Finally someone with some sense. I can't get over how insanely dumb this is that our team's owner or front office (or both) are now haggling over contract extension terms with a good coach when what immediately proceeded him was 16 straight years of losing. It's like we've been lost in the desert for months and finally come across an oasis but we're unhappy that it doesn't have enough palm trees so we're considering wandering back out into the desert instead of stopping to drink. We should be beating down his door to sign him for the next 10 years not waiting for him to test the market and find a better deal elsewhere.
Woj: Kings, Mike Brown table contract discussions, far apart on deal
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Some may see sense, while others see nonsense. In order to accept the premise in this uninformed and superficial post, the reader must accept that the Kings players are an untalented group of scrubs. The team would likely finish last in the league without the talented tutelage of Coach Brown. Once again, not a single talent is specified. The measure is wins rather than how the wins were achieved.
Perhaps a view recognizing the existing considerable talent on the team, although gaps do exist, would be far more tolerable than this interpretation of what makes the Kings a team that has maximized their potential due to a coach. The reasonable conclusion is that there will be no further growth in team success since their ceiling has been reached at the hand of the "talented" coach.
Perhaps a view recognizing the existing considerable talent on the team, although gaps do exist, would be far more tolerable than this interpretation of what makes the Kings a team that has maximized their potential due to a coach. The reasonable conclusion is that there will be no further growth in team success since their ceiling has been reached at the hand of the "talented" coach.
Yeah, "with less", lol. Very arbitrary and subjective. It's also taking two different years of NBA landscape into consideration. With talent from the East going West over the last 1.5 seasons the Kings had the 16th most wins last season. That's a pretty big drop year over year although anyone who watched the games can tell it wasn't through the fault of Brown although I would also say he didn't really get more out of what he had either. Almost every stat shows what this team is, if they hit they're dangerous and if Fox doesn't play they're nothing. The only big gripes were playing McGee over Len that long (unless there is a nagging health thing with Len), his small guard lineups, his lack of even trying Monk as a starter before his contract ran out, and his chalIenge patterns. All of those are MINUTE in the grand scheme at the moment. None of those likely cost this team anything in the end other than maybe better seeding.
For the life of me can't remember who it was, but a very successful coach laid it all out and basically said a coach by themselves isn't doing **** in the NBA without the players but they can definitely screw it up even with them. The Kings have had so many of the screw it up variety that while maybe overpaid, the guy who finally got it right and just gave De'Aaron Fox the ball and said "go get it" needs to be getting his money.
For the life of me can't remember who it was, but a very successful coach laid it all out and basically said a coach by themselves isn't doing **** in the NBA without the players but they can definitely screw it up even with them. The Kings have had so many of the screw it up variety that while maybe overpaid, the guy who finally got it right and just gave De'Aaron Fox the ball and said "go get it" needs to be getting his money.
Denver (or least Denver before 5 years , cause this team has been builded for the past few years by the same coach )
Philly - we saw that without Joel they are nothing
OKC , Wolves , NY, Cleveland - really don’t see how they are more talented than Kings …
In my opinion we are really strong team who let to mane brake downs this season , otherwise we might have been at least at west semis
With one good player instead of Barnes as starter we are better then any team in East but Boston and surely top 5/6 at west
Here I comment only rosters not Brown , I do my best to stay away from that discussion
Philly - we saw that without Joel they are nothing
OKC , Wolves , NY, Cleveland - really don’t see how they are more talented than Kings …
In my opinion we are really strong team who let to mane brake downs this season , otherwise we might have been at least at west semis
With one good player instead of Barnes as starter we are better then any team in East but Boston and surely top 5/6 at west
Here I comment only rosters not Brown , I do my best to stay away from that discussion
For the final time, hopefully, I have nothing against Coach Brown personally. His coaching deficiencies would be easily correctable with relatively minor changes that have already been highlighted throughout the forum by several individuals over the past two years.
I sincerely hope Brown reviews the Kings' mediocre performance this past season and he develops a system that more closely matches the talent that already exists on the Kings. Perhaps adding another major player to the roster can spur such a change.
Practice techniques, teaching skills, personal relationships with players, and the like are not known by the general fan and can only be surmised from the in-game product. That product reached a ceiling in Brown's second season. A "different" or "refreshed" Brown may be able to raise that ceiling. I have confidence that it could be done. Then there would be no need for a Brown exit.
It just may be that winning the COY award was a detriment to the Kings and Brown since being COY could be used to justify a monomaniacal continuation of the system in place when the award was issued. A change is indicated. The nature of the change is the debate.
Finally, and to your question, wins as a statistic are not as determinative of quality for me as it may be for you. Wins are fine as the ultimate and final measure for some. But there are deeper topics to be explored.
I sincerely hope Brown reviews the Kings' mediocre performance this past season and he develops a system that more closely matches the talent that already exists on the Kings. Perhaps adding another major player to the roster can spur such a change.
Practice techniques, teaching skills, personal relationships with players, and the like are not known by the general fan and can only be surmised from the in-game product. That product reached a ceiling in Brown's second season. A "different" or "refreshed" Brown may be able to raise that ceiling. I have confidence that it could be done. Then there would be no need for a Brown exit.
It just may be that winning the COY award was a detriment to the Kings and Brown since being COY could be used to justify a monomaniacal continuation of the system in place when the award was issued. A change is indicated. The nature of the change is the debate.
Finally, and to your question, wins as a statistic are not as determinative of quality for me as it may be for you. Wins are fine as the ultimate and final measure for some. But there are deeper topics to be explored.
Denver (or least Denver before 5 years , cause this team has been builded for the past few years by the same coach )
Philly - we saw that without Joel they are nothing
OKC , Wolves , NY, Cleveland - really don’t see how they are more talented than Kings …
In my opinion we are really strong team who let to mane brake downs this season , otherwise we might have been at least at west semis
With one good player instead of Barnes as starter we are better then any team in East but Boston and surely top 5/6 at west
Here I comment only rosters not Brown , I do my best to stay away from that discussion
Philly - we saw that without Joel they are nothing
OKC , Wolves , NY, Cleveland - really don’t see how they are more talented than Kings …
In my opinion we are really strong team who let to mane brake downs this season , otherwise we might have been at least at west semis
With one good player instead of Barnes as starter we are better then any team in East but Boston and surely top 5/6 at west
Here I comment only rosters not Brown , I do my best to stay away from that discussion
-OKC and Minny have clearly jumped us. Can't really dispute the talent difference
-Your argument for Philly is bad. Of course if you take an mvp player off their squad, they're worse than us. It's closer than the above 3, but Philly is still better.
-Knicks fully healthy are more talented than us. Could say they may never be healthy, but I don't think you can dispute that.
-Cavs fully healthy is close, but them having 4 premium starters with Mitchell being better than Domas and Fox, I would put them ahead.
-Boston is one of the most talented rosters ever assembled lol. Their point differential is historically great.
It's a sports forum. The point is to discuss other people's points and talk about it. I'm not saying you hate Brown, I'm trying to nail down what your Brown position actually is. Because despite your clever word play l, you actually haven't given us your concrete thoughts on what should be done about Brown.
Wins are descriptive, not predictive, sure, but it's also one of the few measures we actually have to evaluate a coach. Becaue none of us really understand the ins and outs of coaching nba level basketball and we never will. We can evaluate rotations, substitutions, how well players are playing, etc, but there's a whole mountain of data that we just never see or know.
To me Brown is like a top 12 NBA coach that's been instrumental in getting this franchise back to respectability. Good enough to get us to a title? Don't know that yet, but he's certainly deserved the chance to try. And not be forced into a lame duck coaching season for his job.
Wins are descriptive, not predictive, sure, but it's also one of the few measures we actually have to evaluate a coach. Becaue none of us really understand the ins and outs of coaching nba level basketball and we never will. We can evaluate rotations, substitutions, how well players are playing, etc, but there's a whole mountain of data that we just never see or know.
To me Brown is like a top 12 NBA coach that's been instrumental in getting this franchise back to respectability. Good enough to get us to a title? Don't know that yet, but he's certainly deserved the chance to try. And not be forced into a lame duck coaching season for his job.
Some quite astute and insightful observations about the NBA and coaching in your post. It generates a general agreement.
Regretfully, my posts seem to be unclear regarding the status of Coach Brown. Simply put, Brown needs to develop as a head coach. Thus, what needs to be done regarding Brown can only be done by Brown. If he cannot, or is not willing, to open his mind to alternate techniques, positive instructional skills, player management, and general philosophy, then the Kings are likely to stagnate beyond just this past season. A need for a freshened approach is apparent, be it Brown or a replacement.
Brown deserves a third year to prove that he has the skills, or develops the skills, to guide the team to a higher plateau. Management and I agree (a rarity) that more proof is needed that Brown can conduct the orchestra that is the Kings. So we differ in that "coaching for his job" seems entirely reasonable in my view. In fact, coaching for his job may be an incentive to prove he deserves the job and the rewards it offers.
The fourth year being optional for both parties is an advantage for Brown should the Kings show outstanding growth. The Kings then could justify a sizeable pay increase that would insulate Brown as the Kings' head coach. It is a gamble to be sure but worth taking in my opinion.
For the fourth contract year, management has the opportunity to enact change should the third season continue the disappointment and stagnation of the second season. An extension now nullifies that advantage.
Those that fear losing Brown after a "lame duck" season would be a catastrophe might recall that the Kings were looking for a coach when Brown was hired. He could have been passed over for another candidate. Unfortunately, management deferred to the tired "coaching carousel" instead of looking for fresh opportunities, in my opinion.
If Brown is hired away then the Kings, and fans, will have a clear glimpse of his worth should he be wildly successful in a different head coaching position. Of course, then it will be too late, as many would point out.
Monte's contribution to the growth of the Kings has not been entirely overlooked but has not received much attention after the "run it back" season's results. His position provides the talent and somewhat drives the direction of the team. Coach Brown is either burdened or elevated by the skill of the players provided. The elevation of the first year was evident but it was not further developed the second year by either Monte or Coach Brown. Depending on Monte's contract, there may be questions asked about his effectiveness if the Kings begin to degrade.
Final thought: I hope each and every situation works out positively for the Kings' franchise.
Regretfully, my posts seem to be unclear regarding the status of Coach Brown. Simply put, Brown needs to develop as a head coach. Thus, what needs to be done regarding Brown can only be done by Brown. If he cannot, or is not willing, to open his mind to alternate techniques, positive instructional skills, player management, and general philosophy, then the Kings are likely to stagnate beyond just this past season. A need for a freshened approach is apparent, be it Brown or a replacement.
Brown deserves a third year to prove that he has the skills, or develops the skills, to guide the team to a higher plateau. Management and I agree (a rarity) that more proof is needed that Brown can conduct the orchestra that is the Kings. So we differ in that "coaching for his job" seems entirely reasonable in my view. In fact, coaching for his job may be an incentive to prove he deserves the job and the rewards it offers.
The fourth year being optional for both parties is an advantage for Brown should the Kings show outstanding growth. The Kings then could justify a sizeable pay increase that would insulate Brown as the Kings' head coach. It is a gamble to be sure but worth taking in my opinion.
For the fourth contract year, management has the opportunity to enact change should the third season continue the disappointment and stagnation of the second season. An extension now nullifies that advantage.
Those that fear losing Brown after a "lame duck" season would be a catastrophe might recall that the Kings were looking for a coach when Brown was hired. He could have been passed over for another candidate. Unfortunately, management deferred to the tired "coaching carousel" instead of looking for fresh opportunities, in my opinion.
If Brown is hired away then the Kings, and fans, will have a clear glimpse of his worth should he be wildly successful in a different head coaching position. Of course, then it will be too late, as many would point out.
Monte's contribution to the growth of the Kings has not been entirely overlooked but has not received much attention after the "run it back" season's results. His position provides the talent and somewhat drives the direction of the team. Coach Brown is either burdened or elevated by the skill of the players provided. The elevation of the first year was evident but it was not further developed the second year by either Monte or Coach Brown. Depending on Monte's contract, there may be questions asked about his effectiveness if the Kings begin to degrade.
Final thought: I hope each and every situation works out positively for the Kings' franchise.
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I like the way you express your thoughts! I tend to agree in principal, but also recognize there is a common wisdom that a lame duck coach won't have the buy-in of a locker room or the needed level of influence within the organization. I believe there may be ways around that (public statements of support/commitment from both sides, etc.) that can circumvent these problems for awhile, while the processes you describe take place, but I would submit that it's advantageous for the Kings to get resolution well before the season hits the halfway mark.
That's the thing though, the West got waaay more talented and the bottom of the East got weaker from year 1 to year 2. Once it did the Kings dropped to 16th. You can't just average out 2 years like that when the league was reshaped talent wise. The end result last season was pretty much 13th in the lottery/mediocre kind of stuff most years. But yeah, a coach ain't changing that, Brown did pretty much what anyone should have expected with that roster.
Exactly, and I while the players will likely never buy out on Brown unless the team slides and tempers start flaring because Brown starts pushing guys back in the rotation the concern should be someone like Fox or Domas buying out on the ORGANIZATION. It's a miracle Fox is even still here TBH. They've done nothing but hire people that had no clue who or what Fox was since he was drafted.
This is somewhat of an odd leak. The “competitive offer” slant makes it sound like maybe Shams is hearing from the team, but I’m not sure this makes them look good. Whatever the source, I can’t say I love this being negotiated in the press.
At least the issue is annual value and not years, as I thought I saw reported elsewhere, as it seems like an easier gap to eventually bridge.
At least the issue is annual value and not years, as I thought I saw reported elsewhere, as it seems like an easier gap to eventually bridge.
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