Peace Out Wells ...
- Thread starter sactown100
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How about the entire argument for those interested in winning basketball games?
If Kevin Martin were to come back, with no Bonzi, start, and average 14pts 3rebs 2ast, that's nearly worst case scenario. We just took a BIG step back. Not only is our starter putting up weaker numbers across the board than our starter last year + showing no growth in his game, but we no longer have a top reserve behind him. The whole position gets downgraded from a solid B into a shaky C, and our rebounding, an area where we have no room for error, takes a giant body blow.
Bonzi was a tic below 14pts 8rebs 2stls last year, and in shortish minutes for a starter too (32). Make them 38 or whatever and that's something like 15pts 9rebs (!) 2+stl jsut for comparison.
In order to beat that sort of contribution your replacement had BETTER be able to rack up at LEAST 18+ppg or do something else pretty damn spectacular. And that's before we even get to the bench drop off once Bonzi is gone and his backup is now starting.
If Kevin Martin were to come back, with no Bonzi, start, and average 14pts 3rebs 2ast, that's nearly worst case scenario. We just took a BIG step back. Not only is our starter putting up weaker numbers across the board than our starter last year + showing no growth in his game, but we no longer have a top reserve behind him. The whole position gets downgraded from a solid B into a shaky C, and our rebounding, an area where we have no room for error, takes a giant body blow.
Bonzi was a tic below 14pts 8rebs 2stls last year, and in shortish minutes for a starter too (32). Make them 38 or whatever and that's something like 15pts 9rebs (!) 2+stl jsut for comparison.
In order to beat that sort of contribution your replacement had BETTER be able to rack up at LEAST 18+ppg or do something else pretty damn spectacular. And that's before we even get to the bench drop off once Bonzi is gone and his backup is now starting.
Well, he will be 30 when the season starts. Unfortunately that's about over the hill in basketball years. That's why he isn't signed yet. Kings don't want to invest too much money in a guy that seems to have finally peaked after years of trouble.
Look, I would love to have Bonzi back. It will be a huge loss, but it's not worth putting this team in contract problems. We just got out of the Christie/Webber inflated contract situation.
Look, I would love to have Bonzi back. It will be a huge loss, but it's not worth putting this team in contract problems. We just got out of the Christie/Webber inflated contract situation.
Mike Bibby - reason he hasn't been as good the last couple playoffs is because he's so tired at the end of those two seasons from playing so many minutes and not having a back-up really. Bibby hasn't had consistent, decent at least back-up since February 2004 (B-Jax got hurt), then we still had Doug then so he could handle the point, along with Vlade and Webb and Brad.
Kevin Martin.
Kevin Martin.
I don't think we know for sure why Bonzi isn't signed yet, but I don't think the hold-up is on the Kings' end.
Bonzi's agent, like all agents, wants to make sure he gets the very best deal possible for his client. And his client, seeing what other guys have gotten - thanks, New Orleans - has to be wanting to see just how much he's worth.
I think the Kings made a bona fide offer to Bonzi, probably not the highest they were actually willing to go but a good opening gambit. I think Phillips responded with a counter-offer that was most likely more than Petrie was willing to go. Now, I think Petrie - knowing the market - is waiting to see if Phillips will back off a bit.
I do think this is dragging on longer than Petrie likes and I fully expect at some point Petrie will say enough is enough and make an "expiring offer" that pretty much says either Bonzi accepts it or we say thanks for the memories. At that point, the onus will be on Bonzi to tell his agent to accept the Kings or he'll be looking at the MLE from another team.
Bonzi's agent, like all agents, wants to make sure he gets the very best deal possible for his client. And his client, seeing what other guys have gotten - thanks, New Orleans
- has to be wanting to see just how much he's worth.I think the Kings made a bona fide offer to Bonzi, probably not the highest they were actually willing to go but a good opening gambit. I think Phillips responded with a counter-offer that was most likely more than Petrie was willing to go. Now, I think Petrie - knowing the market - is waiting to see if Phillips will back off a bit.
I do think this is dragging on longer than Petrie likes and I fully expect at some point Petrie will say enough is enough and make an "expiring offer" that pretty much says either Bonzi accepts it or we say thanks for the memories. At that point, the onus will be on Bonzi to tell his agent to accept the Kings or he'll be looking at the MLE from another team.
I'm in favor of bringing Bonzi back, but Walker60's right that this isn't the entire argument. Bonzi is a risk because of:
1) his behavior issues -- even if you think they're a thing of the past, Bonzi has spent the bulk of his career as a talented problem and one year as a model citizen.
2) his age -- as yo've pointed out he's not old, but he will be by the time the deal ends
3) peaking issues -- it's almost a certainty that we've seen the best Bonzi has to offer. It's downhill from here.
4) Kevin's development -- everyone who points out that Kevin can continue to develop as a 6th man. But that's not the same thing as being thrust into a starter's role where he will be compelled to produce on a nightly basis. Having a starter ahead of him will unquestionably hinder his development. Now, Kevin may not be someone who's ceiling is so high that he's the starting 2 on a championship-level team, but no one really knows at this point who he will be
So all of this boils down to price. The balance of risk vs. reward. I like the deal we're rumored to have offered Bonzi. You get above $40 million and I'm in the S&T camp.
1) his behavior issues -- even if you think they're a thing of the past, Bonzi has spent the bulk of his career as a talented problem and one year as a model citizen.
2) his age -- as yo've pointed out he's not old, but he will be by the time the deal ends
3) peaking issues -- it's almost a certainty that we've seen the best Bonzi has to offer. It's downhill from here.
4) Kevin's development -- everyone who points out that Kevin can continue to develop as a 6th man. But that's not the same thing as being thrust into a starter's role where he will be compelled to produce on a nightly basis. Having a starter ahead of him will unquestionably hinder his development. Now, Kevin may not be someone who's ceiling is so high that he's the starting 2 on a championship-level team, but no one really knows at this point who he will be
So all of this boils down to price. The balance of risk vs. reward. I like the deal we're rumored to have offered Bonzi. You get above $40 million and I'm in the S&T camp.
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I don't think we know for sure why Bonzi isn't signed yet, but I don't think the hold-up is on the Kings' end.
Bonzi's agent, like all agents, wants to make sure he gets the very best deal possible for his client. And his client, seeing what other guys have gotten - thanks, New Orleans - has to be wanting to see just how much he's worth.
I think the Kings made a bona fide offer to Bonzi, probably not the highest they were actually willing to go but a good opening gambit. I think Phillips responded with a counter-offer that was most likely more than Petrie was willing to go. Now, I think Petrie - knowing the market - is waiting to see if Phillips will back off a bit.
I do think this is dragging on longer than Petrie likes and I fully expect at some point Petrie will say enough is enough and make an "expiring offer" that pretty much says either Bonzi accepts it or we say thanks for the memories. At that point, the onus will be on Bonzi to tell his agent to accept the Kings or he'll be looking at the MLE from another team.
Bonzi's agent, like all agents, wants to make sure he gets the very best deal possible for his client. And his client, seeing what other guys have gotten - thanks, New Orleans
- has to be wanting to see just how much he's worth.I think the Kings made a bona fide offer to Bonzi, probably not the highest they were actually willing to go but a good opening gambit. I think Phillips responded with a counter-offer that was most likely more than Petrie was willing to go. Now, I think Petrie - knowing the market - is waiting to see if Phillips will back off a bit.
I do think this is dragging on longer than Petrie likes and I fully expect at some point Petrie will say enough is enough and make an "expiring offer" that pretty much says either Bonzi accepts it or we say thanks for the memories. At that point, the onus will be on Bonzi to tell his agent to accept the Kings or he'll be looking at the MLE from another team.
I don't think we know for sure why Bonzi isn't signed yet, but I don't think the hold-up is on the Kings' end.
Bonzi's agent, like all agents, wants to make sure he gets the very best deal possible for his client. And his client, seeing what other guys have gotten - thanks, New Orleans - has to be wanting to see just how much he's worth.
I think the Kings made a bona fide offer to Bonzi, probably not the highest they were actually willing to go but a good opening gambit. I think Phillips responded with a counter-offer that was most likely more than Petrie was willing to go. Now, I think Petrie - knowing the market - is waiting to see if Phillips will back off a bit.
I do think this is dragging on longer than Petrie likes and I fully expect at some point Petrie will say enough is enough and make an "expiring offer" that pretty much says either Bonzi accepts it or we say thanks for the memories. At that point, the onus will be on Bonzi to tell his agent to accept the Kings or he'll be looking at the MLE from another team.
Bonzi's agent, like all agents, wants to make sure he gets the very best deal possible for his client. And his client, seeing what other guys have gotten - thanks, New Orleans
- has to be wanting to see just how much he's worth.I think the Kings made a bona fide offer to Bonzi, probably not the highest they were actually willing to go but a good opening gambit. I think Phillips responded with a counter-offer that was most likely more than Petrie was willing to go. Now, I think Petrie - knowing the market - is waiting to see if Phillips will back off a bit.
I do think this is dragging on longer than Petrie likes and I fully expect at some point Petrie will say enough is enough and make an "expiring offer" that pretty much says either Bonzi accepts it or we say thanks for the memories. At that point, the onus will be on Bonzi to tell his agent to accept the Kings or he'll be looking at the MLE from another team.
I'm not going to pretend to know the deal Bonzi has with his agent. I do know that some players rely on and trust in their agents more than others. We have no idea how the negotiations between Phillips and Petrie are going, or even if they're going or stalled. We only know what Phillips has leaked and right now he's not even saying anything...
We don't know Petrie's plan but we do know he has no problems in letting players walk if needs be. All this talk of the good free agents being signed up might well be irrelevant. Petrie may well have an entirely different plan in mind.
Again, we simply do not know. All we can do is commiserate together and postulate possible scenarios.
We don't know Petrie's plan but we do know he has no problems in letting players walk if needs be. All this talk of the good free agents being signed up might well be irrelevant. Petrie may well have an entirely different plan in mind.
Again, we simply do not know. All we can do is commiserate together and postulate possible scenarios.
Wells does not necessarily need to play like he did in the playoff throughout the reg season. Im sure everyone remembers after the all start break we were one of the hottest teams in the league. What Im saying is wells can play average, and turn it up like he did in the playoffs. pull a Shaq I guess you could say...
I'd add in the "Contract year" phenomenon and put it right at the top of the list. There's no reason to think that he won't put up similar numbers offensively (although his shooting numbers weren't that great really). Take away the fantastic playoff series and the real asset he brought to the team was his 7.7 rebounds. He's never averaged more than 6 before (that was in 01-2). This SCREAMS contract year phenomenon.
Also his post-game, defense, toughness, never-die-attitude in him. Those things were great for the team as well.
I don't get why many (in general) are expecting he'll play like he did in the playoffs. He won't for obvious reasons. From the media stand-point, with Bonzi's contract situation, it's a dumb ignorant ploy to make concerns and questions. When, really, Bonzi's always been a good player.
Bonzi will play well like he always has excluding Memphis in 04-05 because of Fratello's idiocy and garbage. Bonzi is indeed a proven starter and quality SG in the league. He's a proven playoff player, remember those early 2000 Blazers teams playoff games? Especially against the Lakers? Remember the series against Dallas in 2003? Bonzi went off for 45 points in a game there. He played well in the Spurs series in the 2004 playoffs with the Grizzlies. Interesting stat in that 45-point game, Bonzi hit FIVE out of six threes.
Enough said.
I don't get why many (in general) are expecting he'll play like he did in the playoffs. He won't for obvious reasons. From the media stand-point, with Bonzi's contract situation, it's a dumb ignorant ploy to make concerns and questions. When, really, Bonzi's always been a good player.
Bonzi will play well like he always has excluding Memphis in 04-05 because of Fratello's idiocy and garbage. Bonzi is indeed a proven starter and quality SG in the league. He's a proven playoff player, remember those early 2000 Blazers teams playoff games? Especially against the Lakers? Remember the series against Dallas in 2003? Bonzi went off for 45 points in a game there. He played well in the Spurs series in the 2004 playoffs with the Grizzlies. Interesting stat in that 45-point game, Bonzi hit FIVE out of six threes.
Enough said.
He's always been a solid player, but he's had two standout seasons in both production overall and production per minute. 01-02 and 05-06. Those were his contract years.
Also, his career playoff stats are only slightly better than his career regular season stats. I admit though there's nothing wrong with having a solid guy who steps it up to being pretty darn good in the playoffs. But it's not like he's been a career-long playoff dominator.
Also, his career playoff stats are only slightly better than his career regular season stats. I admit though there's nothing wrong with having a solid guy who steps it up to being pretty darn good in the playoffs. But it's not like he's been a career-long playoff dominator.
none of this justifies letting him go, because kevin martin has certainly not proved much in the playoffs yet, and he's the guy you're asking to replace the hardest worker on the team last post season. i don't care if bonzi wells hasn't been a career long playoff dominator. he showed last post season exactly how effectively he can dominate, while we're entirely uncertain of kevin martin's ability to step into a starter's role full time, much less in the playoffs.
I really like Bonzi, and I won't be mad if he's back next year. But I think he's been overrated a little bit by some on this board beacuse Kings fans have been so starved for someone with his level of toughness. And then he backed it up with an astonishingly good playoff series.
I think if there are options in S&T similar to the Foster and Jaskivecius deal we'd be better off doing that then signing him to a 5y/40-45m deal. If no trade can be worked out, then I'd definitely like to have him back, obviosuly the lower the number the better.
I think if there are options in S&T similar to the Foster and Jaskivecius deal we'd be better off doing that then signing him to a 5y/40-45m deal. If no trade can be worked out, then I'd definitely like to have him back, obviosuly the lower the number the better.
I have to revert to something Bricklayer said in a post about 2 months ago. Kevin would be a good starter. Bonzi is a good starter. But with Kevin and Bonzi both on the same team with Artest the other swing, well my friends thats pushing greatness.
"Kevin Martin could one day be great but, he will never be as good as Kevin Martin + Bonzi Wells." (Bricklayer)
Point being if we don't sign wells then Kevin is our starter. So who is the backup for Kevin and Ron? Garcia? Ok i will give you that. maybe he is ready to be a solid backup getting 20 min a game not sure but, maybe. Now here is the kicker what if Ron or Kevin gets hurt and Garcia has to start?????? who is the backup now?? rookie Douby? some smuck we pick up with no where near the talent of Bonzi or Kevin or even Garcia for that matter. here it is plain and simple for the even the slowest of minds to comprihend.
Bonzi/K-Mart/Garcia/Douby
Ron/K-Mart/Garcia
That is called depth and it goes a long way if your coach wants to run an up tempo style offense and still be in your face pressing defense. that style depends on solid depth and with that group of 4 or 5 players not many in the league can get that quality and quantity on the same roster at the 2/3.
"Kevin Martin could one day be great but, he will never be as good as Kevin Martin + Bonzi Wells." (Bricklayer)
Point being if we don't sign wells then Kevin is our starter. So who is the backup for Kevin and Ron? Garcia? Ok i will give you that. maybe he is ready to be a solid backup getting 20 min a game not sure but, maybe. Now here is the kicker what if Ron or Kevin gets hurt and Garcia has to start?????? who is the backup now?? rookie Douby? some smuck we pick up with no where near the talent of Bonzi or Kevin or even Garcia for that matter. here it is plain and simple for the even the slowest of minds to comprihend.
Bonzi/K-Mart/Garcia/Douby
Ron/K-Mart/Garcia
That is called depth and it goes a long way if your coach wants to run an up tempo style offense and still be in your face pressing defense. that style depends on solid depth and with that group of 4 or 5 players not many in the league can get that quality and quantity on the same roster at the 2/3.
This is probably not very likely but what the heck. The Kings were reported to be in the running for Magloire. Let's say for whatever reason the exchange of Magloire for K. Thomas takes place. Back-up/starting center on paper is taken care of.
Washington has just signed Songalia and might be a little on the soft side. There are indications (maybe just from fans?) that they also aren't too happy with the contracts/production of E. Thomas and Antonio Daniels. To get rid of two of their undesirable contracts and get some toughness, would they exchange a re-signed Bonzi along with Monia (a player that could then be given his official release w/o penalty or cost?) to make salaries work for Daniels and E. Thomas. The Kings would get the tough 4 they need plus the security in terms of the 2.
Just idle musings.
Washington has just signed Songalia and might be a little on the soft side. There are indications (maybe just from fans?) that they also aren't too happy with the contracts/production of E. Thomas and Antonio Daniels. To get rid of two of their undesirable contracts and get some toughness, would they exchange a re-signed Bonzi along with Monia (a player that could then be given his official release w/o penalty or cost?) to make salaries work for Daniels and E. Thomas. The Kings would get the tough 4 they need plus the security in terms of the 2.
Just idle musings.
Etan brings what we need better than KT, and compliments Brad more. Solid defensive big.
Magloire, I'd prefer to focus on first though. Then hopefully getting one of them, sign a big like Wright or Ely. Both mobile bigs who can play the 4 or 5 effectively with pretty good size, are effective without the ball, and aren't bad offensively. Which is what their role wouldn't be, they'd be out there to play defense, hustle, get boards, block some shots. Cato/Kandi would also be options if we get Etan.
Those are just our realities right now for bigs.
Magloire, I'd prefer to focus on first though. Then hopefully getting one of them, sign a big like Wright or Ely. Both mobile bigs who can play the 4 or 5 effectively with pretty good size, are effective without the ball, and aren't bad offensively. Which is what their role wouldn't be, they'd be out there to play defense, hustle, get boards, block some shots. Cato/Kandi would also be options if we get Etan.
Those are just our realities right now for bigs.
and its a fact the Kings are taking a real hard look at getting Ariza so ... TA DA...
guess the Kings are feeling kinda the same way I am bout Wells future with the Kings... look at what kind of numbers Martin put up when Wells went down ... the whole league knows about this kid now... and its not cause hes gonna just be OK as a starter ... hes gonna be a out right stud... umm if his numbers got a tad more consistent and a tad better... wow thats not just an OK player..
this is the NBA guys... hes the real deal...
i wont be mad if Wells resigns i wanted the kings to keep him right out the gate into the offseason but i am starting to come down from the playoff high and think that adding a defensive big is the most important thing we need and that we could really use more 3pt range out on the floor ... instead of Wells post play..
Artest is more than capable of crushing fools and with another 3pt threat out there with Bibby teams will get punished if they double Artest... " LET IT RAIN! "
guess the Kings are feeling kinda the same way I am bout Wells future with the Kings... look at what kind of numbers Martin put up when Wells went down ... the whole league knows about this kid now... and its not cause hes gonna just be OK as a starter ... hes gonna be a out right stud... umm if his numbers got a tad more consistent and a tad better... wow thats not just an OK player..
this is the NBA guys... hes the real deal...
i wont be mad if Wells resigns i wanted the kings to keep him right out the gate into the offseason but i am starting to come down from the playoff high and think that adding a defensive big is the most important thing we need and that we could really use more 3pt range out on the floor ... instead of Wells post play..
Artest is more than capable of crushing fools and with another 3pt threat out there with Bibby teams will get punished if they double Artest... " LET IT RAIN! "
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