What an abysmal offseason.
- Thread starter nikefutbolero
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The Warriors have been one of the most dominant teams in NBA history despite starting a 6’6” dude at center for the last decade. Length is very important and all that jazz blah blah blah but sometimes being good at basketball trumps being good at measurables.
Especially in regards to teams with offensive systems based around off-ball principles like the Kings or Warriors, defensive length can be neutralized when a team’s offense isn’t based entirely around iso-ing up every single possession.
Especially in regards to teams with offensive systems based around off-ball principles like the Kings or Warriors, defensive length can be neutralized when a team’s offense isn’t based entirely around iso-ing up every single possession.
I know the point you’re trying to make, but you’re not being totally accurate here.
The Warriors small “death lineup” was often used to close out games, but neither Draymond Green nor Andre Iguodala were starting games unless it was due to injury.
Early during their 10 year run they were starting Andrew Bogut with Festus Ezeli off the bench then later on it was Zaza Pachulia during the KD years and Kevon Looney since.
The Warriors small “death lineup” was often used to close out games, but neither Draymond Green nor Andre Iguodala were starting games unless it was due to injury.
Early during their 10 year run they were starting Andrew Bogut with Festus Ezeli off the bench then later on it was Zaza Pachulia during the KD years and Kevon Looney since.
not to mention Iguodala was of above average length and quickness with a 6’ 11” wingspan. As is Andrew Wiggins with a 7’ 0” wingspan. Durant has a monster 7’ 5” wingspan
the Warriors have rarely lacked that Quad 3 defensive stopper with above average length and quickness. If fact, in many years, they have multiple guys.
the Warriors have rarely lacked that Quad 3 defensive stopper with above average length and quickness. If fact, in many years, they have multiple guys.
Yeah, it's seems strange that after breaking a nearly two decade playoff drought and finally being a relevant team again, anyone would criticize the Kings for re-signing one of their two core players and the engine to their offense to a market value deal. What exactly was Hollinger expecting? To nickel and dime him to save a few million per year when the Kings were going to be an over-the-cap team unless they let him walk anyway?
so in terms of pathway to winning/competing…. I have been looking for championship team in this era that doesn’t have at least one guy in Quad 3 guy. To date I can find one.. there may be more and happy to be proven wrong….
Denver: Aaron Gordon
GSW: Wiggins
Milwaukee: multiple
Boston: Multiple
Toronto: Leonard
——————-
Miami: Martin 6’ 10 wingspan which is average
perhaps the delta is some of us are judging against different standards. By Championship standards it seems unlikely one can compete at that level without a quad 3 stopper.
we now have much less opportunity being capped out and no 24 pick to get that key guy..
Denver: Aaron Gordon
GSW: Wiggins
Milwaukee: multiple
Boston: Multiple
Toronto: Leonard
——————-
Miami: Martin 6’ 10 wingspan which is average
perhaps the delta is some of us are judging against different standards. By Championship standards it seems unlikely one can compete at that level without a quad 3 stopper.
- Kessler could be one
- Prosper could have been one
- We perhaps could have signed one
we now have much less opportunity being capped out and no 24 pick to get that key guy..
I'm going to give you the benefit that this is accurate and that we will need one of these extremely long defensive-minded wings to win a championship. (FWIW I don't fully disagree).
Now, lets take a look at this current team. Monster jump in wins in Brown's first year and coincidently Sabonis's first year. 18 win leap. Sorta unheard of. I'm not sure any of us expected that. I was figuring 40-42 wins.
Now, lets look at the roster from the season prior to the Sabonis trade.
9 of those guys are out of the league and Bagely, Holiday, Metu and maybe TD are barely hanging on. And I don't think Queta ever really makes it.
Now we have this
And some G league guys that are OK.
We got fairly lucky to jump to #4 last draft. Everyone here was clamoring to trade the pick down and get something extra of value. Myself included. That didn't happen, Monte drafted 6-8 Klay thompson who, BTW, is going to be an above average defender at the 3/4.
So here's my take. There are a handful of franchises that can attract top tier freee agents (Lakers, Clipper, Heat, NY sorta, Brooklyn, Suns sorta) thats it. There are another 8-10 or so teams that are middling and if they are good w good coaching guys wouldnt mind being there (Chciago, San Antonio, etc.) I think we are creeping into that middling range BTW.
We have mostly kept our powder dry. Sure, we traded this coming years pick for Heurter. We dumped this years to get Holmes off the books to trade for Duarte and sign Domas to an extension. Now, let think about that. Duarte was the 13 pick 2 years ago. Locking up Domas (which I know you don't agree with) signaled to the entire league that we are serious and we take care of our stars. We also got Colby Jones at 34 who was mocked as high as 24, for much less $$$ and I think he's gonna get some minutes this year. Also, we basically traded nothing for Sasha who is going to get some serious minutes next year.
Now, lastly, we hace the ability to package some players to grab this elusive larege wing you so defintively think we need. (again so do I) but, we were never getting him in FA. We were always going to have to draft or trade for him. We have trade assets (Barnes, Heurter, Davion, Duarte, Kessler, etc.)
The remake of this roster was never happening in 1-2 off seasons. Also, I don't count Monte's first year at all. He took over after the weird bubble year and had like a few weeks to make moves. This roster is not completed. Its in a vastly better place than it was even 15 months ago. It might even take a sligh step back this year. I'm ok with that. I do not like the PHX of the world who are championship or bust and in a couple years that team might be a gigantic dumpster fire with no picks and no assets.
Now, lets take a look at this current team. Monster jump in wins in Brown's first year and coincidently Sabonis's first year. 18 win leap. Sorta unheard of. I'm not sure any of us expected that. I was figuring 40-42 wins.
Now, lets look at the roster from the season prior to the Sabonis trade.
9 of those guys are out of the league and Bagely, Holiday, Metu and maybe TD are barely hanging on. And I don't think Queta ever really makes it.
Now we have this
And some G league guys that are OK.
We got fairly lucky to jump to #4 last draft. Everyone here was clamoring to trade the pick down and get something extra of value. Myself included. That didn't happen, Monte drafted 6-8 Klay thompson who, BTW, is going to be an above average defender at the 3/4.
So here's my take. There are a handful of franchises that can attract top tier freee agents (Lakers, Clipper, Heat, NY sorta, Brooklyn, Suns sorta) thats it. There are another 8-10 or so teams that are middling and if they are good w good coaching guys wouldnt mind being there (Chciago, San Antonio, etc.) I think we are creeping into that middling range BTW.
We have mostly kept our powder dry. Sure, we traded this coming years pick for Heurter. We dumped this years to get Holmes off the books to trade for Duarte and sign Domas to an extension. Now, let think about that. Duarte was the 13 pick 2 years ago. Locking up Domas (which I know you don't agree with) signaled to the entire league that we are serious and we take care of our stars. We also got Colby Jones at 34 who was mocked as high as 24, for much less $$$ and I think he's gonna get some minutes this year. Also, we basically traded nothing for Sasha who is going to get some serious minutes next year.
Now, lastly, we hace the ability to package some players to grab this elusive larege wing you so defintively think we need. (again so do I) but, we were never getting him in FA. We were always going to have to draft or trade for him. We have trade assets (Barnes, Heurter, Davion, Duarte, Kessler, etc.)
The remake of this roster was never happening in 1-2 off seasons. Also, I don't count Monte's first year at all. He took over after the weird bubble year and had like a few weeks to make moves. This roster is not completed. Its in a vastly better place than it was even 15 months ago. It might even take a sligh step back this year. I'm ok with that. I do not like the PHX of the world who are championship or bust and in a couple years that team might be a gigantic dumpster fire with no picks and no assets.
These long wings are important, I don’t think anyone would say otherwise. It’s not THE definitive piece needed though.
Having 2 stars, having 3 point shooters, having high IQ players, an offense that is free flowing and has 2 stars who can get theirs while surrounded by 3 point shooters is huge. Being able to play team D well enough. A couple of lock down defenders.
We have most of not all of these checked off
Having 2 stars, having 3 point shooters, having high IQ players, an offense that is free flowing and has 2 stars who can get theirs while surrounded by 3 point shooters is huge. Being able to play team D well enough. A couple of lock down defenders.
We have most of not all of these checked off
Good post. I know it's natural to always want more and as fans we want to see the team keep moving forward and improving. But it's also good to have some perspective. Last season may have been the most fun I've had as a Kings fan. The first year with Vlade/Webber/Williamson/Abdul-Wahad/Williams might be the only competition just in terms of entertainment, but I think I'll take last season because it came on the heels of so many years of disappointment and frustration.
The roster has been reshaped, the Kings made the playoffs, theys have a pretty clean capsheet, have no real wasted roster spots, and outside of the pick from the Huerter trade, have all their future draft capital.
It's a good reminder to enjoy the ride.
The roster has been reshaped, the Kings made the playoffs, theys have a pretty clean capsheet, have no real wasted roster spots, and outside of the pick from the Huerter trade, have all their future draft capital.
It's a good reminder to enjoy the ride.
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While yes wingspan helps with being a better defender it really doesnt matter if they dont have the the BBIQ to be in the right position. Wingspan is behind BBIQ and effort for playing defense.
Lets look at the wings/guards who made all defensive teams.
First team
Jrue 6'7'
Caruso 6'5.5
Jackson and Mobley were the forwards, neither is a wing.
Second team
White 6'7.5'
Anuby 7'2'
Brooks 6'6'
Green 7'1'
Now lets compare to Kings
Fox 6'6"
Mitchell 6'4.5"
Ellis 6'8.5"
Monk 6'6"
Barnes 6'11"
Lets look at the wings/guards who made all defensive teams.
First team
Jrue 6'7'
Caruso 6'5.5
Jackson and Mobley were the forwards, neither is a wing.
Second team
White 6'7.5'
Anuby 7'2'
Brooks 6'6'
Green 7'1'
Now lets compare to Kings
Fox 6'6"
Mitchell 6'4.5"
Ellis 6'8.5"
Monk 6'6"
Barnes 6'11"
Yeah, absolutely no one is debating that length is a valuable trait in a defender but if being 6’6”-6’10” with incredibly long arms was the most important characteristic in basketball the Raptors would have won the last two championships in a landslide and Boston would have blown the maggot fudging hell out of the Warriors in four games in their series. The fact still remains that actually being good at basketball is the most important skill of all and Monte has sorta spent the last couple of seasons finally accumulating players that are good at the sport the Kings are playing instead of making blind attempts at bringing in guys who potentially could be good at basketball. Will we eventually need another long defender to make an impact for us to take the next step as a team? Probably/Possibly. Could the guy already be on the roster? Possibly. Could we end up regretting not drafting future ten time All-Defensive team player and five time DPOY OMax “French Canadian Bill Russell” Prosper? Sure. Is that going to affect our chances this season or the next? Not really.
You seem very stuck on this 24 pick. What are the odds that Prosper is a difference maker this year or in his career for that matter? The answer is low. On top of that I think the odds that we took Prosper at 24 are slim to none. We liked Colby Jones. It seems so odd to be so focused on a theoretically late first round pick as the catalyst to take your team to the next level. One might even call it delusional. If we were purely speculating talent there is a much stronger argument to be made that Duarte will have a larger impact on this team than Prosper ever would have on the Kings or the Mavs.
a couple thoughts and I appreciate the thoughtful response.
re: keeping our powder dry….. we have essentially moved our first round pick in back to back years for essentially the same guy….
Huerter SG 6’7” wingspan
Duarte. SG 6’7” wingspan
Jones, SG. 6’8” wingspan.
I didn’t think it would work with Fox, Hali and Davion when I questioned the Davion pick. I also don’t see why, when you also have Ellis on a two way, you stack 4 like players at the same spot. Even if Jones or Duarte is any good, at best, they replace Huerter. It’s especially perplexing when you had Prosper for the taking at 24.
7’2” wingspan with 2nd fastest land agility drill
Now I could see opening up the cap space to get a free agent but you know you are going to have to overpay in Sac. So if that’s the plan, and you are passing on Prosper just do it. We did not. We still have the same hole.
Lastly, I am not opposed to extending Sabonis. I was opposed to extending him prior to filling the huge missing piece that almost every Championship team has on their roster. Maybe we will trade one of our stack of two guards to get that piece if we can. Or trade one of our stack of stretch 4’s: Murray, Barnes, Vezenkov, Lyles…. But just like with Hali, teams that have a quad 3 player (a rare combo) are going to demand Murray.
If we lose both Hali and Murray trying to fix an unbalanced roster I don’t think I will be the only one who is unhappy. We don’t have a Fox at Murray’s spot.
re: keeping our powder dry….. we have essentially moved our first round pick in back to back years for essentially the same guy….
Huerter SG 6’7” wingspan
Duarte. SG 6’7” wingspan
Jones, SG. 6’8” wingspan.
I didn’t think it would work with Fox, Hali and Davion when I questioned the Davion pick. I also don’t see why, when you also have Ellis on a two way, you stack 4 like players at the same spot. Even if Jones or Duarte is any good, at best, they replace Huerter. It’s especially perplexing when you had Prosper for the taking at 24.
7’2” wingspan with 2nd fastest land agility drill
Now I could see opening up the cap space to get a free agent but you know you are going to have to overpay in Sac. So if that’s the plan, and you are passing on Prosper just do it. We did not. We still have the same hole.
Lastly, I am not opposed to extending Sabonis. I was opposed to extending him prior to filling the huge missing piece that almost every Championship team has on their roster. Maybe we will trade one of our stack of two guards to get that piece if we can. Or trade one of our stack of stretch 4’s: Murray, Barnes, Vezenkov, Lyles…. But just like with Hali, teams that have a quad 3 player (a rare combo) are going to demand Murray.
If we lose both Hali and Murray trying to fix an unbalanced roster I don’t think I will be the only one who is unhappy. We don’t have a Fox at Murray’s spot.
I’m stuck on not filling that Quad 3 defender when we had a chance. Could have been either via free agency or draft.
like I said let’s say Jones is great. He isn’t long enough to be a 2,3,4 defender. At best he replaces Huerter and keeps Duarte nailed to the bench. More likely Jones doesn’t reach his potential because he has Huerter and Duarte in front of him. If you include Ellis: the replacement value of Jones over Huerter is not going to be that high.
like I said let’s say Jones is great. He isn’t long enough to be a 2,3,4 defender. At best he replaces Huerter and keeps Duarte nailed to the bench. More likely Jones doesn’t reach his potential because he has Huerter and Duarte in front of him. If you include Ellis: the replacement value of Jones over Huerter is not going to be that high.
Malachi Richardson had a 7 ft wingspan and an even faster lane agility drill than Prosper. Denzel Valentine was even quicker in that drill.
Rondae Hollis-Jefferson has a 7'2" wingspan and smashed Prosper in the Lane agility drill.
Good footspeed & lateral quickness along with length are great traits to have in basketball. They don't guarantee success.
And again, what do you think the odds are that Prosper is a better NBA player THIS season, than Kessler Edwards? Because if he isn't, where exactly would he get minutes from? There's 12-15 mpg that will be available for whoever backs up Keegan. Because I have to imagine Sasha and Trey are eating up all the backup PF minutes. Brown has played Kessler at the SG spot. I don't think he'd do that with OMax.
Rondae Hollis-Jefferson has a 7'2" wingspan and smashed Prosper in the Lane agility drill.
Good footspeed & lateral quickness along with length are great traits to have in basketball. They don't guarantee success.
And again, what do you think the odds are that Prosper is a better NBA player THIS season, than Kessler Edwards? Because if he isn't, where exactly would he get minutes from? There's 12-15 mpg that will be available for whoever backs up Keegan. Because I have to imagine Sasha and Trey are eating up all the backup PF minutes. Brown has played Kessler at the SG spot. I don't think he'd do that with OMax.
You know this is at odds with your previous post that we're already pointlessly stacking up too many 6'8" wingspan SGs, right?
Last season Hardy would have been in the GLeague because there were no minutes for him behind Huerter, Monk and Davis.
How would that situation be any different than having Huerter, Monk, Duarte, and Jones?
Last season Hardy would have been in the GLeague because there were no minutes for him behind Huerter, Monk and Davis.
How would that situation be any different than having Huerter, Monk, Duarte, and Jones?