why is it then that the “B” sample is always tested at the same laboratory that came up with the “abnormal” result with the “A” sample? They refuse to accept that there may be a problem with the lab (either equipment, testing materials, calibrations, personnel, etc.) and won’t allow the athlete to request that the confirmation test (“B”) be carried out in a supposedly identical laboratory. Perhaps I’m a bit paranoid, but the same result should be found in ANY of the accredited labs.
Meanwhile, there is little to no room for “questionable” test results or extenuating circumstances...it’s 2-years minimum for the first offense. An ADA leader stated in a VeloNews interview in December, 2004, that there are less severe sanctions available, and that he would consider extenuating circumstances, “If you have a deliberate, serious doping offense then yes, it’s two years. If it’s inadvertent, it can be cut in half and if there’s no fault whatsoever, it can be less than that... and if you’re captured and held down by a squad of Nazi frogmen and injected with something, there’s nothing.” Try to convince WADA that something like this actually happened....unless you have video of the frogmen without their masks, their names, a sample of the injection, and documents that prove the time & date of your abduction as well as attestation to a chain of custody for all of the items necessary to mount a defense.
Good luck. The mere fact that you have obtained a license in any Olympic sport (read the fine print next year), and an ADA has found a banned substance in your urine, means that you are guilty of a doping infraction. An athlete CANNOT present an argument that contains the words “no fault” or “inadvertent”, period.
I’m not here to defend the cheaters; they should all get thrown out of the sport!
My point is that the ADAs are acting as if they are completely infallible and have no baggage or agenda. They are also acting as policeman, prosecutor, judge, and executioner. In addition, they have the power of the press (they all have media relations departments) and virtually no external oversight. To me this a very dangerous situation, and will become more so as they can now sanction an athlete without direct evidence, and are doing so based on “statistical” and testimonial evidence.
This is similar to McCarthyism, or worse, the Salem Witch hunts. Remember them? That’s when a suspected Witch was held under water until she drowned, proving her innocence. If she floated, she was executed for being a Witch. The current trend of utilizing physiological parameters to declare a “positive” is especially troubling to me, as it suggests that everyone in the world responds identically to everyone else when competing, training, eating, sleeping, and stress levels. I’m not an expert in such things, but I don’t believe that everyone is the same, and I certainly don’t believe that the ADAs know everything about the biological universe. To have blind faith in the statements of the ADAs is downright moronic, and we should all be scared.
The perception within the sports world that cycling has a doping problem that is worse than any other sport, is due to our own ignorance, apathy and actions. We would not be a target (of negative attention) if we actually defended our sport with as much vigor as when we deride it. We have cheaters, just like all other sports. I highly doubt that we are better or worse than any other Olympic or Professional sport. Unfortunately, our openness and willingness to crucify our own athletes before we know all of the facts, helps propagate this perception.
It is interesting to me that 5 of the riders implicated in the “Operation Puerto” affair in Spain have been officially exonerated by the judge, according to several online news sources. Yet, all of the media reports I’ve read in the past few days continue to reference the 9 riders and a team that were thrown off of the Tour....with absolutely NO mention of the fact that it was subsequently determined to be a MISTAKE. How about news of the 150 or so non-cyclists implicated in this affair? Why have we received ALL of the attention? Because we have allowed it for so long that it just seems like more of the same, to the mainstream media and the general public.
I’d like to see the cycling community come together and take action on 2 fronts:
1) We must defend our sport with the same vigor as those that want to attack it with selective “facts” and headlines The writers of the “news” stories are going to focus on the path of least resistance...currently it is cycling. If we remain silent, or worse, critical of our own sport, this is where the headlines will be focused.
For every story published, or water-cooler conversation that touches on a doping violation, we need to DEMAND equal space and EDUCATE that person about all of the athletes that have been harmed by false accusations, as well as the fact that no other sport takes the lead in the fight against cheating. In fact, no other sport (to my knowledge) has the transparency that we have afforded the media, and the public.
We are our own worst enemy when it comes to systemic suspicion of ALL of our athletes. This is a mindset that has to change, and we owe it to ourselves to do it. I applaud the statements recently made by the T-Mobile Company, as they believe that we all must step up to make a difference. If we know for a fact that an athlete is a cheater, then we need to throw the bum out. But, until a case has run its course, none of us will know all of the facts. Its up to us to be sure that we don’t jump to a conclusion prematurely, and that we demand equal treatment of an athlete that has been exonerated, by the media.
I challenge everyone to write or call the heads of their favorite federations and their favorite news writer (or least favorite), to set the record straight when appropriate. If we only see the information propagated by the ADAs, we’ll never learn the truth and neither will the fans.
The vast majority of our athletes are honest, extremely hard-working, the finest athletic specimens on the planet, and they are required to compete in the harshest conditions in the most difficult sport in the world. If we don’t offer them the respect that they deserve, then who will? We must educate and defend, until we know for certain that an athlete has cheated.
2) As a part of our action, we must also know unequivocally who is a cheater and who is not. It is unacceptable that some are characterized as cheats when it is obvious that they are not, just as it is unacceptable that the ADAs cannot find reliable testing and fact-finding methods that are 100% reliable. If we (cycling) are going to tolerate the media and the public having access to “adverse” findings, then the ADAs better be damn well sure that they have found a cheater. Nor should we tolerate a process that offers the athlete no recourse when he/she has been wronged (the Astana-Wurth team should have been allowed in the Tour based on recent news reports. I also offer a recent Giro that had its Pink Jersey banned mid-race for a pre-existing infraction, that resulted in the loss of a start in the Tour as well as economic loss to the rider and his teammates.
After the rider was exonerated, no one even murmured an apology!). Where was the outrage? If an ADA or accredited laboratory states that they have the science to tell the difference between 2 types of blood cells, then they better be prepared to determine if a high T/E ratio was caused by exogenous testosterone or some other external factor, BEFORE they go public.
Their proceedings must also be more expedient and transparent. If their decisions are based on sound scientific testing, and they have allowed the athlete to attend their proceedings and rebut their findings, then they should not be afraid to allow inspection by external organizations. In addition, if the athlete is to be suspended from competition during the proceedings, it is the athlete that should determine the speed of the process. Unless, of course, the ADA is prepared to compensate all parties involved if no cheating is found.
It is time for us to take back our sport from the cheaters, and those that wish to falsely characterize all of our athletes as cheaters.
To me its pretty simple; I want to know with 100% certainty that cheating has occurred, I want to know about it quickly, and I want to know that the ADA is 100% interested in determining the truth, not creating a sensational headline. Until we reach this goal, we are at the mercy of the tide of public opinion, which is based solely on the effectiveness of the ADA’s spin masters.
Currently, there is too much doubt in the system to determine what has actually occurred, and this is unacceptable. There is also too much premature disclosure of findings, and serves no purpose but to inflame and create false impressions. Too often I see athletes that are, in my opinion, sanctioned needlessly, and at the same time I see athletes that I had a lot of respect for, admit that they cheated or caught a second time. Since no one except the athlete knows for certain, the truth of the scope of cheating is probably somewhere in the middle. Throughout all of it however, the innocent are cast with the same brush stroke as the guilty. Unfortunately, it’s the innocent that are hurt by it, not the cheaters, since obviously they don't care.
Personally, I would like to see harsher penalties for drug cheats. But, I would also like to see a “conviction” that leaves no doubts, and is open to critical review. We need to have complete fairness in the process, and that includes when and how the media and public receives this information. If we continue to allow ourselves to be persecuted by inflammatory statements, and not complete facts, it is a disservice to all who enjoy cycling as the beautiful sport that it is.
Ray Cipollini
I want to state for the record that I concur with what Ray Cippollini has written. It's time for a change. - Vaughn Trevi Publisher www.dailypeloton.com Thanks to Ray Cippolini Navigators Insurance Pro Cycling Team.
Sorry, that piece really doesn't do much for me. The writer wants to know with 100% certainty that cheating has occurred. That is never going to happen. Even murderers are sent to the electric chair on less than 100% certainty.
The interesting question is really how certain should the sport be about a doping violation before taking action. These things are difficult to test accurately, but when doping is so prevalent in sport you have to start considering lessening the burden of proof. Where that line should be drawn is up for debate. I'm not sure where I would draw it, but it certainly would not be at 100% certainty.
In the case of Landis, he clearly failed the test and admitted doing so. If he didn't do anything wrong, then of course this sucks for him, but there have been a lot of athletes who have been convicted in the court of public opinion on far less evidence. At some point there probably has been or will be an innocent person wrongly accused, but I think that it is unlikely to happen often.
I go through the same process every time something like this occurs, whether it is Landis or Armstrong, Bonds or McGwire, Jones or Gaitlin, or anybody else. I hope that they are not guilty. I watch as the circumstantial (or concrete) evidence builds. Eventually, I succumb to the fact that they probably are and move on. It sucks but that's the way sports are right now.
The interesting question is really how certain should the sport be about a doping violation before taking action. These things are difficult to test accurately, but when doping is so prevalent in sport you have to start considering lessening the burden of proof. Where that line should be drawn is up for debate. I'm not sure where I would draw it, but it certainly would not be at 100% certainty.
In the case of Landis, he clearly failed the test and admitted doing so. If he didn't do anything wrong, then of course this sucks for him, but there have been a lot of athletes who have been convicted in the court of public opinion on far less evidence. At some point there probably has been or will be an innocent person wrongly accused, but I think that it is unlikely to happen often.
I go through the same process every time something like this occurs, whether it is Landis or Armstrong, Bonds or McGwire, Jones or Gaitlin, or anybody else. I hope that they are not guilty. I watch as the circumstantial (or concrete) evidence builds. Eventually, I succumb to the fact that they probably are and move on. It sucks but that's the way sports are right now.
I don't think that's the question in this thread.
I have no problem with the actions taken by the cycling governing body and Phonak. HOWEVER, there are avenues of appeal established for Landis, and that piece I posted from a knowledgeable pro cyclist calls a ton of things into question. Not to mention the 8 negative screenings Landis had earlier in the Tour.
Therefore, it's my opinion that, even though it looks bad now, I will wait and see what else turns up, rather than jump on the popular opinion bandwagon and convict Landis now.
I have no problem with the actions taken by the cycling governing body and Phonak. HOWEVER, there are avenues of appeal established for Landis, and that piece I posted from a knowledgeable pro cyclist calls a ton of things into question. Not to mention the 8 negative screenings Landis had earlier in the Tour.
Therefore, it's my opinion that, even though it looks bad now, I will wait and see what else turns up, rather than jump on the popular opinion bandwagon and convict Landis now.
It's absolutely the question of this thread, along with asking the same thing about each fan and where his or her individual line is. Obviously we wait and see where the appeals go before we truly say that someone is guilty or innocent, but even then it is unlikely that we as observers will be given such truth. So what can we do but make an educated guess. If one prefers to lean towards innocence in these situations, then fine. If another is tired of all of these doping allegations and is resigned to the likelihood of guilt, then that should also be fine.
I personally don't fall under either of those categories. As far as the evidence in this case, I don't know much about steroids, testosterone versus epitestosterone, or the testing that goes on, but my logic tells me it is much more likely Landis is guilty than innocent.
If having eight negative screenings prior to the positive one was any indication of the accuracy of the positive test, why would they even give the ninth test? It seems to me that it is more likely that it is possible to have eight negatives followed by a positive if an athlete is doping. If it is naturally possible to have such a large imbalance of testosterone to epistestosterone, my logic tells me that more effort would have been made to change the test to reduce false negatives.
Obviously this doesn't prove 100% that Landis is guilty, it just makes more sense to me. If and when more evidence turns up, I'll add it to everything else I've read and alter my opinion as necessary.
I personally don't fall under either of those categories. As far as the evidence in this case, I don't know much about steroids, testosterone versus epitestosterone, or the testing that goes on, but my logic tells me it is much more likely Landis is guilty than innocent.
If having eight negative screenings prior to the positive one was any indication of the accuracy of the positive test, why would they even give the ninth test? It seems to me that it is more likely that it is possible to have eight negatives followed by a positive if an athlete is doping. If it is naturally possible to have such a large imbalance of testosterone to epistestosterone, my logic tells me that more effort would have been made to change the test to reduce false negatives.
Obviously this doesn't prove 100% that Landis is guilty, it just makes more sense to me. If and when more evidence turns up, I'll add it to everything else I've read and alter my opinion as necessary.
I am with you all the way. But I am not going to pay any attention. These things greatly annoy me. The fact that he is from my country, means nothing to me! Whoever threw out the Death Penalty comparison is correct except, keep in mind that noone actually dies over this. IMO, there should be no question that he cheated rather that no question that he did not.
"The truth can always be questioned" - KRS-One.
"The truth can always be questioned" - KRS-One.
I agree with you. My opinion is that to state "Landis is obviously guilty" (which I know YOU didn't do) is a pre-emptive strike.
I don't believe that the multiple screenings over the course of the race have to do with accuracy or reliability of the tests. It's to prevent doping that is initiated after the race begins.
And that's how I feel..at least at this early juncture of discovery.
I don't believe that the multiple screenings over the course of the race have to do with accuracy or reliability of the tests. It's to prevent doping that is initiated after the race begins.
And that's how I feel..at least at this early juncture of discovery.
Landis says test was fatally flawed
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060808/sp_nm/doping_landis_dc_6
The plot gets thicker...
Honestly, there's no way those samples should not be "blind" to the analysts. That, in itself, does not prove anything, it just makes the opportunity for tampering much, much easier.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060808/sp_nm/doping_landis_dc_6
The plot gets thicker...
Honestly, there's no way those samples should not be "blind" to the analysts. That, in itself, does not prove anything, it just makes the opportunity for tampering much, much easier.
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I just watched Floyd Landis on the Tonight Show.
For what it's worth, I saw a young man who is totally mystified by what has happened. He's not defiant; he's not screaming his innocence at the top of his lungs. I believe now more than ever that there's something fishy about the whole thing.
He said he had five tests before the one that showed positive and two after the positive, and all were negative. And Jay pointed out that he hoped everything worked out for Landis, saying, "You don't strike me as being so stupid you'd do something you knew could be so easily detected."
For what it's worth, I saw a young man who is totally mystified by what has happened. He's not defiant; he's not screaming his innocence at the top of his lungs. I believe now more than ever that there's something fishy about the whole thing.
He said he had five tests before the one that showed positive and two after the positive, and all were negative. And Jay pointed out that he hoped everything worked out for Landis, saying, "You don't strike me as being so stupid you'd do something you knew could be so easily detected."