Christie’s Kings
- Thread starter Tetsujin
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I've seen all Christie's post game interviews. He's doing the best he can with this group. I see him holding back on what he really wants to day. A little came out today. But for the most part he's just trying to give these guys confidence and hoping that they have the same drive that he did as a player.
What he doesn't understand yet is that some players just are not built like he was. That self motivation, pride and love of the game isn't built in everyone. Some people love money. Some will sacrifice the team for self interest.
The good thing about this is the man can flat out coach the right players. It's not up to him to fix attitudes. That's the GMs job. Get Christie Team players and he will make a Team
Also, Monk has another level not yet reached. The other poster hit it on the nail. Opportunity is everything. Ellis would be on a G league roster right now if he wasn't given opportunity. Give any decent NBA player 20 shots a game and I guarantee you they will average over 20 a game.
What he doesn't understand yet is that some players just are not built like he was. That self motivation, pride and love of the game isn't built in everyone. Some people love money. Some will sacrifice the team for self interest.
The good thing about this is the man can flat out coach the right players. It's not up to him to fix attitudes. That's the GMs job. Get Christie Team players and he will make a Team
Also, Monk has another level not yet reached. The other poster hit it on the nail. Opportunity is everything. Ellis would be on a G league roster right now if he wasn't given opportunity. Give any decent NBA player 20 shots a game and I guarantee you they will average over 20 a game.
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This begs the follow-up question, what if he can't? Say what you want about Fox "playing when he feels like it," but Fox has proven that he can play at or near an All-Star level over the course of multiple seasons: Monk has not. Don't get me wrong, Monk played very well in the three games that Fox missed, but over the course of the season he has benefitted from never being higher than fourth on the opposing team's scouting report. Even playing as diminished as Fox clearly is, he still gets the respect of the other team's defensive attention, and I don't think we've yet attempted to quantify just how much Monk benefits of being behind Fox, Sabonis and DeRozan in terms of the other team's game plan.
Personally, I am far from convinced that, moved up from #4 to #2 on the scouting report, that Monk would continue to be as consistently productive. I think that the flaws in his game would be brought into sharp relief if he were being guarded by the opposition's best defender every night, as opposed to rarely, in spot stretches, if he gets hot. Would Monk still be as productive as he is now, when opposing coaches go from, "We gotta stop Fox, and if Monk goes off and beats us, we'll tip our cap," to "We gotta stop Monk"? I don't know. But I do know that a lot of people here seem to be hanging their hat on the belief that he can, and don't appear to be prepared for the alternative.
tl;dr- a lot of Fox trade scenarios seem to hinge on the belief that Monk has another level that he can ascend to. What if he doesn't?
Personally, I am far from convinced that, moved up from #4 to #2 on the scouting report, that Monk would continue to be as consistently productive. I think that the flaws in his game would be brought into sharp relief if he were being guarded by the opposition's best defender every night, as opposed to rarely, in spot stretches, if he gets hot. Would Monk still be as productive as he is now, when opposing coaches go from, "We gotta stop Fox, and if Monk goes off and beats us, we'll tip our cap," to "We gotta stop Monk"? I don't know. But I do know that a lot of people here seem to be hanging their hat on the belief that he can, and don't appear to be prepared for the alternative.
tl;dr- a lot of Fox trade scenarios seem to hinge on the belief that Monk has another level that he can ascend to. What if he doesn't?
i meen if they ever traded Fox im assuming theyd be getting a really good player back. I dont think Monk would be the second option in that scenario. Hopefully Monte would replace Foxs scoring with whoever is coming back. Because youre right that would leave a huge void.
Monks already kinda playing at that level though. His playmaking is special. His synergy with Domas is next level. I feel like even if he didnt take that leap scoring wise the rest of his game and playstyle would still allow him to excel at point guard if you sorround him with the right pieces.
And if he did take the leap all of a sudden his value is insane for the contract hes on.
Monks already kinda playing at that level though. His playmaking is special. His synergy with Domas is next level. I feel like even if he didnt take that leap scoring wise the rest of his game and playstyle would still allow him to excel at point guard if you sorround him with the right pieces.
And if he did take the leap all of a sudden his value is insane for the contract hes on.
I think the question has to be a bit more nuanced. If Keon is taking the key offensive guard that puts Fox/Malik in a help defense role.
now no question Fox has more lateral quickness but he gets distracted in help defense. I saw more than a few instances of Fox guarding no one and being late on rotations against the Knicks. I don’t know if @twslam07 has metrics that isolates effectiveness in this role.
now no question Fox has more lateral quickness but he gets distracted in help defense. I saw more than a few instances of Fox guarding no one and being late on rotations against the Knicks. I don’t know if @twslam07 has metrics that isolates effectiveness in this role.
Fox at this salary allows the GM to build with other big salaried players like Sabonis. Fox at SuperMax money, which is significant unless I’m wrong, doesn’t seem worth it. Here’s a question, does any one in the OKC fan base complain that SGA isnt always locked in? This topic comes up often with Fox.
And I liked Fox quite a bit and still do to a point since the Brown firing, but if he’s as good as many say, why not trade him for a Franz Wagner or other terrific player/wing or the Houston package? Seems like a win win for all
And I liked Fox quite a bit and still do to a point since the Brown firing, but if he’s as good as many say, why not trade him for a Franz Wagner or other terrific player/wing or the Houston package? Seems like a win win for all
"Good player" is doing a lot of heavy lifting, IMO. The prevailing wisdom seems to be that Fox should be traded for defensive studs. Color me dubious at the notion of the Kings being able to get someone who is an impact player on offense and defense for Fox.
Meh. I remember Kings Fans having stars in their eyes about Keegan Murray's potential after his rookie season, visions of him becoming Klay 2.0. And it hasn't happened yet. Statistics suggest that this season is an aberration for Monk. What if it is? Malik Monk is only three months younger than De'Aaron Fox; they were both drafted the same season. What if, without Fox to absorb all of the defensive focus, he's closer to the 16/3/4 guy he was as a starter for the gd lakers than the 19/4/7 guy he's been as a starter this season? Is that good enough?
Meh. I remember Kings Fans having stars in their eyes about Keegan Murray's potential after his rookie season, visions of him becoming Klay 2.0. And it hasn't happened yet. Statistics suggest that this season is an aberration for Monk. What if it is? Malik Monk is only three months younger than De'Aaron Fox; they were both drafted the same season. What if, without Fox to absorb all of the defensive focus, he's closer to the 16/3/4 guy he was as a starter for the gd lakers than the 19/4/7 guy he's been as a starter this season? Is that good enough?
I think we have seen the presence of DeRozen typically means he gets the best defender. Also Monks strength is running the pick and roll with Domas. That kind of action is a bit different than the ISO action Fox runs.
So yes Monk won’t reach Fox’s level as he can’t get to his spot at will. But do you want Monk doing that or do you want him doing what he does best which is destroying teams in the pick and roll.
So yes Monk won’t reach Fox’s level as he can’t get to his spot at will. But do you want Monk doing that or do you want him doing what he does best which is destroying teams in the pick and roll.
valid but I think it is helpful to discuss how the Monk, Ellis, Murray, Deebo, Domas flows.
it’s going to start with a Domas Monk 2 man game. So whomever starts on Monk is getting hit with a Domas screen. The fact Domas can now flare or roll makes him more dangerous.
so defensively that game is pretty hard to stop unless you bring weakside help. That help leaves open Keegan and Ellis as shooters on the weakside. So even if you do a good job of rotating to cover them you know have Monks guy guarding Deebo on an iso play at the end of the possession. With Monk back in the corner for 3 if Deebo chooses to kick it back out.
the point is the offense under Monk does not rely so much on Monk beating his defender 1v1 as the drive and dish offense under Fox. So I agree if you ran the same kind of offense Monk would not have close to the success of Fox. But that offense isn’t what happens.
it’s going to start with a Domas Monk 2 man game. So whomever starts on Monk is getting hit with a Domas screen. The fact Domas can now flare or roll makes him more dangerous.
so defensively that game is pretty hard to stop unless you bring weakside help. That help leaves open Keegan and Ellis as shooters on the weakside. So even if you do a good job of rotating to cover them you know have Monks guy guarding Deebo on an iso play at the end of the possession. With Monk back in the corner for 3 if Deebo chooses to kick it back out.
the point is the offense under Monk does not rely so much on Monk beating his defender 1v1 as the drive and dish offense under Fox. So I agree if you ran the same kind of offense Monk would not have close to the success of Fox. But that offense isn’t what happens.
And what I'm saying is that what we can't yet quantify is what happens when the defense is guarding that pick and roll with a better point-of-attack defender than who currently guards Monk on a regular basis? You appear to believe that it will still be successful even when Monk is being guarded by better defenders because the offense will be different than when Fox is the primary ball handler. I am decidedly less convinced.
The interesting thing is that a PnR run by either Fox & DeRozan have been slightly more efficient than a PnR run by Monk (and in Fox’s case, at a higher volume). Below are their PnR ball handler stats this year…
DeRozan = 1.09 PPP / 23.3% Frequency
Fox = 1.08 PPP / 28.6% Frequency
Monk = 1.07 PPP / 26.7% Frequency
I know someone like Fox isn’t as flashy in the PnR as Monk, but he’s still effective in that play type and that’s what matters at the end of the day. In fact, Fox has been more efficient as a PnR ball handler than Monk all 3 seasons Monk has been a Sacramento Kings…
2024-25
Fox = 1.08 PPP / 28.6% Frequency
Monk = 1.07 PPP / 26.7% Frequency
2023-24
Fox = 0.97 PPP / 31.7% Frequency
Monk = 0.91 PPP / 29.9% Frequency
2022-23
Fox = 1.02 PPP / 36.0% Frequency
Monk = 0.90 PPP / 21.4% Frequency
…and to @Mr. S£im Citrus’s point, Fox is doing this while likely pulling the best POA defender on the opposing team; whereas, Monk may be posting a lot of this against a secondary defender.
DeRozan = 1.09 PPP / 23.3% Frequency
Fox = 1.08 PPP / 28.6% Frequency
Monk = 1.07 PPP / 26.7% Frequency
I know someone like Fox isn’t as flashy in the PnR as Monk, but he’s still effective in that play type and that’s what matters at the end of the day. In fact, Fox has been more efficient as a PnR ball handler than Monk all 3 seasons Monk has been a Sacramento Kings…
2024-25
Fox = 1.08 PPP / 28.6% Frequency
Monk = 1.07 PPP / 26.7% Frequency
2023-24
Fox = 0.97 PPP / 31.7% Frequency
Monk = 0.91 PPP / 29.9% Frequency
2022-23
Fox = 1.02 PPP / 36.0% Frequency
Monk = 0.90 PPP / 21.4% Frequency
…and to @Mr. S£im Citrus’s point, Fox is doing this while likely pulling the best POA defender on the opposing team; whereas, Monk may be posting a lot of this against a secondary defender.
well in a pick and roll that point of attack defender is going to run square into a Sabonis screen and he sets the best screens in the NBA. Now assuming the big covering Sabonis is say Wemby I am not sure it’s going to matter if it is Fox or Monk. Also from what I have seen from Malik his passing off of the pick n Roll is pretty elite. Did you see that perfect pass to Sabonis between 3 NY defenders? I’m not sure Fox can make that pass.
Interesting. Thank you
So the difference this year is negligible. Both have improved but Monk by a greater amount which makes sense as he has definitely improved as primary ball handler some of it do to Fox. In a pick and roll not sure it matters who your defender is unless you are like the Pels last year and you were long and fast enough to switch Fox/Monk and Sabonis without dropping a beat.
So the difference this year is negligible. Both have improved but Monk by a greater amount which makes sense as he has definitely improved as primary ball handler some of it do to Fox. In a pick and roll not sure it matters who your defender is unless you are like the Pels last year and you were long and fast enough to switch Fox/Monk and Sabonis without dropping a beat.
It dispells the notion that Monk is leagues ahead of Fox and DDR as a PnR passer. When in reality, all of them are pretty damn good. Great use-case here of combining stats and eye test because the eye test would clearly show Monk is leagues ahead. It's because he's a very flashy player and he's got a great 2-man connection with Domas. But the PPP doesn't lie.
Fox for years has been one of the highest unassisted players in the NBA. Very few guys have his ability to score and create off the bounce like he can. I've been on the Monk is a hidden offensive star for like a year now, so I think there's a decent chance that if you gave the keys to Monk, he's probably like 70-75% of what Fox can do as an on-ball creator.
Maybe the right move is moving Fox in the off-season. But the point is, Fox-level players don't grow on trees. You're much more likely to find a guy who can give you Monk impact than you are Fox impact. But there's also contract situations to balance here where Monk is like the best value for the next 3 years and Fox is headed for a max.
All in all, it's a good position to be in. Operating from a position of strength and having "too many" good players is only a benefit to the team long-term. Monte got the plane in the air, he's navigated some turbulence (Brown firing, Christie the answer?), now he has to show he can land the plane over this trade deadline and this off-season. Kings are in a win window right now with DDR still playing at a high level; what's the best way to maximize that?
Maybe the right move is moving Fox in the off-season. But the point is, Fox-level players don't grow on trees. You're much more likely to find a guy who can give you Monk impact than you are Fox impact. But there's also contract situations to balance here where Monk is like the best value for the next 3 years and Fox is headed for a max.
All in all, it's a good position to be in. Operating from a position of strength and having "too many" good players is only a benefit to the team long-term. Monte got the plane in the air, he's navigated some turbulence (Brown firing, Christie the answer?), now he has to show he can land the plane over this trade deadline and this off-season. Kings are in a win window right now with DDR still playing at a high level; what's the best way to maximize that?
I think you’re underestimating how much a quality POA defender can impact offensive players in the PnR.
Case in point…watch how Keon Ellis navigates an PnR defensively vs. Malik Monk. Ellis is pretty good at navigating around a screen and still using his length & instincts to bother an offensive player from behind or on his hip. Monk…not so much.
Case in point…watch how Keon Ellis navigates an PnR defensively vs. Malik Monk. Ellis is pretty good at navigating around a screen and still using his length & instincts to bother an offensive player from behind or on his hip. Monk…not so much.
