Problems with the deal - contaminated site, etc.

#35
Just got back from County Election site

The last (non-primary) election was Nov 05

The turnout in the county was 326,061/629,847 51.77 percent

http://www.saccounty.net/elections/ENG/docs/Special-Statewide-Election-SOV.pdf
To be fair, the Census estimates the population 18 and over for Sac County to be 961,764 for 2004. 2004 was the latest estimate they had on their website (www.census.gov). I also know 18+ doesn't necessarily equate to "eligible to vote" but I would assume the numbers would be fairly close.

Anyway, that is a percentage of 34% of eligible voters actually turning out.
 
#36
Fears of building on a toxic superfund site. Not that Aerojet has caused most of the well water in Rancho Cordova to be capped and marked as toxic. Or the fact that Aerojets polution has seeped under the American River and polluted the wells of Carmichael. And the plumes have been proven to cause cancer.
I don't know about "most" of the groundwater beneath Rancho being affected by the Aerojet plume, but you are right in that the subsurface plume has crossed the American River in places. A most unfortunate scenario, but thankfully it is now being addressed.

But hey, what does this have to do with the Railyard project, which also has its own groundwater situation?

Nothing.

Are all the residents in Rancho and as far west as the fringes of Carmichael having an impact from contaminated water hundreds of feet beneath them? Have they evacuated most of Rancho?

Of course not.

Why? There is no risk to residents at the ground surface.

Yes, the Aerojet groundwater contamination has gotten into the aquifers that some utility wells withdraw water from. These have been identified years and years ago and have been idled or had carbon treatment systems installed at the wellheads to remove the trace level organic contaminants. Additional wells have been installed within the plume and beyond its leading edge, and active measures have been taken and are ongoing to halt the progress of the plume as well as shrink its size.

All this has NOTHING to do with the Railyard project or trying to draw some far-fetched parallel that a problem will still reside there at the surface when construction begins.

Wait there is more. Remember the other AFB in sacramento McClellan? It will only be a few thousand years before that superfund site is clean. And to top it off the government is trying to skirt it's responsiblities on cleaning up the water for the residents of Rio Linda.
McClellan is a worse problem because the AF used much more solvents there than at Mather. McClellan was an aircraft maintenance facility for most of its life, and Mather was a training school for the majority of its life. McClellan's contamination is amongst the worst found at any active or closed AF base, and it will indeed take along time to clean up completely.

But guess what? Mather Field thrives. McClellan Park thrives.

There is no more contamination anywhere at Mather at the surface that creates a risk to human health or the environment. The same is true, for the most part, at McClellan, and so development has proceeded there, thankfully for the sake of the region's economy. Where any residual concerns might exist at or near the surface at McClellan, those areas are fenced, posted, and off limits to public access until they are finally addressed.

I have no idea what the status of negotiations is with Rio Linda and the need to replace a portion of their water supply. I was involved with one utility who lost a well to service near Mather, and I can tell you that they unreasonably asked for so, so much it dragged the negotiations to a halt for long time before a middle ground was reached.

Again, what does all this have to do with the Railyard project?

Nothing.

So you have to ask why I question the authorities when they make stupid remarks that a superfund site has actually been cleaned up. BS the ammount of money needed to clean these site would be off the charts. It's like placing a band aid over a bullet wound. They say the railyard is clean, but if you believe it then buy a house on the property and drink the tap water.
Big distinction here between cleaning up the surface of a former contaminated site to allow development and cleaning up groundwwater, which is always a very long-term proposition. GW cleanup almost always has no bearing on surface development in the area.

Many Superfund sites have already been cleaned up and taken off the books. Most of those did not have major groundwater problems as the contamination stayed in the near-surface soils. The cost of dealing with a surface and/or near-surface problem is often not that expensive, so please don't spout out random unsubstantiated statements that these sites really don't get cleaned up because it's too expensive.

You are acting out of fear and mistrust which has no basis in reality and, most pertinent to this thread, has no basis in the Railyard development.

If the Railyard GW problem is substantial, the cleanup of that water will go on for a long time. But so what? The surface is clean for development, the near-surface is or will soon be clean for development, and the GW there is not used.
 
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#37
6 cops for every 100,000 on any given shift.
thatguy said:
SPD has 1.7 sworn officers per 1,000 residents.
...there very well could be 1.7 officers per 1000 residents. but how many of those officers are on duty per shift?
So let's see, we have 170 police per 100,000 residents and only 6 of the 170 (per 100K folks) are on duty at any one time????

Hmmmmm...

Which source seems reliable here? :rolleyes:

One is from a random cop, and the other is from a peer and government-reviewed public document.

Sorry, but in order to have meaningful dialogue here and get to the bottom of these issues, we need to stick to documented facts.
 
#38
And do we need to put people in harms way when we know the area is polluted?
The people who will soon populate the Railyards area are at no greater risk (ie=none) than those that live atop groundwater plumes across the country. Actually, I don't even know for sure if the GW is contaminated at the site of the proposed arena.
 
#40
Just check the screen name. Green King. Environmentalist. Yes it's a superfund site, and yes they are going to clean it before building on it.

Let me be the first to say that you are way off on the environmentalist. It's a whole different green that I name myself after. And no it's not for my collection of dead presidents in my wallet. lol.

1.3 million people in sacramento county.

http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/06/06067.html

445000 people in the city of sacramento.

1.7 million people total. Lets combine the two and the number of cops on duty per shift will be around 6 per 100000.

but wait our police force is spread out into communities which dont fall under the city or county. Start adding up the hundreds of thousands of people that dont fall under the census.

Making numbers say what you want is easy when facts are hidden.
 
#41
Let me be the first to say that you are way off on the environmentalist. It's a whole different green that I name myself after. And no it's not for my collection of dead presidents in my wallet. lol.

1.3 million people in sacramento county.

http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/06/06067.html

445000 people in the city of sacramento.

1.7 million people total. Lets combine the two and the number of cops on duty per shift will be around 6 per 100000.

but wait our police force is spread out into communities which dont fall under the city or county. Start adding up the hundreds of thousands of people that dont fall under the census.

Making numbers say what you want is easy when facts are hidden.
You are suffering from bad reasoning here. The 1.3 million people in Sac County include the population of Sac City; this isn't an addition situation. SPD is for the city of Sac...this says nothing about Sac County Sheriffs or other cities' police departments and their associated sworn officers. I have made it perfectly clear that I was solely using and referencing SPD numbers.

The Census isn't perfect, but it isn't missing "hundreds of thousands" of people. To think otherwise again proves your ignorance on the matter.

I admire your dedication, but you need to start using facts in your arguments. Using the facts I have found, which apparently do not understand, in error does nothing to prove your point.
 
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Warhawk

Give blood and save a life!
Staff member
#42
Before you rant on this, take a minute and try and look at it from the standpoint from people who cant afford the tax, especially for something that has absolutelty no benifit to helping their lives on a daily basis. They are the ones who will be getting hosed.
OK, this is the part that I rarely see addressed.

So your point is that the very poorest won't benefit. They are also the ones paying VERY little tax. For every $100 taxable dollars spent, the tax is a quarter. They probably pay less than $0.50/month. But, that is also beside the point for my next statement.

Look at where over half the tax raised is going to be spent. Cities and the county for whatever projects they determine the public needs. Things like police, fire, and, more than likely, support for programs for the poor and elderly through new facilities and programs. I won't benefit from these at all and hope to never to have to use their services. But those that have a need will. And if there is a particular need they want addressed, all they have to do is contact their representatives.
 
#43
That is the touchy subject Warhawk. It sounds really awful to think that those with the least will also be affected. However, the opponents hate it when it's brought up that it's 25 cents for every taxable $100 purchase because they want people to not realize that it is so little when you work it out. I'm pretty average with my spending and unless I actually make any big purchases like a car, appliance, electronics or whatever, I can't see averaging more than 2 or 3 bucks a month out of pocket. That means that I spend about $1000 a month on taxable items. I even highly doubt that I get near or above that more than a few times a year. I feel for those who are unemployed or who are barely making it, but I really doubt they would notice the increase.
 
#44
Site

Were you really on the UP yard or actually at 5th and I (the court house)? I have been on site, but I don't think anyone and everyone is allowed on this private property.

I know the site still needs to be cleaned up, but it isn't so bad that you can tell that without reading a report or actually sampling and testing soil. Putting an arena there actually makes the level of cleanup lower than planned since it isn't a park or residential and all ground is capped with building or pavement or concrete or landscapeing topsoil.
 
#45
OK, this is the part that I rarely see addressed.

So your point is that the very poorest won't benefit. They are also the ones paying VERY little tax. For every $100 taxable dollars spent, the tax is a quarter. They probably pay less than $0.50/month. But, that is also beside the point for my next statement.

Look at where over half the tax raised is going to be spent. Cities and the county for whatever projects they determine the public needs. Things like police, fire, and, more than likely, support for programs for the poor and elderly through new facilities and programs. I won't benefit from these at all and hope to never to have to use their services. But those that have a need will. And if there is a particular need they want addressed, all they have to do is contact their representatives.

While it may be off the point in relation to your next statement, this is a very valuable point in itself. There are always going to be people against tax increases of any kind. That is their right. However, hiding behind the excuse that a sales tax is going to unfairly hurt the poor just isn't rational. As has been pointed out on this sight before, most of the purchases made by the "poorest of the poor" are not subject to sales tax. There is virtually no one that will be "unable to buy milk for their kids" as a result of any increase in sales tax simply because milk is not taxable.

With all the good that could be done with the tax dollars raised, I believe that the poorest of the poor will benefit, either from increased programs for the poor, increased police support, etc. etc.

The people who benefit from the tax are NOT only going to be the Kings season ticket holders or the Maloofs. I really believe this is a win/win situation.
 
#46
Cant even get off their butts to apply for a mail in ballot. These are the people who are Kings fans for the most part. Loyal to the team yet to lazy to go vote and be an american, unless you choose not to vote as your choice. But if you choose not to vote then you need to shut the hell up.
Don't you think this is very judgemental for you to say? How do you know they are Kings fan? Don't go making accusations thinking that most kings fan don't vote and are too lazy to vote.
 
#47
Well Green hasn't posted in 3 days...

All we can do as supporters is present the facts. Even if they are negative - let people make an educated decision. What might appear to be a great deal to one could be a horrible deal to someone else. Thats a right just as its ours to support it.

If your simply a kings fan and supporting it just because it's the kings or a person that doesn't want taxes or one that wants all taxes to go to social programs... that doesn't make one ignorant and for sure it doesn't mean someone hates Sacramento.

Present the facts, let one make an educated decision. This section of KF should be heating up, it's already starting to get media attention. The more facts we can present the better.
 
#48
Railyard Location

I have serious doubts about the revitalization of the railyard. It will look nice and new, but it's in a "dead" corner of downtown. It's going to take a huge PR stunt to make Alkali Flats the new hot spot of sacramento. Great location for clubs and bars, just walking distance from the drunk tank. What about the homeless in the area? 12th and D street is not that far away from the arena. And good luck trying to move the inhabitants away from that area. Is sacramento going to move Loaves and Fishes? But the homeless are only part of the problem. There is a HUGE tweeker problem also. Nothing better than going to work, parking your car and walking into someone smoking meth or finding a syringe on the ground. Lovely area for an arena.

If the police cant controll the crowds at old town sacramento who is to say that the new arena doesn't draw the same thugs and problems? I have been in old town and watched gangbangers fight and prey on the everyone. It's kind of shocking watching a gang jump someone and almost kill him with a metal pipe. That was a few years ago. Now those thugs shoot to kill. Downtown at night has a lot of problems. And this arena in my opinion is going to add to the problems and Sacramento residents wont be any better off, yet they will be responsible for the 500 million.

The only people who are getting rewarded for this deal are the Maloofs. They will probobly get their new arena, and the prices for everything there will go UP EVERY YEAR. If the Maloofs were to come out and say we will keep the prices of tickets at the league average or below I wouldn't be so anti arena. But thats not the case. Every year sacramentans have been raped by these asshats. I dont even care what they charge for food, drink, beer, or merchandise. Just as long as they keep the ticket prices reasonable. Especially if the fans are the ones paying for the buidling.

But hey if everyone is ok with paying extra taxes and paying the maloofs top dollar for tickets. SO be it.
 
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#49
I have serious doubts about the revitalization of the railyard. It will look nice and new, but it's in a "dead" corner of downtown.
Hey, don't you think it's largely dead there because it's a RAILYARD? If you remove that element it does actually become nicer. Did you see China Basin before it had the ballpark? Does Sacramento have a worse homeless/transient/druggie problem than places like San Francisco, Chicago or New York? Somehow those cities have managed to have wonderful downtown areas despite all those worries.
 
#50
Hey, don't you think it's largely dead there because it's a RAILYARD? If you remove that element it does actually become nicer. Did you see China Basin before it had the ballpark? Does Sacramento have a worse homeless/transient/druggie problem than places like San Francisco, Chicago or New York? Somehow those cities have managed to have wonderful downtown areas despite all those worries.

And for the most part all those cities you mentioned have their facilities in the heart of their cities, not on the outskirts/corner. And comparing sacramento to SF, CHI, and NYC is amusing.
 
#51
So, your argument is the Railyard is too far from the 'real' downtown, yet it's close enough for the homeless and the junkies to get there.

I take it you aren't a season ticket holder? Last year they (the Kings) had some great 'think tank' get togethers with season ticket holders, in which they solicited input on improving the experience. Trust me, season ticket prices were right up there near the top of concerns, and you know what? They didn't raise them this year. It's a fine line for them, since unless the Kings go pretty deep into the play-offs, they operate in the red, or did before the last increase. The lack of luxury boxes does mean they have to get more for 'normal' tickets.
It's an interesting situation to watch people on one hand rant about wanting the best team we can get (and damn the cost) and then turn around and complain that the Maloofs might actually want to make some money, or at least not lose money.
 
#52
And for the most part all those cities you mentioned have their facilities in the heart of their cities, not on the outskirts/corner.
Do we need to get Google out are you just going to admit that you're not off on that one?
China Basin is NOT at the heart of the city. In fact it's on the other end of the city from Fisherman's Wharf. It takes like 10 or 15 minutes to walk there from the Financial District.
Navy Pier in Chicago is a north of the main streets of downtown. It took me about 30-45 minutes to walk to Navy Pier from the heart of downtown Chicago. Don't even try to argue that point because I was there a few weeks ago and walked all over downtown Chicago.
And Manhattan is a 13 mile long island. Walking from one end to the other is like walking from downtown Sac to Roseville. So when you say everything is downtown, it's apples and oranges.
The relative distance of downtown proper to the railyard is nothing. Average people can walk it in about 5-10 minutes.

The point isn't amusing at all. The fact is ALL cities have the problems you mentioned. And none of those problems have ever stopped any city from moving forward and building. Forget the arena, your position on being against developing anything in the railyards is puzzling to me.
 
#53
China Basin is NOT at the heart of the city. In fact it's on the other end of the city from Fisherman's Wharf. It takes like 10 or 15 minutes to walk there from the Financial District.


The point isn't amusing at all. The fact is ALL cities have the problems you mentioned. And none of those problems have ever stopped any city from moving forward and building. Forget the arena, your position on being against developing anything in the railyards is puzzling to me.
I gave up trying to understand. While he has a few good points made in another thread, this one seems to just be tossing stuff at the wall to see what sticks.

I walked from Pier39 to China basin... :) LOL thinking it was close by...that ended up being a VERY long walk