Guess as to rotation.

[dude12]

The Kings were a historic offense last year. I expect the lineup to stay the same to start. There is no reason to change the starting lineup. Sac upgraded or will upgrade offensively with Keegan being able to create, Sasha off the bench playing with Domas, small ball 5 Lyles is better than Metu by quite a bit, defensive big 5 Len will be the guy right off the bat instead of trying Metu or Holmes. Edwards will get his shot as the 3 and D situational piece having him all year. Duarte will be a better defensive guard off the bench compared to TD and also a better fit apparently with Domas. Davion is the same defensively but is he takes a step forward with his shot and offensive game, this is also a gamechanger.
Colby is the deep small wing when we go 3 guards along with Huerter playing wing when we want straight up attacking with offense.

Mike Brown and his staff will have better pieces to create matchup problems or matchup defensively when those games call for it.

I don’t think there is a set number with the reserves as far as minutes and it’s a waste of time almost trying to figure out minutes per game. I see some of the bench guys getting more minutes depending on opposition. Kessler being an example of a need for a defensive wing. I think Brown will try to get away with outscoring opposing teams and using creative defensive schemes. It’s our strength last year and will continue to be our strength this year.

 

[sactowndog]

It might be logical to consider having HB come off the bench, but it won't happen. He's the most veteran player on the team, the only one with championship experience, just re-signed as the third highest paid player on the team, and has started every game he's played in for the last seven years.

If the team struggles I could see Brown experimenting with replacing him in the starting lineup, but again, I'd be shocked if he's not in the starting lineup for the first game next season.

yeah I hear you, though I think HB is best coming off the bench as a primary scoring option is his best role.

with HB coming off the bench you have bench minutes

Murray
Huerter
Barnes
Sabonis
Mitchell

Here he is the 3rd option and his 1v1 talents can be better utilized when Fox is off the bench. Running Murray off a double screen where Sabonis rolls and Barnes pops to 3 is also a pretty effective set.

 

[Makaveli]

Appreciate all the takes.

Here's my fantasy lineup - which will probably never happen:

Fox
Monk
Huerter
Keegan
Sasha

(there's more rebounding there than you think)

Scoring 50 in a quarter.



OR

Davion
Monk
Edwards
Sasha
Len

Scoring 40 in a quarter while holding the opposition to 20.

Are we trading sabonis?

 

[Kingz19]

Starting lineup the same as last season.

Monk, Davion, Duarte, Sasha, and Lyles as the every game backups. Duarte may move in and out as TD did, unless he can establish himself as a consistent offensive contributor. Which i see as likely considering how well he played with Domas in Indy. I know Duarte can be a big playmaker on defense creating turnovers but less sure about his on ball defense or sticking with guys off ball. If those are good he is sure to play a lot.

Edwards will likely still be the end of quarter defensive sub and occasional 15-20 minutes if the Kings are especially getting smoked by a wing that night. Summer league is summer league but he doesn’t look ready to be a 3 and D contributor. Much of his offensive contribution came on plays he wouldn’t be permitted to do with the big club.


Not seeing a pathway for Jones in the first year unless he outplays Duarte in training camp and preseason…or the Kings aren’t nearly as durable next season as they were last. Which is a possibility, especially in the backcourt.

I expect minutes distribution to remain mostly consistent to what it was when Metu was in the rotation..only with Sasha commanding a few minutes more per night…that is using the very most modest expectations of Sasha. My highest expectations would see him possibly playing Monk minutes. That would be at the expense of HB.

Lyles, the same as last season, Davion and Monk same. Davion and Huerter maybe less on some nights depending on Monk and Duarte’s performance in comparison.


Jones, Kessler, Len, 3rd point guard and Queta mostly being DNP’s

 

[Vinny Basketballerino]

what makes you think Sasha would be on the defensive team?

from the limited tape on him and @serbiangoat and others comments I have never seen defense as a strength. Yes he can shoot the **** out of the ball but he has Luka’s defensive chops.

Left him in there for offense.

 

[Vinny Basketballerino]

Are we trading sabonis?

Nah nah... I just went with pure firepower and three point shooting

(yes I get that Sabonis enables that - this was a fantasy lineup).

 

[Vinny Basketballerino]

The Kings were a historic offense last year. I expect the lineup to stay the same to start. There is no reason to change the starting lineup. Sac upgraded or will upgrade offensively with Keegan being able to create, Sasha off the bench playing with Domas, small ball 5 Lyles is better than Metu by quite a bit, defensive big 5 Len will be the guy right off the bat instead of trying Metu or Holmes. Edwards will get his shot as the 3 and D situational piece having him all year. Duarte will be a better defensive guard off the bench compared to TD and also a better fit apparently with Domas. Davion is the same defensively but is he takes a step forward with his shot and offensive game, this is also a gamechanger.
Colby is the deep small wing when we go 3 guards along with Huerter playing wing when we want straight up attacking with offense.

Mike Brown and his staff will have better pieces to create matchup problems or matchup defensively when those games call for it.

I don’t think there is a set number with the reserves as far as minutes and it’s a waste of time almost trying to figure out minutes per game. I see some of the bench guys getting more minutes depending on opposition. Kessler being an example of a need for a defensive wing. I think Brown will try to get away with outscoring opposing teams and using creative defensive schemes. It’s our strength last year and will continue to be our strength this year.

Best take I've read in a while, including mine!

 

[Vinny Basketballerino]

I think Barnes may be headed to the bench and be the 3/4 sub.

Not to start the season - no way. Not after signing a 50 whatever million dollar deal.

Though I think he would just as easily come off the bench if it was better for the team. I truly believe he just wants to win a championship. I see that happening maybe 40-50 games in.

 

[ockingsfan]

PF: Barnes 28 min / Sasha 20
SF: Murray 30 min / Duarte 18 / Edwards 6 (situational)
C: Domas 30 min / Lyles 18 / Len 6 (situational)
SG: Huerter 28 min / Monk 20 / Jones 6 (situational)
PG Fox 30 min / Mitchell 18

Kings will be a legit 10 deep with defensive switchability with Edwards, Len, Jones off the bench. The Kings really need to keep Fox and Domas closer to 31 min or less per game to save some gas for the playoffs.

I think the Kings will need to just go super nova and outscore their opponents most nights to win. They will need to crank up the defense in the playoffs, like they did last season.

 

[Vinny Basketballerino]

he might but it won’t be at the 3.

The three and four will be manned by Keegan and Sasha, interchangeably depending of defensive matchups and assignments. A front line of Domas, Keegan, and Sasha - all playing unconventionally - getting their defenders out of position, etc., is going to move the game of basketball forward in history. It will be a key piece of Monte's "three level attack". Paint, midrange, and long ball.

I'll bet anyone $20 right now that Mark or Katie drops the phrase "three level attack" in the first 30 games of the season.

Monte's cooking.

Barnes moves to the bench by the end of the year, playing a more conventional four, but providing steady vet leadership to the bench crew and in situations where we need it in the fourth quarter.

 

[SacTownKid]

map them out. The problem is where is Sasha going to play? He isn’t playing over Keegan. NFW he can guard the 3. Don’t think he can play small ball 5 over Lyles.

we have 2 impacted spots. What I would call Quad 2 and Quad 4 guys. Somebody isn’t getting the playing time you think because no one you listed is either long enough or quick enough to defend the 3.

definately not long enough: Davion, Fox, Monk
Not long enough generally: Huerter
Not quick enough generally: Barnes, Keegan
NFW quick enough: Sasha, Domas, Lyles.

Monte saying Davion could guard the 3 was Vlade level stupid.

PG: Fox (34), Davion (8), Monk (8)
SG: Huerter (28), Monk (16), Davion (4)
F1: Barnes (30), Sasha (10), Edwards or Duarte probably shifts (8)
F2: Keegan (32), Sasha (16)
C: Domas (32), Lyles (16)

There's no doubt that there's a minutes crunch but this will also probably be like last season where some nights certain guys don't play and players like Len, Duarte, or someone else take a spot.

 

[SacTownKid]

You need to accept they see Keegan at the 3.

The team basically sees every position at SG through PF as interchangeable and they've said as much and when you look at it that way the team does make some sense. Now where it doesn't make sense is that none of them outside of a smallish combo G and a 3rd/4th string non shooting SG/PF are your best defenders. This team just has F's and G's. The only true position players are the star PG and C.

 

[SacTownKid]

Surprised so many think Len won’t get the backup center minutes … so basically Mike Brown will make the same mistake back to back seasons? I think they need the rim protection & defense from that slot. I’m of the firm belief you never downsize “Center” when you are deep (especially when you’re not a good defensive team to begin with). You can mix/match other positions but have to be careful to do that with center. It would be different if Kings had dynamic defensive forwards but they don’t. Defense would suffer a lot if they commit to going small.

Dont change what’s not broken. Len excelled as the backup at the end of last season. Don’t agree he’s just for “big centers” either - he had the worst possible matchup in the playoffs with Warriors and still excelled & was a major plus in that series. Shouldn’t drop him. This will be the rotation when everyone’s healthy I think

pg - Fox 32, Mitchell 16
Sg - Huerter 22, Monk 26
Sf - Murray 30, Huerter 4, Barnes 14
Pf - Barnes - 10, Lyles 20, Sasha 18
C - Sabonis 32, Len 16

2nd half of season may cut it more.

duarte & Edwards will play when any 1 of the non-centers are injured. Surely someone will get hurt so they’ll get their minutes.

If Len gets those backup C minutes then something is amiss with whatever plan they had for Lyles. They could very well platoon those minutes like your breakdown and it may work, UNTIL they get to the playoffs of course. That's why Len was signed back most likely for need depth come playoff time. This is why playing a legit 10 man rotation is a problem long term. Just like the Kings last year in the playoffs, somebody is getting cut unless you have like a literal all star team level a depth. It's very likely that Monte built depth in anticipation of a potential star condensing trade at some point. Now, just like his cap space move this summer that fizzled it might not come to fruition much like his Beal trade attempt but he's giving himself options here.

 

[SacTownKid]

what makes you think Sasha would be on the defensive team?

from the limited tape on him and @serbiangoat and others comments I have never seen defense as a strength. Yes he can shoot the **** out of the ball but he has Luka’s defensive chops.

Monte didn't build his team for defense at least not on paper. That's clear. It is what it is and 1 or 2 role guys won't be changing that. This team will either be decent or terrible again but it will have to be their core rotational talent getting the job done. Until Monte has a legit 3 star core that he can then pick and choose 3 and D guys around it because they don't need the production it is what it is. Now, in the end Brown will likely choose his rotation around needs again. If that happens then Monte better be on top of it and star shuffling some pieces off his roster for more need fillers.

 

[The_Jamal]

If Len gets those backup C minutes then something is amiss with whatever plan they had for Lyles. They could very well platoon those minutes like your breakdown and it may work, UNTIL they get to the playoffs of course. That's why Len was signed back most likely for need depth come playoff time. This is why playing a legit 10 man rotation is a problem long term. Just like the Kings last year in the playoffs, somebody is getting cut unless you have like a literal all star team level a depth. It's very likely that Monte built depth in anticipation of a potential star condensing trade at some point. Now, just like his cap space move this summer that fizzled it might not come to fruition much like his Beal trade attempt but he's giving himself options here.

yeah, I'd be stunned if Len is in the rotation. Situationally, for sure, but unless Vezenkov can somehow actually back-up the 3, there's no room. And honestly, I think we view Lyles as an upgrade as well; him getting more time at the 5 is a massive win over what we were running there last season. Basically, think if we signed him from another team and knew he'd be slotted at the back-up 5. Same season, everything. We'd be stoked to finally have that hole plugged.

 

[Jones2006]

yeah, I'd be stunned if Len is in the rotation. Situationally, for sure, but unless Vezenkov can somehow actually back-up the 3, there's no room. And honestly, I think we view Lyles as an upgrade as well; him getting more time at the 5 is a massive win over what we were running there last season. Basically, think if we signed him from another team and knew he'd be slotted at the back-up 5. Same season, everything. We'd be stoked to finally have that hole plugged.

Yeah I must have watched a different season than you guys. Lyles a “upgrade” over Len? "Finally have that hole plugged"? Um Did you watch the end of season & playoffs when Len pretty much did plug that hole in? Defense / rim protection / general softness was an issue all year until Len was the primary reason it was shored up late in the season. Even in the playoffs the Kings bench was a major plus due to Len’s interior toughness down low, pick and roll play, screen setting, etc.

The idea a 6-9 Lyles will be tasked with manning the backup center spot for a team in desperate need of a big guy due to spotty perimeter defense is not something I understand much at all. It would very literally be making the same mistake back to back seasons of putting “versatility” over “rim protection / rebounding / defense” behind Sabonis. Len has already proved to be a plus behind Sabonis - don’t change what’s not broke.

 

[Vinny Basketballerino]

Yeag I must have watched a different season than you guys. Lyles a “upgrade” over Len? Did you watch the end of season & playoffs? Defense / rim protection / general softness was an issue all year until Len was the primary reason it was shored up late in the season. Even in the playoffs the Kings bench was a major plus due to Len’s interior toughness down low, pick and roll play, screen setting, etc.

The idea a 6-7 Lyles will be tasked with manning the backup center spot for a team in desperate need of a big guy due to spotty perimeter defense is not something I understand much at all. It would very literally be making the same mistake back to back seasons of putting “versatility” over “rim protection / rebounding / defense” behind Sabonis. Len has already proved to be a plus behind Sabonis - don’t change what’s not broke.

Len crushed it - would be very surprised if he didn't get regular minutes this season.

 

[sactowndog]

The three and four will be manned by Keegan and Sasha, interchangeably depending of defensive matchups and assignments. A front line of Domas, Keegan, and Sasha - all playing unconventionally - getting their defenders out of position, etc., is going to move the game of basketball forward in history. It will be a key piece of Monte's "three level attack". Paint, midrange, and long ball.

I'll bet anyone $20 right now that Mark or Katie drops that phrase in the first 30 games of the season.

Monte's cooking.

Barnes moves to the bench by the end of the year, playing a more conventional four, but providing steady vet leadership to the bench crew and in situations where we need it in the fourth quarter.

I’m happy to take a charity bet that no way Sasha plays the 3. Not quite sure how we verify who is the 3 versus the 4. I guess if you saw Lyles and Sasha on the court together you could call it that.

 

[sactowndog]

PG: Fox (34), Davion (8), Monk (8)
SG: Huerter (28), Monk (16), Davion (4)
F1: Barnes (30), Sasha (10), Edwards or Duarte probably shifts (8)
F2: Keegan (32), Sasha (16)
C: Domas (32), Lyles (16)

There's no doubt that there's a minutes crunch but this will also probably be like last season where some nights certain guys don't play and players like Len, Duarte, or someone else take a spot.

If Sasha and Keegan are both on the floor Keegan is playing 3

 

[sactowndog]

Yeah I must have watched a different season than you guys. Lyles a “upgrade” over Len? "Finally have that hole plugged"? Um Did you watch the end of season & playoffs when Len pretty much did plug that hole in? Defense / rim protection / general softness was an issue all year until Len was the primary reason it was shored up late in the season. Even in the playoffs the Kings bench was a major plus due to Len’s interior toughness down low, pick and roll play, screen setting, etc.

The idea a 6-9 Lyles will be tasked with manning the backup center spot for a team in desperate need of a big guy due to spotty perimeter defense is not something I understand much at all. It would very literally be making the same mistake back to back seasons of putting “versatility” over “rim protection / rebounding / defense” behind Sabonis. Len has already proved to be a plus behind Sabonis - don’t change what’s not broke.

Lyles allows you to play a more switchable defense and 5 out which Len and Sabonis can’t do. Given our group it clearly makes some sense.

 

[Jones2006]

Lyles allows you to play a more switchable defense and 5 out which Len and Sabonis can’t do. Given our group it clearly makes some sense.

I just think those 2 things are not worth losing rim protection, defense, rebounding, screen setting, pick & roll presence, etc. for a team that needs those things. I agree in spurts it could work, but I don't think it's sustainable. Plus, Len needs to see somewhat consistent minutes imo just to keep him in rhythm for when Sabonis is out. Would be hard to not play at all, then say be thrown in there to start to play 25+ minutes when Sabonis inevitably misses games. Much easier for a smaller guy like Duarte or Edwards to be "thrown in there" than for a 7-2 guy to stay in rhythm when not playing.

Regardless, they need to extend their bench to at least 10 guys. If they do that w/o Len in rotation, then basically Duarte or Edwards is the 10th guy and the Kings become small everywhere on the court. I don't think that's worth it when defense is their #1 weakness. Sacrificing size/defense at the most critical position where those 2 things matter is not worth the added benefit of a smaller guy.

Imma need you to elaborate though on "given our group it clearly makes some sense" - Are you alluding to what the team needs? Or do you feel the team is compelled to play Lyles & Sasha both big minutes? For the former don't see the sense in that. For the latter, I think people are exaggerating how much Lyles and Sasha make. Combined they just make $15 million - that's not much at all. Players making $7-$8 million can surely be slotted to play 15-20 minutes per game without issue. And they both can play that amount if Barnes plays 10-15 min at the 3' (and 10-15 at the 4'). I would even rather have Lyles & Sasha battle for the 20-25 min at the 4' and 1 of them sit, then sacrifice the defense Len provides at the 5'. It would be one thing if Len last year the 5' did NOT work but again - it DID work, so I don't understand the need to re-tinker the minutes behind Sabonis. Lyles is not a 5' man - his physicality, defense is a PLUS at the 4 but you put those at the 5' and he'll be overmatched.

 

[Insomniacal Fan]

yeah, I'd be stunned if Len is in the rotation. Situationally, for sure, but unless Vezenkov can somehow actually back-up the 3, there's no room. And honestly, I think we view Lyles as an upgrade as well; him getting more time at the 5 is a massive win over what we were running there last season. Basically, think if we signed him from another team and knew he'd be slotted at the back-up 5. Same season, everything. We'd be stoked to finally have that hole plugged.

If Lyles is a massive upgrade over what we had at the backup 5 last year, why wasn't he able to secure the position last year? He was available.

 

[The_Jamal]

Yes I get that. I just think those 2 things are not worth losing rim protection, defense, rebounding, screen setting, pick & roll presence, etc. for a team that needs those things. I agree in spurts it could work, but I don't think it's sustainable. Plus, Len needs to see somewhat consistent minutes imo just to keep him in rhythm for when Sabonis is out. Would be hard to not play at all, then say be thrown in there to start to play 25+ minutes when Sabonis inevitably misses games. Much easier for a smaller guy like Duarte or Edwards to be "thrown in there" than for a 7-2 guy to stay in rhythm when not playing.

Regardless, they need to extend their bench to at least 10 guys. If they do that w/o Len in rotation, then basically Duarte or Edwards is the 10th guy and the Kings become small everywhere on the court. I don't think that's worth it when defense is their #1 weakness. Sacrificing size/defense at the most critical position where those 2 things matter is not worth the added benefit of a smaller guy.

I already ate my crow on Len after not calling him an NBA player last season and him shoving that in my face, but he's just not in the same class of player as Lyles is. Lyles allows you 5-out floor spacing on offense while still being a good interior presence on the glass. Len had a good stretch at the end of the season, but there's a reason Brown went away from him in the 2 most important games of the year (6 and 7) when our backs were against the wall. He's a situational player and that's absolutely fine for an end of bench guy.

They didn't sign Lyles to 2/16 and Vezenkov to 3/20 for them to duke it out for back-up 4 minutes. The plan more than likely is for them to play together and have that Fox/Monk/???/Vezenkov/Lyles 2nd unit just absolutely steam-roll teams on offense. I'm betting that's going to be a super effective 4-man grouping this season.

 

[The_Jamal]

If Lyles is a massive upgrade over what we had at the backup 5 last year, why wasn't he able to secure the position last year? He was available.

Because we had 8 good players last year and Lyles was the only back-up 4 on the roster? And if you watched any of Lyles at the 5, he was extremely freaking good. Shut down Gobert in that Minny game where Domas fouled out. And him and Keegan at the 4/5 in game 6 defensively were the reason we won that game.

 

[Elektrik]

PG    Fox        34    Monk.       14    
SG    Huerter    28    Davion      10    Monk        10
SF    Keegan     32    Vezenkov    12    HB           4
PF    HB.        25    Lyles       15    Vezenkov     8
C     Domas      32    Len         16

I'm skeptical of the idea of Lyles as backup C

I was responding to

I have Sasha coming in off the bench, not starting

I do too. I think people may be expecting too much from Sacha at least through the first half of the season until he gets his feet wet and adjusted to the NBA game. I don’t feel he’ll be overly impactful initially. Hope I’m wrong.

 

[Vinny Basketballerino]

I’m happy to take a charity bet that no way Sasha plays the 3. Not quite sure how we verify who is the 3 versus the 4. I guess if you saw Lyles and Sasha on the court together you could call it that.

The bet offer was for the phrase "three level attack".

But your insistence that the Kings play traditional positions is rather quirksome. When we play a three or even four guard lineup, who's the PF??

 

[sactowndog]

The bet offer was for the phrase "three level attack".

But your insistence that the Kings play traditional positions is rather quirksome. When we play a three or even four guard lineup, who's the PF??

I’m not at all about playing traditional positions. I am about 1/2 the game is defense and Sasha has no chance of guarding an NBA 3.

The player he is most compared to is Bjelicia. The same people who bitched about Nemanja’s defense are also talking about Sasha at the 3. I was a huge fan of Nemanja…. Sasha will be a similar type player.

 

[The_Jamal]

I’m not at all about playing traditional positions. I am about 1/2 the game is defense and Sasha has no chance of guarding an NBA 3.

The player he is most compared to is Bjelicia. The same people who bitched about Nemanja’s defense are also talking about Sasha at the 3. I was a huge fan of Nemanja…. Sasha will be a similar type player.

I've only watched 2 Sasha games+highlights, but I think he's got more wiggle than Nemanja. Nemanja basically got phased out of being a 4 and had to go down to a 5 as modern ball started to take over. I'm pretty confident Sasha will be more than fine to handle the 4 athletically and physically in the NBA. Feels more like a Bojan type of build than Nemanja

 

[Vinny Basketballerino]

I’m not at all about playing traditional positions. I am about 1/2 the game is defense and Sasha has no chance of guarding an NBA 3.

The player he is most compared to is Bjelicia. The same people who bitched about Nemanja’s defense are also talking about Sasha at the 3. I was a huge fan of Nemanja…. Sasha will be a similar type player.

Sasha is way tougher than Nemenja. As far as what number he is on the court, the NBA has moved past that. It will depend on matchups.

 

[Insomniacal Fan]

Because we had 8 good players last year and Lyles was the only back-up 4 on the roster? And if you watched any of Lyles at the 5, he was extremely freaking good. Shut down Gobert in that Minny game where Domas fouled out. And him and Keegan at the 4/5 in game 6 defensively were the reason we won that game.

I managed to see a lot of games last season, it was a fun year! Trey proved himself a solid NBA player, but he played less than 37 minutes in the regular season without Metu or Sabonis ( not one of the top 20 lineups on https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAC/2023/lineups/ .) I think if I had limited resources as a coach, I wouldn't be sacrificing competence at the C for the sake of filling a gap at PF.

Game 6 was pretty wild, with all sorts of exotic lineups being dragged out. The gambit of benching Davion for TD's scoring even worked out for 1 game. But in Game 7 the Warriors grabbed 34% of the offensive boards. That's what I remember from that series.

Lyles is good all-around, but all that's necessary from a backup big is rebounding; everything else is a bonus.